Southwest Rapid Rewards - Wish WN had first class?

Sometimes I wish that Southwest had a first class section. I have always loved flying them, but then had to start to fly into IAD, as well as some international travel, so I jumped to United. And I got spoiled - with the treatment, the upgrades, the schedule, and even lately, the pricing is very competitive to WN. UA runs $91 MCI - ORD, and WN is $85 MCI - MDW, but I can jump into First Class on UA. It's worth it. I only use WN anymore when UA is way more expensive on the same routes, or when I burn a RR.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?

Not me. There may be other reasons not to fly Southwest, and I certainly don't fly them all the time, but this isn't one.

I never fly first class on any other airline, so why should I care that Southwest doesn't have it? If Southwest had, say, ten first class seats per plane, that would be ten seats I would never be able to sit in.

I realize I'm not the typical flyertalker.

Ed

The nice thing about one class of service is you never feel like you're being treated like cattle compared to the people in first class.

Plus the fact that WN flight attendants make a trip very enjoyable.

.....

Conceivably, a carrier makes money on First Class seats in one of two ways. You either sell them at face value or you make them a perk that are reserved for your best Customers thereby (hopefully) retaining their loyalty.

Since Southwest does not bestow status on our Customers, we would have no choice but to hope to make money on First Class by selling the bigger seats for a higher price. There may very well be a portion of our flyer base willing to pony up for the extra room, especially as our average stage length gets longer and longer. However, as we all know, airplane seats, especially First Class seats are perishable. Floor space in an aircraft cabin is like precious real estate. Bigger seats up front means less room in back leaving airlines with a tough choice...either reduce the overall number of coach seats or reduce the seat pitch to accomodate an F cabin. Fewer seats means higher prices. The same number of seats in the same space means a more cramped coach cabin. Either way, everybody except the fortunate few upfront loses. That flys in the face of the egalitarian nature of the way Southwest chooses to run this airline. The only other option is to begin assigning status and using the F product as a carrot dangled to entice flyers to buy more full fare tickets. Again, this goes against the way Southwest likes to do business. Finally, we have to consider the logistics. The only way a product such as First Class can be used as an effective marketing tool is if it is available across your system. For Southwest, that means reconfiguring over 400 aircraft a massive(and expensive) undertaking to be sure. Reconfiguring select planes for "F intensive" routes does not work because our airplanes don't flow through the system that way. Monkeying with aircraft scheduling to put specific planes on specific routes hamstrings flexibility thereby increasing costs. In the end, I think the best thing for Southwest in the near term is to continue to stick what they do best...offering a good domestic coach product at a fair price. Now IFE...that I think, may be a very different story.

The nice thing about one class of service is you never feel like you're being treated like cattle compared to the people in first class.

Plus the fact that WN flight attendants make a trip very enjoyable.


I have to agree with this. I’ve flown nothing but FC for the last decade on DL. The day I end up in the back of the bus with DL, I’ll be a very unhappy camper.
But on WN everybody is treated the same. I had trouble with that concept my first few trips but am honestly glad I don’t have to play FC bingo on WN. It’s fine if you win but a real bummer if you lose.

His response was something to the effect that to him first class treatment meant:

1. A low fare
2. A smile and a quick drink in the air
3. On time arrival
4. Your bags arrive when you do

4. Your bags arrive when you do

Consistently rapid arrival of bags is one of most remarkable aspects of the WN operation. I can't imagine how they can move those bags so quickly that if you dawdle a bit your bag beats you to the carousel. And then there was the time I checked a bag at the counter 13 minutes before departure and it made the flight. Other airlines are nowhere near this speed with bags.

Consistently rapid arrival of bags is one of most remarkable aspects of the WN operation. I can't imagine how they can move those bags so quickly that if you dawdle a bit your bag beats you to the carousel. And then there was the time I checked a bag at the counter 13 minutes before departure and it made the flight. Other airlines are nowhere near this speed with bags.


I'm sure our hardworking ramp agents appreciate that their hard work does not go unnoticed. It really isn't rocket science. All it takes is a bit of hustle. If you look out the window the next time you arrive on a Southwest flight you will notice how it all comes together. Sparing you some of the more boring details the ramp agents know in advance when a flight is inbound and that it's time to take the last bite of sandwhich and hustle out to the ramp. As soon as the engines are shut down, the bin doors are open and the download process begins. Once the last bag is off the aircraft they are off to the carousel. These are the moments when you can see why when possible Southwest avoids sprawling congested aiports...baggage carts get caught in traffic jams too!

It's all about people knowing their job and more importantly doing their job. The agents know that sauntering out to meet a flight at ones own leisure is something that simply is not tolerated. The reason Southwest works and that everyone and I do mean, everyone knows that an airplane sitting on the ground is not making Southwest Airlines any money. Hire the right people, set up a generous profit sharing system that instills in them that more money in Southwest's pockets is more money in their pockets and they will move heaven and earth to get the job done.

Finally, the reason your bag can make it to a flight checked 13 minutes before departure is because every hand that touches that bag knows a potential misconnect bag is a potential lost Customer. It really isn't any more difficult than that.

every hand that touches that bag knows a potential misconnect bag is a potential lost Customer.

While that may be what employees are told in training, the reality is a misconnected bag often carries a larger liability than a misconnected passenger.

For example, the delivery fee on a bag that doesn't make a connection is cash out of the airline's pocket, with potential further liabilities for incidentals if the delay is significant. Whereas a pax who misconnects is simply placed on another open flight.

Awesome dialgoue everyone - I didn't realize my little post would generate all the comments! As a FT newbie, I love this community!

I completely agree about the benefits of WN, and why I do fly them. I just have to say that when others are paying for the plane ticket, the benefits of some of the larger airlines in regards to F is pretty sweet. I am completely faithful to WN, and fly them when I can, but UA has been very good to me also.

I'm certainly not saying I wish WN had a F cabin - that will and should not ever happen - I've read NUTS and know that would not work in their structure. Sometimes I just wish they did - the n/s flight from LAX to MCI is pretty long, and a F cabin is nice...

Thanks everyone - I really look forward to logging on and checking the forums...

H*S

While I very much enjoy flying DL F (and have had amazing luck on my ATL-HOU segments this yr; at least the ones which have an F cabin), I really think that WN would not be WN if it were to have an F cabin. So many details about WN all go together to make it the profit-machine that it is, it seems to me that it would be impossible to carve out specific and significant parts of the operation to change. Just as WN may never fly trans-oceanic routes (even 738s and 739s cannot handle that distance) due to the maintenance costs of being able to service jumbo jets, it may never have an F due to all of the transition and ongoing costs of supporting an F cabin.

Just MHO.

I've been saying on my most recent flights that I hope to get upgraded to WN first class. Because WN does have first class, contrary to popular belief. They're the exit row seats! :cool:

That flys in the face of the egalitarian nature of the way Southwest chooses to run this airline.

Oh, please. :rolleyes:

SW isn't egalitarian. They may have once been, but as I said in another thread, the recently enacted airport-specific bonuses, the targeted bonuses, the ding-bonuses, the differentiation between SWBIZ and regular booking bonuses, etc, all reveal that SW is no longer an egalitarian airline.

Consistently rapid arrival of bags is one of most remarkable aspects of the WN operation. I can't imagine how they can move those bags so quickly that if you dawdle a bit your bag beats you to the carousel. And then there was the time I checked a bag at the counter 13 minutes before departure and it made the flight. Other airlines are nowhere near this speed with bags.

You obviously have never been to Oakland on a Sunday night. It took almost an hour for my bags to arrive (which is why I generally never check them).

To be fair, I think WN's operation is one of the best in the business. WN provides a quality product and delivers what is promised. Because I mostly fly only short-haul on WN, I don't miss F at all. What I miss are the $29 intra-California fares - but I really can't even complain about that considering that I used to pay $150 RT on US and UA in the late '80s (before WN ramped up service in CA). If it weren't for WN, I'm sure we would be paying even higher fares like the NE shuttle customers.

I'm glad WN stays out of the F game as well.

Would WN have FA's in the F cabin that were dressed like real FA's and not Kinkos staff? Would F pax have any IFE? Would FA's still sing in F(hope not)?

Putting F seats on WN flights is like opening a WalMart on Rodeo Blvd, or slapping a Rolls Royce emblem on your Dodge.

WN is a hight-frequency cattle hauler. That's their game, and they do it well. Premium service wouldn't be a good fit for WN's "everyday is casual Friday" model.

The nice thing about one class of service is you never feel like you're being treated like cattle compared to the people in first class.


:rolleyes:

Yeah, you just feel like cattle along with everyone else.

Actually, I’m glad that WN does not have first class. Because I know how much first class costs to operate...


And how much is that?

..I know WN will be around in a few years while several majors won’t.

So you're saying that AA,UA,CO,DL,NW,AS,HP are all going to be gone in a few years leaving WN to roam the skies as the king?

Besides the absolute ridiculous nature of that comment, it would be the worst thing for aviation in this country. The idea of having WN as the nation's top flag carrier is downright embarassing. Having premium intl pax connect on WN would be a shame to this country.

I know you folks luv WN, but do you have to be so far in left field with the comments.


I realize I'm not the typical flyertalker.


That's for sure. You must luv Y. :p

So you're saying that AA,UA,CO,DL,NW,AS,HP are all going to be gone in a few years leaving WN to roam the skies as the king?


He didn't say they were ALL going to be gone in a few years. Don't try to be so argumentative that you read things into other people's comments.
The fact is, several of them are in trouble and may fall, as many have done in recent years.
Lighten up.

He said several majors wont be around in a few years. How else do you interpret that?

I'm glad WN stays out of the F game as well.

Good for you. Here's a cookie. You can put it on your ad-laden HP tray table.

Putting F seats on WN flights is like opening a WalMart on Rodeo Blvd, or slapping a Rolls Royce emblem on your Dodge.

You must be drunk or high. Nothing about domestic F is akin to Rodeo Boulevard or a Rolls Royce.

Having premium intl pax connect on WN would be a shame to this country.

Are you French? It's plainly obvious that we as a nation could not care less about what the rest of the world thinks, especially snobby premium international passengers. They can fly WN or even FL like Elton John and LOVE IT. :)

The historical way that majors will disappear is through merger, in which case they don't really disappear. Things are different now: carriers need to reduce their liabilities to become solvent, and until they go through bankruptcy and renege on generous retirement promises they typically are not worth taking over. This is an unpleasant fact.

Because of the need for bankruptcy, mergers are less likely than acquisition of assets by surviving carriers, namely those who have already been through bankruptcy. All the assets will survive, but all the companies will not. The prices the traveling public pays will be the same regardless, because the supply and demand balance depends on the number of seats more than the number of airlines. It is inevitable that prices will be MUCH higher in a few years, when airlines stop pricing below cost. Southwest's profits will skyrocket, and we'll all complain how they have become a traditional carrier, gouging us.

In summary, I don't know whether one brand name or several will vanish, but I don't think it matters very much to customers who don't have huge mileage balances to lose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suranyi
"I realize I'm not the typical flyertalker."

That's for sure. You must luv Y.

It's not that I love Y. I don't fly enough to get status on any airlines (I wouldn't get status even if I concentrated all my flying on ONE airline.) So I don't get a choice. I sit in Y, or I pay for an upgrade, either with real money, or in miles. And paying for an upgrade just isn't worth it, to me. I'd rather take two trips with the same amount of money and/or miles, than one -- seat comfort is a secondary consideration. It's precisely because I DON'T fly as much as most of you that I want to fly MORE. If I paid for upgrades I would fly less.

Ed

I think having F class seats in WN is a bad idea.

Imagine all the threads of people complaining about not getting upgrades :p

Reason they are successful, is that they keep it simple ;)

Good for you. Here's a cookie. You can put it on your ad-laden HP tray table.

There are no ad's on HP's F trays.



You must be drunk or high. Nothing about domestic F is akin to Rodeo Boulevard or a Rolls Royce.


It's obvious you've never flown on UA's PS flights, AA's widebody transcons, or 777 transition routes.


Are you French?


No, but I've been there numerous times. Are you insinuating that all French are snobs?


It's plainly obvious that we as a nation could not care less about what the rest of the world thinks,


Brilliant. You just smeared the entire country as having one of the elements of being a snob.


especially snobby premium international passengers


There's nothing snobby about wanting to fly in a premium cabin. There's definitely nothing wrong with not wanting to fly half way around the world only to connect on WN to play the cattle-chute lotto, and be jammed up with WN's "elite" pax who apparently "don't care what the world thinks" about their hygiene.

Guys, I appreciate your efforts not to cross the line into a flame war. I really do. But is it really necessary to push the limits of forum etiquette if you don't have useful information to contribute?

Would WN have FA's in the F cabin that were dressed like real FA's and not Kinkos staff? ...........................

Putting F seats on WN flights is like opening a WalMart on Rodeo Blvd, or slapping a Rolls Royce emblem on your Dodge....................................

WN is a hight-frequency cattle hauler........................................

ROTFLMAO!!! You're too funny man.................. :D

Deleted by moderator. Play nice or don't play here.

Oh, please. :rolleyes:

SW isn't egalitarian. They may have once been, but as I said in another thread, the recently enacted airport-specific bonuses, the targeted bonuses, the ding-bonuses, the differentiation between SWBIZ and regular booking bonuses, etc, all reveal that SW is no longer an egalitarian airline.

By that same logic, the SWA route system is patently unfair because each station enjoys different levels of non-stop and connecting service. I used the word "egalitarian" to refer to the fact that thus far, Southwest has eschewed assigning status. I apologize, if I did not make myself clear.

I'm glad WN stays out of the F game as well.

I'm sure the CEO's of the Legacy carriers share your sentiments but for very different reasons.

Would WN have FA's in the F cabin that were dressed like real FA's and not Kinkos staff

I would love to have one of those FedExKinko's smocks...just think of all the peanuts I could jam in there. We SWA F/As have FAA issued credentials just like the stews that fly the big iron. When the "real" Flight Attendants snicker at our uniforms on the hotel shuttle, we just ask them how their profit sharing accounts are doing...you'd be surprised how quickly that shuts them up.

Would F pax have any IFE? Would FA's still sing in F(hope not)?

Southwest Flight Attendants will always sing.

Putting F seats on WN flights is like opening a WalMart on Rodeo Blvd, or slapping a Rolls Royce emblem on your Dodge.

Judging by the comments over on the legacy carrier boards, their F product is missing the mark badly and often. What's worse? Not offering an F product or promising one and then failing to deliver?

WN is a high-frequency cattle hauler. That's their game, and they do it well. Premium service wouldn't be a good fit for WN's "everyday is casual Friday" model.

When did it become okay to refer to acutal human beings as "cattle"?

There's nothing snobbish about first class. There may be snobby people sitting in those seats but there are plenty sitting in Y too.

FC is no different than any other product that people pay a premium for. No one on this forum is any different than people who wish to be in first class. They simply put their money into other premium products whether its leather seats for their cars, flat-panel TV's, or a nice designer outfit.

I'm not sure I can think of anything that goes against WN's philosophy more than having a first class section. I think they would get assigned seats and RJs before first. (I think they actually will have assigned seats in a few years as there has been some buzz about that in the media).

Deleted by moderator.

Amazing! As a FT newbie... not impressed. (Especially since nsx has had to delete and modify many posts)

Anyway, I agree with all of you about WN F Class - I'm still curious and enjoying the good diaglogue about the airline...

H*S

Deleted by moderator.

:rolleyes:

Please don't base your impression on the WN forum based on this thread. I believe this is the first thread in which nsx has actually had to delete posts.

Of all the FT forums, I have found the WN forum to be the most friendly and positive of them all. Moreover, we are fortunate enough to have a few stellar WN employees here who are always quick to offer advice and information. It is unfortunate that we seem to get a few posters from time to time who are bitter about WN for whatever reason and like to get a rise out of us, but that's not representative of this forum as a whole.

I'll admit that WN has done a few things lately that have made many of us question our loyalty, but I think SWAInflt said it best: "What's worse? Not offering an F product or promising one and then failing to deliver?"

People can definitely debate as to whether WN offers or promises enough to its FF, but it's tough to claim WN fails to deliver what it promises.

Amazing! As a FT newbie... not impressed. (Especially since nsx has had to delete and modify many posts)

Anyway, I agree with all of you about WN F Class - I'm still curious and enjoying the good diaglogue about the airline...

H*S

Although I’m generally not in favor of WN having a FC section...as I posted earlier....today it would have been welcome. I flew LAS/MDW and was “lucky” enough to score an aisle on the two seat-exit row. A little old lady...had to be in her 80’s...took the seat next to me and I thanked my lucky stars that it was she rather than a Dick Butkus-type.
Shortly after takeoff she started jabbing me in the ribs with her needle-sharp elbows and it never stopped until we arrived.
I was praying she’d quit fidgeting, fall asleep, read or whatever but no such luck. Just the constant flailing of her appendages.
Maybe she had Parkinson’s or something but all I know is I’m sore tonight...:(.
One bennie of FC is that there is sufficient separation of seats that one doesn’t have to deal with physical contact from your seatmate.

I really admire Southwest and their business model. They certainly aren't suffering due to lack of "First Class." (Quick, name a profitable domestic U.S. airline with First Class!)

Herb is still correct, bless him. The most important airline service is time and predictability. If Southwest gets someone (and their bags) from point A to point B quickly, efficiently, and reliably, with reasonable comfort, that's the whole game. All that comes at a fair price -- even a higher one occasionally -- but never an extortionary fare.

Oh, and the whole operation is simple to understand. I'm not nickel-and-dimed, and I can actually use the award travel (if I'm genuinely loyal).

There are only minor tweaks I'd suggest:

1. Keep adding cities and frequencies at a prudent pace. I would suggest STP (St. Paul Holman Field) as your next expansion. STP has a lovely 6711 foot runway with ILS to both ends, it's smack in the middle of downtown St. Paul, had airline service up until the 1990s (Chicago Express to/from Midway), and it does have a small passenger terminal (although you would need to build a jetway). Start with four flights each way to/from Midway and see how it goes. It's about time the citizens of the Twin Cities enjoyed Southwest's low fares, and STP is the way to do it.

Similarly, can you get into FTY or PDK (Atlanta market)? That's a big, gaping hole right now.

2. Lobby Congress for a phase-out of the Wright Amendment. In particular, why can't Southwest sell tickets for existing Wright-compliant itineraries to/from Dallas Love Field? That makes no sense whatsoever, and Congress should let you do that -- and would have no plausible reason for why you can't. I think you're already lobbying Congress, and we'll support you in that, so good show.

3. Put staggered seating in a couple airplanes as a trial and see how it goes. (Staggered seating is where people are not seated elbow-to-elbow, where each seat-aisle is slightly diagonal.) Do it such that the aisle seat is slightly forward and the window seat is slightly rearward. May actually speed up ingress/egress, and it would improve passenger comfort without reducing seat count.

4. Try to get "underseat" floor space for the front seats -- "cubbyholes" underneath the front closets and such. Those seats slow down boarding for people trying to find overhead bin space.

5. To keep the gum wrappers and waste out of the seatback pockets, and to speed up cleaning during turnaround, try a (sturdy) mesh seatback pocket instead of an opaque one.

6. Put a wastebasket at the end of the jetway. (I'm often trying to toss a coffee cup or something.)

1. Keep adding cities and frequencies at a prudent pace. I would suggest STP (St. Paul Holman Field) as your next expansion. STP has a lovely 6711 foot runway with ILS to both ends, it's smack in the middle of downtown St. Paul, had airline service up until the 1990s (Chicago Express to/from Midway), and it does have a small passenger terminal (although you would need to build a jetway).

That may not be necessary. Southwest has had a big operation at Burbank Airport for many years, and it doesn't have jetways. In fact, I like flying into and out of Burbank because they put stairs by both the forward and rear doors, so boarding and deboarding is especially fast.

Ed

I'm not sure I can think of anything that goes against WN's philosophy more than having a first class section. I think they would get assigned seats and RJs before first. (I think they actually will have assigned seats in a few years as there has been some buzz about that in the media).

That's right on the money. It's a trifecta: an F cabin would run counter to WN's operating efficiencies, marketing and corporate culture. There is no reason for WN to do this, nor is there any reason to lament that they don't. Let the legacies handle the premium cabins, and let the LCCs do what they do best -- cheap, convenient basic travel.

By the way, why are some folks so worked up about this question? It's not like this is some big picture, fight to the death issue like airline employees taking upgrades away from frequent flyers.

That may not be necessary. Southwest has had a big operation at Burbank Airport for many years, and it doesn't have jetways. In fact, I like flying into and out of Burbank because they put stairs by both the forward and rear doors, so boarding and deboarding is especially fast.

The weather in "Beatiful Downtown Burbank" makes jetways optional. The Twin Cities' weather would make jetways a must.

I am glad WN doesn't have a first class. One of my big pet peeves about flying in coach on a legacy on, say, a 757 is when the jetway attaches between classes and, upon deplaning, the FAs physically block coach pax from exiting until all the first class pax have deplaned.

As one who flies maybe 20 times a year and personally pays for all flights, though I'm often reimbursed for a few of them, I can think of better ways to spend, say, $500 than for a larger seat, premium boarding, a few drinks and a sandwich pack on a three or four hour flight. That $500 can get me 25 lap dances in Sin City :). If I were a FT typical "very frequent flyer" or had an unlimited corporate expense account as my dad did, I would probably feel differently.

I am glad WN doesn't have a first class. One of my big pet peeves about flying in coach on a legacy on, say, a 757 is when the jetway attaches between classes and, upon deplaning, the FAs physically block coach pax from exiting until all the first class pax have deplaned.


What's the big deal. If the 757 is bridged in the front, people in Y have to wait anyway.


As one who flies maybe 20 times a year and personally pays for all flights, though I'm often reimbursed for a few of them, I can think of better ways to spend, say, $500 than for a larger seat, premium boarding, a few drinks and a sandwich pack on a three or four hour flight. That $500 can get me 25 lap dances in Sin City :). If I were a FT typical "very frequent flyer" or had an unlimited corporate expense account as my dad did, I would probably feel differently.

You can keep the skanky lapdances. :p As someone who flies mostly transcons & intl 30-40 times per year, that larger seat becomes a godsend by the end of the year. I couldn't imagine returning to the west coast from the middle east or Africa, only to connect to a WN flight, as you'll most likely be in the B,C line. Not standing in a long line to checkin and complitmentary lounge access help keep me sane during all these flights.

Even if I'm not in F/J, I almost always get an exit row. As a ExPlat, I'll always be boarding before the hoardes.

It is inevitable that prices will be MUCH higher in a few years, when airlines stop pricing below cost. Southwest's profits will skyrocket, and we'll all complain how they have become a traditional carrier, gouging us.


Really? WN prices below cost. WN prices SOME product below cost, just like the majors. If they didn't, you'd be paying a minimum of $400 to fly coast to coast RT. It can be argued that the CSM on a transcon is less than the published CSM and that the CSM on a short-haul (intra-CA, LAX-LAS) is higher than the average CSM. Meaning, I don't think WN makes any money on the intra-CA $29 fares and doesn't lose as much on the sub-$400 transcon fares than we think.

Besides, when they "stop pricing below cost," fewer seats will get filled. They'll try to figure out a way to generate revenue with EVERY seat, and that will require dumping some seats. The trick will be then as it is now, to maximize revenue from every seat.

You can keep the skanky lapdances. :p As someone who flies mostly transcons & intl 30-40 times per year, that larger seat becomes a godsend by the end of the year.

For the record, I too would rather have the 25 skanky lapdances in Vegas than fly F for a 3-4 hour flight. :cool:

If we're talking about a flight under two hours, I just don't mind if I...

-- board last
-- end up with a middle seat in back
-- am among the last to disembark

I work really hard to get upgrades and premium cabin awards for intercontinental flights, but my requirements for short flights are few.

If we're talking about a flight under two hours, I just don't mind if I...

-- board last
-- end up with a middle seat in back
-- am among the last to disembark


What a way to aim low. :p Even on short flights I always try to find a way to board early even on airlines where I have no status. I avoid middle seats like the ebola virus(nothing like having two people cough and sneeze on you), and usually sit no further back than the exit rows.


I work really hard to get upgrades and premium cabin awards for intercontinental flights, but my requirements for short flights are few.

I squeeze as many upgrades from the system as I can, short flights or long. No sense in sitting in Y if you don't have to.

For the record, I too would rather have the 25 skanky lapdances in Vegas than fly F for a 3-4 hour flight.

Lapdances in LAS are boring. If you said CUN ^ , I may agree.

Lapdances in LAS are boring. If you said CUN ^ , I may agree.
Can't speak with any personal experience, but I hear BKK is the best.

Now we're really OT!

But we're not fighting. Lapdances being people together. :D

As someone who flies mostly transcons & intl 30-40 times per year, that larger seat becomes a godsend by the end of the year. I couldn't imagine returning to the west coast from the middle east or Africa, only to connect to a WN flight, as you'll most likely be in the B,C line. Not standing in a long line to checkin and complitmentary lounge access help keep me sane during all these flights.

Even if I'm not in F/J, I almost always get an exit row. As a ExPlat, I'll always be boarding before the hoardes.

I agree with all this, yet I continue to wonder why this debate has to be between WN and HP.

HP is downright NASTY. I'd rather fly WN by any stretch. Even HP F isn't much better other than the pre-departure drink. And WN Y is more comfortable than HP Y on like aircraft. And WN's bins hold rollerboards wheels in/out on like aircraft. And WN's snacks are better.

If you want to flaunt the benefits of a robust international airline mileage program with international alliances, choose something from Star Alliance or maybe OneWorld. Not the pathetic wannabe HP - yeah Royal Jordanian - raise the roof!

And comparing WN to anybody based on an example of connecting from International travel is a farcical example. Compare WN to others on more mainstream categories, and they will fare pretty well.

WN is a good airline that unfortunately no longer has a competitive rewards program.

yet I continue to wonder why this debate has to be between WN and HP.

It wasn't. However, I see you're trying to make it so.

HP is downright NASTY.

Please. The filthiest plane I've ever been on was on WN to LAS . I have flown all of the major carriers at some point along with quite a few foreign carriers, and I have never seen a plane in such a downright disgusting state when boarding passengers. Quite frankly, this plane was unfit for travel. The only thing stopping me from getting off that plane was the fact that I had a F LAS-LGA flight that same day.

The amount of crumbs smashed into the carpet, spilled drink stains, used napkins/tissues and cups strewn about was simply unacceptable. I was utterly shocked, and so were a few other people. This includes a passenger a few rows behind me who found a used diaper in the seat back. As far as I know, it sat in the seat back until sometime just after boarding was complete.

Fortunately for me I had my anti-bacterial wipes in my carry-on bag, and was able to wipe down my seat and area. One FA had the nerve to roll her eyes at me as if she couldn't see the filth around her.

Short of leaving feces in the aisle, I don't see how a plane can get any dirtier.

So no WN fans can talk to me about dirty planes.

If you want to flaunt the benefits of a robust international airline mileage program with international alliances, choose something from Star Alliance or maybe OneWorld. Not the pathetic wannabe HP - yeah Royal Jordanian - raise the roof!

You seem to ignore the fact that HP partners/interlines with...

BA/VS - Europe, Africa, Middle East, Asia, India
NW - Europe, Asia, Caribbean, India
HA - Hawaii, Australia
RJ - Middle East, SE Asia, N. Africa, India


Even though HP isn't a member of OW or *A(yet), I can create itineraries to almost anywhere in the world and earn miles.

How many RR credits do you earn for flights to India?

That being said, I wasn't refering to HP on my returns from intl flights. I'm usually on AA to/from intl flights where I enjoy all the benefits of complimentary F, intl OW club access, and domestic AC access. I fly HP predominantly for my intra-west flights like PHX-SFO.

And comparing WN to anybody based on an example of connecting from International travel is a farcical example. Compare WN to others on more mainstream categories, and they will fare pretty well.

:rolleyes:

First you try to trash HP's lack of being in an alliance, but somehow defend's WN lack of ability to connect pax to intl traffic? Yeah, farcical.

What a way to aim low...

I think you're taking short flights a bit too seriously. You get in, you get out. You barely notice you were in an airplane.

I think you're taking short flights a bit too seriously. You get in, you get out. You barely notice you were in an airplane.
For a lot of people, sitting F is serious business. They take it very seriously that they must get on first so that the normal peons that come on later will ooogle and "ooooh" and "aaahhhhh" the 1st Class passengers with envy. That's the whole point of flying F class for them.

Just between you and me, I think those types of people lack self-esteem and they need to be ooogled constantly just to make themselves feel better. ;)

Sometimes a bigger seat is just a bigger seat. There are plenty of FTers who are obsessed with getting F or C seats, and I'm sure very few of them do it for any other reason.

As to elitism, some of us are superior because we don't feel superior. :D

Sometimes a bigger seat is just a bigger seat. There are plenty of FTers who are obsessed with getting F or C seats, and I'm sure very few of them do it for any other reason.

good point, nsx... in fact, i'm a 235lb guy - wide shouldered too - so F is MUCH more comfortable (espcially when i'm next to other dick butkis') - so for me F is more enjoyable because i'm not a small guy, but sure, it also is a good reward for as much as i fly... (and when i'm flying for business and have a tight connection... OR a meeting to be at, its nice to get off the plane first..)

just my thoughts, folks.

H*S

It wasn't. However, I see you're trying to make it so. (re. WN v. HP) For 2 reasons - same hubs, and your username. :p

Please. The filthiest plane I've ever been on was on WN to LAS . I wasn't simply referring to HP's planes, but rather their entire operation, website, FF program, non-user-friendly aircraft, and policies.


You seem to ignore the fact that HP partners/interlines with...

BA/VS - Europe, Africa, Middle East, Asia, India
NW - Europe, Asia, Caribbean, India
HA - Hawaii, Australia
RJ - Middle East, SE Asia, N. Africa, India


Even though HP isn't a member of OW or *A(yet), I can create itineraries to almost anywhere in the world and earn miles.

How many RR credits do you earn for flights to India? Don't know why the obsession with India, but on my trip to Malaysia from the West Coast a month or so ago I was happy to choose the Star Alliance. Let's see, on HP I'd have to pick BA via LHR and have to buy a premium fare to earn the miles? No thanks. I'd rather ride SQ's A345 service. :cool:

And what you didn't say is mileage accumulation is restricted on all those partners to higher fares. I can earn UA miles on CONSOLIDATOR fares flown on LH.

WN is a domestic airline that capitalizes on short-haul traffic - that's where I use them and it fits the bill. Now that they killed their FF program I need to seek alternatives.

First you try to trash HP's lack of being in an alliance, but somehow defend's WN lack of ability to connect pax to intl traffic? Yeah, farcical.

No need to trash the trash. HP is neither a LCC nor a big-boy. It can't match WN's customer-friendly policies like zero-penalty cancel/rebook, nor is it robust enough a program nor airline to compete with the *A or 1W carriers. But I have their card in case I ever find myself staying at a Circus-Circus.

Back on topic - I'd far prefer WN to reinstate their first-class RR program rather than chase a few first-class seats.

good point, nsx... in fact, i'm a 235lb guy - wide shouldered too - so F is MUCH more comfortable (espcially when i'm next to other dick butkis') - so for me F is more enjoyable because i'm not a small guy, but sure, it also is a good reward for as much as i fly... (and when i'm flying for business and have a tight connection... OR a meeting to be at, its nice to get off the plane first..)

just my thoughts, folks.

H*S

Now that I can understand. At 5'10" and 162 lbs., I'm pretty comfortable in a coach seat. If I were to bulk up at the gym and grow a few inches taller, I might have a different perspective on this.

I wasn't simply referring to HP's planes, but rather their website...


You have got to be kidding. WN's site looks like it was designed by grade school kids.

Besides HP's new site design will be online sometime later this year. It will have the same look & feel as their vacations (https://www.americawestvacations.com) page(so I'm told).


Don't know why the obsession with India,...


Because it's a fairly long flight, but you can get there using or earning HP miles on NW,VS, or BA.


...but on my trip to Malaysia from the West Coast a month or so ago I was happy to choose the Star Alliance.


You're comparing one smaller airline to an entire alliance. Brilliant. :rolleyes: Go back and reread my post. I'm comparing WN and HP's partnerships and ability to move pax throughout the world.

Besides, HP may be a *A member soon.


Let's see, on HP I'd have to pick BA via LHR and have to buy a premium fare to earn the miles? No thanks. I'd rather ride SQ's A345 service. :cool:


:rolleyes:

This shows me you don't know what you're talking about. NW flies to SIN, albeit via NRT, and you don't have to buy a premium fare. All fares that earn miles on NW will earn miles on HP. There are a few HP'ers that were doing $400 MR's to Asia on NW.

And even though one can't earn HP miles on SQ I can still interline from my PHX-LAX HP flights so I won't have to worry about lugging my bags. WN can't even provide it's members this feature.


And what you didn't say is mileage accumulation is restricted on all those partners to higher fares.

Again wrong. NW,VS, RJ, and HA all earn 100% miles on Q/L/S coach fares. BA is the only one that earns 25% on discount economy, but that has more to do with BA's stinginess not HP. EC members earn the same amount.


WN is a domestic airline that capitalizes on short-haul traffic - that's where I use them and it fits the bill.


Whose program get's you nowhere. Even in that context, HP flies many of the same routes as WN in the west, yet for often the same price, I get upgrades, and miles towards real redemption. I use HP in the same way you use WN, but despite all your comments HP gives me more options should I need them.

Enjoy the BUR-LIT rewards.


No need to trash the trash.


LOL! Hello, pot? This is the kettle. LOL!


HP is neither a LCC...


Apparently, you're one of those that believes a LCC must offer stipped down service and no perks. Low Cost Carrier means just that. The carriers costs are low. Nowhere in that definition does it say all coach, peanuts for food, or piss-poor rewards.


It can't match WN's customer-friendly policies like zero-penalty cancel/rebook....


To say that HP or any airline can't is a fallacy. You've been drinking the Brown Kool-Aid for too long. At one time HP didn't have a change/rebook fee.


...nor is it robust enough a program nor airline to compete with the *A or 1W carriers.


Duhhhh! How do you expect an airline the size of HP to fly the same amount of routes as AA or UA. The point is that although being smaller than WN, they have a more global reach through partnering and/or interlining.

And even thought I can earn HP miles on SQ, I can still


But I have their card in case I ever find myself staying at a Circus-Circus.


or the Arizona Biltmore, Hilton HGV, Luxor, W Hotels, Westin, St. Regis, or a number of other hotels that don't partner with WN.

LOL! WN's hotel partner list is a joke.


Back on topic - I'd far prefer WN to reinstate their first-class RR program rather than chase a few first-class seats.

But it's funnier to watch them screw you guys in addition to not adding F seats. :p So now you'll get even less BUR-LIT rewards, while I'm planning to redeem HP miles for yet another BA F award (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/firstc/public/en_us) for two to Paris. First class RR program you said?

But it's funnier to watch them screw you guys in addition to not adding F seats. :p

Have you considered changing your handle to Schadenfreude?

Your attitude, especially from someone who would never choose to fly WN, is not welcome here. It's as antisocial and telling a parent his baby is ugly.

This forum is for people who choose to fly WN, not for those who love to hate WN. I will take whatever action is necessary to keep this the friendly place it has always been, up to and including banning you permanently from this forum. If I took a vote on it, you'd already be gone, so shape up or ship out.

Whose program get's you nowhere. Even in that context, HP flies many of the same routes as WN in the west, yet for often the same price, I get upgrades, and miles towards real redemption.

Many of the same routes, but not exactly the same. I often fly routes on WN that aren't flown on HP, or on any other airline for that matter.

Ed

Sometimes a bigger seat is just a bigger seat. There are plenty of FTers who are obsessed with getting F or C seats, and I'm sure very few of them do it for any other reason.
Free booze is nice too :cool:

You have got to be kidding. WN's site looks like it was designed by grade school kids.

Personally, I believe in the KISS method, and WN's site certainly fits the bill.

Whose program get's you nowhere. Even in that context, HP flies many of the same routes as WN in the west, yet for often the same price, I get upgrades, and miles towards real redemption. I use HP in the same way you use WN, but despite all your comments HP gives me more options should I need them...Enjoy the BUR-LIT rewards.
But it's funnier to watch them screw you guys in addition to not adding F seats. :p So now you'll get even less BUR-LIT rewards, while I'm planning to redeem HP miles for yet another BA F award (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/firstc/public/en_us) for two to Paris. First class RR program you said?

Now, if I actually had the time and spare money to leave the US and stay at some fancy hotel, sure, I'd probably fly someone else. However, as a student who visits home a lot, occasionally goes on conference travel, and likes to take short trips away, WN does quite nicely for me.

Perhaps I'm a bit impatient, but I REALLY don't feel like waiting 9+ years** just so I can fly first class to India...and then have to spend a whole lot of extra money (international fees, presents for the extended family, etc. etc.). In fact, being able to fly PHL-OAK (like I'm doing next week) and similar routes twice a year is a lot more satisfying.

**I fly about 20 segments yearly (equivalent to 20,000 or so miles a year including online booking bonuses because I do short haul travel), and first class awards to India usually run in the 180,000 range for first class (with capacity controls, of course).

So yeah, I COULD get a flight on VS or AA overseas in premium class...but I'd rather not have to go through 15-20 flights in the middle seat (because elites have taken up the front), long boarding processes, ridiculous change fees, and old and/or cramped aircraft ( :mad: ) that I can't stand up straight in. I'm a grad student at Case, after all, and I'd like to fly with someone who makes the experience of getting away from Cleveland a little LESS stressful, not MORE. :p

(OT: Oh, and while I'm at it, I'd like to thank the attendants on Flight 327 [BWI-CLE] on Monday, 11:15 AM. You did a great job in making the return to CLE, the 9th circle of hell - anyone who saw the snow April 24 or the hail on May 3 can attest to this - pretty relaxing.) :D

.....

Have you considered changing your handle to Schadenfreude?

Your attitude, especially from someone who would never choose to fly WN, is not welcome here. It's as antisocial and telling a parent his baby is ugly.

This forum is for people who choose to fly WN, not for those who love to hate WN. I will take whatever action is necessary to keep this the friendly place it has always been, up to and including banning you permanently from this forum. If I took a vote on it, you'd already be gone, so shape up or ship out.

Considering how much ByrdluvsAWACO hates WN, it is interesting to see his/her screen name has the three letter stock symbol for WN.

I just think it's funny.

Besides, HP may be a *A member soon. Great, the ultimate in cockroaches...HP platinums ;)

At one time HP didn't have a change/rebook fee. Do they now? WN's re-booking/cancel policy is the best in the USA (and probably worldwide) TODAY.

Once again WN - redeem your first class FF program and keep your first-class booking/re-booking policies!!! :cool: I don't want to go to HP!!

He said several majors wont be around in a few years. How else do you interpret that?
I interpret the word "several" to mean some, not all of them.

.....

:)

I'm trying. :)

Have you considered changing your handle to Schadenfreude?

Your attitude, especially from someone who would never choose to fly WN, is not welcome here. It's as antisocial and telling a parent his baby is ugly.

This forum is for people who choose to fly WN, not for those who love to hate WN. I will take whatever action is necessary to keep this the friendly place it has always been, up to and including banning you permanently from this forum. If I took a vote on it, you'd already be gone, so shape up or ship out.

^ THANK YOU.

If we're talking about a flight under two hours, I just don't mind if I...

-- board last
-- end up with a middle seat in back
-- am among the last to disembark

I work really hard to get upgrades and premium cabin awards for intercontinental flights, but my requirements for short flights are few.

That is a key reason why southwest can get by without a first class. I've been on Chicago-St. Louis flights. Upgrade to 1st class on United gets you a slightly larger seat, though increased liklihood of having a bulkhead with no underseat storage. In flight service is essentially the same. (As non-drinker, I get the same free apple juice in either - the glass cup in first is a negative.) However, if you end up on an RJ, that upgrade is not possible. With southwest, there are no RJs.

On longer flights, first class can be worthwhile. First may have a meal, while coach gets pretzels. The larger seat is more valuable if I'm sitting there for a while.

On longer domestic flights (like Chicago-SF Bay Area), I typically fly on United, though not due to lack of first on Southwest. On southwest, the trip would earn .125 of a free tripI'd earn 3/16th of a free trip. On United, its roughly .146. Add in bonuses and its .1875 for southwest and .332 for United. Flights are also much more frequent on United. Big planes, like 777s fly the route and they have movies and other in flight entertainment. First class upgrades can be a bonus, though not a critical factor.

Consistently rapid arrival of bags is one of most remarkable aspects of the WN operation. I can't imagine how they can move those bags so quickly that if you dawdle a bit your bag beats you to the carousel. And then there was the time I checked a bag at the counter 13 minutes before departure and it made the flight. Other airlines are nowhere near this speed with bags.

You've gotta to be kidding -- or flying to different cities than I do. At HOU, it took WN 35 minutes to get 12 bags down from my flight. In PHX, it routinely takes 25-30 minutes to get my bags. In CMH, it routinely took about 20-25 minutes. These are all worse than CO and HP. Fast bags???? Not at WN!

Please. The filthiest plane I've ever been on was on WN to LAS . I have flown all of the major carriers at some point along with quite a few foreign carriers, and I have never seen a plane in such a downright disgusting state when boarding passengers. Quite frankly, this plane was unfit for travel. The only thing stopping me from getting off that plane was the fact that I had a F LAS-LGA flight that same day.

The amount of crumbs smashed into the carpet, spilled drink stains, used napkins/tissues and cups strewn about was simply unacceptable. I was utterly shocked, and so were a few other people. This includes a passenger a few rows behind me who found a used diaper in the seat back. As far as I know, it sat in the seat back until sometime just after boarding was complete.

Fortunately for me I had my anti-bacterial wipes in my carry-on bag, and was able to wipe down my seat and area. One FA had the nerve to roll her eyes at me as if she couldn't see the filth around her.

Short of leaving feces in the aisle, I don't see how a plane can get any dirtier.

So no WN fans can talk to me about dirty planes.




:rolleyes:

First you try to trash HP's lack of being in an alliance, but somehow defend's WN lack of ability to connect pax to intl traffic? Yeah, farcical.

Actually, while my plane wasn't filthy last weekend, WN's new leather seats are already coming apart. I noticed at least two dozen seats had torn leather already. But they are easier to clean, I guess, even though we will be sitting in nasty torn seats for years.

You've gotta to be kidding -- or flying to different cities than I do.

OAK and LAX. Maybe this is part of why LAX won station of the year.