MilesBuzz! - Live from my soapbox: FT navel gazing

Look, I'm not a very judgmental guy. I say live and let live. I don't begrudge anyone anything they can get out of life and the last thing I want to do is impose my own warped morality on any one else.
BUT...

...have you noticed Flyertalk is becoming more and more about how to trick, deceive, and rip-off the airlines and hotels rather than how to work within the rules to maximize perks and miles/points?

I mean, ok, think back to Rudi's Guerilla Tips. Those were pretty on-the-line ethically speaking. And we've gone round and round on back-to-backs.

But I think some of the things that are being discussed lately are really over the line. How can someone in good conscience book something at $0 then extort concessions to cancel the reservation? $29? Fine. But $0? Come on, folks!!!!

How can people complain about Greenpoints changing their policy after admitting they
got them for 30K miles without buying anything (which could only be done using multiple accounts)?

How can folks take a targeted promotion as the greatest insult against them ever?

Flyertalk has been viewed for a long time as a place where rules were stretched, bent and played for absolute maximum benefit. But I'm wondering where the line is. I mean, at what point are we crossing the line into fraud?

It's a fuzzy thing. IMHO, selling upgrades, points and awards is wrong. Giving them away either with or without expectation of future reciprocal generosity, well, that's just being friendly.

But at some point it just seems to me that Flyertalk found a comfort zone across that fuzzy line.

The recent banishments notwithstanding, I just wonder whether FT has become something untoward. Have we allowed our greed to take us from maximizers to cheaters?

I dunno. I think I'll have a Red Bull and vodka and think about it some more...

What do you think?

Unfortunately ... I agree with you on this ...

There's a couple of threads right now about "The List" ... I'm not sure why I'd ever want to do anything to earn miles/points/stays/segments that I did not want the travel companies finding out about. I don't see my relationship with these companies as adversarial, it's a business arrangement. They sell a product and provide service and even perks, and I buy them. I just don't see a benefit to taking an adversarial point of view with them. I don't always agree with what they do, and in those cases I let them know with my wallet, and when I do agree with what they are doing ... I again, let them know with my wallet.

Although some of the tips here on Flyertalk are in the gray area, because they are here on Flyertalk I would typically consider them fair game since the industry reps are welcome here too, and that what I *like* about Flyertalk. When you feel the need to "hide" things from the airlines and hotels, it's obviously over the line.

Kokonutz: What percentage of posts are actually about mileage earning opporunities now?

We have become a general travel forum, lets face-it.

Ok, I am as guilty as anyone - I used to post every bonus offer and promotion I received, I haven't bothered doing that for maybe a year.


Regards,
Nick

IMHO, Personally I think that if we can get it from the airline, hotel, car rental etc... we should get it, they won't think twice to squeeze another dime out of us. Like the prior reader just said, they (airline, hotel, etc reps) are on here as well and can change the loophole if they think that it is flat out wrong.

So everyone, I hope y'all keep posting all the promos, ways around certain restrictions, loopholes etc then each individual will be able to decide whether to pursue the perk based on their own ethical standard and risk tolerance for getting "caught".

I don't have a problem with people posting every little promo even if sometimes its posted multiple times. That is just the price one has to pay for reading such a well read board such as this. If something is posted that I don't like or agree with, I 'try' to just go to the next thread.

koko,

Although I am tempted to agree with anyone pouring a Redbull and Vodka at 11am Virginia time, I think I will have to say that you may be presenting a somewhat glorified version of FlyerTalk's past. Have we forgotten the LH/UA upgrade "loophole" exploited by a few flyertalkers. How about the MCI switch on switch off discussions? All these occured more than a year or two ago.

Today the vast majority of FlyerTalker's do not get their miles by flying. They use flyertalk as a way to pick up hints on where they can obtain extra miles, free flights, or higher status without the actual flying. I mean is there seriously a single non-gold Hilton FlyerTalker that has not earned at least a 50K bonus on a target offer that he was not entitled to???

I came on this board a couple years ago seeking help on my first RTW trip and was given some great advice. That trip also corresponded with the first 1-world 100K promo. Flyertalkers were able to share some great advice and I picked up boat loads of miles on the cheap.

I will admit I prefer the flyertalk of old where the discussion centered on miles and upgrade tricks. It is a victim of its own success in my mind. However for others this board has become a gold mine of information.

Anyway it is almost noon, so I still have a few hours before my redbull and vodka!!

rich

This is a good topic kokonutz,

I have to agree too, it is up to an individual to judge what is right (or within the lines) and what is not.

Unfortunately, as time go on, and the word of mouth get out to everyone about FlyerTalk, we will have more people who think "anything goes". If it can be done, why not? and, if I get caught, oh well... Those are some of the attitudes out there, and for those of us who value what is given to us as a benefiet from the airlines, hotels, etc. we should continue to live within the lines. There will always be some out there who feel they "deserve" the best deal, or they can cheat the system by booking a flight, using SWU to reserve an upgrade, then show up for the flight and ask to have the upgrade changed from SWU to 800 MSU (speaking of DL here).

There is also the fact that in society as a whole, this kind of thing happens all the time. Watch the news, go to the local mall and watch shoppers, look how we drive on the roads, take mass transit. It is unfortunate that morality is something that is not ingrained in more people, and having the respect for what we have.

This can go on forever, people always want "the most for less". We need to keep things in perspective and wish others out there can conduct themselves in a civil, "within the lines" manner.

I notice little of what you mention Koko on the DL board--where I hang out--but it is prevelant elsewhere.

Perhaps the recent banishments (if they are who I *think* they are) will clean up some of the other boards.

But if you feel strongly about what you say, I believe an oppurtunity exists right now to swing the tide back in the other direction. You should be posting more, not less--as should a lot of other people who've quiet-ed down as of late...

Remember when people used to stop at yellow lights?

Today, yellow means "punch it" so you won't still be going through the intersection too long after the light has turned red.

Alas, what happened to the Golden Rule, good faith and civility?

Kokonutz: I tend to agree with you. Advertised and solicited ways to collect/use miles or discounted fares/rates are great and I aggressively take advantage of them but I find taking advantage of "mistakes" such as $0 rooms or airfares that are a glitch in some system going too far. I say treat the airlines, hotels, car companies, etc the way you'd like to be treated and use those that treat you well.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

RichLond I think has hit it on (or near) the head. I'm NOT a point junkie. Points are nice, and I collect 'em as much as anyone. But I'm really more of a status junkie. I do travel a lot and want it to be as nice as possible. I'm greedy about my status. But not so much about the points. So maybe that's why I don't feel so much at home on FT anymore?????????

Actually, though, the Vodka wont go into the Redbull until this evening... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

All of the FTers who have posted above have been around for much longer than I have. So I can't really compare what the FT boards used to be like vs. how they are today.

However, what I've mostly found here on the FT boards are nice folks passionate about miles, points, flying, travel, airplanes, and all the rest. I'm amazed at the information and clever ideas available here and the sense of (usually!) camaraderie among the fellow FTers.

That said, when I first saw a thread about $0 hotel bookings (Mexico City Hilton??), I was very surprised. I mean, who really thinks they should be allowed to pay this rate because a computer made an error? What if your bank inadvertently adds $10,000 to a deposit you made? Is the money yours to spend? No. And if the IRS sends you your tax bill and it reads "$0" but you know you owe $15,000, are you not going to pay? I think not.

These are exaggerated, unlikely examples; but so is a "$0" quote for a flight or a hotel room. So doesn't common sense or decency come into play here? Or is it justifiable because some "faceless" corporation made a mistake and they deserve to be taken for a ride?

I'm glad KOKONUTZ brought up this topic because I thought I might be the only one wondering about this "$0" mentality.

BlairVanhorn, what was your perception of the United Web fare error from a short time ago where flights from SJC to Paris were for a small amount (I believe less than $100). They were published for the public on their website. Do you think those people who bought those tickets were entitled to their trip on the tix purchased? Personally, I do, If I see an advertised fare at a very cheap rate, I will be the first to grab it. I didn't see that UAL fare and therefore wasn't able to book it, however I believe that it was fair (no punn intended) game for those who did get lucky enough to purchase the tickets. I think of these airlines as the same guys gouging me $100 to change a flight that costs them next to nothing. The same goes for fuel surcharges, energy surcharges in hotels... etc.. I don't have a choice many times and am forced to take this or not go at all. Which for me is not a choice. I feel no pain, guilt whatsoever when I can legally take advantage of an airline, hotel etc. The key is legally. Now I wouldn't do anything illegal nor would I do anything that I believed might jeopordize my status and point accumulations. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by blairvanhorn:
All of the FTers who have posted above have been around for much longer than I have. So I can't really compare what the FT boards used to be like vs. how they are today.

However, what I've mostly found here on the FT boards are nice folks passionate about miles, points, flying, travel, airplanes, and all the rest. I'm amazed at the information and clever ideas available here and the sense of (usually!) camaraderie among the fellow FTers.

That said, when I first saw a thread about $0 hotel bookings (Mexico City Hilton??), I was very surprised. I mean, who really thinks they should be allowed to pay this rate because a computer made an error? What if your bank inadvertently adds $10,000 to a deposit you made? Is the money yours to spend? No. And if the IRS sends you your tax bill and it reads "$0" but you know you owe $15,000, are you not going to pay? I think not.

These are exaggerated, unlikely examples; but so is a "$0" quote for a flight or a hotel room. So doesn't common sense or decency come into play here? Or is it justifiable because some "faceless" corporation made a mistake and they deserve to be taken for a ride?

I'm glad KOKONUTZ brought up this topic because I thought I might be the only one wondering about this "$0" mentality.

kokonutz,

I too long for the "old" days. I remember when the old PRODIGY (sigh!) travel boards were a great area. I made lots of friends. They even had a get together in Vegas!
Until I found Randy's board, I was literally lost in space. I logged on, but without a home. When Randy went public, it was great. Sorry it took me so long to get here.
So a time passes koko, things change.
I think we're all a little bit guilty of trying to Beat d' System. (A travel buddies actual screen name).
Nothing wrong with that, as long as it's not abused. You're right about the Hilton $0. As for the United $29 fare, with those crazy fare wars...who knows.

Kokonuts, Take heart. I was a new flyertalker a few months ago. And new folks are arriving everyday. And yes, some of them will turn out to be the next Catman, PremEx, and Matt Wald. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
And hopefully some of them won't turn into the 'bad' guys.

Just my take on things.
Great post BTW.

Dan

Excellent topic, Kokonutz. As I read it, I agreed with you.
But then a funny thing happened. I learned elsewhere on this board about CyberRebate's going Chapter 11 today.
And now I can't help but feel even more appreciative of the tips, advice, and warnings that this board provides. I think I need to know about the points deals and computer glitches just to break even!

OH I see another TV show coming up!

MILES COURT!

Just need a Judge or a look alike one in a robe and a video taping crew.


I agree, the board is evolving into 'beating the system' rather then 'playing the game'!
A couple more possible tv shows?

The SFO-CDG tickets were less than $30, not less than $100, and if you ask me that's just as obvious an error as a $0 hotel room, since $30 wouldn't even usually cover mandatory government fees on an international flight.

I don't think UA was a bad company for refusing those tickets, it's a mistake, and an obvious one at that. If a UA agent accidentally gave me too much change for something I paid cash for, I'd give it back ... I really don't see much difference here, but I know that's not a view held by all.

TrojanHorse,

I agree with BECKLES above. I appreciate and agree with your opinion about some crazily low airfares and taking advantage of them, but as I said in my post, and as BECKLES aptly puts it above, "common sense" would pretty much rule out my booking a SFO-CDG flight for $30 and thinking I would get away with it.

(BECKLES, I'd return the change, too! That's what my parents taught me to do.)

[This message has been edited by blairvanhorn (edited 05-16-2001).]

Stretch the rules, bend it, be aggressive about it but do not break it or cheat it.

It finally boils down to ethics. Like Beckles put it,
If a UA agent accidentally gave me too much change for something I paid cash for,(added) and did not know about it . What would you do. Keep it saying that you beat the system, siphoned off from a faceless organization or return it....

Being fairly new, I do not know about the good old days. What I do know is that there are a lot of newbies, lot of gimme posts, lot of show me how posts, etc. I know it dilutes the offering but also holds promise. If only a few of the newbies stick around, read, learn, the number of "Elite" Evangelists would increase. And so would the content of this board.

While looking at the empty side of the glass, do not turn a blind eye towards the filled side as it holds a lot of promise.


(If you want some money, intentionally get bumped. Thats the way to do it.)

Just my two cents ( Definition: Vodka Martini and Crown Royal)




[This message has been edited by Bourne (edited 05-16-2001).]

Originally posted by RichLond:
koko,

Although I am tempted to agree with anyone pouring a Redbull and Vodka at 11am Virginia time, I think I will have to say that you may be presenting a somewhat glorified version of FlyerTalk's past. Have we forgotten the LH/UA upgrade "loophole" exploited by a few flyertalkers. How about the MCI switch on switch off discussions? All these occured more than a year or two ago.

Today the vast majority of FlyerTalker's do not get their miles by flying. They use flyertalk as a way to pick up hints on where they can obtain extra miles, free flights, or higher status without the actual flying. I mean is there seriously a single non-gold Hilton FlyerTalker that has not earned at least a 50K bonus on a target offer that he was not entitled to???

I came on this board a couple years ago seeking help on my first RTW trip and was given some great advice. That trip also corresponded with the first 1-world 100K promo. Flyertalkers were able to share some great advice and I picked up boat loads of miles on the cheap.

I will admit I prefer the flyertalk of old where the discussion centered on miles and upgrade tricks. It is a victim of its own success in my mind. However for others this board has become a gold mine of information.

Anyway it is almost noon, so I still have a few hours before my redbull and vodka!!

rich



True. Times change and so does the methods. No harm signing up for promos to get extra bonus. Or switching off and on Tel companies. Thats bending or stretching the rules.

Booking "0" rates or UA $35~~ rates and then fighting with the company to honour it, trading AA SomeoneSpecial cards for operational upgrade with the gate agent, are purely un-ethical.

Bourne ~ Well said, and I'm not trying to be an old coot or anything ... "Back in my day we didn't have these fancy online statements, we had to take a knife and scratch our mileage into our arm, and it hurt, and it sucked, but we liked it.

It just worries me that FT seems to be coming more and more about abusing the systems and whining until you get the airlines/hotels to cave in to your every whim, whereas before it was about maximizing everything. Loopholes ... tricks ... tips ... those are fine and what FT is all about for me, but more and more things seem to be moving towards much more nefarious methods and goals than I am comfortable with.

Originally posted by Beckles:
I don't think UA was a bad company for refusing those tickets, it's a mistake, and an obvious one at that. If a UA agent accidentally gave me too much change for something I paid cash for, I'd give it back ... I really don't see much difference here, but I know that's not a view held by all.

That speaks to the heart of this whole discussion. This board is about honestly maximizing miles and points through ethical means, not pointing to these companies as evil entities that owe us something because of some past error or combination of missteps, etc.

Then people who are caught trying to take advantage of something don't say - O.K. I understand, but they get angry??!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif



------------------
Ken in Sacramento

The last time I looked, 30 bucks was less than 100 bucks and wasn't UAL only charging the fee portion... again I dont know I missed out on the deal. I don't blame UAL for trying to weasel out of it, I would too if I were them, however I don't blame the people who purchased tickets to insist they enforce their deal. I don't see this the same as receiving too much change from a cashier in the least bit. UAL wants customers to use its website, people have a reason to believe that the fares are accurate, if they aren't accurate then they shouldn't have the website until it is accurate. As someone said, there are some crazy fares out there and who's to know what is legit and what isn't. What if a person needed to go that route, was there to buy tickets legit, saw the fare, purchased them, and then missed out on other deals b/c UAL made a mistake. UA would tell them tough luck. They didn't in this case b/c of the publicity, however, I don't believe they gave a hoot about the customer in the least bit. Only their publicity

Originally posted by Beckles:
The SFO-CDG tickets were less than $30, not less than $100, and if you ask me that's just as obvious an error as a $0 hotel room, since $30 wouldn't even usually cover mandatory government fees on an international flight.

I don't think UA was a bad company for refusing those tickets, it's a mistake, and an obvious one at that. If a UA agent accidentally gave me too much change for something I paid cash for, I'd give it back ... I really don't see much difference here, but I know that's not a view held by all.

As someone who has a little experience with loopholes, let me share a story. For those of you who don't know, I used to represent Starwood Preferred Guest on this site, BW (Before William). A member contacted me and insisted that we give him a bonus because he had been misinformed about the details. After doing some research I discovered the source of the misinformation...FlyerTalk.

Mistakes happen. We all make them. You and I can't pay for every one of our mistakes the same way a company with deep pockets can. Is that fair?

jk

------------------
"Hang up my haishirt, put my scourge in place, and pray, Laurent, for Heaven's perpetual grace."

Moliere, "Tartuffe"

The last time I looked, 30 bucks was less than 100 bucks and wasn't UAL only charging the fee portion... again I dont know I missed out on the deal. I don't blame UAL for trying to weasel out of it, I would too if I were them, however I don't blame the people who purchased tickets to insist they enforce their deal. I don't see this the same as receiving too much change from a cashier in the least bit. UAL wants customers to use its website, people have a reason to believe that the fares are accurate, if they aren't accurate then they shouldn't have the website until it is accurate. As someone said, there are some crazy fares out there and who's to know what is legit and what isn't. What if a person needed to go that route, was there to buy tickets legit, saw the fare, purchased them, and then missed out on other deals b/c UAL made a mistake. UA would tell them tough luck. They didn't in this case b/c of the publicity, however, I don't believe they gave a hoot about the customer in the least bit. Only their publicity

Originally posted by Beckles:
The SFO-CDG tickets were less than $30, not less than $100, and if you ask me that's just as obvious an error as a $0 hotel room, since $30 wouldn't even usually cover mandatory government fees on an international flight.

I don't think UA was a bad company for refusing those tickets, it's a mistake, and an obvious one at that. If a UA agent accidentally gave me too much change for something I paid cash for, I'd give it back ... I really don't see much difference here, but I know that's not a view held by all.

dupe posting

[This message has been edited by Jae (edited 05-16-2001).]

The last time I looked, 30 bucks was less than 100 bucks and wasn't UAL only charging the fee portion... again I dont know I missed out on the deal. I don't blame UAL for trying to weasel out of it, I would too if I were them, however I don't blame the people who purchased tickets to insist they enforce their deal. I don't see this the same as receiving too much change from a cashier in the least bit. UAL wants customers to use its website, people have a reason to believe that the fares are accurate, if they aren't accurate then they shouldn't have the website until it is accurate. As someone said, there are some crazy fares out there and who's to know what is legit and what isn't. What if a person needed to go that route, was there to buy tickets legit, saw the fare, purchased them, and then missed out on other deals b/c UAL made a mistake. UA would tell them tough luck. They didn't in this case b/c of the publicity, however, I don't believe they gave a hoot about the customer in the least bit. Only their publicity

Originally posted by Beckles:
The SFO-CDG tickets were less than $30, not less than $100, and if you ask me that's just as obvious an error as a $0 hotel room, since $30 wouldn't even usually cover mandatory government fees on an international flight.

I don't think UA was a bad company for refusing those tickets, it's a mistake, and an obvious one at that. If a UA agent accidentally gave me too much change for something I paid cash for, I'd give it back ... I really don't see much difference here, but I know that's not a view held by all.

Another dupe post - see what I mean about mistakes?

[This message has been edited by Jae (edited 05-16-2001).]

Kokonutz, any more room up on that soapbox for me? My moral compass was truly sickened by some of the "gimme, gimme" attitude on that $0 hotel thread. I tried to steer it back to a higher ethical ground but gave up on the thread completely after a few posts. I am glad to see that I was not the only one who thought it crossed the line.

Aside for the generosity of folks on The Coupon Connection (which sometimes has its own "gimme, gimme" problem), I don't believe that there are many free things in life. You get what you pay for (or as much hard work and effort as you put it).

I guess the problem is all related to this Internet Bubble, which in hindsight was not only a big ponzi scheme but also also a transfer of wealth from one group to another. Some of the many transfers went from naive stockholders (both small investors and big institutions) to greedy VCs, from greedy VCs to amateur CEOs/entrepreneurs, and from no-business-plan dotcoms to their employees and customers. The S.P.A.M. board wouldn't exist today without the Bubble, and I think the freebies and the referral schemes that blossomed out of every dotcom's marketing department have conditioned some folks to believe that "something for nothing" really is possible...

Disclosure: I asked to sign up for "The List". I am hoping that the list will offer insights on all good deals; however, I would never take advantage of a $0 deal (or even a $30 airfare deal), or rat on someone who did. Karma works both ways.

[Sigh]

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,,,

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Yes, I am in the process of trying to edit all of my duplicate posts. Is that topical or what? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif I bet this one posts on the first try.

jk

Koko: We met at Bernie's in DUS. Just wanted to tell you how much I agreed with you!

Sorry, dupe



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Very wierd: In over a year of posting, I never before have had a duplicate message. This board seems crazy.

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Originally posted by blairvanhorn:

"common sense" would pretty much rule out my booking a SFO-CDG flight for $30 and thinking I would get away with it.




"Common Sense" would tell me paying less for a RT ticket than a OW ticket for the same journey must be a "mistake".

"Common Sense" would tell me the person sitting next to me in first class must also have paid $10,000 for the US to Europe flight (not $368 with an operational double upgrade)

I don't think "Common Sense" applies to this industry.

Sorry dup--board not working!

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What a great thread. Agree with many of the comments here 100% - there is a certain limit to which I will go before I feel not very good about doing it, and that's when the fun and comfort is taken out of it. I'm more than happy to use what we're given to maximum advantage within the rules (eg: A few DEN-COS-DEN turns at 500 miles min/segment) within a larger trip. A "Baht Run" type idea is hitting the limit in some ways, but it still perfectly legal - you buy a/many(!) tickets at a retail/published price and fly the miles/segments. I would never have pushed something like the $27 fare which is so obviously a mistake (like the time, as a schoolkid I somehow had a bank balance of over $93 million, and wandered in to tell the bank and the teller looked at me blankly as though "so what is the problem?"!).

One of the more irritating things for me has been some posters(and some whoose recent departure has definately been an improvement) boasting to one and all of various accomplishments - I wish them well and all, but do we really need to be subjected to such arrogance?


To me I'd feel morally underhanded in receiving something I hadn't properly deserved. If it is a free upgrsde or something given by a company agent - that's wonderful. If mileage is double credited, or not deducted properly for an upgrade I'm not going to run to them and tell (this has happened more than once) but I'm not going to break any published and well known rules deliberately just for the sake of a few miles, an upgrade or whatever. As someone else said, karma comes back....


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RichardMEL, UA 1K
A Star Alliance Member.

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Perhaps I'm in the minority here, as I think that the relationship between me and the airline/hotel is for the most part purely adversarial, at least when I'm making the reservation. They want me to pay the most money possible for the least product; I want to pay the least for the most product. There is no getting around that, and if you think the airline is your friend, you have bought into their marketing fluff.

That said, I think the situation should be adversarial, but the game should be played within the rules. But people's conceptions of the rules are different. For some people, for example, the rules of bargain hunting in a store don't preclude shoplifting or writing bad checks. For some shopkeepers, miscounting your change or selling you an empty box are inside the rules of running a retail business. Most of us would agree, however, that both of these behaviors fall outside the rules of our culture(s).

To wind up this diatribe... I think there are certain generally agreed-upon rules of the game, at least in the world of doing business in the US and some countries similar to the US in the year 2001. One of those rules is that we do not take advantage of an earnest, unintended clerical mistake. If someone miscounts money, we don't laugh at them and keep the difference. If a Hilton data drone forgets to input the price on a hotel, we don't book a year's worth of stays at the $0 price. These standards are backed up by contract law today. I don't think there's any place in the US where you can hold someone to a contract in which they made a computational error. So even if you don't agree with the principle of the standard, it does you no good to attempt to violate it, as the courts (and your credit card company, etc) won't agree with you.

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Koko IMHO has hit the proverbial nail on the head - again! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

I could not possibly agree more, as I do with fallingasleep and so many others in this thread!

Post it for all to see and judge, IMHO, and let us each decide individually! I too want to know what's on "the list" - even if I do not take advantage of it! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

FWIW, I did not book the UA, Hlton or Whistler deals, but while the obvious $0.00/nt was out, I admit I thought about the others and might book a similar super cheap deal in the future if it suited me - but, as Koko noted, I too am more concerned with the elite status concerns and so on than either the points/miles accumulation or the moneysaving! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

But it's ALL nice! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I'm a little nervous about posting, since the board seems to have "hiccups" today, but I just wanted to say...

what Koko said.

I'm with you 100%. I see no problem with taking full advantage of legit offers that are out there. If someone is willing to fly back and forth to places he doesn't even really want to visit, just to get the miles, I say more power to him. His butt was in the seat, so he earned the miles. Likewise, if I'm willing to hassle with changing my long distance carrier in order to get a mileage promo, as long as I'm following the rules, I earned the miles.

By contrast, trying to turn a clerical error into extortion fodder, or blatantly ignoring the Terms of Service after one has agreed to follow them (i.e. by opening multiple rewards accounts for the same person) is IMHO just plain unethical. The sense of entitlement (aka "the world owes me") exhibited by people who do this kind of thing really bothers me.

Chronic system-cheaters tend to make the companies involved stop offering promos -- not that the cheaters seem to care, as long as they get what they want in the short term.

Excuses like "it's a big corporation that rips me off with its high prices, so I should be able to scam some goodies from it" are really lame self-justifications for being dishonest.

Matt, thank you!

IMHO you have found what has been bothering me (and probably many others) about the
'spirit of FT' for about the last 6 months.

Many tried to blame it on folks who are no longer welcome here, but I didn't buy that because it didn't bother me that much. It was more a change of attitude than anything else.

I remember my first post on July 1, 1999, about UA & a mileage situation I had with them. I was amazed at how quickly many others jumped in to help me understand and also agree with me. And it just got better from there...

I got a referral for DC from Beckles after reading about it here; ordered the AmEx SPG card from info I got here; learned about the DL SWU/800 mi. segment switch (totally legal - not a 'cheat' as others have implied) here; and so many more ways to use the 'system' to my (collectively=our) advantage.

Numerous FT dinners all over the country, meeting so many new faces & trading road warrior stories, not "how can we really get more than we're entitled to". Then there was the PIP, and kokonutz was born. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

I couldn't agree more...you really have nailed this one spot on!

The truly sad part is the masses of seasoned FT'ers that have gone away recently. Without trying too hard, I rattled off about 35 names that haven't been heard from here in quite a while, some of whom I got many great pieces of advice from. The newer members here who think this is a forum to steal from the system will never know what they are missing... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

<End of rant>

Shadow has articulated why I have not enjoyed FT for the last few months as much as I did when I joined. I hope we can collectively make a turn for the better.

Originally posted by Beckles:
There's a couple of threads right now about "The List" ... I'm not sure why I'd ever want to do anything to earn miles/points/stays/segments that I did not want the travel companies finding out about

Well, there are certainly things you can do on DL that are a) legal and b) likely to draw the RPU's attention to you. Sounds like a good reason for a closed list to me!

Originally posted by paulr:
Well, there are certainly things you can do on DL that are a) legal and b) likely to draw the RPU's attention to you. Sounds like a good reason for a closed list to me!

Maybe you know more than I do, but I have yet to hear of any Delta customer have action taken against them by RPU when they were not breaking the rules. And by "action" I don't just mean someone having their accout looked at, but some actual action against the flyer.

But again, that just proves my point, if you don't want Delta to know about it, you're practically admitting it's breaking the rules, why else wouldn't you want them to know about it?

I'm gonna jump in here with my two cents, though I usually stay out of such discussions.

While I agree to a certain extent the degree of attitude change around here, I'm also going to disagree with some of what has been said in this thread.

Regarding the $0 hotel room, it sounds to me like a clearly erroneous offer, and one that would not stand up in a court of law. Taking advantage of that one would be much the same as taking food out of a vending machine simply because you could reach into it.

OTOH, the ~$27 SFO-CDG fare is a different matter entirely. Granted, some people would have figured out that it's less than the taxes charged for the trip, but as much as I know about air travel, I don't think I would have figured that one out on my own, since I have no idea how they calculate those taxes. I'd be hard-pressed to believe that I'm alone in this. But that particular situation could have been resolved simply by UA contacting the ticketholders and explaining that there was a mistake. Instead, UA chose to charge an additional $500+ to those people's credit cards. Two wrongs do not make a right, either ethically or legally. Any ethical high ground that UA might have had before those charges was immediatly lost by applying those charges.

What is ethical and what is not does, in fact, vary by individual. In addition, ethics decrease in value as the "offended" party gets dehumanized. That is much of what is often discussed in American culture. The US is a nation of people that move frequently, hide in their suburban homes in large cities, and interact on a personal level with as few people as possible. This makes it easy to dehumanize those humans around us.

I actually enjoy the look of astonishment on people's faces when I am especially friendly with them. It's a behavior that was once expected, back when people lived in small, closely-knit communities...back when they actually knew everyone they talked to. Today, behaving in such a friendly, familiar fashion has to be somewhat forced, as we generally don't, in fact, know who we're talking to.

Part of this familiarity in the past resulted in a bit of preferential behavior by businesses toward known elite customers. The affinity programs were developed, in a way, to compensate for the lack of a natural method of accomplishing this. Having familiar "angels" in the companies generate a bit of a natural approach, though interestingly DL has tried to cut that behavior out.

I realize I'm rambling a bit here. It's just that I'm unsure why FT is in the predicament that it's in. I don't think it's just a couple of people who came in here and smashed the china. Perhaps it's related to my comments above of us no longer being members of a small town; we're now part of the metropolis that is FlyerTalk.

A very interesting question kokonutz.

I too look at my relationship to airlines as being adversarial. CO, UA, et. al. will not hesitate to charge me $1.25/mile between NY-DC or lie to me about delays. Therefore, I feel that it is ethical to fly a 747 through any and all legal loopholes that I can find. A sort of "street justice", I suppose.

I too find the airline relationship purely adversarial. We've recently experienced that in the Air Canada forum, where for months members have been taking advantage of cheap fares to Mexico, fastidiously following every tariff rule.

Yesterday, AC, UA, and MX, in a coordinated action, made major changes to the tariffs, apparently with the explicit intention of preventing us from using those fares. Clearly the airlines acted in a manner to extract as much money from us as possible -- an adversarial action if I ever saw one.

Secondly, with regard to mistakes -- I recently took advantage of a $19/night room in Whistler BC. Somebody inadvertantly dropped a "9" from the $199 rate, and I took advantage of it. This booking required full payment at time of reservation, with no refunds.

Now, what if I was making a similar reservation for the 19th of June, on the actual $199 rate, and inadvertantly dropped a 9, thus making the reservation for the 1st instead? What if I did the same on an airline reservation and ticket, especially on a non-refundable/non-changeable ticket? I'd be screwed, right? D*mn right -- I made a mistake, and I'd end up paying for it. Therefore, it seems only fair that if a hotel or airline can make essentially the same mistake, they're bound by the same rules as the passenger/guest, notwithstanding much greater legal and financial might.

(BTW, I explained the situation to Amex, including the "mistaken" rate. Their response was that if I had a confirmed reservation and rate with a confirmation number, they'd stand behind me.)

I disagree that the airlines and hotels never let you out of your "mistakes". AA on more than once has allowed me to change a non changeable fare or routing. Hilton has also has been great.

They treat me fair so I respond the same.

eye for an eye or
turn the other cheek?

hmmmm

Moral dilemma. Which biblical guidance to take?

drtravels does raise an interesting point. The fairer the treatment, the fairer the response in kind would seem logical. But isn't that how wars get started?

Seems to me that one party (at least) in this equation needs to set a higher bar and not keep sinking lower. Most of all--have fun. If it's not fun, then we are ALL doing something wrong.

IMHO all we are doing is killing the growth of e-commerce services, most of these "free" trips and "free" hotel stays are hickups in the firms e-commerce programs, if to many people take advantage of mistakes more and more companies will stop e-commerce or reduce service on them, especially if it costs them money instead of making money. A small error is no problem, a small error being published for a complete board to take advantage of is unfair, the firm will always get the money back, the market usually gets it's money back from the folks that are honest enough to play it by the rules...

Re: adversarial relationships with travel service providers:

Do you consider your relationship with Safeway adversarial? After all, they charge more for watermellon in the summertime, just to get as much money out of you as possible.

What about your relationship with your local watering hole? They'll charge $1 for a beer, but only on Tuesday. On Friday, when YOU want a beer, they "rip you off" for $5 a bottle! And dont get me started on the Buffalo Wings. On Wednesday they want $4 for 10 of them. On Thursday they'll give me all I want for FREE!!!!

Ok, I'm being a fecitous snot now. But you get my drift. Not everything has a solid price point. And when it comes to marketing the only thing that is certain is inconsistency. But when the grocery store or the bar or the airline sets up rules and invites us in, there is an expectation in a civil society that you're not going to operate outside the bounds of civility.

For example, if you saw a piece of prime rib marked for 50 cents per pound, you go for it. But just because you see a barrel of peanuts with no price tag on or near it, you dont go and eat half the barrel standing there in the store.

At the happy hour free buffalo wing bar, I take a few wings and eat them. I dont stuff my pockets, a bag and the trunk of my car with free buffalo wings. There's a line there. And it's NOT, IMHO, a battle line.

I enjoy the wings. I'm glad they are free. I come as often as possible and sometimes make dinner out of them. I dont resent it that they are not free every night, and I dont go nutz that I cant get them for free more often. After all, I'm mostly there for the beer anyway.

Besides, there's always the mexican place with the free taco bar on Wednesdays http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Food for thought [rim shot] http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Ken: I recently made an error in a web booking at a Holiday Inn in Germany. I inadvertantly booked it for the night of the same day I was making the reservation - which was exactly one month from the day I intended to make them. When I received the e-mail confirmation, I noticed the error; but was already almost midnight hotel time in Germany. I called the HI reservation number; here; but was told they could do nothing. They were unwilling to contact the hotel directly.

So I called the hotel and the night clerk was not helpful; and also said they didn't need the room. When the charge appeared on my credit card, I wrote HI Guest Relations who answered that they were referring it to the hotel involved - at which I had never stayed before. Shortly afterwards I received a nice e-mail from the hotel telling me that a credit had been issued. And due to the change in the exchange rate, it was more than the original charge. Not only that I received FF miles, which stayed in my account.

There is always the exception!

I don't look for compensation or some freebies over little things that are part of travel. I get delayed, my luggage has been misplaced. Problems arrise. My airline and hotel vendors seem to want to help me. This is reasonable.

FT has helped me many times. I love this board. There are many great people and legit ideas here. When I see a my luggage was delayed what can I get? post, I just don't read it. I can't book a 0$ hotel stay. I look for what I think is good bargains and try and take advantage of them.

Most posters here are great. They are interested in better travel experiences for either business, pleasure, or both. I hope am one of these people. Great thread, but I think that most of our posters are legit people and very few are really only interested in ripping off the airlines or hotel chains.

My four cents (adjusted for inflation)

(Duplicate - sorry)



[This message has been edited by blairvanhorn (edited 05-19-2001).]

Originally posted by kokonutz:
Re: adversarial relationships with travel service providers:

At the happy hour free buffalo wing bar, I take a few wings and eat them. I dont stuff my pockets, a bag and the trunk of my car with free buffalo wings. There's a line there. And it's NOT, IMHO, a battle line.

I love this example! It's funny, but very apt.

I agree: the line exists and it is not a battle line. There are many important battles to be fought elsewhere.

I don't have a love/hate relationship with the airlines, because I save those emotions for my wife and kids!

It's more of a like/annoyed relationship.

On one hand, I'm grateful that someone at AA had the creativity (or desparation!) to initiate the FF program juggernaut. And UA (my airline o'choice!) takes great care of me on average.

But there are some paradoxes in airline policies:
- you do your homework to be an educated and savvy consumer....and you hunt down a very low fare. Then some shlub pays full Y and who gets the upgrade on a tie???? More often than not, poor shlub!
- you can't transfer, buy, barter, sell YOUR mileage, but the airlines do it with impunity with THEIR partners.
- airlines set up intricate fare rules (Sat night stay, advance purchase, etc.) and when we come up with equally intricate means of analyzing, evaluating and responding creatively to the fare restrictions (back-to-back, nesting, etc), we're considered violating the rules.
- total and utter lack of transparency of award availability and distribution; the 'gross' amounts revealed by the airlines telll us nothing significant.

The idea that 'coming clean on the boards' is the litmus test of whether one of our manuevers is a 'loophole' or an 'abuse' misses the point.

We post on FT to facilitate info (playing offense), the airlines monitor FT to protect their turf (playing defense). If the airlines let an FT rep monitor the internal communications of each airline, then I'd say, post away FTers, because there is equal flow of info going both ways- they're privy to our brainstorms and vice versa. But the reality is that the airlines are only reactive to our info, never proactive.

So, while I don't consider UA the ernemy by any stretch, I don't have a compelling need to go to WHQ in Chicago everytime I have an impure (entreprenuerial) thought about MP!

Remember gang, we are not making the FF rules, we can only respond to them. Not every FFP rule/reg is presumptively fair, right or even legal! If the rules were collaboratively created by an airline/consumer board, then I'd feel better knowing that the rules weren't rigged, arbitrary, etc. But since it isn't a democracy, we have a right, even a responsibility to behave as the loyal opposition where appropriate. The loyal opposition doesn't seek to 'BEAT' the system, it seeks to 'WORK' the system.

And 'working' the system does not imply hostility or lack of respect toward the system. I can be pro-beaubo without being anti-airline.

Finally, kokonutz, the best sign the airlines can show us that there is truly mutual respect is getting rid of the troubling- 'Other terms and conditions may apply' from their rulebook. It invites the very kind of abuse of power on the airline side that you seek to eliminate on the consumer side. That one sentence is the equivalent of FF kangaroo court...and that shows no respect to the consumer.

To reiterate, there's much more good than bad here with UA.

A USAirways CP here...

(1) About all this chatter about the $0 hotel andf the $29 airfare, I think that this board is an excellent FREE resource for the Airlines and Hotels to use in finding aberrations like this and fixing them. If United, Hilton, etc....DON'T take advantage of this FREE resource, then boo-hoo for them and let them take their lumps. Hilton's lost a boatload of business from me because of last-minute rates which won't drop from $156 to something more reasonable, even if the room goes vacant.

(2) Over on the USAirways board, there has been quite a lot of valuable discussion, mostly around things like nested trips, concatenated trips, etc...stuff that is out on the 'fringe' of fare calculations, but is a VERY REAL AND LEGITIMATE part of us doing our jobs, which involves a lot of travel. I have seen many, many more threads which have helped us 'road warriors' get a decent break than I have 'rip-off' posts.

You have to keep in mind, most of the people who post here are like TopGun - the top 1% of travelers, and 95% of that 1% are just looking for a way to make their stressful lives easier, not shaft some travel provider for the fun of it.

Just my 1 FF Mile ($0.02 as I am told)

(Fixed multiple posts - I see it wasn't just me that day...)

[This message has been edited by Surfrider (edited 05-23-2001).]

(another edit of multiple posts...argh.)


[This message has been edited by Surfrider (edited 05-23-2001).]

(Yet another multiple...geezzz.)


[This message has been edited by Surfrider (edited 05-23-2001).]

Koko...

I am unsure if the board has really got worse or not. That LH/UA loophole is pretty unethical IMO...and it has been around a long time.

My feeling is that if it is within the rules that the airline/hotel set themselves...and we can take advantage of it any way possible...than be it.

Dorian



------------------
The Global Lounge Project (https://www.quickbase.com/db/6vcfnaqu) - open source airline lounge listings - managed by Dorian
flyers'places (http://www.flyersplaces.com) - restaurant, bar & hotel tips - managed by Catman, Shareholder, Rudi & Dorian
The Star Alliance RTW Price Chart (http://www.informationlab.com/rtw.htm) - by Dorian
The Star Alliance Gold Comparison Chart (http://members.home.net/deercroft/starall01.html) - by Blondebomber

Dorian: That LH/UA loophole is pretty unethical IMO...and it has been around a long time.

Here is what I did (unethical?) before posting general hints about this on FlyerTalk in 1999 (and giving details by private emails to Senators that asked for more):

The LH people (my LH angel in downtown Zurich and her supervisor) have been informed right away (by me in person), that whenever I used a 'Senator-voucher to upgrade a LH segment' and at the same time changed my ff-program for mileage credit to UA's Mileage Plus, the miles due were never deducted from my miles&more account.

It turned out, that LH knew all about this loophole (they told me, if ever you find out a loophole that we don't know about already, we offer you a first-class 'ride' to anywhere you want) and didn't mind for the time being.

The loophole closed (about 18 months later) per dec-31-2000 (change of LH policy): no more 'Senator vouchers' but instead Senators can go 160'000 miles negativ now.

Why do Baskin-Robbins and Ben & Jerrys make so many different flavors? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Some prefer chocolate while others crave vanilla! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

To each his/her own! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Rudi,

If LH said it is fine then I guess it would fall within their 'rules'. I didn't know they actually knew about it and were okay with it.

No offense meant at all.

Dorian

Originally posted by kokonutz:
Look, I'm not a very judgmental guy. I say live and let live. I don't begrudge anyone anything they can get out of life and the last thing I want to do is impose my own warped morality on any one else.
BUT...

...have you noticed Flyertalk is becoming more and more about how to trick, deceive, and rip-off the airlines and hotels rather than how to work within the rules to maximize perks and miles/points?

I mean, ok, think back to Rudi's Guerilla Tips. Those were pretty on-the-line ethically speaking. And we've gone round and round on back-to-backs.

But I think some of the things that are being discussed lately are really over the line. How can someone in good conscience book something at $0 then extort concessions to cancel the reservation? $29? Fine. But $0? Come on, folks!!!!

How can people complain about Greenpoints changing their policy after admitting they
got them for 30K miles without buying anything (which could only be done using multiple accounts)?

How can folks take a targeted promotion as the greatest insult against them ever?

Flyertalk has been viewed for a long time as a place where rules were stretched, bent and played for absolute maximum benefit. But I'm wondering where the line is. I mean, at what point are we crossing the line into fraud?

It's a fuzzy thing. IMHO, selling upgrades, points and awards is wrong. Giving them away either with or without expectation of future reciprocal generosity, well, that's just being friendly.

But at some point it just seems to me that Flyertalk found a comfort zone across that fuzzy line.

The recent banishments notwithstanding, I just wonder whether FT has become something untoward. Have we allowed our greed to take us from maximizers to cheaters?

I dunno. I think I'll have a Red Bull and vodka and think about it some more...

What do you think?


Hmm, I can't remember all the guerilla tips, but wasn't there one in there about making charges on your credit card, taking the miles and then returning the item and cancelling the credit card. I thought that several of them crossed the line.

Its a fine line between ripping the airlines and working within the rules, especially if you consider loopholes as working within the rules. Case in point - a 1K gets downgraded on a 500 mile Shuttle flight and receives no compensation since 1K members get complimentary upgrades on Shuttle flights. Should the 1K member a) take their explanation at face value or b) request a 500 mile upgrade certificate since the Shuttle flight is less than 500 miles or c) request a one segment upgrade certificate to use on a long haul flight?

In case of upgrades, one may not be ripping off the airline, but rather other passengers who are competing for the upgrade, especially the lower tier passengers.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 05-22-2001).]

PG: that (probably slightly over the 'fine' line that you would draw) credit card tip (not from the 'geurilla series I think) was:

Buying a fully refundable international first class ticket, while the credit card (in my case Diners) did run a double points promotion, and returning the ticket after the Diners double points promotion ended (thus having been deducted afterwards only half the points originally earned) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

guerilla-tips Nostalgica

"beat the system": Introduction http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000141.html

"Beat the system - How to get through to Reservations http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000183.html

"beat the system" tip#1: watch out for "direct flights" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000139.html

"beat the system" tip#2: how to make the preassigned seating paradox work for you http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000140.html

"beat the system" tip#3: things to check when checking luggage at the curb http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000145.html

"beat the system" tip#4: the best way to pay for your ticket http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000146.html

"beat the system" tip#5: three reasons to choose the on-line connection: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000149.html

"beat the system" tip#6: loopholes in the US-domestic checked baggage rules http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000150.html

"beat the system" tip# 7: beating the automobile traffic at the airport http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000151.html

"beat the system" tip#8: advantages / disadvantages of small planes http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000152.html

"beat the system" tip#9: determine which line at Check-In is the slowest http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000154.html

"beat the system" preliminaries before tip#10: how to pick up sex objects on the plane http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000155.html

"beat the system" tip#10: how to pick up sex objects on the plane http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000156.html

"beat the system" tip#12: .... afterwards http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000157.html

"beat the system" tip#13: how to operate the call button at your seat http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000158.html

"beat the system" tip#14: why the aisle seat is probably best http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000163.html

"beat the system" tip#15: how to get out of the plane quickly http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000164.html

"beat the system"tip#16: understand the foreigner lines at Passport Control http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000172.html

"beat the system" tip#17: beat the long foreigner lines at passport
control http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000173.html

"beat the system" tip#18: how to fill out Landing Cards http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000174.html

"beat the system" tip#19: how to deal with Passport Control Staff http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000175.html

"beat the system": tip 20: find a hotel-room in a fully booked ski-resort http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000176.html

"beat the system" tip 21: tricks of an Inveterate Casual Smuggler http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000179.html

"beat the system" tip 22: how to deal with Passport Control Staff in Basket-Case Countries http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000177.html

"beat the system" tip#23: why airlines fail to announce delays adequately http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000202.html

"beat the system" tip#24: if your flight is delayed ... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000203.html

"beat the system" tip#25: All Hope Abandon, Ye Who Enter Here!
discussion: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000204.html

"beat the system" tip#26: which side to walk in the concourse http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000210.html

"beat the system" tip#27: increase your standby luck http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000218.html

"beat the system" tip#28: taking advantage of the psychologiy of the average customs officer
discussion: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000220.html

"beat the system" tip#29: how to store your luggage free or cheap http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000221.html

"beat the system" tip#30 the cheapest place to eat at the airport http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000222.html

"beat the system" tip#31: going downtown from the airport http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000223.html

"beat the system" tip#32: how to ride the plane on a transporter http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000224.html

"beat the system" tip#33: getting past the guardian angel http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000231.html

"beat the system" tip#34: sit beside an empty seat http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000228.html

"beat the system" tip#36: the profile of the best place to meet at the airport http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000282.html

"beat the system" tip#37: the proper way to Set the time to meet http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000283.html

"beating the system" tip#38: ways to improve your chances of getting a
taxi quickly discussion: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000284.html

"beating the system" tip#40: case study: taking a taxi from JFK to Manhattan http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000331.html

"beat the system" tip#41 rise above your station and ride a limousine from JFK to Manhattan http://www.talk.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000332.html

"beat the system": last tip: the best strategy for dealing with unmetered cabs http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000285.html

"beat the system": special addition for MileageAddict's kid http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000268.html

The one I refer to was in: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000529.html

My point to koko is that the line may have been crossed a long time ago, and that he/I/others may have crossed the line ourselves, so its pointless to be judgemental about others.

This is a great discussion! Regarding the $27 UA flight ... I too would not necessarily have realized that this was an error and had I known about it, and been in San Francisco already, and had time off, would have tried to do it.

My last job was at "Automaker X Credit", the captive financing arm of "Automaker X" Motor Co. (names disguised to protect the guilty ....)

There, we offered low-cost financing and sometimes pretty close to zero-cost financing. You have all seen the commercials for Automaker X Credit and others, "0.9% APR financing" and the like. When I first started there as a new finance grad, I thought that the "APR" must mean "Above Prime Rate". But it actually meant that the lender pays 0.9%, flat, (such loans are called Subordinated loans), not added as a spread to some other rate. This was incomprehensible to me, since the way that lenders make money is the spread at which they lend over what they pay to borrow. Since they pay a lot to borrow - maybe 7% or more depending on the market - I could not understand how they could actually offer loans to people at 0.9%? They are suffering a loss of 6.1%!

It turns out that the additional income to make up the cost of borrowing came from the Marketing department's budget. So ultimately XMoCo's shareholders pay this ... money is transferred from XMoCo to the Credit arm to pay Credit back for giving the low-cost loan, so Credit's profit margins are protected, and XMoCo gets the sale. It is an incentive for the borrower to use their Credit arm but also a transfer of wealth from XMoCo to the consumer, who in the end is borrowing at 0.9% so makes out like a bandit on this deal.

My question after all this rambling is, for those who think that people are taking advantage of UA for the "mistake" on the $27 fare, do they also reject the low-cost financing? Sometimes these things are not "mistakes" but planned marketing schemes. Of course, I think that the whole Hilton thing is very different from a $27 fare and would never have expected this to be honored.

PG: In the specific example to which you refer, I was downgraded LAX-LAS after having spend an HK49 to upgrade BWI-LAX-LAS. The reservation and upgrade LAX-LAS were made and confirmed well-without the 100 hour free shuttle upgrade window. Thus, one could easily (if not necessarily succesfully) argue that the downgrade was from the HK49 already surrendered, and thus should result in some compensation.

I would say that this falls well within the lines that I'm talking about. I, in fact, ecourage anyone that this happens to to request compensation.

But I do agree that it's dangerous to judge. As the saying goes, when you point a finger at someone you're also pointing three at yourself. Hence the disclaimer at the head of my original post...

[This message has been edited by kokonutz (edited 05-22-2001).]

"...so its pointless to be judgemental about others..."

Absolutely! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I just wanted to add that the reason I joined up to Flyertalk was the opportunity to read a great deal about other people's travel experiences and learn better ways of handling travel situations, booking travel, and yes, earning FF points. However I think the great advantage of this Forum is the massive cumulative experience of all those millions of miles and thousands of hours spent criss crossing the globe. I feel that discussion should not be limited to how to gain FF points, but broaden it to the actual activity that earns most people most of their points: travel.

As for the sneakyness of the Forum, why not? I am sure airline executives spend a lot of time scheming how to lure us flyers and how to make things as tricky as possible. I read through the terms and conditions for the QF FF program the other day and was amazed people are ever able to redeem points at all given all the exclusions, restrictions, conditions and qualifications. Why not give the airlines a run for their money? After all, the frequent flyer schemes were their idea in the first place.

I think FT still does a great job of knowledge exchange in the key areas about which I'm most concerned. (Reviews of airports, hotels, and cities I plan to visit; ways to earn bonus points/miles; methods of extracting humane customer service; etc.) The Buzz is currently littered with some disgusting topics (i.e., "The List"), but overall, I think FT still does a great service to the traveling community.

The noise-to-content ratio is much lower on the individual airline and hotel boards. That's where I spend most of my time, whether posting or just lurking. And I'd say a very small percentage of the posts there involve scamming the system.

The biggest problem in the travel industry is how little respect exists between the airlines and their customers. Right now, it's not much. I have elite status on three airlines, and it's sad that the #1 benefit of that status, in my mind, is simply "they treat me like a human being". Not upgrades, not double miles - just the ability to check a bag at the airport, get a decent coach seat, or call on the phone to ask any simple question. Thus, we, the travelers, will do anything we can to reach the elite status - whether ethical or not. I don't believe this is right, but I believe both customers and airlines need to recognize the major problems that exist and improve the overall travel experience - even for people who aren't at the elite level.

This weekend is roughly my first anniversary of starting to participate in FT. After a year of contemplation, I believe that in an ideal world, FT has a trifold purpose:

1. Teach us how to ethically maximize our point-/status- earning potential (e.g. Hilton's 50k Gold promo);
2. Provide a forum for customer service issues that relate to elite status (UA's "Employee Class", the whole DL SWU issue, AA's VIP2 vs. VIPOW), and to a lesser extent general service issues (tri-color pasta, bad AA domestic F seats);
3. Provide a community where like-minded mileage/status junkies can hang out and become friends.

Unfortunately, as FT has grown, we do not all have the same definition of "ethics" which puts point 1 in jeopardy (the $0 hotel nights come to mind). And we have been infected with a few personalities that see/saw FT as a place to boost their egos, rendering point #3 close to dead. Therefore, FT naturally evolves into a more general customer service issues site and less of a mileage and status site.

The people whom I respected as a newbie a year ago as being able to balance all three points above (Rudi, PremEx, Punki, BostonBoy, QuietLion) are all either gone or have severely curtailed their activities.

On the American board where I spend most of my time, we are fortunate that RDURES1 was able to bring over some of her favorite customers before she was squashed into submission by the forces of evil at American. We have been fortunate that there has been little of the chaos that some of the subboards with more, um, unique, personalities have endured. That's why I continue to actively participate there, to help set the tone.

I figure that by taking actions that could not even be possibly construed as unethical, I have saved/earned over $3000 from the knowledge I have gathered from FT, including over $1000 in the last month. I have also met some wonderful people, some in person.

I really want FT to survive and I think it will not degenerate down to the level of rec.travel.air. I think Randy has started to realize the gravity of the situation, and I hope he continues to be proactive about it. I would like to think that we can be self-policing with regards to ethics, but I suspect that the egos of some members cannot handle that concept.

I am very glad that you started this thread.

I am one who just draws the line at a $0 charge and then expects to get something for nothing. However, I was under the belief that that was exactly the idea that the "List" was supposed to represent, that those who were like-minded on that account would join and that those who did not feel in good conscience that it was either ethical or appropriate, would not. Obviously, I fall on the other end of that page. I hope that those on the "List" only limit their activities to such $0 fares, since it does appear counter to the credo to FT for them to not post legitimate travel finds for the rest of us.