Travel Technology - Canon EOS 20D

1) Does anyone own one? If so, I'd like some unbiased feedback.

2) Where is the best place to buy it?

3) Where have you seen the best price (not neccasarily the same place as item 2)?

Thanks

I have a 10D and a few L lenses and have test-driven the 20D - very nice. It has a more substantial feel than the Rebel XT, although the extra features are fairly advanced and most people could be very happy with the XT.

Check the Canon 20D forum on dpreview.com for the experts

See the other recent thread on digital camera purchase recommendations - http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=447034 - B&H, Adorama, buydig.com - I've had good luck with all of them.

There are a number of great review sites on the net ... one that I like is
http://dcresource.com

I have a 20D after selling my 10D to a friend. The camera is superb and I have no complaints. Took some very nice pics on my trip to Kauai 7 months ago. The link below also provides a good review of the camera.

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2004_reviews/20d.html

If you buy the camera I don't suggest buying the package that includes the 18-55 lens as this lens is one of Canon's lower quality lenses.

1) I bought mine about a month ago and have been incredibly impressed. Decided to switch from film, and after some in-depth investigations plumped for the 20D. I'd been using a Nikon F70 (think it's marketed in the US as the N70) for years, so double-kudos to Canon in my opinion in bringing out a product that could persuade me to switch systems. As others have already stated here, there are plenty of unbiased reviews on the 'net.

2) I'm assuming you want to buy in the US, so I can't really help.

3) In HK I paid HK$10,600 (US$ 1,350) for the body only. On the off chance you're in this part of the world, I'd not recommend buying in HK without talking to people out here who can steer you away from the dodgy places...

Have one, this is a great camera. I was really excited to start using all my canon USM lenses again, after 2-3 years of only using a G3, G5, etc.

If you are used to shooting with an SLR, then the learning curve is not that steep. But if you are used to using a simpler point and shoot digital camera then there is a nice little learning curve to work out.

Shooting with a digital SLR is not like a point and shoot only faster. Granted, this thing is FAST! Startup is instantaneous. Shot to shot, instant. The only delay is if using the internal flash, which works great but there is about an oh, .03 second delay between shots while it amps.

You have to work at being a better photographer with this camera. Holding the camera steady, making sure you have at least a 1/60 or preferable a 1/125-250 shutter speed. What does that mean, you have to work and jiggle with ISO speeds (easy to do on this camera and fast) to makes changes. Sometims shot to shot. Most times just set and forget.

You have to work at "stopping down" your lenses a bit more, or shooting in an aperature priority way. DSLR's are all about the ladies, I mean the LENSES. In order to get good exposure, you need fast lenses. BUT, fast lenses, big aperatures don't often deliver the best focus. Smaller aperatures often do. this is the stopping down. If you do that, you will get GREAT shots. Incredible resolution, always capture the action, etc.

It DOES take a little time, but it is fun learning it again - in a new way.

there is an AUTO setting, but not really a dummy setting. There is NO AUTO ISO, but you can sacrifice just a bit of image quality and set something like 200, or gasp 400.

I have found that DELL offers some of the best deals, I ended up getting it for 1087 after the 100$ rebate that runs till July 1, so GET IT NOW!!!

other great places to order are BHphotovideo, adorama, buydig can also be good, but YMMV.

As mentioned above, some GREAT sites like dpreview.com will yield more information than there is time to consume.

1) 3) In HK I paid HK$10,600 (US$ 1,350) for the body only. On the off chance you're in this part of the world, I'd not recommend buying in HK without talking to people out here who can steer you away from the dodgy places...

Was this considered a good price for HKG/Asia? Not sure what the psat month's price action has been, but today I can pick up the same camera WITH the kit lens for about US$1400 all-in at a reputable retailer in the USA (this is after the US$100 Canon rebate currently in place), and probably another US$100 less at one of the out-of-state mail-order shops.

My impression and experience is that HKG is a lousy place for electronics shopping these days, but I think it really is a function of one's negotiating tactics and patience. On the flip side, I find after-sales service to be pretty good.

I'm looking to buy a new digital camera and am not sure if I should investigate the shops in HKG as well as in the US.

Not sure what the psat month's price action has been, but today I can pick up the same camera WITH the kit lens for about US$1400 all-in at a reputable retailer in the USA (this is after the US$100 Canon rebate currently in place), and probably another US$100 less at one of the out-of-state mail-order shops..

You can get the body for $1179 and the 18-55 kit for $1236 including shipping, after rebate, at buydig right now. (Yes, I'm shopping too...)

1) Does anyone own one? If so, I'd like some unbiased feedback.

2) Where is the best place to buy it?

3) Where have you seen the best price (not neccasarily the same place as item 2)?

Thanks
Like the other poster, I have a 10D, which I love.

The BEST place for buying photographic gear is B&H Photo, www.bhphoto.com.

The are, bar none, the most honest, ethical outfit. I've bought tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear from them.

Was this considered a good price for HKG/Asia? Not sure what the psat month's price action has been, but today I can pick up the same camera WITH the kit lens for about US$1400 all-in at a reputable retailer in the USA (this is after the US$100 Canon rebate currently in place), and probably another US$100 less at one of the out-of-state mail-order shops.

My impression and experience is that HKG is a lousy place for electronics shopping these days, but I think it really is a function of one's negotiating tactics and patience. On the flip side, I find after-sales service to be pretty good.

I'm looking to buy a new digital camera and am not sure if I should investigate the shops in HKG as well as in the US.

I bought it here because I live here! It can be found cheaper in HK, but I prefer to pay slightly more to guarantee getting the real deal with a proper HK warranty. There are a lot of crooked outlets here, so I stick with my place on Stanley St.

I agree that HK is no longer the shopping paradise that it was during the '80s, even if the HK Tourist Authority still believes otherwise!

I'm interested in buying this camera as well. Can anyone tell me if this camera can output the TTL LCD image to another video device? It would be nice to see the image on a larger LCD while shooting.

I take a lot of still portraits so speed isn't always a concern.

I have a 20D and a 10D. I bought them at a Professional Wolfe/Ritz Store, locally because I know they will stand behind them, take them back if I didnt like them etc. I dont believe the prices were much different from the online prices. If somone in Dallas knows exactly what they want, I think Competitive Cameras might be a touch less expensive. I am not sure about their return policy.

The standard lens is pretty lame but then again its pretty cheap too. I use my D20 with other EF lenses.

The cameras, both of them, are amazing. Sturdy, fast and put out great photos.

It can output to a PC using the USB2 cable. Canon has a wireless device too but it is rather expensive. I've never seen one work but supposedly it can be used on the 20D that has been updated with appropriate firmware.

I'm interested in buying this camera as well. Can anyone tell me if this camera can output the TTL LCD image to another video device? It would be nice to see the image on a larger LCD while shooting.

I take a lot of still portraits so speed isn't always a concern.

The 10D/20D is a DSLR and as such has no LCD output while shooting since the sensor is exposed only when the lens aperture opens. The optical viewfinder is used with a mirror for through-the-lens viewing, just as with traditional film cameras. The LCD is used for post-shot viewing, histogram, statistics, etc.

Someone did recently release a device that clipped a camera over the viewfinder and displayed the image on an external screen, but that's a bit of a kludge.

I have a 10D and a few L lenses and have test-driven the 20D - very nice. It has a more substantial feel than the Rebel XT, although the extra features are fairly advanced and most people could be very happy with the XT.

I have a family friend who is a professional photographer (my dad is a photo pro too), often operating three crews doing different weddings. His camera of choice is the Rebel XT. It is a surprisingly good camera for the price.

Does anyone own one? If so, I'd like some unbiased feedback.

I don't think you should expect "unbiased" feedback from an owner. ;) If you want unbiased, as in balanced, I suggest you also check out the Nikon D70 because of its splendid optics.

I have the Canon 20D. It's the best camera I've ever owned. I agree that if you can afford it, avoid the kit lens. It's not a bad lens, but it doesn't do justice to the body. I have the 24-70L and the 70-200L IS, and the results have been spectacular. I should mention that my last film camera was a Hasselblad, so the 20D had a high standard to live up to. And it has.

Where is the best place to buy it?

B&H is not doubt the slickest and most prominent of the online retailers. However, in my experience, I have NOT found them to be honest, nor respectful of the customer. The best place to buy, if price is not the big factor, may be an established local camera store, where you can get immediate after-sale service and advice. There's probably a 20D enthusiast there.

Where have you seen the best price (not neccasarily the same place as item 2)?

There have been some price drops of late, so I suggest you do some online research. If you're price shopping, you should know that B&H carries list prices; it is not a discounter. A good balance between reliability and pricing can be found on Resellerratings.com (http://resellerratings.shopping.com/xPC-Canon_EOS_20D). Enter your zip code to get tax (if any) and shipping included in the price. That's a great feature, because shipping is often a scam used to make up for a lowball advertized price. (B&H does not lowball, but it does have a shipping scam.)

Finally, the best place to go on the Web for research is dpReview.com (http://dpreview.com/). The unbiased reviews are almost as detailed as intruction manuals, and the forums are as lively as those here at FlyerTalk.

After reading this NYT review (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9506E3DF173BF935A25755C0A9639C8B 63) as well as the preview on dpreview, I am thinking about getting the new Nikon D50. It is priced at about the same level as the Rebel XT at the moment (~US$900).

I haven't used an SLR in more than a decade (ever since my FM2 was damaged) but I am thinking about upgrading my current Canon Powershot. I don't think I need anything as fancy as the 20D. Has anyone else taken a look at the Nikon 50D. dpreview.com doesn't have an official recommendation on it yet. One concern from what I have read I have is that Nikon apparently includes very poor software (from 2002 that isn't fully compatible with Win XP Pro) with the camera, so I may have purchase their upgraded software for another $100 at some point.

One concern from what I have read I have is that Nikon apparently includes very poor software (from 2002 that isn't fully compatible with Win XP Pro) with the camera, so I may have purchase their upgraded software for another $100 at some point.

Don't let included software determine your choice. From my experience, software bundled with digicams is only adequate and never any great shakes. I don't know anyone on the boards I visit who use it. If you want to get serious with DSLR photography I suggest that you go Adobe Photoshop Elements, which you can pick up for less than $100. Or, if you don't contemplate eventually moving up to full Photoshop CS, at around $700 (about $150 for each upgrade), you might also consider Ulead PhotoImpact, another excellent mid-level image processing package. Again, don't decide based on the bundled software. If you like it, great, but if not, shelling out more for separate software is par for the course, so I'd just factor it into my new camera budget.

B&H is not doubt the slickest and most prominent of the online retailers. However, in my experience, I have NOT found them to be honest, nor respectful of the customer.

Can you share your experinces? In years of photography and hundreds of "where should I buy" threads on dpr and elsewhere you are the first I've heard to denigrate B&H.


If you're price shopping, you should know that B&H carries list prices; it is not a discounter.

You must have them confused with someone else. Their price is lower than 30 of the 49 listed on the site you provided. List on a 20D is $1499, B&H's current price is $1329. They also charge $16 for 3-day shipping, which I think is appropriate, unlike the $32 for 7-10 day and $61 for 3-day at 42th street.

There have been recent proce drops and I suspect the cluster of stores still at $1329 +/$5 will soon join the cluster at $1275.

If I had to buy today, I'd still go with buydig.com. Free shipping gets them within $2.50 of the lowest price listed and I bought 2 L lenses and a Rebel body during the last Canon rebate offer. I had no problems getting the rebates - they are an authorized dealer.

B&H is not doubt the slickest and most prominent of the online retailers. However, in my experience, I have NOT found them to be honest, nor respectful of the customer. The best place to buy, if price is not the big factor, may be an established local camera store, where you can get immediate after-sale service and advice. There's probably a 20D enthusiast there.
I have never heard anyone complain about B&H. If you go over to the photo newsgroups, you'll find that they are not only highly regarded, but, literally, in a class of their own when it comes to ethics and honesty. In my own experience, in years of buying many thousands of dollars of equipment, I have found them honest to a fault, and extremely helpful and courteous, whether buying mail order or in person.

f you're price shopping, you should know that B&H carries list prices; it is not a discounter.
That is absolutely untrue. B&H sells at a deep discount, and never list. Have you ever actually bought anything from them? It sounds not.

(B&H does not lowball, but it does have a shipping scam.)Oh, what nonsense. B&H charges what shipping costs -- it doesn't use shipping as a profit center. As I've said, I've bought many, many thousands of dollars of gear from them, over many, many years, the vast majority mail order, and never had a bad experience.

That is absolutely untrue. B&H sells at a deep discount, and never list. Have you ever actually bought anything from them? It sounds not.

Huh? B&H does NOT discount new models. I bought my last Powershot from them (had a gift certificate) and it wasn't discounted and am in the market for the new Nikon D50. A visit to the B&H website yields no discount to MSRP on the Nikon D50. Even Circuitcity.com has a better deal right now (5% discount). Of course, B&H will eventually get closer to the Street price as the model ages and other online vendors begin discounting.

As for how great B&H is, there is no question that they offer a great selection for the audio/video enthusiast, but it is not a good place to browse. If you do not know what you want, the salespeople are not very patient (even snooty) and would rather serve the next person waiting in line. And the B&M location is not exactly that convenient if you live in New York. If you don't, who cares, since you are getting it delivered and don't pay the sales tax.

Sorry you're upset because I "denigrate" B&H. Nevertheless, I stand by what I said. In fact, you can find plenty of complaints about B&H, if you bother to look. Furthermore, B&H uses a hired pitbull to trash anyone with the temerity to complain online.

The guy asked for opinions here. You stated yours, I stated mine. This is about a store, not My country 'tis of thee, so let's stop the bickering.

Sorry you're upset because I "denigrate" B&H. Nevertheless, I stand by what I said. In fact, you can find plenty of complaints about B&H, if you bother to look. Furthermore, B&H uses a hired pitbull to trash anyone with the temerity to complain online.

The guy asked for opinions here. You stated yours, I stated mine. This is about a store, not My country 'tis of thee, so let's stop the bickering.

All I asked for was your experience, and I provided some facts to allow others to make a decision. If you choose to think I'm upset or bickering, feel free.

Yes - "denigrate" - attack the character or reputation of; speak ill of - I think it is quite accurate and carefully chosen. Choosing to accuse them of using a "pitbull to trash anyone" when all I asked was what caused you to have this opinion shows you have some problem with them. Again I ask, what problems did you have?

Making accusations and then refusing to explain will probably not have much impact.

Huh? B&H does NOT discount new models. I bought my last Powershot from them (had a gift certificate) and it wasn't discounted and am in the market for the new Nikon D50. A visit to the B&H website yields no discount to MSRP on the Nikon D50. Even Circuitcity.com has a better deal right now (5% discount). Of course, B&H will eventually get closer to the Street price as the model ages and other online vendors begin discounting.
.


"MSRP" and "discount" have different meaning with different products. If you check prices on D50 kits on the resellerratings site provided (or elsewhere) almost everyone is at $897-$899, including B&H. If you can get it for $855 at Circuit City you should take it.

Perhaps better to say "competitive prices" than discount. It appears Nikon makes their MSRP closer to the actual street price (which is based on wholesale price) than other manufacturers. MSRP is basically meaningless.

Huh? B&H does NOT discount new models. I bought my last Powershot from them (had a gift certificate) and it wasn't discounted and am in the market for the new Nikon D50. A visit to the B&H website yields no discount to MSRP on the Nikon D50. Even Circuitcity.com has a better deal right now (5% discount). Of course, B&H will eventually get closer to the Street price as the model ages and other online vendors begin discounting.
I bought a Canon 10D and a VX2000, both new, both current and both discounted at B&H. I've never seen them price anything at list.

As for how great B&H is, there is no question that they offer a great selection for the audio/video enthusiast, but it is not a good place to browse. If you do not know what you want, the salespeople are not very patient (even snooty) and would rather serve the next person waiting in line.
Again, not my experience. I usually buy from them mail order, but when I'm in New York, I like to go by their store and browse. Last time, I bought a lens for my 10D. I told the salesman what I wanted. He asked about the kind of photography that I do. I told him, advanced amateur, for my own amusement, travel, etc. He recommended a less-expensive, lighter lens that would work just as well. He brought it out, let me play with it on my camera. I liked it and bought. And saved a couple of hundred dollars.

And the B&M location is not exactly that convenient if you live in New York. If you don't, who cares, since you are getting it delivered and don't pay the sales tax.
Its two blocks from Madison Square Garden. It's hard to get more convenient than that.

Sorry you're upset because I "denigrate" B&H. Nevertheless, I stand by what I said. In fact, you can find plenty of complaints about B&H, if you bother to look. Furthermore, B&H uses a hired pitbull to trash anyone with the temerity to complain online.

The guy asked for opinions here. You stated yours, I stated mine. This is about a store, not My country 'tis of thee, so let's stop the bickering.
Hey, I'm not upset. The problem is you posted information directly contrary to my own personal experience, as well as the experiences of, literally, dozens of videographers whom I know personally (I don't need to address their reputation).

I'm not a hired pitbull, I don't work for B&H, and have no connection with them beyond being a very satisfied customer.

I bought a Canon 10D and a VX2000, both new, both current and both discounted at B&H. I've never seen them price anything at list.

Then you didn't bother checking out the NEW camera (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=381586&is=REG&addedTroughType=search) I am looking at.

As I said earlier, B&H does NOT discount newly released models. Why would they?

In any case, with a little bit of searching, you can get a better deal elsewhere. And if the price were the same, as it usually is amongst this specialized group of retailers, I can think of at least two other locally-owned electronics/photo retailers in Manhattan that I would rather give the business to.

B&H, as do many (not all) of the camera stores sell at street prices. The retail price for the D50 is $779 while the normal street price is $750 which is what B&H is selling at. Seems many of the larger camera stores will sell at the normal street price until demand falls and start discounting them.

Then you didn't bother checking out the NEW camera (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=381586&is=REG&addedTroughType=search) I am looking at.

As I said earlier, B&H does NOT discount newly released models. Why would they?
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I've bought two, new, current cameras at B&H, both discounted below list.

In any case, with a little bit of searching, you can get a better deal elsewhere. And if the price were the same, as it usually is amongst this specialized group of retailers, I can think of at least two other locally-owned electronics/photo retailers in Manhattan that I would rather give the business to.You can find much lower prices on the net. You won't, however, be able to buy cameras for that price -- check out www.resellerratings.com for explanations of the scams. There are some lower priced legitimate dealers than B&H, but the price difference isn't that great.

What's your problem with B&H?

B&H, as do many (not all) of the camera stores sell at street prices. The retail price for the D50 is $900 while the normal street price is $750 which is what B&H is selling at. Seems many of the larger camera stores will sell at the normal street price until demand falls and start discounting them.

I think you are confusing the prices. Yes, B&H usually sells at the (lower) Street price. But discounting on newly released models takes time (at least a month). It doesn't happen immediately. And, when it does, B&H is rarely the Street price leader. The fact that you can buy the Canon 20D for less than the MSRP at B&H does not mean that B&H offers the best prices.

As for the camera I am looking at, the list price (MSRP) for the D50 body is $750 (the link I attached earlier). For the kit (with starter lens), the list price is $900. This is what everyone, including B&H, is more or less selling it at. The fact that Circuit City is selling a newly released model (until the end of today) for 5% less than MSRP is an anomaly (and a nice surprise). I would expect the Street price to be in the low $800s for the kit within the next two months. B&H may still be selling it at MSRP during this timeframe. This was certainly the case for my camera purchase there.

Generally speaking, you can get the best deals on prosumer/mass-market cameras at Dell Home, which does not charge shipping or sales tax to most localities and which offers many discounting opportunities, or at online retailers like buydig.

What's your problem with B&H?

Have I said anything negative about B&H?

I've already said they offered a great selection and discounted prices.

But, in my experience, they don't offer the biggest discounts, and I don't think their level of service justifies favoring them over other retailers that may offer even lower prices.

And, in the case of my previous camera purchase and my current purchase decision, B&H is not offering a discount to list. If price is the same, I can give you at least three reasons why I would go elsewhere locally or out of state, including but not limited to:

1) convenience
2) no sales tax with an out-of-state vendor
3) additional frequent flier miles or discount through a shopping portal

Have I said anything negative about B&H?

You said this:

"I can think of at least two other locally-owned electronics/photo retailers in Manhattan that I would rather give the business to."

I was wondering why.

1) Does anyone own one? If so, I'd like some unbiased feedback.

2) Where is the best place to buy it?

3) Where have you seen the best price (not necessarily the same place as item 2)?

Thanks

Camera is fantastic.