Flying Blue (Air France, KLM, and Other Partners) - Flying Blues Upgrade Restrictions (moved from KL)

Not wanting to take any chances, I called the elite helpdesk a short while ago in order to upgrade as many flights as I could. Amazingly, I was not only 100% successful, but also permitted to combine miles from two different accounts to secure the upgrades.

I asked the agent about Flying Blues upgrade rules. For what it is worth, she confirmed that upgrades will only be allowed from full fare economy tickets, but added this rule "might change".

johan (now without a single Award Mile to his name)

The rule regarding upgrades only bieng allowed on full fare tickets was previously only applicable on flights to/from the US. Are you saying this has now changed and a full fare tickets are required on upgrades to ALL destinations? :confused:

The rule regarding upgrades only bieng allowed on full fare tickets was previously only applicable on flights to/from the US. Are you saying this has now changed and a full fare tickets are required on upgrades to ALL destinations? :confused:

You are getting mixed up between general upgrade rules and "date of departure" upgrade rules. Until now upgrades have been allowed from any fare as long as they were applied for in advance. I upgraded a V class ticket in February, and have an upgrade on a Q class ticket in June - looks like this will be my lass trip in C (and possibly my last long-haul trip on KLM...)

How long does it normally take to get an upgrade decided using the web site? It says a reply within 5 days.Is this right?

I am trying to get as much for my points as possible,while I can.Upgrades need 15,000 in the new program.

If you do it by phone the decision is instant.

Is this with immediate effect, or when FB starts

< a worried Jenbel, waiting for the stupid travel agent to get his finger out and issue the tickets for her sister's honeymoon so she can try for an upgrade :mad: >

Is this with immediate effect, or when FB starts
Given that I was able to upgrade from any fare, I should assume the latter is correct.

johan

Bad rumors, but unfortunately they come out of different directions now and would fit with AF's old rules for upgrades.

So let's hope it is not yet finally decided...

Would you leave if upgrades are only available from full fares with Flying Blue?

Almost all of my spend in the past 8 years has been on upgrades. Purchasing a flight with miles does not allow you to earn miles on that trip whereas upgrading allows Y miles to be earned. This is important for keeping my status. I would find it difficult to spend miles if not allowed to upgrade and retain status.

Would you leave if upgrades are only available from full fares with Flying Blue?

Not only would I, I will. :mad: It will definitely be the last straw.

[QUOTE=Would you leave if upgrades are only available from full fares with Flying Blue?[/QUOTE]

Like simonsmith, my one & only reason for remaining loyal to KLM and collecting miles is to upgrade to WBC on my regular trips to SA. If this is the case then it's time for me to start considering other carriers-KLM just doesn't seem so attractive anymore.

With thier inconvenient daytime flights to JNB (too late to make connecting flights to DUR) as well as lack of PTV's in Y on thier 744 fleet I think the negatives now outweigh the posatives.

Would you leave if upgrades are only available from full fares with Flying Blue?

If that is the case, I will be burning my current miles for free tickets for my family's benefit, for instance for a WBC roundtrip to Asia @120K with FB (150K previously), vs. an unchanged 80K for an upgrade. The reduced elite bonuses unfortunately mean the cost of that free ticket is basically unchanged when using miles earned under FB.

The problem is that most FFP's have moved in that direction lately, so the alternatives are few if upgrades from discount fares are the main target.

Sitting on the fence at the moment, * being the alternative.

You can upgrade most LH fares with miles, though not the dirt-cheapest. Plus you get 100% COS on C and 200% on F. Though the SEN bonus is a measly 25%, it counts toward status. This means that a SEN traveling on F fares earns 325%. Figure in the fact that companion awards are always 50% for a SEN and the 25% gets put into perspective.

We've almost exclusively used our miles for upgrades over the years. One of the reasons for preferring KL to AF in the past has been the 'upgrade from any fare' with miles. If this is going, then my loyalty to KL goes too. In anticipation of this happening, we've used up almost all our FD miles so there's little incentive for KL to be the automatic choice of airline any more.

It's compounded by the half-baked way in which the new programme has been launched; the nitty-gritty details aren't available & the membership pack full of vague waffle.

Would you leave if upgrades are only available from full fares with Flying Blue?I use my miles for upgrades from V, Q, M, H and (occasionally) B fares, so . . . .

johan

With thier inconvenient daytime flights to JNB (too late to make connecting flights to DUR) as well as lack of PTV's in Y on thier 744 fleet I think the negatives now outweigh the posatives.I also travel to SA regularly. When KLM switched to daytime flights, I switched to KQ via NBO (KQ117/460) out, and KL592 back. Although I still take the odd day flight, I much prefer and warmly recommend KQ. Premier Class is much better than WBC in all respects, especially the true horizontal sleeper seats. Economy class is also better, but not by that much. Perhaps surprisingly, tranfsers at NBO are quick and hassle-free, even though boarding procedures can be somewhat quirky (gate agent helpfully says "last plane in the second row", whereupon you are expected to find your own way across the apron, dodging planes and cars en route). The new Simba lounge, although disappointingly small and usually quite busy early morning, is still rather nice.

johan

According to this post (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=423494) by a FB staff member, upgrades are restricted to Y and B fares only for French members, and Y, B, M, and K for everyone else.

Leave it to KLM to slog through the gray area enough to prevent me from making a clean decision. :mad:

You can upgrade most LH fares with miles, though not the dirt-cheapest.

Correct me if I am reading this (http://portal.miles-and-more.com/cdautils/mediapool/media_270080.pdf) wrong, but upgrades from coach fares other than B/Y on LH cost more than a free biz ticket?? :confused:


Though the SEN bonus is a measly 25%, it counts toward status. This means that a SEN traveling on F fares earns 325%. Figure in the fact that companion awards are always 50% for a SEN and the 25% gets put into perspective.

Yes, SEN is pretty attractive, unlike FTL, which seems inferior to FB Gold (especially if the latter turns out to be ST E+). However, it obviously targets the premium flyer, and the 25% bonus doesn't work on most * carriers.


My choice(s) of FFP might hinge on whether MH joins Skyteam (would convince me to maintain some form of ST E+), when my home carrier LX joins *, whether I can convince myself BMI isn't too much like a small KLM (their website makes KLM's look pretty good!), or whether a combination of Easyjet and China Airlines wouldn't be the best after all!

Does anyone have the link for the new award prices for KLM? Was wondering how much a single from Europe to KUL would be, also hom much a BIZ return to North America is now?

Does anyone have the link for the new award prices for KLM? Was wondering how much a single from Europe to KUL would be, also hom much a BIZ return to North America is now?

Sure. See this (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418001) thread, first post.

-- PH

whether I can convince myself BMI isn't too much like a small KLM
:confused:
I fail to see the similarity between BD and KL. Is this is just about a website issues, I can think of many airline websites which are far, far worse, starting with AF.
IMO, there is one big difference between BD and KL. BD staff seem to care, even though they do do daft things sometimes.

Correct me if I am reading this (http://portal.miles-and-more.com/cdautils/mediapool/media_270080.pdf) wrong, but upgrades from coach fares other than B/Y on LH cost more than a free biz ticket?? :confused:


I don't see where you're getting that. Europe to NA costs 35K each way (and you earn miles). An award costs 90K r/t and you don't earn miles. 70K+miles < 90K. Granted the difference is only 20K plus your earned miles for LH (KL is what...30K?). Still, I can do that on a $600 ticket. From what Ralf (I think) posted in another thread, the comparable upgradeable FB ticket is around $1300. You're getting close to Z fares there, which of course only earn 50% COS bonus vs. 100% + 25% on LH.

Pick whatever program works best for you. So far I am leaning toward staying wtih LH.

I don't see where you're getting that. Europe to NA costs 35K each way (and you earn miles). An award costs 90K r/t and you don't earn miles. 70K+miles < 90K. Granted the difference is only 20K plus your earned miles for LH (KL is what...30K?). Still, I can do that on a $600 ticket. From what Ralf (I think) posted in another thread, the comparable upgradeable FB ticket is around $1300. You're getting close to Z fares there, which of course only earn 50% COS bonus vs. 100% + 25% on LH.

Pick whatever program works best for you. So far I am leaning toward staying wtih LH.

Unfortunately, monahos is correct, because on LH upgrades Europe to NA on fares other than Y or B are 50k each since Aug 1, 2004. So you spend 100k for a round-trip upgrade vs. 90k on a biz class award ticket. Not very competitive. Even as you earn around 10k miles for your Eco flight, you might argue that you only spent around 90k either way, but then you still have to pay for your Eco ticket...
Not a good deal IMHO.

I fail to see the similarity between BD and KL.

A poor attempt at humor on my part.

I don't know much about BMI, and was reading up on their program lately. Some of the parallels I drew with the (old, good) KLM FD were that it has a rather generous program (both awards and elite thresholds), with a somewhat confusing website, and an apparently friendly board here on FT :)

Hello I just posted the Upgrade classes for AF and KLM on the AF thread.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=423494&page=2

Hello I just posted the Upgrade classes for AF and KLM on the AF thread.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=423494&page=2

This confirms what I was told by someone at AF the other day. They stressed that it was not 100% final but I think it's final enough.

Nice knowing you everyone! Maybe I'll see you again in the LH forum!

....or the Boo Hoo Two! ;)

They really know how to alienate EVERYONE, at both ends of the scale (and in between)

They are alienating their commercially important Business Class travellers - who are now getting 1.5 times the miles for paying two or three times the fare paid by Economy travellers.

They are alienating those who pay for their own flights by not allowing upgrades from any fare.

(And the word we were using when discussing these issues over dinner this evening wasn't "alienate", but a two-word combination starting in "p" and ending in "f"!)

Although I fall into the latter group I can sort of see the commercial reasons for restricting upgrades - but what they've done about Business Class mileage is really a case of shooting themselves in the foot.

See you guys... somewhere else!

I reckon there'll be tumbleweeds blowing through the Crown lounges in about a year... at least I'll be able to get a seat in there! :cool:

According to this post (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=423494) by a FB staff member, upgrades are restricted to Y and B fares only for French members, and Y, B, M, and K for everyone else.


This really pisses me off :mad:
I use my miles for upgrades for me, and free tix for friends only

i had followed this but had wrongly assumed that the upgrade debate on full fare was for "day of departure" only upgrades. i called today and it took ages (almost 15 minutes before i got to speak to live-ware...not as bad as Brit Midland but bad enough). when i finally got to speak to the agent, she told me that ONLY B and S fares will ever be upgraded, either in advance or day of departure. the only alternative i have is to phone KLM reservations and get a price for upgrading from Q to S or B then phone Flying Blue back in the hope of an upgrade still being available. if it isn't, chances of getting a refund on the Q to S/B debacle is slim. this is crazy, isn't it?

this is a real kick in the teeth, and is removing the one key reason i had to use KLM at all in the first place. :td:

i've had it now with KLM/FB... it looked like the scheme was going to suck and now this has proven it to me. i had been thrilled at becoming lifetime plat this year but i'm off to another program for my long hauls. Yes, KLM... that's 10 years of regular long haul travel that you are losing and that i'm turning my back on. hope there's a lurker watching this because i'm pretty sure i won't be the only person going elsewhere... there's plenty of alternatives out there....

:mad:

But as we are constantly being reminded the new program is much better! Honestly!

I'd like to thank KLM for giving me the gold status that allowed me to Status Match over to BMI. The Dark Alliance looks a whole lot more attractive now. I'll still fly KLM to get to Amsterdam to access BA's cheaper Eurpean long-haul fares (silver status on its way) and I get 750 miles for that flight now so I guess I'm a winner. Kind of.

But do I really want to transit in Frankfurt?

If you are *G, there are worse things than transiting FRA.

But as we are constantly being reminded the new program is much better! Honestly!
Oh don't..

I tried and failed on the upgrades for sister's honeymoon... lack of availability, combined with a x class ticket and the start of Flying Poo meant I couldn't keep re-checking availability, so was left without a present for them. Thought I would set aside a chunk of miles for their use for their anniversary next year - but of course that will be prevented by the must be a partner, spouse or child rule :mad: :mad: :mad:

Oh don't..

I tried and failed on the upgrades for sister's honeymoon... lack of availability, combined with a x class ticket and the start of Flying Poo meant I couldn't keep re-checking availability, so was left without a present for them. Thought I would set aside a chunk of miles for their use for their anniversary next year - but of course that will be prevented by the must be a partner, spouse or child rule :mad: :mad: :mad:


There, there, Jenbel. You can always burn some miles for 15% off rack rate at a bunch of crappy hotels.

There, there, Jenbel. You can always burn some miles for 15% off rack rate at a bunch of crappy hotels.
Suddenly I feel so much better :D ;)

I'd like to thank KLM for giving me the gold status that allowed me to Status Match over to BMI. The Dark Alliance looks a whole lot more attractive now. I'll still fly KLM to get to Amsterdam to access BA's cheaper Eurpean long-haul fares (silver status on its way) and I get 750 miles for that flight now so I guess I'm a winner. Kind of.

But do I really want to transit in Frankfurt?


How did you do that? I'll status match in a heart beat if I can.

Please let me know.

Emma

This change mirrors NW Worldperks, which only allows upgrades from those higher fare classes. This has always been reflected in the fact that there always seemed to be more Europeans in BC, due to the easier upgrade rules under FD.

I suppose KLM employees travelling on passes will be happy, as there will be alot more empty seats in BC for them to snag. But, it's difficult to imagine that the number of revenue passengers in BC (upgraded and paid) will not go down as a result of this move.




i had followed this but had wrongly assumed that the upgrade debate on full fare was for "day of departure" only upgrades. i called today and it took ages (almost 15 minutes before i got to speak to live-ware...not as bad as Brit Midland but bad enough). when i finally got to speak to the agent, she told me that ONLY B and S fares will ever be upgraded, either in advance or day of departure. the only alternative i have is to phone KLM reservations and get a price for upgrading from Q to S or B then phone Flying Blue back in the hope of an upgrade still being available. if it isn't, chances of getting a refund on the Q to S/B debacle is slim. this is crazy, isn't it?

this is a real kick in the teeth, and is removing the one key reason i had to use KLM at all in the first place. :td:

i've had it now with KLM/FB... it looked like the scheme was going to suck and now this has proven it to me. i had been thrilled at becoming lifetime plat this year but i'm off to another program for my long hauls. Yes, KLM... that's 10 years of regular long haul travel that you are losing and that i'm turning my back on. hope there's a lurker watching this because i'm pretty sure i won't be the only person going elsewhere... there's plenty of alternatives out there....

:mad:

How did you do that? I'll status match in a heart beat if I can.

Please let me know.

Emma

Oops - the link to BMI's site is:

http://www.flybmi.com/bmi/en-ie/frequentflyers/dublincardmatch.aspx

They took less than a week to take care of me. Unfortunately this offer closed at the end of May - however the theory is if you phone up customer services and explain nicely that you missed it then they may well still status match you although by all accounts they are much more keen on getting BA then anybody else.

Worth a try?