America West FlightFund (Discontinued Program) - Enforcing Federal Regulations

I would like to know why America West flight attendants generally enforce the baggage regulations, but fail to enforce the seat belt regulations.

I didn't get upgraded and had an aisle seat in the back section of the plane. The seatbelt sign was on. It was turbulent. The flight attendants in the back of the Airbus were in their jump seats, one facing forward. I was asleep. The next thing I know, this huge man is on my lap. My drink, which was on my tray table with my hand around it, was spilled all over my suit.

In the safety demo they state that federal regulations require passengers to comply with lighted information signs and crew member instructions, yet they do not make people sit down. This happens time after time after time. What gives here? Maybe some of you HP employees could shed some light on this.

I would like to know why America West flight attendants generally enforce the baggage regulations, but fail to enforce the seat belt regulations.

I didn't get upgraded and had an aisle seat in the back section of the plane. The seatbelt sign was on. It was turbulent. The flight attendants in the back of the Airbus were in their jump seats, one facing forward. I was asleep. The next thing I know, this huge man is on my lap. My drink, which was on my tray table with my hand around it, was spilled all over my suit.

In the safety demo they state that federal regulations require passengers to comply with lighted information signs and crew member instructions, yet they do not make people sit down. This happens time after time after time. What gives here? Maybe some of you HP employees could shed some light on this.

I'm not an HP passenger, but I can try to comment on your message on the interim until some flight attendant gets a moment to respond.

I'd imagine that, first, it is hard to ensure that all seat belts are on, as during the compliance checks people are leaning to the front, have coats covering themselves, etc, and to wake everybody up would take too long and endanger their own safety.

In regards to not enforcing the rules, when turbulence has been mild at best and I've "Really Had to Go" :p one FA got on the PA to mention that being up out of your seat to use the facilities during a seat-belt-on period was at your own risk. After this, I noticed that many FAs did this when anybody moved to get up during turbulence.

I'm not sure why they didn't do this when your seatmate got up. Perhaps they didn't see him, or were concentrating on another issue, I couldn't comment.

Any flight attendants like to comment?

A brief postscript - I've noticed the one time FAs don't seem to complain about people getting up during turbulence is when the passenger is running into the bathroom holding their abdomen & mouth from airsickness. ;)

In this case, that passenger was the only one on the plane to get beverage service even though it was cancelled due to extreme weather. I wonder... a new way to get extra beverage service?

I'd imagine that, first, it is hard to ensure that all seat belts are on, as during the compliance checks people are leaning to the front, have coats covering themselves, etc, and to wake everybody up would take too long and endanger their own safety.

Fly on AA. If you fall asleep with the seatbelt covered by your blanket, they'll wake you up. They even tell you uring preflight to fasten your seatbelt on the outside of the blanket so they won't have to disturb you.

I was asleep. ... My drink, which was on my tray table with my hand around it...

I would say you set yourself up for this to happen. I always finish my drink before sleeping, since you can't always predict when turbulence will occur.

I would say you set yourself up for this to happen. I always finish my drink before sleeping, since you can't always predict when turbulence will occur.

Probably the best advice. ^

It's not the spilled drink that I object to, as much as the 250+ pound ape that landed on my head and then my lap. He was not my seatmate, but came up from closer to the front of the a/c. Passengers should be made to comply with the seat belt signs "for their safety and the safety of those they may fall upon!"

Had it been unexpected turbulence, I could understand. But the seat belt sign was lit, had been lit for some time, and we were experiencing turbulence. He should have been seated. The flight attendants should enforce this federal regulation. What if he had fallen on a young child or a frail older person. They could have been seriously hurt. Not that I'm very large at a whopping 102 pounds.

If I had been injured, I think a claim could have been made against America West for not enforcing the federal regulations. I feel they were negligent in their duties in not making these people comply.

BTW, ByrdluvsAWACO - I have heard the same announcement on America West about fastening the seatbelts outside of their outer clothing and/or blanket.

I suggest you write to AWA Customer Relations, state your case and ask what the rules are in regards to your particular situation. It would be interesting to see what they say.

All I can say is I know what I do, but for a lot of reasons I am not going to post it here. I do know what the company says, what our FAA cabin inspector says, etc. But again, I am not posting that information here.

I would be real interested to see what Customer Relations says, especially since the bumpy time of year is quickly approaching.

p.s. - I will say one thing and that is IMO we have too many announcements and they are too verbose. The customers seem to "turn off" listening to the announcements because they tire of hearing all of it and it lessens the chance they will hear, or differentiate, an important announcement from a less important announcement.

BTW, ByrdluvsAWACO - I have heard the same announcement on America West about fastening the seatbelts outside of their outer clothing and/or blanket.

Yeah, but AA really enforces it. The FA's walk down the aisle and do a seatbelt inspection numerous times during the flight.

It's not the spilled drink that I object to, as much as the 250+ pound ape that landed on my head and then my lap. He was not my seatmate, but came up from closer to the front of the a/c. Passengers should be made to comply with the seat belt signs "for their safety and the safety of those they may fall upon!"

Had it been unexpected turbulence, I could understand. But the seat belt sign was lit, had been lit for some time, and we were experiencing turbulence. He should have been seated. The flight attendants should enforce this federal regulation. What if he had fallen on a young child or a frail older person. They could have been seriously hurt. Not that I'm very large at a whopping 102 pounds.



We have traffic safety laws, but people blow them off all the time. Cigarette smokers litter their butts everywhere in complete disregard of the law. There are laws against shining lasers into airplane cockpits, but people do. Bottom line is that people often disregard the "rules." Sometimes playing "defense" to protect ourselves is all we can do. In a plane of 100+ passengers there is going to always be one moron. That's a reasonable expectation.

America West is not law enforcement. They make a conscious effort to inform and check passengers, but that doesn't prevent a passenger from taking the belt off or disguising his latched belt.

If you want to waste more time and write America West go ahead....in my opinion, that would be futile.

In a plane of 100+ passengers there is going to always be one moron.

Gotta agree with you there. I was on a flight back from MSP and was in 3B and we had a medical emergency in the back of the plane. They announced this once we landed and the captain asked everyone to remain seated when we pulled to the gate so the paramedics could get on and get the pax off the plane. We hit the gate and they open the door (seems they opened the door alot faster than they normally do :) ) and the guy in 3C stands up and starts getting his stuff out of the overhead bin. They had to ask at least one more time before the guy sat his butt down. He was totally oblivious to the announcements. He wasn't asleep when they made them and didn't have headphones on. Just didn't give a flying crap and wanted off the plane. Some people listen to the rules some people don't. It's a fact of life.

Lance

Snaggletooth, I am sorry that happened to you :(
FAs are required to do a seat belt check whenever the sign is turned on, BUT, we also are advised not to put ourselves at risk. If you saw the FAs buckled in during your situation, it was prob too turbulent to move about the cabin. In which case we rely on announcements only. No one wants to go out on OJI...major dent in the pocketbook!
Has anyone ever heard us say, "for your safety and the saftey of those around you"? The pilots say this a lot. What we really mean is, "for your safety and the safety of the pax you will end up falling on".
Pax choose to disregard. If we argued with them every time, we'd never get the service done :rolleyes: !

Thank you, Lifer, for your very nice reply. I still don't understand, though. I have a very deep respect for flight attendants. I have seen first-hand how difficult your jobs can be. I have seen passengers argue with flight attendants about the number and size of carry-ons allowed even though there are signs located throughout the airport and it is printed on the ticket jacket. I have seen passengers in the bulkheads argue about putting their carry-ons in the overhead. I have also seen disruptive passengers and passengers caught smoking. And, I have seen the flight attendants insist that the passengers comply with these federal regulations. So, why is it that passengers are not required to comply with the seat belt regulation. Is it, or is it not a federal regulation. Is it just a suggestion for their safety? Do your announcements not read something like "federal regulations REQUIRE passengers to comply with crewmember instructions and lighted information signs"? I'm confused on this issue. Perhaps you could clarify it.

And, by the way, no one asked the flight attendants to get up during turbulence. It just makes sense to me that if the flight attendants are buckled in, it's WAY too turbulent for passengers to be up. His "all-about-me" attitude could have caused the plane to be diverted had he broken my neck when he fell on my head or my arm when he ended up sprawled across me. I have seen flight attendants in the aisle trying to do a beverage service during mild turbulence. In my opinion, their safety and well-being is far more important than a passenger receiving a beverage. I realize that you all have a job to do, but sometimes I cringe when I see how you all put yourselves at risk for the comfort of passengers. You are a bunch of brave souls!

I feel for you. Luckily you weren't hurt. However, if you *had* a cause of action against anyone, it would be the gentleman who gave you the lap dance.

I believe it's difficult when airlines will put the fasten seatbelt sign on for long periods of time. Sometimes you just need to stretch your legs or use the lavatory. Then again, some people are just dumb, and don't think about the consequences.

The only way to "enforce" the seat belt rule, is to make sure pax know the sign is on, and, at the most, ask them to return to their seat.
We can not manhandle them back to their seat, or buckle it for them.

Another FA was telling me there was an FAA inspector on one of their flights who actually stopped a female pax at the end of the flight and lectured her about her disregard for the sign during the flight, and possible fines he could slap her with if he were so inclined.

A few years ago, I also had an inspector onboard a long-haul. He was taking a break from observing the pilots and sat in the last row so he could eat a left-over meal (back when we comped them).
He expressed amazement at all the pax who diregarded the sign and at one point even spoke out to a man who was standing next to his aisle seat and said something about the sign and that the guy could fall on him. The man said "What are ya gonna do? When ya gotta go, ya gotta go!" and laffed him off. We were in the galley thinking, "welcome to our world!"

Don't forget we are between a rock and a hard spot in that our job is to maintain 100's of FARs, while not making anyone mad about it.

I am a firm believer of pax having their seatbelts fastened at all times, including while seated because of CAT (Clear Air Turbulance) -- something I have experienced and it's not pretty. When the sign does come on because of turbulance/etc, I know most airlines will do a quick check of all passengers and will even wake pax if the seatbelt is underneath a blanket to check. They will also suggest you fasten the seatbelt over the blanket/etc at the beginning of the flight for those who will be sleeping.

However, lately on many US domestic flights, especially CO Express, I am finding it's rare that the seatbelt sign is even turned off. Flying conditions on most of these flights seem fine to me as a passenger, but the sign just never seems to get turned off (and we're talking longer ERJ flights in the 2 to 2 1/2 hr range). When this happens, I sometimes believe the pilot has forgotten to turn it off or is keeping it on to keep the aisles clear.

To play devil's advocate now:

When this happens, I find that passengers start to disregard the fasten seatbelt sign for lav use etc. This begs the question, when is it really safe to get up and move about the cabin? Fact of life is people have to use the lav from time to time.

Best,

SDF_Traveler (in MEL)

At least one reason that the seatbelt sign might remain on is that the pilots may have heard some information on the radio about the ride ahead. Sometimes bad stuff is said to be ahead and yet we never that turbulence because it has moved elsewhere then where we happen to be. Also, they have a much better view out their window then the passengers, so they may see something ahead.

And yes, sometimes they do forget and it takes a phone call to the flight deck to remind them the light is still on.

BTW, I suspect that passenegrs might be upset if we actually fully enforced to the maximum degree all the FAR's (and TSA interactions with those FAR's) 100% of the time. I am not going to address the issue further, but suggest you think about what you ask for. You may not like it.

Greetings. I am also an AWA FA and I thought I would sign up in order to jump in on this discussion.

Enforcing FAA regulations in many cases is like yelling into a wind tunnel. Passengers see your mouth moving but don't hear a thing. Here's a little background on the seat belt situation:

Yes, we are to enforce the seatbelt rule. However, we are also told (this was in our recurrent training book last year) we (FAs) cannot prohibit a passenger access to the lav when "nature calls". I can not tell you how many times passengers and crew have been injured by passengers not adhereing to the seatbelt sign. Part of the problem is most passengers do not respect the crew when we attempt to enforce the rules. It is not unusual for a passenger to argue with the crew and tells us how to do our job. Here is a typical exchange:

FA: "Sir, it is very turbulant and the seatbelt sign is on. Please return to your seat for your safety."

Pax: "No, no, it's okay!"

Carry-on baggage:

FA: "Sir/Ma'am", good morning, the carry-on policy is one carry-on item and one personal item. You have four items, (rollerboard, computer case, garment bag and brief case). You will have to check two items."

Pax: No, no, it's okay!"

Let's talk carry-on policy: The gate agent is responsible for enforcing the carry-on policy before the passengers board the aircraft. Should passengers make it on board the a/c with too many or oversized items, then it is the Flight Attendants' responsiblity to check the items. Letters in Flight Attendants' files and possible discipline are a reality should our FAA inspector, Christine Jordan, be monitoring the flight.

For the most part, our "Heavy Metal" (Silver, Gold, Plat.) are fabulous!!!!!!! You are very understanding that the FAs have to enforce these rules, and it is rare you give us any grief. This is the reason I choose to work in F/C. However, since AWA has implemented the walk up "up grade fee", I see more and more passengers giving us problems. Ususally this is the individual or family who travel/s only once or twice a year.

I'm in my 18th year as a AWA FA. The only "Heavy Metal" passengers I have ever had any problems with in regard to following FAA regulations or FA direction is SNA (Orange County). Considering all the cities we serve, it is clear the majority of our "Heavy Metal" passengers are a pleasure.

Sorry that happened to you! I have seen it happen several times. As an fa I do what I am required to do and tell the pax the seat belt sign is on and they need to return to their seat....then it starts "whatever", "do you want me to pee in my seat?", "can I just go real quick?", "I've been flying for years and never been hurt, you must be new!"....and the list goes on. And like someone else mentioned on here, a lot of pax just don't listen to us. And when we say the seat belt sign is on...we are seen as a nag and being mean...even though I say it as sweetly as possible.

Anyway I do understand sometimes nature calls and so I just say what is required of me and when they push the issue I just politely tell them I am doing my job and they are at their own risk. It gets frustrating on a long haul when you have to repeat yourself 30 times. And most of us do a seat belt ck unless it is unsafe for us to be out in the cabin as well.

Sorry you had to experience that. You asked why pax are not required to comply with seat belt regs? They are required but they just don't. Short of calling the police to meet the flight and talk to the dozens that ignored regulations...not much we can do at this point. We tell them then they are at their own risk. There is another alternative but we don't want to push it and I can't discuss it on here...you wouldn't want it to go that far believe me.

One thing I think that really leads to this is the lack of perceived turbulance a big percentage of the time while the seatbelt sign is on. I have been on many flights but really haven't had "bad" turbulance on any of them. By bad I mean nothing that would really throw me off my feet and get me hurt. I really think people are of the mindset that "They are just being overly cautious and it's not really gonna be that bad." The amount of time that seatbelt sign is on because the captain "was informed that we were going to hit turbulance" and it never materializes desensitizes passengers to the sign. I'm sure had a pax actually experienced bad turbulance one of those times they were told it was forthcoming they would be a bit better at bladder management. There are times the seatbelt sign is on for about 80% of the flight and you have to go when it is on.

I'm sure pax see it as the FA is being "naggy" but I'm sure from the FA standpoint it's a CYA thing. There are times I've had to use the restroom quite urgently when the seatbelt sign was on but it's usually during the last part of the flight right before final and not due to turbulance.

Thanks again for the input from the employees. It's nice to hear from you.

Lance