America West FlightFund (Pre-2005 US Airways merger) - HP plans non-stop flights to 4 Hawaiian Islands next year, with or without US

Buried in a much broader article about travel to Hawaii in today's Arizona Republic (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/0531hawaii31.html) were these little tidbits

Early next year, Tempe-based America West, with or without a merger with US Airways, plans to launch daily non-stop service to Honolulu from Phoenix and Las Vegas, quickly followed by daily non-stop service from Phoenix to Maui. Later in the year it plans to add service to the Big Island and Kauai from Phoenix. Passengers from Phoenix have to make connections to get to the latter two islands now.

and this . . .

About half of the passengers on ATA's flights to Hawaii are from cities outside Arizona, some as far away as Providence, R.I., and as close as El Paso. They travel by Southwest to Phoenix and then hop on ATA. . .

Hawaiian Airlines, which serves only the West Coast on the mainland, has a similar arrangement with America West. AmWest carries the folks to Phoenix and Hawaiian takes them to Hawaii. That deal undoubtedly will change, or go away, when America West starts service. Neither side is commenting.

You can find the entire article here. (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/0531hawaii31.html)

Fabulous! ^

Great. :rolleyes: Goodbye HA 763's. Hello HP 752's. :td:

Great. :rolleyes: Goodbye HA 763's. Hello HP 752's. :td:

What, you don't like HP's 20 year old 752's?? :D

What, you don't like HP's 20 year old 752's?? :D

I love the 757, but going from a widebody 763 with 777 style interior to a 757(from any airline) is nothing but a step down. I guess I'll have to stick with AA to Hawaii from now on.

I love the 757, but going from a widebody 763 with 777 style interior to a 757(from any airline) is nothing but a step down. I guess I'll have to stick with AA to Hawaii from now on.

Don't worry I completely agree. Everyone heres me on here moaning about the interior of their 752. Just being sarcastic, sorry. :)

What if, say, these were newer 757's with a completely updated interior, with updated IFE, maybe personal screens at every seat, obvously brand new seats too. Then would it be alright to fly them to Hawaii? I personally would take a plane like that over the 757's UA uses to Hawaii in a heartbeat!

Of course this would be in a fantasy world. Dunno if there's anything in the works to completely gut the planes and re-do them, but it'd sure be nice.

So...how about Airbus 321s to Hawaii? Do they have the range? I'd think so.
Still not as good as 767s, but perhaps better than old 75s?

So...how about Airbus 321s to Hawaii? Do they have the range? I'd think so.
Still not as good as 767s, but perhaps better than old 75s?

No the A321's can't do it without some serious weight restrictions. Even then I'm not taking that flight. I'll take a 752 with 20 year old interior to Hawaii over a A321.

No the A321's can't do it without some serious weight restrictions. Even then I'm not taking that flight. I'll take a 752 with 20 year old interior to Hawaii over a A321.

I don't even know if a A321 could make it off the runway in the middle of August here in Phoenix ^

I too would gladly take Eastern's, er, America West 752 over the Pacific anytime as well :D

Speaking of Phoenix to HNL flights, anyone reckon what we might be looking at for price wise? How about flight time? Currently isn't the San Jose, Costa Rica HP's longest flight time flight? What would the flight time be for PHX-HNL? Would it change anything in regards to elite upgrade eligibility? Of course, that in itself could be a moot point by then with US.

Currently isn't the San Jose, Costa Rica HP's longest flight time flight?


Nope. PHX-SJO is only 2398 miles. PHX-ANC is 2550, and LAX-BOS is 2600.


What would the flight time be for PHX-HNL?


PHX-HNL is 2900 miles. So you can add an extra hour to the flight. Depending on the headwinds, I'd say six-seven hours.


Would it change anything in regards to elite upgrade eligibility?


It shouldn't this would be just like any other domestic flight.

I would guess that it would not be classified as a "domestic" flight for upgrades. It would be classified similar to an internation flight. HP has NO reason to "give" away the seats under any circumstances. I bet they will try to go with "reasonable" F class fares.

Will HA continue to serve PHX or not? Has anyone heard anything? Does anyone know if most of their passengers are connecting to/from HP?

I would guess that it would not be classified as a "domestic" flight for upgrades. It would be classified similar to an internation flight. HP has NO reason to "give" away the seats under any circumstances. I bet they will try to go with "reasonable" F class fares.

Will HA continue to serve PHX or not? Has anyone heard anything? Does anyone know if most of their passengers are connecting to/from HP?

I would agree that upgrades won't be given away to elite members. A very limited number of F seats will probably be available for upgrade using miles, as HA does (and as the new US/HP will likely do on international routes). The rest will be free frequent flyer tickets (also very limited), purchased seats, or available for purchase day of departure. HA charges $250 each way for space available, day of departure upgrades.

HA currently sells PHX-HNL non-refundable, advance purchase F in the $1000 to $1200 range, depending upon time of year. Full F is in the $2400-$2500 range. I'd expect HP to do the same, in line with their discounted F strategy. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they priced the advance purchase F at around $1300 or $1400 and sold every seat at that fare, if they could. That would be more than double when they'll get, on average, for an economy seat. Someone purchasing one at full price will be a rare exception.

I understand from a couple of differerent HA agents that a large percentage of their PHX flights (at least half) are filled by people connecting from HP. Given HP's intention to have four flights a day from PHX to the various islands, I can't imagine that HA would still run the route, especially given that ATA/WN is expanding on the PHX-HNL route as well.

PHX and LAS just many not be the only locations to catch those flights to the islands :D Stay Tuned

Great. :rolleyes: Goodbye HA 763's. Hello HP 752's. :td:

If the merger goes through, maybe they will use US Airways' 767s to Hawaii. Alternatively, they may use the A330 that flies from PHL to San Juan daily for that market.

If the merger goes through, maybe they will use US Airways' 767s to Hawaii. Alternatively, they may use the A330 that flies from PHL to San Juan daily for that market.

Quite possibly!! I was going to disagree with you, but then it quite possibly makes sense. If the merger goes through, I would guess that they would use US planes which are already overwater certified. If not, then look for HP to continue the certification process on their 757's.

On the other hand, HP could dedicate their entire 757 fleet to various Hawaii routes. I am somewhat concerned about the additional lift to Hawaii. Will that cause problems for Aloha and Hawaiian? Or will Hawaii routes easily absorb the added capacity? Hopefully, the latter.

Unfortunately, the US's 767 are currently committed to serving secondary markets TA.

Until the new 330s come on-line, I don't see them pulling the 767s from TA service. Since they appear to be filling most of them now, it would not make any sense to downgage the equipment to something smaller.

So even if this is the eventual plan, you would still need something that can reach HI in the short term. The HP ETOPS 757 is a good canidate for this.

The A330 that flies to SJU comes in from LGW, I believe that aircraft is the one that is usually rotated out for maint for a day or as a spare. If you noticed when the deicing boom collasped in PHL this past winter on a A330, SJU lost its 330 service until the affected aircraft could be repaired, and the net affect to the TA schedule was minimal.

This is why I dont fly Aloha or NW and some AA flights to Hawaii. It is not
a pleasure to deal with one isle of people going up and down for 6 hours
three abreast. HP should strongly consider using a 767 or even a 777
for this routing. A 747 would even be better but too costly for daily service.

This is why I dont fly Aloha or NW and some AA flights to Hawaii. It is not
a pleasure to deal with one isle of people going up and down for 6 hours
three abreast. HP should strongly consider using a 767 or even a 777
for this routing. A 747 would even be better but too costly for daily service.

They already tried the 747 on PHX-HNL over a decade ago and went into bankruptcy partially because of it. In the short term, 757's will probably be used because they are relatively easy to fill, VERY fuel efficient, and only require 4 FA's. If the service catches on and the merger with US goes through, they may well switch to 767-200ER's on some of the high demand routes.

I agree that the 757 is not as good from the passenger standpoint, but hey it's all about low fares these days! However, we dealt with 707's and DC8's for years and we're still around to tell about it.

I still say HP should expand the HA codeshare to the same degree as the CO partnership, and focus on Latin America. Hawaii just isn't as important to the airline as building a better latin american network.

HP still doesn't have a counter in CUN(maybe that will change post merger).



I agree that the 757 is not as good from the passenger standpoint, but hey it's all about low fares these days!

HP has low fares?

Unfortunately, the US's 767 are currently committed to serving secondary markets TA.

Until the new 330s come on-line, I don't see them pulling the 767s from TA service. Since they appear to be filling most of them now, it would not make any sense to downgage the equipment to something smaller.

So even if this is the eventual plan, you would still need something that can reach HI in the short term. The HP ETOPS 757 is a good canidate for this.

The A330 that flies to SJU comes in from LGW, I believe that aircraft is the one that is usually rotated out for maint for a day or as a spare. If you noticed when the deicing boom collasped in PHL this past winter on a A330, SJU lost its 330 service until the affected aircraft could be repaired, and the net affect to the TA schedule was minimal.


You're right about the spare A330, but wrong about the 762s. A few of them are used on high volume routes in the US. PHL-CLT and CLT-MCO come to mind immediately, and there are others. US could pull a couple from domestic routes to use on the flights.

Also, the 752s that HP would be using would only be configured with 14 F seats. That's gonna leave very, very little room for upgrades, even in advance. (All other airlines serving Hawaii brand the flights as "international" flights, so upgrades are not complimentary, and I would imagine the new US to follow suit. AA even offers lounge access for full fare F on some flights from the east coast [JKF, IIRC].) Compare the 752s to US 762s, with international configuration, including 24 Envoy seats with 55" pitch. HA's 763s are configured with a standard domestic F class, with the average 38" pitch.

Unfortunately, the US's 767 are currently committed to serving secondary markets TA.

Until the new 330s come on-line, I don't see them pulling the 767s from TA service. Since they appear to be filling most of them now, it would not make any sense to downgage the equipment to something smaller.

So even if this is the eventual plan, you would still need something that can reach HI in the short term. The HP ETOPS 757 is a good canidate for this.

The A330 that flies to SJU comes in from LGW, I believe that aircraft is the one that is usually rotated out for maint for a day or as a spare. If you noticed when the deicing boom collasped in PHL this past winter on a A330, SJU lost its 330 service until the affected aircraft could be repaired, and the net affect to the TA schedule was minimal.

No, remember that most of the 767s are being used now because of "seasonal service" to select European cities, but such flights are not offered all year long.

Also, if the merger goes through, then the new airline will have sufficient funds to order new airplanes, my guess is that Parker would want more A330s for the fleet since he probably knows that European flights are highly profitable for US Airways.

Also, if the merger goes through, then the new airline will have sufficient funds to order new airplanes, my guess is that Parker would want more A330s for the fleet since he probably knows that European flights are highly profitable for US Airways.

Part of the merger plan they announced was that all the 767's would be replaced with A-330's, later to be replaced with the new A-350's. It sounded as though this was a condition of Airbus' participation in the deal. I have never heard a timeline, though.

I just love all the armchair quarterbacks out there on what America West should do. Over-expansion and egos have killed airlines in the past. America West ought to tread lightly. The Hawaii market already has a lot of competition.....what would make the America West product any better than the others?

Part of the merger plan they announced was that all the 767's would be replaced with A-330's, later to be replaced with the new A-350's.

Why would you replace a 767's capacity with a A330 then an A350? That's a lot of plane to fly to Hawaii.


I just love all the armchair quarterbacks out there on what America West should do. Over-expansion and egos have killed airlines in the past. America West ought to tread lightly. The Hawaii market already has a lot of competition.....what would make the America West product any better than the others?

So are you also of the opinion that Hawaii would be a waste of lift when you have a partner(HA) who can deliver a better product?

[QUOTE=ByrdluvsAWACO]I still say HP should expand the HA codeshare to the same degree as the CO partnership, and focus on Latin America. Hawaii just isn't as important to the airline as building a better latin american network.

HP still doesn't have a counter in CUN(maybe that will change post merger).
QUOTE]

Airlines have to be very careful about hiring in Mexico. Once they hire people, my understanding is that it is extremely difficult to downsize (if necessary) and make seasonal employment adjustments (summer vs. winter). For example, if they hire staff for 6 flights during peak winter season, I believe that they must keep them employed during the summer with only 1 or 2 flights.

HP has low fares?

Not really! I momentarily lost my mind!

Guess why I tolerate AS's always late flights between PHX and SEA? Because HP always wants $75-$150 more for the same dates.

Airlines have to be very careful about hiring in Mexico.

Well, I was thinking other than Mexico. HP has a somewhat decent network in Mexico. They need to expand in central america and start looking at south america.

So are you also of the opinion that Hawaii would be a waste of lift when you have a partner(HA) who can deliver a better product?

Absolutely. I am not sure what HP is gaining on this, especially to run a merger and also expand at the same time. Too many things going on.

Absolutely. I am not sure what HP is gaining on this, especially to run a merger and also expand at the same time. Too many things going on.


I hate to say that I agree. Hawaii flights are historically poor performers. The whole international/pacific expansion should wait a year or so. Trying to jump full steam into new markets, especially highly competitive ones like Hawaii, is risky. The deal should be given some time to play out and the two companies should make some considerable progress in merging before even trying to begin Hawaii service.


I agree with Byrd. I'd like to see some South American expansion; HP could find a nice, underserved niche in Central or South America, as they have in Mexico, and start turning some heavy profits (like US has done in many European cities). Heck, Central/South American service could become an HP focus if they wanted it to be. US currently prides itself on having the largest and most complex Carribean network of any US carrier. Likewise, HP's signature service could be to exotic routes down south. Who knows?

(All other airlines serving Hawaii brand the flights as "international" flights, so upgrades are not complimentary, and I would imagine the new US to follow suit. AA even offers lounge access for full fare F on some flights from the east coast [JKF, IIRC].)

The only airline that still brands their Hawaii service as International First Class is Continental. All others are now strictly domestic first and the service reflects that. On Continental, the FAs even call themselves International FAs and wear International FA pins.

The addition of the 757s for Northwest has been very successful, despite the fact that you and I don't like flying on them. Unless HP plans on a lot of cargo coming through to HNL from those targeted cities, I don't see any advantages of using a wide-body beyond them being more comfortable. Not knowing much about HP, does anyone know if those 757s are ETOPs certified (as they must be to make the trip--the flight to Honolulu from the West Coast, LAX specifically, is the longest stretch of flight in the world that does not have a viable airport to divert to :eek: )?

I miss those days flying HPs 747 service to the mainland--then again, we did see a lot more 747s domestically out of HNL back then.

I understand from a couple of differerent HA agents that a large percentage of their PHX flights (at least half) are filled by people connecting from HP. Given HP's intention to have four flights a day from PHX to the various islands, I can't imagine that HA would still run the route, especially given that ATA/WN is expanding on the PHX-HNL route as well.

Hawaiian was set to pull out from Chapter 11 today. If it didn't (I've seen no press that it did), then it'll pull out soon. Hawaiian has a problem, however. They want to expand with more routes, but don't have the jets to do it. Therefore, by pulling out of the HNL-PHX market, they're able to free up one plane.

Thus, the advantage for HA.

I know nothing about the Hawaiian market. But I have been told that most people use their miles for these flights and that it is a money loser market. Honestly I do not know. Can anyone confirm this?

If it is a money loser I would rather just continue the code share with HA and UA. I am sure someone on here can clear that up.

I know nothing about the Hawaiian market. But I have been told that most people use their miles for these flights and that it is a money loser market. Honestly I do not know. Can anyone confirm this?

If it is a money loser I would rather just continue the code share with HA and UA. I am sure someone on here can clear that up.

There is a lot of truth to this. Hawaii is the most redeemed destination for miles The other thing - what makes people so sure that United is going to code share with the new HP/US when it is all said and done? Perhaps internationally, but domestically, I am not seeing what is in it for them.

I agree but US Airways still has some markets underserved by United a la Caribbean and Eastern USA which might warrant them to continue the codesharing.

You're right about the spare A330, but wrong about the 762s. A few of them are used on high volume routes in the US. PHL-CLT and CLT-MCO come to mind immediately, and there are others. US could pull a couple from domestic routes to use on the flights.


Actually, this is the case only in the winter months, due to the seasonal service of such locations as SNN & DUB. So, for Nov - April you would still need other aircraft that can handle this route until the new 330s are brought on-line.



Expansion to CA & SA would be a natural extension for both HP's & US's current route structure. HP covers Mexico and parts of CA well. US covers the carribean, with a few places in CA. Most of these routes appear to be doing well. I'm not sure what would be needed to get the route authority between the US and various countries down there.

I'd say hold off on the Pacific expansion for a while unless something comes up that is too good to be true, i.e. UA selling their PacOps at firesale prices.

Actually, this is the case only in the winter months, due to the seasonal service of such locations as SNN & DUB. So, for Nov - April you would still need other aircraft that can handle this route until the new 330s are brought on-line.



Expansion to CA & SA would be a natural extension for both HP's & US's current route structure. HP covers Mexico and parts of CA well. US covers the carribean, with a few places in CA. Most of these routes appear to be doing well. I'm not sure what would be needed to get the route authority between the US and various countries down there.

I'd say hold off on the Pacific expansion for a while unless something comes up that is too good to be true, i.e. UA selling their PacOps at firesale prices.

Which isn't impossible for UA to do.

US currently prides itself on having the largest and most complex Carribean network of any US carrier.

I think you're a little off on this one. AA rules the Caribbean.

Not knowing much about HP, does anyone know if those 757s are ETOPs certified

They will be by Fall of this year.

Hawaii will be a very successful destination for HP. It will be extremely successful if the US merger takes place. The vast, vast majority of Hawaiian lift is from the West Coast, and connections east from there can be spotty -- especially to the midwest and east coast. HP, with the only "real" southwest hub, will be a leader in generating new connecting traffic to Hawaii. In addition, the PHX and LAS markets are very strong Hawaiian markets (you guys know about the LAS-Hawaii connection, right?). Also, Hawaii is currently one of the "hottest" leisure markets in the world. Anyone try to book a hotel room there this summer?

I'd also note this fills out the frequent flyer program quite nicely. With Europe and Hawaiian flights available, few flyertalkers will ever need to fly anyone else. :)

I know nothing about the Hawaiian market. But I have been told that most people use their miles for these flights and that it is a money loser market. Honestly I do not know. Can anyone confirm this?

If it is a money loser I would rather just continue the code share with HA and UA. I am sure someone on here can clear that up.

More from the aticle in the original post...

The strong demand comes with a downside, for consumers at least. Airfares to Hawaii, rarely are cheap and usually are pretty high, especially if you don't plan in advance for peak season. Peak season is the summer and any other time kids aren't in school. Earlier this month, the lowest fare to Kauai in mid-July was more than $800.Even with ATA's beefed-up service, fares on its Web site run $600 and up for trips to Maui this summer. Travel agents usually can nab cheaper fares on ATA because it sells a portion of its seats to package operator Apple Vacations, but even those are hard to come by this summer. Off-season fares and last-minute Internet specials are generally bargain hunters' best bets to Hawaii.

I don't even know if a A321 could make it off the runway in the middle of August here in Phoenix ^

I too would gladly take Eastern's, er, America West 752 over the Pacific anytime as well :D

Actually, US Airways bought the ex-Eastern 752's. America West's came from Republic Airlines (when Northwest bought Republic, they sold their 752's because the engines were different than their own). But they are older ones.

HNL's passenger totals bottomed out in the 18-million range in 2003 after staying in the low 20's for the previous twenty years... it went up to 21-million last year and is on pace to beat that this year. Obviously now is a good time to be serving Hawaii.

It's very possible for Hawaii to be profitable for HP, especially considering its interest in America West Vacations -- there's big money to be made in vacation packages (probably one of the key reasons for HP's success at LAS).

HNL's passenger totals bottomed out in the 18-million range in 2003 after staying in the low 20's for the previous twenty years... it went up to 21-million last year and is on pace to beat that this year. Obviously now is a good time to be serving Hawaii.

It's very possible for Hawaii to be profitable for HP, especially considering its interest in America West Vacations -- there's big money to be made in vacation packages (probably one of the key reasons for HP's success at LAS).
You can say that again. It's like 9/11 was just a little speed bump to the tourism industry. Now, after skyrocketing, decent fares have just been very difficult to find.

You can say that again. It's like 9/11 was just a little speed bump to the tourism industry. Now, after skyrocketing, decent fares have just been very difficult to find.

My understanding is that Hawaii is in higher demand due to its being a domestic destination and less of a terrorism threat.

This is why I dont fly Aloha or NW and some AA flights to Hawaii. It is not
a pleasure to deal with one isle of people going up and down for 6 hours
three abreast. HP should strongly consider using a 767 or even a 777
for this routing. A 747 would even be better but too costly for daily service.

Why would a 757 be a mistake, providing the interior is cleaned up and the aircraft is presentable?

Last year I encountered irregular ops en-route SDF-DTW-LGW, was supposed to re-reoute on CO via EWR and eventually ended up going via CLE. Guess what? CLE-LGW is a 757-200. I did not look forward to that flight, I was dreading having to board.

Needless to say I boarded and was quite happy with the service. Flight time was 6 hrs 45 mins this particular day. The fact it is was a single aisle wasn't so much a drawback with it being an overnight flight, but once the FA's finished with the service it really wasn't that bad having to get out -- plus prior to arrival there is the typical rush for the lavs to clean up after a night flight. 3 Lavs for Y (one mid-cabin, two in rear).

Additionally, when on a wide-body, how often does one actually use both aisles? When I'm sitting on the left side of a 777 I don't get up and use the right aisle. Despite being 3 x 3 seating, how about a 777 with 3 x 3 x 3 seating or 2 x 5 x 2 seating? Someone is getting stuck somewhere. Even the 747 you're looking at 3 x 4 x 3, A330 is 2 x 4 x 2.

Even on a 767, assuming the flight goes out full, someone is getting stuck in that middle seat likewise.

That said, I don't mind the 757, I'll take a 757 on a route like PHX-HNL or CLE-LGW again, but it wouldn't be my preferred aircraft.

SDF_Traveler

P.S. Aloha is operating 737-700s from the west coast to Hawaii.