America West FlightFund (Discontinued Program) - UA consistantly underprices HP on PHX-SFO

It seems that every time I look to travel to the bay area, UA is offering a lower price than HP. I was looking to book a PHX-SFO ticket for 4-12 and returning on 4-22.

The results are usually as follows....

UA wipes the floor with HP (http://opsserver.dist.maricopa.edu/Image/byrd/uabeatshp.jpg)

This is the eighth ticket I bought on UA this year that would have normally gone to HP. At just over 10k miles, I'm almost half way to becoming elite on UA(haven't been for a few years). If HP's current over-pricing scheme continues, I may just find myself becoming Premier/Prem Exec on UA, and just silver on HP.

Now I only use HP for PHX-LAX/SAN/LAS. They lost my transcon business last year.

It seems that every time I look to travel to the bay area, UA is offering a lower price than HP. I was looking to book a PHX-SFO ticket for 4-12 and returning on 4-22.

The results are usually as follows....

UA wipes the floor with HP (http://opsserver.dist.maricopa.edu/Image/byrd/uabeatshp.jpg)

This is the eighth ticket I bought on UA this year that would have normally gone to HP. At just over 10k miles, I'm almost half way to becoming elite on UA(haven't been for a few years). If HP's current over-pricing scheme continues, I may just find myself becoming Premier/Prem Exec on UA, and just silver on HP.

Now I only use HP for PHX-LAX/SAN/LAS. They lost my transcon business last year.

HP feels that they can sell the seats for a higher fare. That's their perogative. So, you made a logical choice -- go with the cheaper carrier! HP's focus right now is clearly on the business traveler (who can afford to pay a little more). I have noticed they are not always matching the lowest fare in the market. If they can make money doing this, GREAT!

Byrd,
I don't know why you're not taking that $1,664 fare on American!

**If** UAL makes it out of bankruptcy those prices will change. In the meantime enjoy the ride while UAL is protected by the courts from economic reality.

HP feels that they can sell the seats for a higher fare. That's their perogative. So, you made a logical choice -- go with the cheaper carrier! HP's focus right now is clearly on the business traveler (who can afford to pay a little more). I have noticed they are not always matching the lowest fare in the market. If they can make money doing this, GREAT!

Yeah, but I can't be the only one seeing this fare disparity. Many business travellers don't have a choice on which airline they fly. With travel departments these days looking for the lowest fare, HP isn't going to catch a lot of corporate travel dollars by bilking them like a legacy carrier.

BTB fares work if you have a lock on routes, but PHX has WN with more frequency on many of the same routes.

If HP wants to gamble for a possible dime, instead of collect a guaranteed nickel then I think they'll lose in the end. They've already lost 8 tickets from me. Who else are they losing business from?

I don't know why you're not taking that $1,664 fare on American!

I like AA, but not that much.

**If** UAL makes it out of bankruptcy...

If UA makes it out of BK with a viable plan. HP should be worried. They'll have a significant lower cost structure which will allow them to compete with HP on pricing at the same time using an expansion of TED to feed their intl traffic.

With a successful exit from Ch.11 and their significant ops in LAX and SFO, I can see UA becoming a significant player in the southwest.

Byrd - when was your last 8 flights? If HP has the same load factors as UA but is selling them at a higher price - I would guess HP is doing better. With record load factors of 82.6% for the month of March (I don't think planes are going out empty) plus they are charging a few bucks more, hopefully they will make a profit.

I thought OAK was your airport?

Bear in mind UA has far more significant operations at SFO, so they likely keep the feeder costs lower to connect to transcon and international operations. HP, on the other hand, has to manage profitability based solely on their routes to and from LAS and PHX.

I have found that, in the long run, HP has proven less expensive than UA for about 95% of my travel since I switched from UA to HP a year ago.

Byrd - when was your last 8 flights?

Well I've done 7 RT's since the beginning of March. four of which were on UA.

With record load factors of 82.6% for the month of March

March was a fluke, as easter and spring break fell in the same month. Even some HP mgmt were quoted as saying they don't expect to be able to maintain that high of a load factor during the summer.

I thought OAK was your airport?

I use OAK still. However, it can be more of a pain to use OAK to get to downtown Oakland that SFO. At SFO you can just hop on the airport train to the Bart station and be on your way. At OAK you have to wait 10-15 minutes for the Air Bart bus , then ride for 10 minutes only to for then another 10-15 for the next train at the Coliseum Bart station.

It seems that every time I look to travel to the bay area, UA is offering a lower price than HP. I was looking to book a PHX-SFO ticket for 4-12 and returning on 4-22.

The results are usually as follows....

UA wipes the floor with HP (http://opsserver.dist.maricopa.edu/Image/byrd/uabeatshp.jpg)

This is the eighth ticket I bought on UA this year that would have normally gone to HP. At just over 10k miles, I'm almost half way to becoming elite on UA(haven't been for a few years). If HP's current over-pricing scheme continues, I may just find myself becoming Premier/Prem Exec on UA, and just silver on HP.

Now I only use HP for PHX-LAX/SAN/LAS. They lost my transcon business last year.


UA is fairly liberal in handing out comps. I'd ask them to comp you and at least get some extra miles out of it, and make it more worthwhile to you. :)

UA is fairly liberal in handing out comps. I'd ask them to comp you and at least get some extra miles out of it, and make it more worthwhile to you. :)

Rightyo. I'd print off a copy of your latest FF statement and call Mileage Plus and ask them for the fax number of the Elite Status Match desk. Type up a quick cover letter, and they'll comp you within a week (although for me it took 1 afternoon) up to PremExec.

At least this way in the interim you'll get a 100% mileage bonus and you won't have to sit all the way in the back. ^

Well I'm still on the edge. If HP eliminates these ripoff fares, then I'll be back to booking all my flights on HP. I'll wait a little longer as I'd hate to ask for a status comp and then not use it.

Bear in mind UA has far more significant operations at SFO, so they likely keep the feeder costs lower to connect to transcon and international operations. HP, on the other hand, has to manage profitability based solely on their routes to and from LAS and PHX.

I have found that, in the long run, HP has proven less expensive than UA for about 95% of my travel since I switched from UA to HP a year ago.

Not exactly! HP has hubs at Phoenix and, to a certain extent, Las Vegas. They are actually managing their higher profit CONNECTING traffic as well. What HP is effectively saying is that they can get higher fares from connecting traffic into SFO (e.g. xxx-PHX-SFO) than they can get from local PHX-SFO traffic.

HP is only selectively matching lower fares. I fly from PHX-SEA and have noticed that HP often does not match WN's "fare sales" (or HP matches on more restrictive dates). Same thing with AS on the same route. I more often find myself booking WN (even though I don't care for their non-assigned seating).

Well I'm still on the edge. If HP eliminates these ripoff fares, then I'll be back to booking all my flights on HP. I'll wait a little longer as I'd hate to ask for a status comp and then not use it.

Well that's good. If you got a status comp, wouldn't that require you to change your name? :p

With a successful exit from Ch.11 and their significant ops in LAX and SFO, I can see UA becoming a significant player in the southwest.
Huh? I think UA would rather be a significant player on a more global scale rather than on a regional basis.

OTOH, my situation is your exact opposite. I would prefer to fly LAX-PHX-LAX on UA, however for the past 8 months I've had to fly HP because the R/T fare was about US$80.00 lower.

If HP's current over-pricing scheme continues, I may just find myself becoming Premier/Prem Exec on UA, and just silver on HP.



Its really United that is underpricing the market. Is something going on that United is trying to punish America West for something else?

Huh? I think UA would rather be a significant player on a more global scale rather than on a regional basis.


How do you think they'll feed that growing global network? They're not going to just give up their domestic feed.

Don't think for one minite that UA wouldn't use their new found reduced cost structure to compete with HP/WN.

Bump. I feel Byrd's pain as I wanted a one way from SFO-PHX on July 4th. HP priced out at as $106 without tax while UA was $69.20 all in. The choice was obvious, I can't justify $50 or so extra dollars for a shot at a First Class seat.

Bump. I feel Byrd's pain as I wanted a one way from SFO-PHX on July 4th. HP priced out at as $106 without tax while UA was $69.20 all in. The choice was obvious, I can't justify $50 or so extra dollars for a shot at a First Class seat.

Hey, if UA is going to sell you a $69 seat from SFO to PHX, you should buy it. Obviously, that's not likely to be a sustainable fare. AWA's fare seems, well, fair.

Bump. I feel Byrd's pain as I wanted a one way from SFO-PHX on July 4th. HP priced out at as $106 without tax while UA was $69.20 all in. The choice was obvious, I can't justify $50 or so extra dollars for a shot at a First Class seat.

I know how you feel.

Strange that we're looking on the same route. I'm looking for a PHX-Bay Area ticket for the memorial day weekend. HP is pricing at $218 RT before taxes. UA is pricing at about $50 less. :rolleyes:

However, upon further investigation, I can pick up an extra segment through LAS for the same price. :confused:

A couple of weeks ago my wife and I decided to take her cousin to San Francisco for a Memorial Day weekend as a graduation gift. IIRC HP wanted something like $250pp, UA wanted about $120. The choice was obvious as the savings would cover the hotel suite for an additional night.

Since we are a party of 3 I knew that sitting up front wasn't in the cards on HP. Given that, I would much rather occupy the exit row on a nice clean A320 than deal with the 737 that HP would have had on the route. HP's fares are crazy on this route and, frankly, for an inferior product.... and we're comparing to Ted on this one.

...than deal with the 737 that HP would have had on the route.


Wow! I didn't know that HP used the crappy 737's to SFO. That's embarassing. Hmmm let's see, an A320 over a 737, E+ seating, and a savings of $130. Not even the most rabid HP fan(would that be me? :D ) could blame you for taking TED.


HP's fares are crazy on this route and, frankly, for an inferior product.... and we're comparing to Ted on this one.

Yeah, I thought I would hate TED, but it's been a lifesaver for my flights to the Bay area. Now if only TED served PHX-LAX.

I just booked two flights, and am on UA because of the better fare they offered. This was true PHX-DEN-PHX and PHX-YYZ-PHX. According to our corporate travel service, AMEX, HP is no longer the lowest fare carrier into and out of PHX and as such, loosing a lot my business from my company, one of the largest in the PHX area.

One other note.....be careful about matched elite status on UA. They keep records and will only do it one time. I just encountered this first hand, so plan according!

According to our corporate travel service, AMEX, HP is no longer the lowest fare carrier into and out of PHX...

Wow, so AMEX is moving business away from HP?


...and as such, loosing a lot my business from my company, one of the largest in the PHX area.


Care to elaborate? ;)

Wow, so AMEX is moving business away from HP?



Care to elaborate? ;)

Coporate policy dictates taking the lowest fare carrier.....this used to always be HP from PHX, but is no longer the case. I doubt I'll requalify for elite status next year given this!

...my company, one of the largest in the PHX area.

Actually, I was wondering what company you work for, if you're at liberty to say.

I know how you feel.

Strange that we're looking on the same route. I'm looking for a PHX-Bay Area ticket for the memorial day weekend. HP is pricing at $218 RT before taxes. UA is pricing at about $50 less. :rolleyes:

However, upon further investigation, I can pick up an extra segment through LAS for the same price. :confused:

If UA lowered all fares out of PHX to $39 roundtrip, would HP's pricing be automatically "extortion"-leve fares?

I believe that HP is doing the right thing. They are being much more disciplined in a crazy pricing environment. HP is trying to survive the mayhem called the airline industry. If that means that a $218 fare is extortion, so be it.

BTW, I only paid $198 for Memorial Day to go from PHX-SEA and $189 for the 4th of July on AS. I refused to pay HP's higher fares. That's what you must do as a consumer. I'm not mad about it!

Actually, United received some very bad news yesterday from a federal appeals court. Basically, the appeals court overturned a stay from the bankruptcy judge regarding repossession of aircraft. Lenders will be allowed to repossess aircraft for which United has not been paying it's agreed upon rate and that United cannot continue to hide in bankruptcy to get reduced rates on it's aircraft from leasing companies with the leasing companies powerless to do anything about it.

BTW, I only paid $198 for Memorial Day to go from PHX-SEA and $189 for the 4th of July on AS.

Unfortunately, AS is not and option. They don't serve the Bay area from PHX without a stop in PDX. That fare always seems to be in the $400+ range :eek:

Besides, AS is having some terrible on-time performance problems (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425601), and a potential strike/Chaos is looming.

Unfortunately, AS is not and option. They don't serve the Bay area from PHX without a stop in PDX. That fare always seems to be in the $400+ range :eek:

Besides, AS is having some terrible on-time performance problems (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425601), and a potential strike/Chaos is looming.

I know that AS only flies to SEA, PDX, and ANC from PHX. My point was that I refused to pay HP's higher fares and chose a competitor (in this case, AS).

Yes, I have been very vocal here about AS's POOR on-time performance. However, my luck has been equally bad on WN and HP (actually Mesa which doesn't count toward HP's performance).

Deleted duplicate post.

I think it's great that AWA can hit their goals at a higher rate, I've been whining about fares being too low for years. I was an exclusive (whenever there was a choice) UA customer for 15+ years, but I bailed on them a few years back.

I prefer HP's service and can justify the difference based on schedule and on time performance.

Here's one customer that hopes to see fares rise some this year. Let's chase the bad guys into liquidation and have fares float to a free market system that isn't screwed up by bankruptcy cover and government intervention.

KevAZ --

I'm right there with you. If they can tighten bankruptcy rules for individuals, then they need to tighten bankruptcy rules for companies. There should be a strict limitation on the time companies can operate under bankruptcy protection. I am thinking a maximum of one year before they must find financing or cease operations.