US Airways Dividend Miles (Pre-FlightFund Merger) - No longer 'something special' in the air

Those Johnson and Johnston guys are at it again... ;) http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05100/485454.stm

No longer 'something special' in the air

As embattled mainline carriers move to cut costs and fares, the traveling experience leaves a lot to be desired

Sunday, April 10, 2005
By Dan Fitzpatrick, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Bob Johnson misses eating ice cream at 30,000 feet. The US Airways frequent flier dug into his last scoop a few weeks after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, when the ice cream cart made its final appearance in the first-class cabin before the airline cut the sweets to save money.

As US Airways workers pushed the sundaes and banana splits up the aisle one last time, an attendant urged the Mystic Island, N.J., resident to "eat it up" while he had the chance. "I had so much I thought I was going to turn vanilla," Johnson said.

For many airline passengers, flying sure isn't the treat it used to be. With soaring oil prices threatening to push industry losses to $5.5 billion this year, bringing the five-year flow of red ink to more than $40 billion, and with low-cost competitors grabbing an increasing share of business, many carriers are skimping wherever they can.

They are tacking on fees -- on luggage that weighs more than 50 pounds ($25) and reservations made via the telephone instead of the Internet ($5 to $10); cracking down and in some cases eliminating cheaper bereavement fares; and slashing perks -- gone are free meals, peanuts and, at American Airlines and Delta Air Lines, even complimentary pillows.

When Delta took the pillows away last month, "It struck people as pathetic," said Kevin Mitchell, who represents corporate travel managers as chairman of the Business Travel Coalition. "You can rationalize the food" -- the airline industry spends about $2 billion a year on meals -- "but the pillows? This is really a new low."

The changes are constant fodder for jokes. TV comedian David Letterman last month came up with a list of the top 10 ways airlines are cutting back. One was to replace complimentary pillows with "wadded-up clothing pulled out of checked luggage." And the difference between first class and coach? "A bite-sized 3 Musketeers bar."

The diminished experience of air travel is no laughing matter to some passengers, such as Greg Johnston, a furniture company vice president from Hickory, N.C. "It cheapens the experience," he said.

It's true that airlines have been chipping away at amenities for decades, spawned by 1978 industry deregulation that forced carriers to compete on price and look for ways to save a few bucks here and there. But until recently, the changes have been almost imperceptible.

In the early days of deregulation, American Airlines Chief Executive Officer Robert Crandall bragged about plucking black olives from salads and saving $40,000. Delta cut a single lettuce leaf from meals in the mid-1990s, saving $1.4 million a year. And most airlines long ago began charging for alcoholic drinks and eliminating things that people did not want to pay for.

But "what had been a trickle or a drip, drip, drip has turned into a deluge," said local airline observer Bill Lauer. "There is really a race to the bottom right now" as higher-cost mainline carriers such as American, Delta and US Airways compete against popular low-cost carriers that have been luring away customers in droves with low-priced fares.

The resulting service changes, both large and small, are fundamentally altering the traveling experience, from the back of the cabin to the front, from the airplane check-in line to the gate, from the reservation desk to the ramp.

At US Airways, for example, champagne for first-class passengers has joined the ice cream cart in the storage room, as have real wine glasses (saving the Arlington, Va.-based carrier $4 million a year in dish washing bills). Hot meals for the first-class cabin also are passe, though the airline says that change is temporary. For coach customers, meals-in-a-box (sandwich and salad ) will set them back $7 on long flights and $5 for smaller snack boxes on shorter flights.

At airports, plush US Airways clubs -- havens for weary business travelers -- are closing in some of the cities the carrier serves, including Los Angeles and San Francisco, while the airline, battling to emerge from its second bankruptcy this decade, is using fewer employees to handle bags, check in passengers or answer questions over the phone. Northwest Airlines has shut membership-only clubs in Philadelphia and San Francisco, and other airlines are weighing similar closings.

The changes come as airports across the country are becoming increasingly crowded. More people traveled by air last year than ever before, 630 million domestic passengers, and backups and long lines have become common in the post-9/11 era crackdown on airport security.

When bad weather hits, as it did at Christmas, it can stretch skeleton staffs at many airlines to near-collapse. Just ask US Airways, which came under sharp criticism when 3,900 flights were delayed and 72,000 bags were misplaced over the holiday weekend because of staffing shortages.

That performance helped cause the airline's customer service rating to plunge more than any airline last year, from fourth to 12th, in a closely watched annual study by researchers at the University of Nebraska and Wichita State University. Then again, few carriers improved their scores.

"The whole mystique of travel is not there anymore," said US Airways flier Jim Johnston, of Princeton, W.Va. "It is not much above a glorified bus trip anymore. You used to feel special, even in coach, and now it's 'We will get you there, and that's it.' "

Not all carriers are cutting back.

A few low-cost carriers actually are adding amenities, such as leather seats and TVs and satellite radio, while creating more customer legroom than their larger competitors. These are the same carriers -- including JetBlue Airways -- that score the highest in customer-satisfaction surveys, while providing service at a super-low price.

In fact, the top three carriers in the annual customer-service study were discounters JetBlue, AirTran and Southwest, respectively. Southwest, the king of the discount fares and no-frills service, recently introduced leather seats, though it still does not serve meals on any flights or sell reserved seats.

That the discount carriers score the highest in customer service has to irk the mainline carriers, which find themselves sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, their customers say they care most about having the lowest possible fares. Then, when the airlines pare amenities to lower costs so that they can reduce fares, their customers cry, "Foul!"

"We have seen the enemy, and it is us," said David Stempler, president of the Air Travelers Association in Washington, D.C. In their quest for the lowest fare on every flight and their use of the Internet to search for the cheapest prices, travelers are sending major airlines a message: Do whatever it takes to get your fares down.

"This is the message we are sending the airlines by our purchasing patterns," Stempler said. "That is what we as passengers decided we wanted. We are more interested in low fares than high service." Such a decision, he added, "has consequences."

The consequences aren't only suffered by passengers.

Many carriers have shed large chunks of their work force to lower costs -- 136,000 people across the industry in four years. In that time, US Airways has cut 44 percent of its staff, the largest percentage cutback of any major carrier, eliminating 19,000 jobs. Pittsburgh-area employment has gone from almost 13,000 to about 5,000.

US Airways also stripped Pittsburgh of its hub, cutting many nonstop flights and international destinations, thus forcing some business travelers to endure longer connecting routes. Travel from Pittsburgh is now "more challenging," said John Miclot, president and chief executive officer of Respironics Inc., a medical products company in Murrysville.

US Airways employees know that service is suffering, and some say they are frustrated by it. Pilots are predicting that continued crew shortages will produce more delays and baggage mishaps over the busy summer travel season.

US Airways is rushing to fill worker shortages in the system, especially at delay-prone Philadelphia International Airport, where the Christmas travel fiasco hit hardest. It has hired back some airplane cleaners in Pittsburgh.

Johnston, the furniture company vice president from North Carolina who says he spends 14 hours a week in flight, is trying to stand up to the many cutbacks.

He refuses to get his tickets through the many electronic kiosks now lining airport concourses, believing it will just "perpetuate the problem" of poor service. "You will get to where there are fewer and fewer staff members," he said. "I am just planting the flag and saying, 'No!' "

Los Angeles frequent flier Arthur Greenwald is ready to dump US Airways for JetBlue, the New York airline that began in 1999 promising to bring "humanity back to air travel."

Now that US Airways has closed its Los Angeles airport club, Greenwald has no place to relax before early-morning flights to the East Coast. And the media-production consultant is sick of the unannounced changes in aircraft on direct flights, which he believes are due to staff shortages throughout the system.

US Airways has shown in the past that it is willing to listen to complaints and change unpopular policies. After pulling blankets from airplanes following 9/11, for example, it restored them a few years later.

But Greenwald does not care about the food or the drinks or the blankets. "I just want a predictable, convenient experience where I can get work done on the plane," he said.

I don't know if this holds for US Airways... but in past experiences with American (and I know some other carriers are like this, if US is, it wouldn't surprise me):

I've tried a few times on recent AA trips to check in with an agent. They told me to use a kiosk, and ask why I wanted to see an agent. I told them so the company wouldn't think they aren't needed. They appreciated the sentiment, but told me they have kiosk usage quotas and at present it helps them more if they meet those quotas (as the kiosk don't always work for people, so that throws off their numbers) as the station manager will get chewed out, and that'll get passed down to the counter agents.

But Greenwald does not care about the food or the drinks or the blankets. "I just want a predictable, convenient experience where I can get work done on the plane," he said.
Well, flying in First on a legacy seems like the best way!
Really, it's not as bad as people put it- sure it's nothing like the past but not like hell either. And I wonder why jetblue gets praise for PTVs while Song, Frontier, America West all have PTVs and AA and legacies have them on select (widebody) flights.
And WN doesn't even have any entertainment or food...how is that supposedly fun to fly cross country?
And a Los Angeles frequent flier switching to jetblue? Hope that he likes Long Beach, and choosed B6 only when traveling to San Jose, JFK, BOS, or FLL...! (Well, not that US had any more destinations from LAX but codeshares with UA and tons of connection opportunities including small cities via regional carriers still make for lots of destinations!)
Sorry, I just dislike news articles for some reason.

Well, flying in First on a legacy seems like the best way!
Really, it's not as bad as people put it- sure it's nothing like the past but not like hell either. And I wonder why jetblue gets praise for PTVs while Song, Frontier, America West all have PTVs and AA and legacies have them on select (widebody) flights.

I think because jetBlue makes the biggest deal out of it, and was pretty much first in the scope of their IFE offerings, though it has been replicated now by others.

And WN doesn't even have any entertainment or food...how is that supposedly fun to fly cross country?


Lower expectations on Southwest, I think. Probably why their quality ratings are consistantly high (though the entire airline quality report that comes out by the esteemed professor at University of No Opportunity is seriously flawed and most in the industry don't take it seriously, except for the media, of course, who influence it). It'll take awhile, but eventually the legacy carriers will retrain their customers to have lower expectations. I mean, when in some cases flying US Airways is CHEAPER than taking Greyhound or other similarly slow means of transportation, you can't really have high expectations, can you?

I mean, when in some cases flying US Airways is CHEAPER than taking Greyhound or other similarly slow means of transportation, you can't really have high expectations, can you?

Well if I took the Greyhound Bus into PHL on Christmas Day I would have had my luggage with me and drove home with it. So what exactly is your point?

The sour taste of poor quality lingers long after the swetness of low price is gone.

Well if I took the Greyhound Bus into PHL on Christmas Day I would have had my luggage with me and drove home with it. So what exactly is your point?

The sour taste of poor quality lingers long after the swetness of low price is gone.

I wouldn't know about the Christmas baggage debacle. Mine showed up the morning after me via UPS. :p

But really.... what can you expect with sub-$250 transcon round trips, tax included? Airfares are reaching unreasonably low points in some locations, and it isn't the fault of US Airways. It's more some of these LCC parasites.

It's less and less surprising what Americans will put up with to save money. I even flew AirTran once. How many people put up with Wal-Mart to save money?

And WN doesn't even have any entertainment or food...how is that supposedly fun to fly cross country?

DVD on your laptop and some food from the terminal, both of which you purchased with the money saved :p .

DVD on your laptop and some food from the terminal, both of which you purchased with the money saved :p .

Southwest now serves, I believe, a little snack box with assorted cholesterol-ridden snacks for free on longer flights. They are what many airlines serve for $3 through their Buy-on-Board.

I wouldn't know about the Christmas baggage debacle. Mine showed up the morning after me via UPS. :p

But really.... what can you expect with sub-$250 transcon round trips, tax included? Airfares are reaching unreasonably low points in some locations, and it isn't the fault of US Airways. It's more some of these LCC parasites.

It's less and less surprising what Americans will put up with to save money. I even flew AirTran once. How many people put up with Wal-Mart to save money?

Not to be to much of the MOTO (Master of the obvious) but I didn't notice anyone else getting absolutely HAMMERED by the DOT for operational issues regarding baggage. Problems that BTW continue to this day.

SWA seems to be able to charge $184.00 R/T PHL-LAX and get customer and baggage to the same spot at the same time. As far as that goes so do most of the Legacy carriers.

Hey AL, It's time for RESULTS not reasons. No union contract issues to blame your next operational failure on. Spotlight is on you Buddy, I sincerely hope you're performance is not found wanting AGAIN by EVERYONE But the Good Ole Boy network at CCY. You know CCY, the hall of mirrors where bad is good and the customer is always the enemy.

Not to be to much of the MOTO (Master of the obvious) but I didn't notice anyone else getting absolutely HAMMERED by the DOT for operational issues regarding baggage. Problems that BTW continue to this day.

SWA seems to be able to charge $184.00 R/T PHL-LAX and get customer and baggage to the same spot at the same time. As far as that goes so do most of the Legacy carriers.


Most people don't complain to the DOT. Most people don't even know what the DOT is. Around Christmas, we had the media to thank for putting a lot of focus on the US Airways issues and telling people exactly how to complain to "make it count." That's not to say US didn't screw up. (though I had 21 segments with US between Dec 14th and Jan 1st and had zero problems.... and no delays other than a one hour delay on a LGA-SYR flight... about 7 of those 21 segments had PHL on one end of them too).

Southwest does a much better job of meeting customer expectations. Many fly Southwest and are just happy to get to LAX for $184 round trip and care little about service... they get their free snack, a couple soft drinks, and generally friendly employees.
Southwest is helped, though, by the fact that most passengers aren't making connections on them. That certainly helps with baggage deliveries.

DVD on your laptop and some food from the terminal, both of which you purchased with the money saved :p .

I'm sure that you mean DVD, food AND LAPTOP! In some cases you could buy a laptop with the big bucks saved! ;)

In response to one flyer planning to switch to JetBlue, I'd never recommend doing so until they adopt a more worthwhile frequent flyer program. "TrueBlue" is pathetic compared to any of the legacy carriers' programs, especially since there are no loyalty bonuses (aside from free domestic tickets that take a lot more paid flights to earn) and no international award travel or partners.

And if you're planning to work on a laptop, no power ports on JetBlue either. US Airways, despite all its deficiencies in cabin service, is one of only a few airlines to have power ports even in coach (for US, on the Airbus aircraft).

Most people don't complain to the DOT. Most people don't even know what the DOT is. Around Christmas, we had the media to thank for putting a lot of focus on the US Airways issues and telling people exactly how to complain to "make it count." That's not to say US didn't screw up.

Southwest does a much better job of meeting customer expectations.

Southwest is helped, though, by the fact that most passengers aren't making connections on them. That certainly helps with baggage deliveries.

Please note that Bolds are by the poster: i call you attention to the DOT report, Page 5,

"Managers were aware of those problems and had made various plans to offset the shortages, such as using overtime and increasing the required number of hours worked by flight attendants. However, those plans ultimately did not work. US Airways canceled 405 flights during the holiday travel period, affecting more than 46,000 passengers. In addition, there were over 3,900 delayed flights affecting over 518,000 passengers."

Show me JAX exactly where Organized Labor is mentioned as the cause of over HALF Million customers getting delayed. Operations Management has clearly demonstrated that it can not organize a one car funeral!

Caling your attention to the same report, same page, next bullet point:

"For example, of the 88,197 calls made on December 24th, the airline only handled 39,388, meaning that 55 percent of the calls were never answered. In addition, US Airways had nearly 72,000 claims for lost, pilfered, or damaged baggage but could not tell us the total number of bags those claims represent"

Once again FAILED management, NOT failed employees. There are 39 more pages just like this, should I go on? Management can not continue to blame LCC's, Organized Labor and Customers for its financial woes. The cost of the Christmas Meltdown was measured in the tens of millions. Do you think US couldn't use that 30-40 million right now?

You know what else? It was my fault. I've been loyal and supportive, to the point where I question my sanity and what do I get in response? Closings of critical clubs with no basis or demographic analysis of the customer base that uses them. An offer of a discount from a top executive on my club membership but no instructions as to how to get it credited. Flight operations delays and waits for bags to be loaded. All of this for $1100 to go to Albany and Burlington, VT this week.

I should have got comped status to another carrier on August 28th, 2002 and never looked back. Oh well

Please note that Bolds are by the poster: i call you attention to the DOT report, Page 5,

Caling your attention to the same report, same page, next bullet point:

"For example, of the 88,197 calls made on December 24th, the airline only handled 39,388, meaning that 55 percent of the calls were never answered. In addition, US Airways had nearly 72,000 claims for lost, pilfered, or damaged baggage but could not tell us the total number of bags those claims represent"

Once again FAILED management, NOT failed employees. There are 39 more pages just like this, should I go on? Management can not continue to blame LCC's, Organized Labor and Customers for its financial woes. The cost of the Christmas Meltdown was measured in the tens of millions. Do you think US couldn't use that 30-40 million right now?

You know what else? It was my fault. I've been loyal and supportive, to the point where I question my sanity and what do I get in response? Closings of critical clubs with no basis or demographic analysis of the customer base that uses them. An offer of a discount from a top executive on my club membership but no instructions as to how to get it credited. Flight operations delays and waits for bags to be loaded. All of this for $1100 to go to Albany and Burlington, VT this week.

I should have got comped status to another carrier on August 28th, 2002 and never looked back. Oh well

I'm really not real sure how much of what you posted relates to my post (to which you highlight that you are replying).

I've read the DOT report (and the FFOCUS 'response') and don't see anything I disagree with. I've long stated it was not the fault of most employees (though a few did malicious things, but management didn't handle that well) and was instead a failure of management, who tried to shift the blame off themselves.

What I'm calling into question is DOT numbers. They are not completely truthful. US numbers were skewed thanks to media influence. I'm not saying US didn't screw up (I even said that) on a grand scale, but the DOT stats were skewed. Complaints to the airline don't count. Only what people send in to the government. Most people don't complain to the DOT. However, being in Philly through most of the second half of December, I saw just even on local news how they were giving DOT website address, mailing address, phone number, etc., on how to complain. Many would have no clue how to DOT complain unless they were told. If every complaint to an airline counted (even those that didn't go to the DOT, but just to the carrier itself), we'd see a different numbers breakdown, and much higher complaint numbers across the industry. A majority of DOT complainers don't write to the DOT until they don't get their way with the carrier. Many carriers do a much better job than US of appeasing angry customers. My DOT complaint about US last year was only after US told me off (though after sending a DOT complaint in, and then registered letters to a few supervisors, I got what I asked for.... travel voucher for half the value of the digital camera which was broken after a F/A gate-checked a regulation-sized carry-on of mine without my knowing it, and didn't tell me until we had pushed back so I couldn't do anything about it).

Management operations wise screwed up, I agree with that. However, I think AS A WHOLE organization wide, US management is doing as good a job as they can. Unless you've got some more supposed super-secret inside information on the US Airways thought process for closing clubs, I can't imagine US just did so at a whim without a very good reason. Of course, it plays much better into your media quotes to say "US is out to screw the customer with no consideration for its frequent travelers!" and act as if the airline is set out with a mission of pissing you off.

Please keep paying those $1000 fares to Albany/Burlington. That's about what US needs people to pay systemwide to keep/bring back all the amenities you want. As it is, they need to cut costs to deal with offering lower fares. That means outsourcing, closure of select clubs (probably closed based at usage/staffing efficiency, daily traffic, etc), plastic cups, and selling meals in coach. Providing air service to smaller markets is inherently more expensive (please nobody use Indy Air as an example of 'you can do it as an LCC!' since they are a poor example of anything and many there are embarrassed to have the company on their resume).

Unless you've got some more supposed super-secret inside information on the US Airways thought process for closing clubs, I can't imagine US just did so at a whim without a very good reason. Of course, it plays much better into your media quotes to say "US is out to screw the customer with no consideration for its frequent travelers!" and act as if the airline is set out with a mission of pissing you off

Whether they sat out on that mission or not they have done it. As for the club closings and what US based their decision can only be from the basics, number of visits, costs to operate, etc. NONE of which paint a complete or accurate picture of a given Clubs viability.

US Airways has no accurate information on the specific buying/flying pattern of its customers that can be applied to a specific customer and club. How difficult would it be to put a magnetic strip on the Club card and swipe it everytime a member uses the club. Then they would have a clear picture of the value of a specific club. Then at least there would be a rational basis for closings.

Let's take LAX & RDU for examples, RDU is a GoFare city and lets say that club traffic is 8,000 customers per month and of that 8,000 80% are elites, 30% of which are CP's, the rest are just DM members. Average yield is under $300.00

Now if the LAX club has say 5,000 customers per month with 90% being elites and 60% of the 90 are CP's and the average yield for the CP's is say $700.

So which club do you close? If Airways had this kind of information and they don't you could agree with or appreciate the decisions made.

The problem is they don't have that kind of information and they can't tell you any better than I can as a customer which clubs should have been closed. I'd argue that NONE should have been closed given the fact that we PAID $275.00 for '05 based on the number and location of the clubs still in existance. The decision is typical of US Airways and its "Customer as the enemy" approach. They do NOT respect us. They never have. If you don't march in lockstep with their viewpoint then "You're viewed as the enemy". People on here know who my primary contact is so figure out where the bolded quote came from.


2345 Crystal Drive, were wrong is right and the customer is always the enemy

Whether they sat out on that mission or not they have done it. As for the club closings and what US based their decision can only be from the basics, number of visits, costs to operate, etc. NONE of which paint a complete or accurate picture of a given Clubs viability.

US Airways has no accurate information on the specific buying/flying pattern of its customers that can be applied to a specific customer and club. How difficult would it be to put a magnetic strip on the Club card and swipe it everytime a member uses the club. Then they would have a clear picture of the value of a specific club. Then at least there would be a rational basis for closings.

So which club do you close? If Airways had this kind of information and they don't you could agree with or appreciate the decisions made.

Bob,
There are a multitude of ways US can track club usage, and I'm sure they do. Without even logging each individual user in, they still know how many people visit each club, what time period, etc. Many of you seem to conduct a lot of your ticketing business there or have them look at flight info. That identifies who was in there.

Regardless of what the person at the front desk can/does/would record.... US knows where Club members live. They know where Club members are traveling, and I'd assume that they assume you're going to use clubs where applicable. They also know how many partner carrier members enter clubs and what locations. So, even without signing you in upon entry, US knows how many Club members live in the Los Angeles area, they know their status, how often/when/where they are flying, what Club members are flying to/from LAX who don't live there, and that gives a pretty good indication of usage.

Why do you continue to insist US is just arbitrarily closing clubs? You seem to believe they are out to intentionally piss off customers. I would assume the LAX and SFO clubs had usage limited to certain times of the day with maybe three peak hours (early morning, prior to mid-day transcons, and late night if it was even open before the redeyes). With such spread out peak times, staffing I'm sure was higher than it needed to be. Bottom line is that at stations like LAX/SFO/PBI where people don't connect, they know who is using those Clubs.

The problem is they don't have that kind of information and they can't tell you any better than I can as a customer which clubs should have been closed.

I very much doubt the validity of that statement. Just because you don't know their complete reasons and don't agree with what they are doing doesn't make US Airways incompetant. As a result of its current financial condition, US Airways has to make many hard-and-fast choices about where to devote an ever-decreasing supply of money and resources. Under better circumstances the airline could focus on offering incentives to boost revenues. However, given the emergency situation the airline finds itself in, even these efforts must become secondary to minimizing cash-flow losses. Regardless of other reasons, put another way, until the near-term viability of the enterprise is assured, the marketeers and customer service people will be taking a back seat to the accountants and lawyers.

I'd argue that NONE should have been closed given the fact that we PAID $275.00 for '05 based on the number and location of the clubs still in existance. The decision is typical of US Airways and its "Customer as the enemy" approach. They do NOT respect us. They never have. If you don't march in lockstep with their viewpoint then "You're viewed as the enemy". People on here know who my primary contact is so figure out where the bolded quote came from.
2345 Crystal Drive, were wrong is right and the customer is always the enemy

Then you have a good case for a refund. You stated you were offered a refund, so pursue it. $275 is still pretty cheap for airport club membership. If you don't want a club membership because those clubs are closing, that's your priority.

Since you feel you are the enemy at US Airways, I ask why you continue to fly them. You just seem set on continuing to be in misery as it is now. Go fly Delta where top tier status comes with free club membership. Wait, Delta really respects its FFs doesn't it? Oh yeah, I remember reading something about that on the FT boards....

Bob,
US knows how many Club members live in the Los Angeles area, they know their status, how often/when/where they are flying, what Club members are flying to/from LAX who don't live there, and that gives a pretty good indication of usage.



I wonder how many Club members who live in Los Angeles joined the club because they are frequent flyers on WN/HP, and they figured it would be worth joining the US club so they have a quiet place to hang out and work away from the masses at LAX? Maybe some of these Club members occasionally fly US to Points East, by sole virtue of the fact that they have the Club membership. Their profiles may state that they are "infrequent" users, but belie the fact that they may be very frequent users - just not on US PNR's. The beancounters at CCY would have no real way of knowing this if they were only relying on their profiles in US's system. Granted, CCY is probably the least interested in keeping these folks happy, but it's still creating ill will which could drive away their future business.

I wonder how many Club members who live in Los Angeles joined the club because they are frequent flyers on WN/HP, and they figured it would be worth joining the US club so they have a quiet place to hang out and work away from the masses at LAX? Maybe some of these Club members occasionally fly US to Points East, by sole virtue of the fact that they have the Club membership. Their profiles may state that they are "infrequent" users, but belie the fact that they may be very frequent users - just not on US PNR's. The beancounters at CCY would have no real way of knowing this if they were only relying on their profiles in US's system. Granted, CCY is probably the least interested in keeping these folks happy, but it's still creating ill will which could drive away their future business.

US Airways themselves says these clubs are the lesser-used clubs.

And in response to your discussion of WN/HP club users... that's irrelevant. As stated when the club closures were announced:
"US Airways decided to close the Los Angeles and San Francisco Clubs in anticipation of later this year moving its terminals at those airports. There are no plans at this time to operate Clubs at the new terminal locations."

They'd lose usage when the airline moved anyway.

Sorry... Edited to add: They say they'll be moving closer to United, I gather into the same terminal at both locations, so United club usage will be allowed for the fee. Before people complain about the fee, other airlines are no better. Delta Crown Room Club members have to be on a same day Delta ticket to use the club, period. No usage when not traveling, no usage when on NW/CO codeshares even when it has a DL flight number.

Sorry... Edited to add: They say they'll be moving closer to United, I gather into the same terminal at both locations, so United club usage will be allowed for the fee.

No it won't, assuming US keeps the current policy of only allowing Club members into the RCCs when they're flying on UA metal.

In places like PHX and SAN, where US and UA share the same gate area, the RCC is only open to US Club members if they're flying on a same-day United-operated flight---despite being just steps away from the US Airways gates.

No it won't, assuming US keeps the current policy of only allowing Club members into the RCCs when they're flying on UA metal.

In places like PHX and SAN, where US and UA share the same gate area, the RCC is only open to US Club members if they're flying on a same-day United-operated flight---despite being just steps away from the US Airways gates.

Still sounds like what some other carriers do. Not a US-only "issue."

US Airways themselves says these clubs are the lesser-used clubs. And of course they have NEVER lied to the customers or the media have they? Like blaming Labor for managements operational failures? Just as a for instance.

And in response to your discussion of WN/HP club users... that's irrelevant. As stated when the club closures were announced: Hardly irrelevent if they spent their hard earned dollars based on the expectation that the clubs would be in existance for at least the remainder of the year. US SHOULD have made the decision to close the clubs at the beginning of the year and offered discounts or refunds UPFRONT, but that would be to much to expect from a legacy carrier given their many years of dumping on customers.

"US Airways decided to close the Los Angeles and San Francisco Clubs in anticipation of later this year moving its terminals at those airports. There are no plans at this time to operate Clubs at the new terminal locations."

They'd lose usage when the airline moved anyway.

Sorry... Edited to add: They say they'll be moving closer to United, I gather into the same terminal at both locations, so United club usage will be allowed for the fee. Before people complain about the fee, other airlines are no better. Delta Crown Room Club members have to be on a same day Delta ticket to use the club, period. No usage when not traveling, no usage when on NW/CO codeshares even when it has a DL flight number.

You really don't want to have this discussion regarding the relative value for dollars expensed at the US Airways Club versus DL/CO/NW or the RCC do you? 16 clubs in 13 airports versus something like 40 for the NW/CO/DL codeshare and 30 some for the RCC! Not to mention free booze in CO/NW not sure on crown rooms. I could drink up the $25 in increased membership fees at the Presidents club in ONE visit, two at the most. The US Airways Clubs do NOT offer the value for dollars expensed compared to other options. The NW/CO/DL Club rules sound an awful lot like the rules we pay extra for.

Bob,

Crown Rooms have free Booze too...

And I have to agree they never considered the potential loss of revenue from passengers choosing to go elsewhere.

Also if you just flash your card to the agent and don't conduct any transactions, and pay cash for your libations, they really have no way of knowing you were there. (Confirmed by an agent). Again it is failure to consider the BIG picture.

There are many times I just go in, sit for a while, have a glass of juice and leave--to the company I was never there.

If I have to spend the hour waiting in the main terminal 1 at LAX, you can rest assured my transcon dollars are going elsewhere. Count on it.

I hear ya Art! Took all I could do to tell the travel agent to do the trip on US. If America West opens the club in LAX T-1, I think I have to make the move. Even with the double club fees it still might be worth it.

I averaged my transcons so far this year and if current travel patterns hold and assuming I switch to Am West this would represent around $3,175.00 in annualized lost revenue and that's assuming I keep my club membership.

Savvy customers have options. US would do well to remember that. Suppose I do switch ot AWA? That takes about 32 segments out of the 117 I did on US last year or 85 segments. This year at current travel level projects out to 139 segments with no Mileage runs. So I could easily earn Silver and maybe gold on AWA (with a few milage runs) and still maintain my CP status with US.

And in response to your discussion of WN/HP club users... that's irrelevant. As stated when the club closures were announced: Hardly irrelevent if they spent their hard earned dollars based on the expectation that the clubs would be in existance for at least the remainder of the year. US SHOULD have made the decision to close the clubs at the beginning of the year and offered discounts or refunds UPFRONT, but that would be to much to expect from a legacy carrier given their many years of dumping on customers.



While I don't have much time this evening to delve into your posts in detail, I will offer this little jewel from the US Airways Club terms and conditions, which are relatively simple, and you accepted them when you joined.


Club Membership Terms and Conditions

Memberships are non-refundable and non-transferable

Applicants must be 18 years of age or older

Prices, location and services subject to change without notice

Membership cards are for the sole use of the cardholder and may not be loaned to others


Like it or not, that's the airline's catch all and by joining you accepted it.

Club Membership Terms and Conditions

Memberships are non-refundable and non-transferable

Applicants must be 18 years of age or older

Prices, location and services subject to change without notice

Membership cards are for the sole use of the cardholder and may not be loaned to others


Like it or not, that's the airline's catch all and by joining you accepted it.

You forget, however, that Bob has received the standing offer of a refund (no mention of full or partial) from a US VP. And I'd bet of other roaches were so inclined, it could be escalated to others.

You forget, however, that Bob has received the standing offer of a refund (no mention of full or partial) from a US VP. And I'd bet of other roaches were so inclined, it could be escalated to others.

Right, to which he wasn't entitled, so he should be thankful because nothing says they have to give him a refund.

If I may ask, did Bob renew his club membership before or after the first round of club closings (IND/SYR/etc) because that right there showed US was liable to close clubs without notice, regardless of his agreement (by paying membership dues) to the right of US Airways to close clubs.

Bob,

Since you feel you are the enemy at US Airways, I ask why you continue to fly them.

You know, after reading all this back and forth diatribe, I've oftern wonder the same... Please, Bob, enlighten us. I think the time has come to move on... it can be done.

And yes, I know that most US employees are topnotch and among the best in the industry. Problem is, that a lot of them are leaving.

And of course they have NEVER lied to the customers or the media have they? Like blaming Labor for managements operational failures? Just as a for instance.

At first look, what happened in Philadelphia did look like a labor issue. However, that was straightened out.
I'm not going to rehash the reasons why US knows club usage stats as I've explained that thoroughly in a previous post on this thread.

Hardly irrelevent if they spent their hard earned dollars based on the expectation that the clubs would be in existance for at least the remainder of the year. US SHOULD have made the decision to close the clubs at the beginning of the year and offered discounts or refunds UPFRONT, but that would be to much to expect from a legacy carrier given their many years of dumping on customers.

Beginning of the year? Whose year? YOUR membership year? According to the website, and calling US Airways, membership runs one year from whenever you signed up. So no matter when they did it, it would be inconvenient for somebody. I see no reason why US should offer a refund. a.) terms and conditions say clubs can close at any time with no notice and b.) Club guidelines say "Memberships are not refundable and not transferable." To be honest, the only reason you probably got a refund offer is because they don't want to hear about it in the paper, and you had a contact. Those people who are pissed off enough to not rejoin the club won't be paying next year anyway, so why give back this year's money?

You really don't want to have this discussion regarding the relative value for dollars expensed at the US Airways Club versus DL/CO/NW or the RCC do you? 16 clubs in 13 airports versus something like 40 for the NW/CO/DL codeshare and 30 some for the RCC! Not to mention free booze in CO/NW not sure on crown rooms. I could drink up the $25 in increased membership fees at the Presidents club in ONE visit, two at the most. The US Airways Clubs do NOT offer the value for dollars expensed compared to other options. The NW/CO/DL Club rules sound an awful lot like the rules we pay extra for.

You know the drinks policy, and the terms/conditions at US Airways Clubs and still sign up for membership? If you don't think it's good value, don't sign up.

You know, after reading all this back and forth diatribe, I've oftern wonder the same... Please, Bob, enlighten us. I think the time has come to move on... it can be done.

And yes, I know that most US employees are topnotch and among the best in the industry. Problem is, that a lot of them are leaving.


Arrzee I am beginning to feel EXACTLY the same. The question is which carrier or cariers. For the last 3 to 4 weeks I've priced out trips on every other legacy carrier plus AWA and even Spirit as they fly from ACY. Have begun to examine clubs too.

The problem is that US Airways STILL offers the best options to many of the places I want/need to go. I'm going to do my homework in great detail and hang in through summer or C 7, If they don't pass the W.I.I.F.M (What's In It For Me)test then happy trails until we meet again.

You know, it amazes me that even the media can't get basic facts right, then again, not too long ago the Wall Street Journal wrote "American West Airlines" on a headline instead of America West. "Something special in the air" was AA's motto before they changed to "We know why you fly."

Based on past performance, US will close those clubs and declare Chapter 7 before they get moved in with United in LAX or SFO.

You know the drinks policy, and the terms/conditions at US Airways Clubs and still sign up for membership? If you don't think it's good value, don't sign up.


AHHHH the last refuge of an airline employee. "Read the Contract". I did and when I joined the west coast clubs were more important than the drink policy. Clearly that's changed.

And I know what the contract says about "change without notice" That doesn't mean I have to be happy with it. A great many are unhappy with Legacy carriers and their heavy handed approach to gouging customers. Well the bloom is off the rose and now they pay the price of lost pricing power as LCC's gain critical mass. You reap what you sow and alot of what you have fueling SWA, JB, and others growth is nothing more that consumer backlash to being treated in the manner with which loyal club member are treat by US.

You forget, however, that Bob has received the standing offer of a refund (no mention of full or partial) from a US VP. And I'd bet of other roaches were so inclined, it could be escalated to others.

I did send in my cards for a refund. It just posted the other day - refunded in full. Other than the fact that I am disappointed in the closing of the Clubs, at least US did the right thing and refunded my membership.

Oh, as to the terms and conditions of the contract. I would not worry about them too much. They are simply boiler plate which any competent judge would disregard. No judge will enforce a contract of adhesion.

Oh, as to the terms and conditions of the contract. I would not worry about them too much. They are simply boiler plate which any competent judge would disregard. No judge will enforce a contract of adhesion.A "contract of adhesion" is one in which one of the parties enjoys unequal bargaining power, and there is an element of necessity or coercion inducing the weaker party to enter into the contract.

Who, exactly, has forced anyone to join the US Airways Club?

Whether US entered into the contract in bad faith, knowing of its intentions to close a material number of clubs, would be a separate question (and might be the rationale for a limited number of refunds of memberships purchased during a narrow timeframe). But I don't think a judge in any jurisdiction would find the Terms and Conditions to be a contract of adhesion.

Of course neither this, nor, I would presume, the foregoing post is intended to provide legal advice to any individual, who should consult his own attorney before relying on it.

Based on past performance, US will close those clubs and declare Chapter 7 before they get moved in with United in LAX or SFO.

Who will need Clubs when you're all flying Southwest? ;)
I mean, there's not time to lounge at the Club bar, even paying for your drink, when you need to be sitting on the gate area floor staking out your place in line. At least a lot of airports have Wireless internet now.

A "contract of adhesion" is one in which one of the parties enjoys unequal bargaining power, and there is an element of necessity or coercion inducing the weaker party to enter into the contract.

Of course neither this, nor, I would presume, the foregoing post is intended to provide legal advice to any individual, who should consult his own attorney before relying on it.

Well, I don't have my Black's handy but I don't think that coercion need be present as long as there is no real ability to bargain or change the terms of a contract then, an adhesion defense may come into play.

But enough of this. I need to go back to chasing ambulances. :D