bmi diamond club - NO LOUNGE ACCESS with TINY fares for DC*G/DC*S

This is being dicussed in a couple of other threads at the moment. (The "fare codes" thread and the "moving business to others" one). I feel this change is atrociuos enough to deserve pride of place in it's own dedicated thread!

Anyways, so far:
Have just spoke to a DC agent who has confirmed the wost .. all tiny fares from november , no lounge access from gold members .

a very sad day for this airline
And tiny fares include everything below H i.e. : N, T, W, V, Q and H fares. It would seem BD have totally lost the plot. This does seem total suicide in my book. And as soon as this happens, I am done with DC totally. Still wondering though:

- Just how are they going to meet the *alliance lounge obligations to other *G's.

- Have Donnington Hall liased with the other owners and close partenrs of BD, namely LH/SK in regards to these changes?

- And any wagers on just how long will Cash and Miles survive?

:mad: :mad: :mad:

I still think this comment was uninformed speculation by the agent concerned - I can't see how BMI would deny lounge access in this way, as the lounges are hardly overrun as it is and BMI's operating costs are pretty much fixed on this front.

This whole change in service is being done in a hurry and BMI seem, as ever, to be making it all up as they go along. None of this should have been announced until all the details were in place. Then, and only then, should they have made an announcement before introducing the changes 3-6 months later.

Announcing with the speed they did, with no details worked out, smacks of panic (and a large hole in their coffers). It has confused passengers no end (and the BMI/baby co-branding will do so even more) and has really damaged their image IMHO.

As I've said before, if they touch Diamond Club in any significant way then I'm off to the opposition.

- And any wagers on just how long will Cash and Miles survive?

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Which would be the final nail in the coffin for my participation with BMI DC.

Having already flirted recently with BAs WT+ and the quite reasonable 25k (return) upgrade to Club World I won't need much more pursuasion to continue my journey to the dark side :rolleyes:

Unfortunate. Those cheap fares make for a nice getaway!

The part cash, part miles is certainly superb and would see me leave Diamond Club if that went.

I still think this comment was uninformed speculation by the agent concerned - I can't see how BMI would deny lounge access in this way, as the lounges are hardly overrun as it is and BMI's operating costs are pretty much fixed on this front.
I really hope you're right, House!

What I can't fathom is how LH/SK have let BD continue on this road to disaster. Atleast LH for sure should have a significant interest in the survival of BD as we know it. Or do they have no say whatsoever in any decisions Donnigton Hall comes up with?

I really hope you're right, House!

What I can't fathom is how LH/SK have let BD continue on this road to disaster. Atleast LH for sure should have a significant interest in the survival of BD as we know it. Or do they have no say whatsoever in any decisions Donnigton Hall comes up with?

My cynical side thinks that SMB is out to systematically destroy most of the business, spin off the profitable baby business (retaining a significant personal holding) and then hitting the ejector seat by selling what is left of BMI mainline to LH at the massively overpriced level they agreed to several years ago. My understanding is that LH would be forced to proceed because of the option agreement that is in place.

I stress I don't really believe this - but you do sometimes wonder!

I don't believe this. Isn't the point of having status one of the reasons why you are entitled to lounge access irrespective of the type of ticket you hold? I await for further news without trepidation :)

Which would be the final nail in the coffin for my participation with BMI DC.

Having already flirted recently with BAs WT+ and the quite reasonable 25k (return) upgrade to Club World I won't need much more pursuasion to continue my journey to the dark side :rolleyes:


If lounge access for BD *G holders travelling on cheap fares goes, then I'm off too. Have to say I would be quite sad leaving - have always admired the professionalism of the BMI staff, particularly the cabin crews, but to use a well worn phrase, it looks like 'lions being led by donkeys.'

(Message to lurker: Listen to your most loyal customers on this forum, before you do something monumentally stupid...')

Well, there's still some ambiguity as to what a 'tiny' fare actually, is, given the *TINY fare codes seem to vary according to origin airport (and that all the published ones seem to still be available as *OWBMI). But I don't think that in 2 years of pretty much weekly flying, I've travelled on a single T or N fare.

If the speculation is correct, and it's everything from H down... Then this is sheer idiocy. You will find me over on BA or KLM in the blink of an eyelid. Don't do this, bmi, really. I can stomach no sandwich on a 40 minute flight. I can stomach 3+3 seating, given I'm rarely up front. But take away the miles and the lounge access, and there's no reason to fly with you any more...

we all must do somthing to stop this !

Can all here write to Sir Michael Bishop and try to make him see the error of his ways before it is too late for BMI !

One thing that suggests to me that this may NOT be true is that you can use bmi lounges with DC status when flying on baby flights.

I flew EDI-BHX on Saturday and used the Diamond Club lounge as DC Gold. Obvioulsy there is no lounge in BHX but use of the lounge in Edinburgh was a factor in choosing bmiBaby over BA and flyBE.

I suppose only time will tell what the final outcome will be.

Can you imagine no longer chasing status? Only flying with the airline that offers best price/timings/service?

Stephen

How reliable is the source of the "NO Lounge Access" Info?.

Just that as the DC Club Call Centre has a lot of time on its hands today not being able to take account questions, and I asked them about this issue and after nearly 30 mins of checking with different people the supervisor on duty said they had no information on this and said it did not sound right to them?.

Richard

I really hope you're right, House!

What I can't fathom is how LH/SK have let BD continue on this road to disaster. Atleast LH for sure should have a significant interest in the survival of BD as we know it. Or do they have no say whatsoever in any decisions Donnigton Hall comes up with?
Are you absolutely sure this is true AJLondon? If it is, BD is run along the lines of Zimbabwe :mad: Lounge access and miles are the main reason why one chooses airline A over airline B, other things being roughly equal..

I'll start by saying I will be very surprised if they do deny their own Golds access to lounges, although with the other insane things they've done in the past I shouldn't be surprised. They surely wouldn't do this and allow other *A Golds access, and if they did that it may have implications for their membership of *A. I'll be completely baffled by what they are up to if they do.

I wonder what the actual long term plan is here, if they know what one is. What will be next, sell the LHR slots for stupid money for a quick earner and move in at LGW with their 'tiny' fares.

I think I'd better start finding out more about BA :eek: .

Well, a move to LGW would be welcome for me, I can get home from there in half an hour! But I can't see them moving there as bmi in any recognisable form, only as bmibaby :( Plus, what feeder traffic would they get - USAir, LOT and VS bucket 'n' spade division?

So... Who's up for an MR to EMA, and a FlyerTalk bmi board meet on the steps of Donnington Hall? Now, if only we knew a consumer affairs journalist to take with us... :)

For this to be true, BD would have to remove the Star Alliance Gold sign from all of its lounges... or get the builders in and physically reorganise the lounges so that the Diamond Clubs were gone, leaving only it's own, non-Star Alliance business lounges. I can't imagine this would be 1. desirable 2. physcially possible or 3. 'legal' under Star Alliance membership rules.

I suppose it could be that BD won't allow it's own Golds in (a la UA*G and domestic RCCs) but then we'd all just swap to another *A program in any case...those of us that haven't done so already ;)

I'm prepared for the worst but I just can't see how it could happen in practice.

:eek:

So... Who's up for an MR to EMA, and a FlyerTalk bmi board meet on the steps of Donnington Hall? Now, if only we knew a consumer affairs journalist to take with us... :)I'm up for that!

And surely we can convince a McJournalist to drag along. ;)

So... Who's up for an MR to EMA, and a FlyerTalk bmi board meet on the steps of Donnington Hall? Now, if only we knew a consumer affairs journalist to take with us... :)
:D

At the Hall, they'd all be out playing golf anyway :(

As I also mentioned in the earlier post, A lounge person at Heathrow Domestic has said the same thing to me. She wasnt new, as she was training someone else, so must have some seniority. :mad:

If BD are really planning on abusing their most loyal customers, well I'm off back to BA. :mad:

How can BD wait yet another week to announce the changes? That will be nearly six weeks from the original announcement. :mad:

As ever, BD need to clarify the situation quickly.

With BmiBaby adverts now propping up around Dublin I wonder if the Bmi brand will disapperar from the Irish market, or will they now decide to have a second brand, to completely confuse everyone. (oh, and add an additional marketing spend)... :confused:

I'd be one of four *BDG's that I know of that will be off if they dare touch miles + money, and lounge access.

The decisions they are making are complete and utter commercial suicide :mad:

I am definately up for a picket on the steps of the 'Hall' though, let me know when..!

Lets review the Bmi Logic on this...

Lounge access to high fare passengers on Bmi bmibaby flights, but not on bmibaby bmibaby high fares.

No lounge access to *G /BD*S on bmi bmibaby flights but access on bmibmi bmibaby flights for *G / BD*S


Since this makes as much sense as other enhancements recently, then it must be true.

For this to be true, BD would have to remove the Star Alliance Gold sign from all of its lounges... or get the builders in and physically reorganise the lounges so that the Diamond Clubs were gone, leaving only it's own, non-Star Alliance business lounges. I can't imagine this would be 1. desirable 2. physcially possible or 3. 'legal' under Star Alliance membership rules.Why ? They would have to change nothing, they will be just letting fewer people in - all full fare customers will still have access, plus in the Business Lounge the C pax on the destinations that still have one. PLUS all the other programme *A Golds - as I posted already, I'm guessing its going to be like UA and US : don't allow your own FFs in unless they buy a membership, but let in all other *A Gs as you have to under *A agreements/regulations. So the lounges will remain exactly the same, they will just be letting in far fewer of us.

If true, I too am walking (running, actually !)

I think the explanation is in the part of the post you haven't quoted.

No need to reply to ajamieson's latest post, cos the point I made in my last post has been confirmed... this is no longer a semi-rumour guys, but OFFICIALLY CONFIRMED FROM ON-HIGH BY BMI.

I just had the latest info that they have sent on this to their management read to me down the phone.

Its official - NO LOUNGE ACCESS, FOR SILVERS AND GOLDS, AND NO MILES AT ALL, ON ALL THE FARES DESIGNATED 'BABY'. This info says it in black and white.

He read me the codes that the sheet mentions, and it did not seem to be complete or make a huge lot of sense, but here is what he read me anyway -

C, D, G - Lounge access. (G ? A new code ? Or should it have been J ?)
Y, S - Lounge access.
H, N - NO Lounge access. (And I think he said T, and no doubt this will be a Baby Fare)

Bizarrely, no other fares were specifically specified, though as I say it did ALSO say that ALL 'Baby' fares will not earn miles or allow lounge access.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, if you are DC Silver or Gold, even if you are not, PHONE THEM UP... NOW. Yes right now, stop reading this post and call !

Even 200 different Gs a day for a whole week calling-up with their disgust will make little difference I'm sure, but is the only weapon we have, the power of our status and our feet.

I have told them that I am walking if they implement this, we all need to tell them so before they publish/finalise this, there may still be a small chance we can shock them into a re-think.

So, sorry jamespvg... Lounge agent tittle-tattle.

BD won't get away with denying access to hordes of other *G members. Besides, we already have access when flying any bmibaby fare.... but it was not gossip and they are gonna try and get away with it... the idiots. (Though as I have said, I'm sure other *A Gs will still have access on these fares - just like UA and US - as per *A regs.).

I'm out of here... who wants my Upgrade Vouchers ?!? :mad:

What about lounge access for other *A Gold's on 'BABY' tickets ?.

What about lounge access for other *A Gold's on 'BABY' tickets ?.See my edit (Though as I have said, I'm sure other *A Gs will still have access on these fares - just like UA and US - as per *A regs).

I really want to like bmi, but they don't make it easy. Giving out gold cards like candy and then making them entirely useless except on other carriers... I will probably still do enough long-haul on UA and SQ and others to maintain BD gold, but now there is not the slightest incentive to step on one of bmi's planes again.

Quite mad.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, if you are DC Silver or Gold, even if you are not, PHONE THEM UP... NOW. Yes right now, stop reading this post and call !

What's the best tel no. to register my outrage?

I spoke to DC a few minutes ago about an account matter and happened to mention to the agent the 'no lounge access with tiny fares rumor' and was told that 'that is not the case - gold and silver card holders will have access as normal'.

I spoke to DC a few minutes ago about an account matter and happened to mention to the agent the 'no lounge access with tiny fares rumor' and was told that 'that is not the case - gold and silver card holders will have access as normal'.

Good news. See, I knew bmi weren't thick. Nothing to worry about lounge access now.

Good news. See, I knew bmi weren't thick. Nothing to worry about lounge access now.


well I have just recived this email from DC all is definatly not good :( :mad:

"Thanks for your further communication.

It is true that the tiny fares will not be combinable and diamond club members will not be able to earn miles on these particular fare types. They will be stand alone, 'no frills' fares.

With regard to lounges, at present it is envisaged that silver and gold card holders can use the lounges up to November. However, if our diamond club members continually travel on tiny fares, then they may not be able to retain silver/gold card status. We are, however, currently reviewing details of paid for lounge access.

I am sorry that you do remain dissatisfied with the changes planed, although I feel there is little else I can add in this regard. We have undertaken signification research to define a proposition that we believe will be attractive and which will deliver an appropriate return for the company. We will be proceeding with the new business model and believe it is the way forward, however, should this not be the case, then of course we will have to look to redefine the product and move forward with another strategy.

On behalf of bmi, I do very much hope that we can continue to be of service to you in the future.

Yours sincerely******** office manager - customer relations

""...

They have SO lost the plot ! we must petion DC as not to impliment these changes or they WILL go ahead with this lunacy !

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

BMI/DC are in complete disarray !

The news has obviously not made in down to the call centres yet, though if you ask to speak to a manager and get them to look into it they will I suspect get back to you with the bad news. it is true as confirmed to psollitt (above.)

As for who to call / write to -

Juliet Hutchin
senior manager, loyalty
bmi
(Donnington Hall, Derby DE74 2SB)

PM me if you want her personal work e-mail address.

And guys, PLEASE don't be complacent and assume all will be OK, express your displeasure now and maybe they will indeed change their mind.

He read me the codes that the sheet mentions, and it did not seem to be complete or make a huge lot of sense, but here is what he read me anyway -

C, D, G - Lounge access. (G ? A new code ? Or should it have been J ?)
Y, S - Lounge access.
H, N - NO Lounge access. (And I think he said T, and no doubt this will be a Baby Fare)


I'm not trying to be difficult, and I'm sure that you'll clarify VERY QUICKLY IN LOUD CAPITAL LETTERS if I'm wrong, however--

We know that C, D, J, Y and S fares are 'business' and 'premium' fares, that will allow access in their own right. We know that H, T and N are 'baby' fares that won't.

This, however, doesn't necessarily change the Gold/Silver access rules. Could the diamond club agent have been confused?

Taken from the Ask diamond club section of the DC Website

1)question:
"What is the point of continuing to earn gold status with bmi?"

"answer:

...We are also reviewing the number of miles earned on our lowest fares. If you continue at gold status you will still keep your main benefit of world wide lounge access when travelling with Star Alliance carriers, you will also receive your upgrade vouchers which can be used on our longhaul services as well as our 4 core business routes Heathrow to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Belfast and Brussels."

2)question:

"Will diamond club benefits change once the new business model is launched?"

"answer:

The benefits of being a diamond club member will not be removed when the new business model is launched. The only changes diamond club members may see are changes in the miles earned for certain classes when travelling with bmi. As a diamond club member, you will earn miles on all our premium and standard bmi fares, and we will review the miles levels earned by fare type to ensure these remain competitive. We are also reviewing the number of miles earned on our lowest fares. Silver and gold members will still receive lounge access when travelling with bmi, the loyalty bonus plus many more diamond club benefits. Unfortunately gold members will see a change as they will no longer be able to use their diamond club upgrade vouchers for business class travel on our European and Domestic services apart from when travelling on our four core business routes Heathrow to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Belfast and Brussels. These vouchers will still be issued as a benefit as they can be used on the above routes as well as our longhaul services. gold members will also not receive a automatic upgrade to business class when redeeming miles on a Domestic or European service unless travelling on one of the four core business services. Our management team will be looking into reviewing the scheme and improving the current benefits on offer for gold and silver members, and once we have any changes finalised we will keep diamond club members informed."

3)question:

"Will you still be able to earn miles when travelling with bmi?"

"answer:

As a diamond club member, you will continue to earn miles on all our premium and standard bmi fares, and we will review the miles levels earned by fare type to ensure these remain competitive. We are also reviewing the number of miles earned on our lowest fares. We will keep you upto date once we have any further details and clarification on the exact product."
_________________________________

So is this another case of Diamond Club not being told by their management what's *actually* going on?

Also, if they get rid of milage earning on fares below H, is that going to apply on their four core business routes too? I had assumed those would be run as Non-LCC routes rather than LCC routes with a business product offering.

We will be proceeding with the new business model and believe it is the way forward, however, should this not be the case, then of course we will have to look to redefine the product and move forward with another strategy.

I think I've finally found a proper use for this: :rolleyes:

BMI/DC are in complete disarray !
As for who to call / write to -

Juliet Hutchin
senior manager, loyalty
bmi
(Donnington Hall, Derby DE74 2SB)
<snip>
And guys, PLEASE don't be complacent and assume all will be OK, express your displeasure now and maybe they will indeed change their mind.

Will try to write an appropriate letter with sufficient message/impact tonight then.
:mad: Feels like a complete smack in the face given that I've only just attained Silver the hard way (they didn't even send me a membership pack or acknowledgment). Will be the second letter to them in a week.

juliet.hutchin@flybmi.com; may the spam be with you :p

juliet.hutchin@flybmi.com; may the spam be with you :pThat is indeed the address... or I should say was ! It has just bounced back, even though I have many e-mails from her from that address, some quite recently. Is she being bombarded by e-mails relating to this issue I wonder, and has shut down/disabled the account ?!?

Gods, what are they on? As an elopee from the mess that is Flying Poo, who has been resting on her SEN laurels until they expire, since I don't fly enough to retain on LH, i had been deciding between switching to BA or BD, or possibly going for both.. but wont' bother with BD now. No point :( :mad:

forget spam ! just (hopefully ) thousands ( :rolleyes: ) of p*****ed off gold members emails with many true points in their constractive emails !
Let us all get behind this quickly in an organised way similar as dela, with save sky miles or with the recent SAS campagin ... WE HAVE TO ACT NOW AND ON MASS, AS TO STOP THESE CHANGES THIS IS THE ONLY WAY THAT SIR MICHAEL , NIGEL TURNER or IAN BLOOR WILL LISTEN AND ACT TO STOP THIS ! :mad:

come on you all ! lets get this started !

We will be proceeding with the new business model and believe it is the way forward, however, should this not be the case, then of course we will have to look to redefine the product and move forward with another strategy.

Speaking as someone who's just completed a placement in our PR dept., it's very interesting that that sort of phrase has gone on an external communication. I suspect not all of bmi have 'bought in' to this change in strategy...

Having already flirted recently with BAs WT+ and the quite reasonable 25k (return) upgrade to Club World I won't need much more pursuasion to continue my journey to the dark side :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

What's the deal with the 25,000 upgrade to Club World from a WT+ ticket? Are you talking about a transatlantic fare? what are the mechanics of the transaction - book and upgrade all in one step?

Thanks.

What's the deal with the 25,000 upgrade to Club World from a WT+ ticket? Are you talking about a transatlantic fare? what are the mechanics of the transaction - book and upgrade all in one step?

Thanks.

'Miles For Upgrades (MFU)

A third way to spend miles for flights is to pay and upgrade. This is usually referred to as a MFU (miles for upgrade). This can be an extremely good deal. Generally the best option will be to upgrade from WT+ to Club, but I’ll explain the process for any fare.

MFU’s can be from Economy to WT+; from WT+ to Club; and from Club to FIRST.

You can only upgrade from Economy to WT+ if you ticket is a Y B H fare. You can NOT upgrade from a cheapy fare.

Another extremely important caveat is that you can only upgrade a ticket that has been purchased directly from BA. If you are in North America, you can upgrade a ticket, but it must have been purchased from a “BA Preferred Travel Agent”.

Also, you can't upgrade only one segment (i.e. the return flight only). If you want to do an MFU, you must upgrade both segments. However, you can get round this, as BA will allow you to MFU (and charge half the miles) if only one segment is available for upgrade. Actually getting an agent to book this however, can be quite problematic. It may require escalation, or a PM to Lyndsay to sort out.

The good thing about MFU’s is that you’ll earn tier points and miles for the fare you PURCHASED i.e. the fare you are upgrading from.

You can only upgrade one class.

The cost in miles for an MFU is the base mileage multiplied by a certain amount:
Economy to WT+ 0.5x
WT+ to Club 0.5x
Economy to Club 1.0x*
Club to FIRST 1.0x

*Some of the 767’s don’t have WT+. If you’re on one of these flights, you can upgrade from Economy, straight to Club. On all other aircraft, you can only go from WT to WT+, or from WT+ to Club.

When it comes to changing MFU’s it can get complicated. If you MFU from a restricted ticket, then those restrictions still apply. If you MFU from a full fare, unrestricted ticket, then you LOSE that flexibility. The ticket will have the same rules as a normal award ticket i.e. after departure, no changes. Again, this is crap, but it’s the rules.

The Shareholders discount can not technically be combined with an MFU, however you are able to book it over the web.

MFU’s are extremely problematic when it comes to actually getting credit for the fare you paid. BA’s back office systems when it comes to this are a disgrace. MFU’s are an oddity, as the system needs to track two fare classes, the one you paid for, and the one you booked into. The problem is, the fare class you book into, is the same as for award tickets. So the system can incorrectly log it as an award ticket, and it comes up on the statement as earning no points or miles.

For example, a normal MFU from WT+ to Club, should appear on your statement as J/T (i.e. you sat in J but paid for T). Most of the time, it comes up as J/U instead. To correct this, you need to speak to someone at the service centre. This can take anywhere from two weeks to months to credit. Some people have had tens of phone calls, and numerous faxes before it was sorted. What’s crazy is that it actually takes about five minutes for them to do. This part of the executive club is a appalling, and I urge you to write to Sharon Callaghan (Manager of the Exec Club) whenever this happens

Oi Fraser! :D We are hurt and shattered enough here today as it is! Don't rub our noses in it and leave this BA-MFU tat in the BA forum!! :p ;)

juliet.hutchin@flybmi.com; may the spam be with you :p

Yes looks they spotted us:
Your message

To: juliet.hutchin@flybmi.com
Subject: Changes to Diamond Club
Sent: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:44:06 +0100

did not reach the following recipient(s):

Juliet Hutchin on Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:43:26 +0100
The recipient was unavailable to take delivery of the message
The MTS-ID of the original message is: c=gb;a= ;p=british
midland;l=BMIEXCHANGE0506230543MH2ZCYG8
MSEXCH:MSExchangeMTA:BMA:HDQ014-EXCH01

I'm new to this site so first of all...Hello.

I have also been trying to get hold of Juliet and it turns out she is now on maternity leave, so I guess this is why emails are bouncing back. They have suggested I write to diamond.club@flybmi.com with any comments I have regarding the changes.

Hopefully emails to this address will get through.

Hmmm :D

I have also been trying to get hold of Juliet and it turns out she is now on maternity leave, so I guess this is why emails are bouncing back

Are you sure they didn't say she'd had a nervous breakdown? :o

Andy

I'm new to this site so first of all...Hello.

LOL. Nice try. ;)

I'm new to this site so first of all...Hello.

I have also been trying to get hold of Juliet and it turns out she is now on maternity leave, so I guess this is why emails are bouncing back. They have suggested I write to diamond.club@flybmi.com with any comments I have regarding the changes.

Hopefully emails to this address will get through.
LOL :D

And as Brucie would say: Nice to see you Juliet, to see you nice. :D

Had first sighting of the new poster today, chirping at me as I got off the tube at Bond St:

"Tiny fares have arrived at Heathrow.

Now taking bookings to 20 European destinations"

and referring you to bmibaby.com

Like the Dublin ads, no mention of flybmi.com.

A baby with a megaphone. That's really what we want on a plane :mad:

Yes looks they spotted us:
Your message

To: juliet.hutchin@flybmi.com
Subject: Changes to Diamond Club
Sent: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:44:06 +0100

did not reach the following recipient(s):

Juliet Hutchin on Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:43:26 +0100
The recipient was unavailable to take delivery of the message

On maternity leave, eh ? - I hope someone was available to "take delivery" of her 'package' though ! ;)

Hello and welcome, J737. How interesting that you take on the name of a member of the bmibaby fleet rather than bmi. But I digress...

You seem to be a good source of information, and it would be especially good if you could keep us posted if there's any other such information you would happen to come across.

With such disarray, I know that I, for one, am not risking putting my miles in a bmi basket anywhere past this afternoon's AMS-LHR in C (where I will struggle to get a window/aisle seat in the 12 rows allocated for it).

Like the Dublin ads, no mention of flybmi.com.This debate is now happening on 4 Threads, very confusing, but in reply to this point I just posted this on the 'New fares take off from Heathrow' Thread -
This is starting to take shape, and looks even worse than has thus far been posted.

All this info - and the info on the NO LOUNGE and CONFIRMED Threads - leads me to believe that they may be introducing a system where if you are on a flexible or C ticket you are flying on bmi - i.e. on a *A carrier so you get miles and lounge access - but if you are flying on the lower fares you actually going to be flying on bmi baby, a non *A carrier and thus you have none of the rights. You could be on the SAME plane, but in effect be flying TWO different airlines (as if a codeshare, etc).

Can't get hold of my man at BD to confirm - they are in a panic over there !Could this really be what they are doing ? This would explain why all the new fares are designated Baby, and why all the new advertising are for bmibaby not bmi. i.e. bmi are not becoming an LCC, but are moving all of their non-flexible/non-C business TO their existing LCC (bmi baby).

I'm new to this site so first of all...Hello.

I have also been trying to get hold of Juliet and it turns out she is now on maternity leave, so I guess this is why emails are bouncing back. They have suggested I write to diamond.club@flybmi.com with any comments I have regarding the changes.

Hopefully emails to this address will get through.

Absolute c**p. When senior people go on maternity leave, either their mailbox is monitored or an "Out Of Office" autoreply is set up.

Normally, in the case of an address-switch (to prevent spam, etc), the account would become a variant. ie:

j.hutchin@flybmi.com
juliet.hutchin2@flybmi.com
juliet.hutchin@flybmi.com
jhutchin@flybmi.com
juliet_hutchin@flybmi.com
j_hutchin@flybmi.com
etc, etc.

Worth trying...

Moderator (who IS the site's moderator ?!?) - Could we possibly make this thread (on the lounge access issue) and/or the CONFIRMED: no miles on H,Q,V,W,T,N from October one (where most of the rest of the posts are going) a Sticky, so that we can keep debate on the subject of the changes etc etc to one or two Threads ? My suggestion would be to do so for both for now, and then when more info emerges and there are slightely less posts to keep one of them as the Sticky for all debates on the subject. Just an idea anyway.

If we suspend disbelief and assume for a minute that Ms Hutchin is on maternity leave, wouldn't it be fair to assume that somebody at Diamond Club is collating the flood of complaints in any case? Would emails sent to the normal Diamond Club address and marked for her attention be effective? Or should we aim for Nigel Turner's office?

Moderator (who IS the site's moderator ?!?)

We don't have a Moderator on this board. We've never needed one as we have usually behaved in a friendly, civil and unselfish manner, with nobody ever previously needing to 'shout' ;) .

We don't have a Moderator on this board. We've never needed one as we have usually behaved in a friendly, civil and unselfish manner, with nobody ever previously needing to 'shout' ;) .
Well said! :)

Actually, this reminds me of something I was going to post a couple of months ago.

When I got my gold pack this year, the letter wasn't from Juliet. It was from someone with a name similar to "Adeline Hampton" (I can't quite remember - I might be able to find it at home), who had a similar job title to Juliet's. Maybe she's the maternity cover... maybe she's additional... and maybe her email address follows the same formula... ;)

We don't have a Moderator on this board. We've never needed one as we have usually behaved in a friendly, civil and unselfish manner, with nobody ever previously needing to 'shout' ;) .Don't you think that by making this point via a snide remark it make you look the silly one ?!? ;) And were you honestly suggesting that this was the first ever handbags-at-10 paces on the Forum ?!? :rolleyes: You are a funny man ! :)

Someone here must have Moderator-type access - cos we have a Sticky, and someone must have made that Thread into one - and that is the point of a Moderator, to do the stuff 'normal' FTers can't, makes such decisions etc, and not just 'discipline' issues. So would that person kindly respond to the post ! Unless MAN Flyer or AJLondon have something sarcastic to add first of course ;) :D

And you don't think by that by making this point via a snide remark does not make you look the silly one ?!? ;) And were you honestly suggesting that this was the first ever handbags-at-10 paces on the Forum ?!? :rolleyes: You are a funny man ! :)

Someone here must have Moderator-type access - cos we have a Sticky, and someone must have made that Thread so - and that is the point of a Moderator, to do the stuff 'normal' FTers can't, and not just 'discipline' issues ! So would that person kindly respond to the post ! Unless MAN Flyer or AJLondon have something sarcastic to add first of course ;) :D

I will get the thread made sticky, but please lets keep it on track :) Every one here very upset at this news my self included, lets direct our angry feelings towards BMI and not each other :)

The current sticky was given its status by a member of Flyertalk staff after several requests by members of the forum . If you wish to ask for a new sticky to be made in an unmoderated forum , that is the approach to take.

However , I don't think that either this thread or the other one should be made a sticky . In my opinion, a sticky should contain information that is often asked for ("how-to-guides" , useful links , that kind of thing ) but rarely discussed . The sticky ensures that it is easy to see at the top of the forum so new users can find it easily . In short, I think a sticky should be a useful thread that doesn't receive many posts.

These two threads are currently (and , I suspect , for the foreseeable future ) very busy threads attracting many posts . As such , they will be at (or near ) the top of the board for the foreseeable future . I suppose there is an argument for combining the threads , although they do seem to cover different aspects of the programme (lounge access and miles-earning ) . But that is a different argument from stickiedom .

I think the attention and importance given to these changes will ensure that this and that other thread stay close to the top of the forum.

And I totally agree with Wingnut's logic about these threads not be relevant for stickiedom. Atleast not until there is an official announcement in the public domain made by bmi themselves.

Every one here very upset at this news my self included, lets direct our angry feelings towards BMI and not each other :)
^

Thinking about it Wingnut I think your correct, this thread will no doubt be at the top of the forum for a long time to come, what might be better is getting the sticky updated to included this new news, I will remove my request for it to be made a sticky.

Dino

Thinking about it Wingnut I think your correct, this thread will no doubt be at the top of the forum for a long time to come, what might be better is getting the sticky updated to included this new news, I will remove my request for it to be made a sticky.
Thanks Dino. ^ :)

Earlier today I put a bold red note at the top of the sticky saying that things are in a state of flux, although I left the rest of it in tact as a memorial... Naturally, I'll rewrite the whole thing when we have firm info.

Thanks Dino. ^ :)

I will add this though it was brought up in a moderator meeting about the strength of the wording in posts here and I can see if it doesn't calm down a bit, mod(s) could be assigned here.

So the future is in your hands :)

Earlier today I put a bold red note at the top of the sticky saying that things are in a state of flux, although I left the rest of it in tact as a memorial... Naturally, I'll rewrite the whole thing when we have firm info.

Good stuff Wingnut

Thanks guys, and ta for the sensible and constructive comments Dino, as ever, they are appreciated.

Many of the points made however have not actually addressed the main reason for why I was suggesting 'stickydom' (I like that ! :) ) - it was not that this single Thread in its own regard deserves to be a Sticky, but that this would help tidy things up as the chat is now happening on 4 forums (at least). There have already been a few 'This is confusing' posts, and a few duplicate chats cos someone writing on one Thread is not seeing what is going on on another at the same time.

Thus I thought if we kept it all to two Threads - one on specific issue (like lounge access, no miles) and another on the general debate, this might help. It can always be un-stickied later when things calm down, a practice that is frequent on other forums (that have Moderators ! ;) ) on FT.

As I said though its just a thought, if most think there is no point then that is more than good enough for me.

Yes, my elite membership-package I got some weeks ago was signed by Adeline Hampton (Diamond Club Manager).

So, how about writing to adeline.hampton@flybmi.com?

Yes, my elite membership-package I got some weeks ago was signed by Adeline Hampton (Diamond Club Manager).

So, how about writing to adeline.hampton@flybmi.com?
Surely she would not be on maternity leave as well, would she... :D ;)

AJ - they're generic letters. It's the decision makers you need to target, not those signing form letters. (As I explained in an earlier post - the "Diamond Club Manager" title is a generic one, used by many)

ajamieson is hopefully having a pretty key discussion tonight - let's see what the outcome is in the morning.

On maternity leave, eh ? - I hope someone was available to "take delivery" of her 'package' though ! ;)

Will they ask her to pay on the maternity award on account of it being a BMIBABY? :D :D :D :D

it being a BMIBABY? :D :D :D :D
LOL :D
Exactly what are you trying to insinuate about the luverly-wuverly staff of Donnigton Hall? :eek: ;)

Will they ask her to pay on the maternity award on account of it being a BMIBABY? :D :D :D :DOh god, what HAVE I started ?!? ;) :D (The Mum has access to the ward btw, but no guests !!!)

lol I can just envisage the scenario in Donnington Hall:

DC Management: Sir, the passengers are revolting
BD Management: Well we know we were going for a different passenger demographic, but surely they cant be that bad?????!!!


P

As there have been multiple discussions, please forgive me for spamming (but I'm going to do it anyway, subtly manipulating the message each time to make it look less bad).

The protest site discussions continue here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446153). Join in!

The website refers to Business Lounge access. Could this mean that holders of gold and silver cards on 'tiny' fares could still have access to DC lounges where available?

I checked the not-tiny tiny fares posted today for my Paris trip in October - much higher of course than I paid BD a month or so ago for the actual ticket.

Oh, yes. The not-very-tiny tiny fare of £34 LHR-NCE and the tiny fare of £4 for NCE-LHR for the dates I need are swamped by the dubious extras of £47.20, making £85.70 for one person.

I booked easyJet from a (for me) more convenient airport, LTN, with better flight times for a total of £79.26 - for TWO people :D . And the LTN Executive Lounge with our Priority Pass cards more than meets our needs.

Why would anybody expect me to pay more than twice the price to use BD instead of EZ with no miles and potentially no lounge? It beats me.

The tiny fares don't seem any cheaper than the web fares were. I've had a look at a couple for LHR-MME over weekends later this year and they are about £20 more return that I used earlier in the year. As the service will now be enhanced by offering no food and potentially no miles for more money, I've booked BA to NCL for less money than BD to MME and I'll get food and miles.

This does indeed seems to be the case. Although when I looked at LHR-AMS for later in the year some Tiny fares seemed to be from £4 to £26.

BD 101 GBP4.00 tiny 06:25 08:40
BD 103 GBP26.00 tiny 08:10 10:20
BD 105 GBP26.00 tiny 10:40 13:00
BD 107 GBP4.00 tiny 12:30 14:45
BD 109 GBP17.00 tiny 14:45 16:55
BD 111 GBP4.00 tiny 16:20 18:40
BD 113 GBP4.00 tiny 18:40 20:55
BD 115 GBP17.00 tiny 20:15 22:25

The not-very-tiny tiny fare of £34 LHR-NCE and the tiny fare of £4 for NCE-LHR for the dates I need are swamped by the dubious extras of £47.20, making £85.70 for one person.
From last night to this morning, the prices have been enhanced to £34 + £34, or £115.20 all in :D .

A 'what if' as at today for the EZ flights I booked comes to £39.20 all in.

Let me think: £230.40 or £78.40 for the two of us. Hmm, we might get seat numbers with BD. So on this comparison, that's £41.50 p.p. per sector for the seat number and a 'news'paper - no catering, no miles, plus the hassle of LHR. Er, no thanks.

They've lost this passenger.

Sorry - I'm confused by this thread.

The title of the thread states that there will be no lounge access for DC*S and DC*G, however the text from Ask diamond club, which jbfield quoted tells us this is not the case.

I've re-read the thread as I thought I was missing something obvious. I'm still confused.

Can anyone enlighten me?

Thanks


Taken from the Ask diamond club section of the DC Website

2)question:

"Will diamond club benefits change once the new business model is launched?"

"answer:

The benefits of being a diamond club member will not be removed when the new business model is launched. The only changes diamond club members may see are changes in the miles earned for certain classes when travelling with bmi. As a diamond club member, you will earn miles on all our premium and standard bmi fares, and we will review the miles levels earned by fare type to ensure these remain competitive. We are also reviewing the number of miles earned on our lowest fares. Silver and gold members will still receive lounge access when travelling with bmi, the loyalty bonus plus many more diamond club benefits. Unfortunately gold members will see a change as they will no longer be able to use their diamond club upgrade vouchers for business class travel on our European and Domestic services apart from when travelling on our four core business routes Heathrow to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Belfast and Brussels. These vouchers will still be issued as a benefit as they can be used on the above routes as well as our longhaul services. gold members will also not receive a automatic upgrade to business class when redeeming miles on a Domestic or European service unless travelling on one of the four core business services. Our management team will be looking into reviewing the scheme and improving the current benefits on offer for gold and silver members, and once we have any changes finalised we will keep diamond club members informed."

StarAllianceGold - a lot of the confusion (from my part at least) comes from the terminology. They're marketing these 'tiny' fares as bmibaby fares (even marketing the flights as bmibaby flights in some cases).

So, if you're flying on bmibaby fares... Are you flying with bmi? Remember, for benefits, a flight must be both marketed and operated by a Star Alliance partner, and bmibaby is not *A.

Having said that, there's been wavering in the past as to whether or not BD*S/G has a 'special case' for lounge access with WW. The answer has eventually been 'yes, if there's a bmi lounge, but we're not going 3rd party or letting you into a partner lounge'.

So, to me, the most hopeful information yet is that from ajamieson. But the information from BD still remains unclear.

So, if you're flying on bmibaby fares... Are you flying with bmi? Remember, for benefits, a flight must be both marketed and operated by a Star Alliance partner, and bmibaby is not *A.
.

Intresting point: there is an advert in todays Daily Mail for bmibaby with the headline ' tiny fares have arrived at Heathrow' and a strap line: ' now taking bookings to 20 European destinations'

So who is offereing the service baby or BD?

From last night to this morning, the prices have been enhanced to £34 + £34, or £115.20 all in :D .

A 'what if' as at today for the EZ flights I booked comes to £39.20 all in.

Let me think: £230.40 or £78.40 for the two of us. Hmm, we might get seat numbers with BD. So on this comparison, that's £41.50 p.p. per sector for the seat number and a 'news'paper - no catering, no miles, plus the hassle of LHR. Er, no thanks.

They've lost this passenger.

Hi Roger,
I'm sure you've probably already done so, but if not can I please ask that you write to Diamond Club (Juliet) to express this logic together with the evidence that they've lost another passenger. The more people write to them with actual evidence of the flawed business stragey the greater the impact.

I think additionally a sustained effort over a long period of time needs to be acheived as well, e.g. with people following up their initial letters of complaint with evidence of tickets purchased for other carriers so that "SMB's weathering the storm" seems more never ending than otherwise and aren't assumed to be empty threats.

Sorry - I'm confused by this thread... Can anyone enlighten me?Don't worry mate, we all are !

What we think might be going on is what stut says, though as he also said there is no public announcement yet, though it should be added that more than one of us have heard it from bmi sources or in e-mail responses from DC [which is how this Thread started of course], one FTer being sent a reply that said it could confirm that there would be no lounge access on the Baby/Tiny fares "from November". This is discussed in detail in the OTHER Thread where this is being discussed, 'CONFIRMED: NO MILES...' - my posts from there explaining what might be going on are here -
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4226170&postcount=88 and http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4228156&postcount=104.

As it says in the first of these :

"what it looks like is happening is that they will be getting around all this [*A rules/rights] by establishing a two carrier framework where when you fly on the lower fares you won't, for all intents and purposes, be flying bmi but their subsiduary bmibaby.

Its actually written in black and white in the press release... "bmibaby 'tiny' fares will be offered on all bmi short-haul flights" - these will in other words no longer be bmi fares/services. They will be bmibaby fares/services, that happen to be flown on their subsid.'s (bmi's) planes, as part of a cross-group strategy.

This is added to by the bit where it says "Fares starting from just £25 one-way, inclusive of taxes, are on sale today at bmibaby.com as part of the bmi group's development of modular travel". They are no longer two seperate operations, but fares will be across the group, and these fares/services will be provided by the part of the group that is not a *A member. This way they break no *A rules, and... they will by no means be the first carrier to do this".

Please note that the bit you highlighted from the other post - Silver and gold members will still receive lounge access when travelling with bmi, the loyalty bonus plus many more diamond club benefits - says "when travelling with bmi", and then says will still receive "loyalty bonus" - how can you get a loyalty bonus on a flight that earns '0' miles ?!? You can't of course, and you may not be getting miles cos the fares may not be considered from August onwards as "travelling on bmi" but on bmibaby.

But we have also heard that our (and others') reaction to the changes has amazed BMI, so we HOPE they will realise taking away lounge access is one step too far. No miles on the fares some would have accepted, but also taking away lounge access is declaring war on your FFs. So hopefully they are re-examining this policy right now, which is why it is so important they know how many people will move if they introduce the changes, which may explain why it has not, yet, been formally announced. I'm not holding my breath however. :rolleyes:

Intresting point: there is an advert in todays Daily Mail for bmibaby with the headline ' tiny fares have arrived at Heathrow' and a strap line: ' now taking bookings to 20 European destinations'

So who is offereing the service baby or BD?
I tried my dummy booking LHR-NCE at bmibaby. A message appeared 'The flights between London Heathrow and Nice ... are operated by bmi and will be processed via flybmi.com' with a link to click through to flybmi.com.

In this instance, the flights are operated by bmi, in bmi's own words ... not that that makes anything clear in present circumstances :( .

Hi Roger,
I'm sure you've probably already done so, but if not can I please ask that you write to Diamond Club (Juliet) to express this logic together with the evidence that they've lost another passenger.Sure ;) .

BD has updated their 'airport information' section. I present EDI as an example (http://www.flybmi.com/bmi/en-gb/travelinformation/attheairport/loungefacilities.aspx?airport=EDI#info):


lounges
diamond club lounge for use by diamond club gold and silver card members and Star Alliance gold card members - one guest permitted.

Business lounge for use by diamond club gold and silver card members, Star Alliance gold card and bmi passengers travelling on a business ticket or full fare (premium from 01 August) economy ticket (Y). diamond club gold and silver card members and Star Alliance gold card members are allowed one guest in the lounges.

Silver and gold diamond club members travelling on bmibaby services can use the diamond club and business lounge, one guest permitted. gold and silver members travelling on tiny fares from 01 August to 01 November 05 also have access.

self check-in
If you are travelling with hold luggage or hand baggage save time by using bmi self check-in. Machines are located opposite bmi check-in desks. Self check-in will close 40 mins prior to flight departure. From 01 August all passengers travelling on standard and tiny fares must use self check-in.


Now bmi has terminally shoddy wording on its site, but I surmise the following from this change:


BD*G and BD*S members travelling on bmi-operated tiny fares will no longer have lounge access after 1st November.
BD*G and BD*S members travelling on bmibaby-operated flights will receive lounge access.
*A Gold customers will continue to receive lounge access on all bmi fares, though not bmibaby (presumably as per *A agreements).
The removal of priority check-in for BD*G and BD*S is also implied since all tiny and standard passengers are required to use the machines. However, *A Gold passengers presumably still must be able to use a desk, but this is not directly mentioned.


On a slightly different point, £165 return to NCE is not a tiny fare. I'm flying Club Europe for £200. They're losing me...

Oh dear, it's all coming true...

So, our only ray of hope left is that the lower OWBMI fares aren't classified as 'tiny'.

If they are... Well, it's BA silver ex-LGW or FB plat ex-LCY for me. Decisions, decisions... That, and where to fly to with the points from burn miles immediately.

From the sublime to the ridiculous ! That press release is a mess, and totally contradictory.

The first of your assessments seems easy - BD*G and BD*S members travelling on bmi-operated tiny fares will no longer have lounge access after 1st November.Absolutely, not sure how it can be read any other way. But how typical of BD though - they don't dare to even write it in black and white - cowards. :mad:

So the info on this Thread, in the NEW FARE CODES Thread and from early on in the CONFIRMED... Thread has, sadly, not been wild speculation or tittle-tattle but accurate. One of the first posts on this from psollitt said "Have just spoke to a DC agent .. no lounge access for gold members.. from november" . Exactly what they have now announced.

HOWEVER, it then gets mad ! From what you have posted from BD ("Silver and gold diamond club members travelling on bmibaby services can use the diamond club and business lounge... gold and silver members travelling on tiny fares from 01 August to 01 November 05 also have access") you surmise this - BD*G and BD*S members travelling on bmibaby-operated flights will receive lounge access. As absurd as this would be (access on bmibaby but not on bmi [could you imagine ?!?]) at first I was inclined to agree with you... but looking at it again I think it needs to all be read together - i.e. fly on bmibaby or on Tiny fares until November 1 BD S and Gs you get lounge access, but afterwards you don't. (No miles from August 1, but lounge access at least until Nov. 1 - giving them time to change their minds if we revolt between now and then !). But hold on, it says "also"... OK, have changed my mind, I have no idea what it is talking about. :confused: How do the rest of you read it ?!?

And then... *A Gold customers will continue to receive lounge access on all bmi fares, though not bmibaby (presumably as per *A agreements).Where does it say that ?!? It says, access when specifically "travelling on a business ticket or full fare (premium from 01 August) economy ticket (Y)". Its not implying, surely, that *A Gs will get DC Lounge Access on Tiny fares/bmibaby but NOT to the Business Lounge is it ?!? Surely not, that would make no sense at all. :confused:

Maybe the answer is that certain assumptions are being made about what 'flying' on bmi / bmibabi means - I still think that when you fly on Tiny fares from Aug you will ALWAYS (officially) be flying bmibaby not bmi - not a *A carrier, so no *A rights. (Or maybe its gonna be always BMI and never bmibaby ?!? Damn, I'm SOOooo confused after your post / that press release ;) !).

The removal of priority check-in for BD*G and BD*S is also implied since all tiny and standard passengers are required to use the machines.Yes. Discussed in one of the other Threads.

They're losing me...How many times has THAT been posted here in the last week ! It's a total mess, and shows to me that BD/DC have not got a clue what the final policy is gonna be (or at least that the people putting the policy into print don't understand it one bit).

Reading through the last few posts, do I detect yet another "improvement"...? :td:

Currently, "desks close 30 minutes before departure" but after August 1st if you're on a standard or tiny fare "for speed and convenience self check-in machines are available at most UK airports, these close 40 minutes prior to departure"

So, for those travelling on standard or tiny fares, the minimum checkin time has just increased! :(

Andy

PS; I flew UA to LHR-SFO today - I think I should have joined MP rather than put the miles on DC! :o

How do the rest of you read it ?!?

Not sure the best way for me to present this, but I'll try to do a better job than bmi have done on their website...

The way I read it:

When Flying on bmibaby (WW flight numbers):

Diamond Club Gold Members:

Access to Diamond Club Lounges (one guest permitted)
Access to Business Lounges (one guest permitted)

Diamond Club Silver Members:

Access to Diamond Club Lounges (one guest permitted)
Access to Business Lounges (one guest permitted)

StarAlliance Gold Members:

No Access to Lounges

Passengers without Status:

No Access to Lounges

When Flying on BMI Operated Flights (i.e. those without the WW flight numbers):
*Standard Fare Ticket and Above (i.e. non-tiny fares)

Diamond Club Gold Members:

Access to Diamond Club Lounges (one guest permitted)
Access to Business Lounges (one guest permitted)

Diamond Club Silver Members:

Access to Diamond Club Lounges (one guest permitted)
Access to Business Lounges (one guest permitted)

StarAlliance Gold Members:

Access to Diamond Club Lounges (one guest permitted)
Access to Business Lounges (one guest permitted)

Passengers without Status:

NO Access to Diamond Club Lounges
Access to Business Lounges only when either :
Business Ticket,
Full Fare Econcomy Ticket (Y)
or Premium Economy Ticket (Y).

Noting that Premium Economy tickets are the new name for Full Fare Economy (Y) from the 1st August 2005.

When Flying on BMI Operated Flights (i.e. those without the WW flight numbers):
*Tiny Fare Tickets (i.e. xBABY tickets)

Diamond Club Gold Members:

Access to Diamond Club Lounges (no guests) until 1st November 2005 only
Access to Business Lounges (no guests) until 1st November 2005 only

Diamond Club Silver Members:

Access to Diamond Club Lounges (no guests) until 1st November 2005 only
Access to Business Lounges (no guests) until 1st November 2005 only

StarAlliance Gold Members:

NO Access to Lounges

Passengers without Status:

NO Access to Lounges
______________________

Children are NOT allowed in Diamond Club Lounges
Children are allowed in Business Lounges
Guests as detailed above are only allowed entry when travelling on the same flight AND when the lounges are not full.

Above is for Short Haul routes.
Lounge access for Long Haul passengers have some variations.
__________________________________________________ ___

Addtionally, I can't speak for EDI as I've never been there, but the minimum check-in times for LHR don't seem to have changed.

...Those are my interpretations anyway...until bmi change it all again that is.

I hope that's helpful!

the minimum check-in times for LHR don't seem to have changed

Quote from flybmi.com, LHR "minimum check-in... minimum check-in at desk in terminal, and at self check-in machines - 30 minutes... Minimum check-in at departure gate; 15 minutes for domestic flights; 20 minutes for international flights - with hand baggage only and paper ticket."

Seems to me that:

a. If you're on TINY or standard fares and have to use the self-checkin machines, you're NOT going to be able to do a 15/20 minute checkin at the gate any more.

b. Seeing as the generic checkin information says self-service machines close 40 minutes before departure, this is at variance with the LHR 30 minutes.

Andy

Not sure the best way for me to present this, but I'll try to do a better job than bmi have done on their website...

The way I read it...Thanks for that jbfield, certainly clearer than the bmi press release ! What you wrote is pretty much what jamespvg thought it meant too.

But are we really to believe that in the new bmi world DC Silvers and Golds will be getting access lounge access on all bmibaby flights (the non-*A member, that has no FF programme), but that neither they nor other *A Golds will get lounge access on many bmi (*A member, with the DC FF prog.) fares ?!?

Has the world gone mad ?!? Its about to be July the 1st isn't it, not April the 1st ! This SURELY cannot be right. (The later part WOULD break *A rules, for e.g.).

I'm gonna phone DC and ask !

With all this potential confusion from BMI, BA's program looks better all the time. Are * Golds better off avoiding BMI in case BMI sells us BMI fares but then has those flights operated under the BMI-baby brand?

This brand-within-a-brand concept seems to be nothing more than marketing shennanigans to toy with customers until they get frustrated to the point of shopping around elsewhere and are comforted in the knowledge that certain brands are not necessarily worth much.

If BMI-baby is a truly separate and distinct enterprise and not just some cheap attempt at establishing a corporate veil then BMI should have no problem with others buying the website URLs for a bunch of other BMI knock-offs. Why do I suspect that would not necessarily be the case?!?!? :D

When such changes start, the going is generally not good.

Can I say I differ somewhat on the interpretation of lounge access that jamespvg put forward?

I completely agree with him on the bmibaby, and bmi standard operated fares. However, for tiny fares for *G, for me it depends if they are operated by bmibaby or bmi. If Bmibaby, no access.. if bmi, then access (as per clause 2, where *G is a seperate subset from bmi passengers on those ticket types). The only exclusion that seems to be in there is for bmibaby. The comment in there about tiny fares for DC G +S is so throwaway, I'm not sure it can be read as a comment for *G, it seems more of a clarification wrt to DC members from the previous sentence - but the fact they have clarified it now leaves it more :confused: than ever what tiny fares will be operated by...

But shoddily worded - and I'm sure other people will and have read other interpretations into it :(

Part way through the period when this whole business strategy review was taking place, I was told by someone who should know that the airline wanted to become "the low fares airline at LHR" or something like that - but which airline??? ;)

I think what we are seeing here is an implementation of that strategy, albeit that they are scared to death to walk away from the true high-yield fares that there is still a limited market for, and that they're also scared to go the whole hog because that will loose them the Star Alliance integration and traffic. They need to keep the lounges and the desks for the few premium passengers and Star customers on bmi fares, but for the rest lounges etc mare just an overhead, and stopping us using them will ultimately reduce lounge usage and allow them to reduce the size of the lounges or shut them down and contract out the lounge use to another company (e.g. Serviceair). In fact, it wouldn't even surprise me if the routes where business class are to be retained (maybe except BRU) are actually those where they get most premium connecting traffic from/to long haul, rather than those where there's a geniune demand for point-to-point business class service.

Lets face it - if we only pay really low fares and only ever travel on bmi, we're hardly likely to make/retain gold anyway, so under the new model those sorts of golds will go away soon. And so who cares about us making a fuss if we fall into that category and nolonger get lounge access - probably not bmi!

Or maybe we make gold through a few low fares on bmi and the rest of the annual mileage on other Star Alliance partners (e.g. long haul) - again, bmi only see the few low fares end of the deal, so do they care if the punter gets upset about being able to freeload in the lounge on the odd occasion they pay next-to-nothing to travel bmi - I doubt it.

They've put in place a strategy that effectively tries to retain in DC the few who are prepared to stump up top dollar (or rather, pound) and to keep their Star Alliance traffic, and not much else - the rest can either pay low(-ish) fares and be disenfrachised from the frequent flyer program and the lounges. There is no brand loyalty in the low fare market, and I don't see a re-engineered bmi propping up a frequent flyer / lounge program that no other European low-fare operator has just for the sake of it.

But the end result is this sort of half-hearted / incomplete conversion to "low-fare" where some remnants of the old model having been retained to keep a few folks happy and because right now they're scared to lose a few very lucrative customers. None the less, my bet is that IF these changes work for bmi, bmi will pluck up the courage to ditch business class, lounges and maybe even the Star Alliance altogether a year or so from now.

Andy

I was thinking that since DC gold and silver members get access to lounges when flying bmibaby at the moment (i.e. before enhancments) they are following this through by it's continutation. I'm not really convinced that many bmibaby destinations actually have lounges mind.

I am somewhat of the opinion bmibaby is run as a subsidiary of bmi and hence their management choose what benefits to give their parent company's FFs to some degree of independence from the parent company's managment, i.e. bmi. It makes me wonder if the financial planning aspect of the two companies allows for lounge use for bmibaby flights but not for the bmi tiny-fares...again maybe down to two different management teams.

Bmi really are making a mess of this!

Seems to me that they cannot go LCC all the way at LHR on short-haul if they want to develop Long-Haul, partly because they will want some transfer pax to help fill the long-hauls but also because it could prejudice their position regarding the allocation of route rights, as this is one of the elements that are taken into account in CAA decisions. Could also theoretically affect slot allocation issues by ACL, but then, as I don't think that any useful ones are ever likely to be released back to the pool, this last bit remains theoretical.

Can I say I differ somewhat on the interpretation of lounge access that jamespvg put forward?

:eek: :)

...operated by bmibaby or bmi. If Bmibaby, no access.. if bmi, then access (as per clause 2, where *G is a seperate subset from bmi passengers on those ticket types). The only exclusion that seems to be in there is for bmibaby. The comment in there about tiny fares for DC G +S is so throwaway, I'm not sure it can be read as a comment for *G, it seems more of a clarification wrt to DC members from the previous sentence...

I don't think that the last sentence is throwaway, rather that it's just been hastily appended to the end of the page a webmonkey.

bmibaby flights aren't changing to a tiny/standard/premium fare set -- just the regular LCC style-pricing, so flights actually operated by WW itself will all presumably continue to allow access to DC*S/*G. *A Golds have never had access when flying bmibaby.

Despite all the false advertising to the contrary, bmi is still selling and operating its own services, even on 'tiny' fares, and I think that it's impossible for them to claim otherwise -- when one books at bmibaby.com, a little box pops up saying: "This flight is operated by bmi and will be processed by flybmi.com..."

But shoddily worded - and I'm sure other people will and have read other interpretations into it :(

Quite. Why should we have to 'interpret' anything in the first place? :(

Despite all the false advertising to the contrary, bmi is still selling and operating its own services, even on 'tiny' fares, and I think that it's impossible for them to claim otherwise -- when one books at bmibaby.com, a little box pops up saying: "This flight is operated by bmi and will be processed by flybmi.com..."You may well be right - who can bloody tell at the moment :rolleyes: - but this does not mean they would have any *A obligations etc. Cos a flight has to be 'marketed and operated' by a *A carrier for the provider to be obliged to provide miles etc, and this would not apply here (operated by bmi, but marketed by bmibaby).

and on this...flights actually operated by WW itself will all presumably continue to allow access to DC*S/*G....I reiterate my point - the fact that they will continue to allow DC S and Gs to use lounges on bmibaby flights would not be in any way amazing in a normal situation, but I for one find it very hard to believe that they will offer lounge access on all fares on bmibaby flights but not on most fares on bmi flights !

How could such a policy possibly be justified/explained ? The idea of the new BD structure etc is to cost-cut and make BD more LCC - taking away lounge access on these fares, a relatively expensive benefit that FF pax expect - yet this particular policy would mean continued these lounge access costs etc on their existing LCC carrier, benefits that FF pax wouldn't expect to get !!! Insanity ! :confused:

Was not able to call DC to ask, but they have not got a clue anyway, so I guess we are gonna have to wait and see how this pans out ! :rolleyes:

and on this......I reiterate my point - the fact that they will continue to allow DC S and Gs to use lounges on bmibaby flights would not be in any way amazing in a normal situation, but I for one find it very hard to believe that they will offer lounge access on all fares on bmibaby flights but not on most fares on bmi flights !

How could such a policy possibly be justified/explained ?

... "offer lounge access" and offer complimentary lounge access are not necessarily the same thing. Perhaps bmibaby flights will offer paid lounge access on all fares while BMI flights will offer complimentary lounge access only on certain fares?

I think we also now need to start getting Star Alliance involved on this one.

bmi are pushing the rules to the absolute limit, and is going to cause a nightmare for everyone, and ultimately very bad headaches for everyone at *A.

Look at the troubles people have experienced with UA for example as *G's... some days you get a free drink, some days you don't... but with bmi it will be some days they let you in, some days they don't.

Have previously contacted them on Staremailsupport@india.techspan.com, but maybe that has gone, as the website now only shows webmaster@staralliance.com... so suggest you forward your comments to both, just to make sure.

Have previously contacted them on Staremailsupport@india.techspan.com, but maybe that has gone, as the website now only shows webmaster@staralliance.com... so suggest you forward your comments to both, just to make sure.
I contacted Star Alliance with a completely unrelated query in mid-May. The reply came from the Staremailsupport address, so it's certainly been used fairly recently.

... "offer lounge access" and offer complimentary lounge access are not necessarily the same thing. Perhaps bmibaby flights will offer paid lounge access on all fares while BMI flights will offer complimentary lounge access only on certain fares?Thanks GUWonder, you may well have the answer. If this is the case it would be outrageous - as there was no mention of paying for access when on bmibaby flights in that press release, it just said 'access' - but it certainly would make a lot of this make a lot more sense.

One thing that I haven't seen addressed (although that may be because my eyeballs are still revolving in their sockets at all of this) is the issue of lounge access on award trips. Any ideas if they are going to get rid of that (for *g and *s) as well?

I was rash enough to price out a return to Venice in October for two people - miles and cash would have cost me £224.80 +20000 miles, while the lovely new Tiny fares would be £250.40. For the same dates, BA charge £137.40 (for two people!), feed you, and give you 250 miles or so for your trouble. Admittedly that's from Gatwick, but that's a small price to pay.

While it seems pretty much impossible for the impecunious to get status on BA, that's no worse than having status on BD and not being able to use it for anything.

You may well be right - who can bloody tell at the moment :rolleyes: - but this does not mean they would have any *A obligations etc. Cos a flight has to be 'marketed and operated' by a *A carrier for the provider to be obliged to provide miles etc, and this would not apply here (operated by bmi, but marketed by bmibaby).



Nope - the exact wording from LH regarding bmibaby is


There is no possibility of earning miles on flights operated by bmi baby

(My bolding) Now of course nothing to guarantee it not changing in the future....

'Marketed as' means 'sold as', viz. with a WW code rather than a BD code. A flight sold under the BD prefix is marketed as a bmi flight wherever you buy it.
Rather than messing about with fare bases, why don't they use the code prefix as a way of dstinguishing baby fares from bmi fares. That way, they could sell baby fares on flights operated by BD through the bmibaby site through a pseudo code-share and standard fares through the BD site.
But I suppose it would not be obscure and ambiguous enough if they did it that way.

'Marketed as' means 'sold as', viz. with a WW code rather than a BD code. A flight sold under the BD prefix is marketed as a bmi flight wherever you buy it.
Rather than messing about with fare bases, why don't they use the code prefix as a way of dstinguishing baby fares from bmi fares. That way, they could sell baby fares on flights operated by BD through the bmibaby site through a pseudo code-share and standard fares through the BD site.
But I suppose it would not be obscure and ambiguous enough if they did it that way.

I think that's the most sensible suggestion I've come across about how to unpick this mess :) so we can be quite certain it either has been considered and rejected or will not be considered. :(

I note that the fare basis for my LHR/BRU flight on 1 Aug is "WBABY".
Although DC Gold is that the end of lounge entry and consequently may have to buy my own coffee, sticky and newspaper!

If you go to the BMI page and look up Lounge for example in Dublin you see this (bold added by me for visibility:

lounges
business lounge for use by diamond club gold and sliver card members, passengers travelling on a business ticket or full fare economy (premium economy from 01 August) ticket (Y), and Star Alliance gold passengers.

diamond club gold and silver card members and Star Alliance gold card passengers are allowed one guest in the lounge.

silver and gold diamond club members travelling on bmibaby services can use the business lounge, one guest permitted. From 01 August until 01 November 05 silver and gold members travelling on tiny fares will also have access.

No word about *Gold passengers on tiny fares.

That really is completely baffling, although I fear we all know what it means. Oddly, there is no such amendment to the LHR lounge page, but that looks as though it hasn't yet been enhanced by the webmonkeys.

So it looks like they are going to continue to let in *A Gold members as they are not excluded from the list, which makes sense considering *A rules... Sounds like a UA approach to lounge access in the US.
Killing off DC this way though, I suspect!

Yes, you're right. UA can afford to exclude its own elites from domestic lounge access because Mileage Plus is still a great program for regular UA flyers, with plenty of incentives such as E-upgrades, miles on cheap fares, bix check-in etc. DC has no such incentives.

So it looks like they are going to continue to let in *A Gold members as they are not excluded from the list, which makes sense considering *A rules... Sounds like a UA approach to lounge access in the US.
Killing off DC this way though, I suspect!You may be right, though I will only believe it when I see it confirmed in writing, but will the Tiny fares earn miles in other *A FF progs. ? If yes, then some of this in the end, for me anyway, is not that bad, though still unhappy with the other downgrades (no food, extra luggage, priority check-in, etc) - If I can fly the fares as a *A G in another programme and get miles and lounge access, then, WHEN IT IS MUCH CHEAPER THAN BA ETC (and only then) I'll still fly BD. (Otherwise I won't - they have alienated me so much with all this, and I have no urge to give them my money unless there are no better choices for me).

Maybe this has been the BD plan all along - establish a programme that will get the FFs who rely on cheap Y flights earning miles to move to other programmes while still flying BMI, keeping only the regular J and Full Y pax. So when these FFs fly, now in other progs., BD will get the revenue for the fares, but the other programme will pay for the lounge access, the 'cost' of the miles earned/their redemption etc, etc. Clever !

If true thousands of us will move to UA, AC etc progs., but may still fly BMI a bit - the bankrupt UA won't be liking this I suspect, if all these new FFs don't bring in much revenue on UA flights but cost them quite a bit by earning lots of miles etc flying on BD, LH, etc !

Interesting point you're making Aisle Seat H! Didn't think of that... Of course it makes sense offering lounge access to all others than their own members... They still get the money from the other *A members, and don't have to bear the costs of having their own members in the lounges! Somebody must have been so proud of themselves when planning all this! :rolleyes: Except I have a feeling other *A airlines won't feel the same way when all BD DC members flee DC to them but still travel BD only and use their lounges which costs them money... I don't think we've seen the last of all this yet! I really do hope that Star Alliance will express its view on all this that bmi are doing soon!

I guess all those status matches etc really came and bit DC (and all other "regular" Gold members) in the back in the end so they couldn't offer the perks anymore! :rolleyes:

A quick update to add to the rumour mill - I'm afraid this is more unsubstantiated DC lounge agent gossip, but hopefully it may be of interest. Had a chat with one of the BHD lounge staff earlier. She said that she was under the impression that the proposal for no lounge access on tiny fares was currently only "a suggestion", and that she was aware of considerable hostility to it both from passengers and from fellow staff. She said that as a 'lounge dragon' (my words, not hers :) ) herself, she could not see any sense in denying access to a gold or silver card holder who, in her words, "spends all that money with the airline and then once in a while happens to be flying on a tiny fare". She has made enquiries further up the tree after numerous pax comments (curiously enough I was not the first to bring up the subject with her) and all she could say was that nothing has been finalised yet... On a related note, apparently the SSCI system is having to be completely overhauled because there's no provision for pax under 18 travelling alone (no credit cards, no DC card, errrm, no boarding pass). Another Castle Donington triumph. On the lounge issue, have sent a letter to SMB (and it's probably lying in the bin next to thousands of others). I suppose the best we can do is wait and hope...

I guess all those status matches etc really came and bit DC (and all other "regular" Gold members) in the back in the end so they couldn't offer the perks anymore! :rolleyes:Thanks Point_Chaser, and I in turn had not considered your point ! You may be right - the current changes may have been spurred, in no small part, by the influx of FFs via the Status Match : some of them will only have flown a few times, getting lounge access etc, and using the upgrade vouchers to get C seats when only paying cheap Y fares. This may be a BD back lash/attempt to redress this situ., stopping people who do this from wanting to be DC FFs.

Thanks for the info jmd

I suggest that you might want to remove your reference to the source of your info....just to protect the person concerned.

Thanks for the tip, Gate4lounge - have done so.

This may be a BD back lash/attempt to redress this situ., stopping people who do this from wanting to be DC FFs.

And in doing so, stopping all their non-status matched FFs, i.e. those who'#ve given business to bmi and gained status the 'hard-way' from wanting to be in DC too! :mad:

Thanks for the info jmd

I suggest that you might want to remove your reference to the source of your info....just to protect the person concerned.
Gate4lounge,
Don't forget you've also referenced them in your quote!

Thanks for the info jmd

I suggest that you might want to remove your reference to the source of your info....just to protect the person concerned.
And you may wish to edit your quote of jmd's original post too. Rather defeats the purpose otherwise! ;)

Thank you jbfield and AJLondon......I think I've just had a DOH! moment :)

I think we also now need to start getting Star Alliance involved on this one.

bmi are pushing the rules to the absolute limit, and is going to cause a nightmare for everyone, and ultimately very bad headaches for everyone at *A.

Look at the troubles people have experienced with UA for example as *G's... some days you get a free drink, some days you don't... but with bmi it will be some days they let you in, some days they don't.

Have previously contacted them on Staremailsupport@india.techspan.com, but maybe that has gone, as the website now only shows webmaster@staralliance.com... so suggest you forward your comments to both, just to make sure.

It is maybe conceivable that BD will drop out of/get fired from, Star Alliance at some point. I'm just pre-emptively saying that we shouldn't rely on *A as an organisation to maintain minimum standards on BD - if BD irritate *A sufficiently by messing with lounge access etc., I can see one or both filing for divorce.

It is maybe conceivable that BD will drop out of/get fired from, Star Alliance at some point. I'm just pre-emptively saying that we shouldn't rely on *A as an organisation to maintain minimum standards on BD - if BD irritate *A sufficiently by messing with lounge access etc., I can see one or both filing for divorce.Quite possible indeed.

The dominant decision making/breaking airline in the alliance, namely LH, wouldn't be too concerned at BD's departure from Star given that they can provide feeders to FRA on their own metal from LHR/LCY/MAN/EDI/NCL. The ownership issue is already a lock-in. (Unfortunately for LH!)

Others such as SQ/TG/UA/AC might be a tad more concerned about feeders to/from LHR, but they could easily work out individual agreements with BD. Similar to the way in which BD is currently working with VS/SA/GF.