Northwest WorldPerks (Discontinued Program) [closed to posting] - Do flights wait for non-essential crew?

I was on MSP-SLC evening flight last Friday. There was a ground stop at MSP earlier that evening (6-7 I think) but this flight was at 9:23PM so by that time traffic was moving again. Plane was boarded and ready by 9:15. But we were advised we would be stuck until atleast 10 because they needed a crew member who was on a delayed incoming flight.

About 10:10 a pilot comes onboard, takes a seat in FC and off we go. Now from my vantage point I could not see the cockpit door, and it is possible that another crew member slid in at the same time as this off-duty pilot.

But I can't help thinking we were waiting for the guy needed for next day's AM flight. Should we have to wait 50 minutes for that? And he also took someone's (possibly mine :mad: ) FC upgrade seat.

Is this common?

kaspar

If you had been a passenger on a Saturday flight out of SLC, you would have considered the pilot to be essential.

This is yet another example of where the airline knows more of the story than the OP. Maybe you shouldn't have to wait, but what harm did it really do? You got in 30 or 40 minutes later than scheduled and the flight the next morning was able to leave. IF that is even what he was on there for, which you are assuming, but don't know for sure.

You also state the pilot was "off duty" well the other thread that talks about employee seating states:

"On duty" means being on a trip. A trip always starts and ends at your base....so everything in-between the start/finish of your trip is on-duty. Deadheading can only occur while on duty.

"Commuting" is going to/from work. I live in Omaha and commuted to MSP and DTW. I was not deadheading, and I was not on duty. Sometimes I wore my uniform.....sometimes I did not. 95% of the time I was listed as the jumpseat rider, but I was seated in an open seat in the main cabin.

Other airlines occasionally need to re-position crews around their system, and you will see them in either of the above roles as well. If they are on duty, their company has purchased a ticket and they are essentially a paid passenger in a uniform. If they are off-duty, they might be in the commuter category and are just heading to/from work. In that situation they are jumpseating. After 9/11 "other airline" jumpseaters were not allowed to sit in the cockpit.

I believe NW has some sort of ticketing agreement with Alaska that helps get all of our commuting pilots up to our base in ANC. If you fly on Alaska up into ANC you'll see a lot of NW 747 types flying to/from work. I'm not clear on how that whole process works though....

So I doubt he was "off duty", but possibly one of the other options stated above. Maybe not even a NW pilot, but a full fare passenger who happens to work for another airline.

If there had been a ground stop earlier in the day, then Irregular Ops are to be expected for hours afterward.

Yes, he was probably required for the morning flight. The airline's philosophy is that if that one individual doesn't get on that flight, 148 will have to be accommodated the following morning.......so it IS worth the delay that is incurred.

This week I deadheaded to Dallas to fly the scheduled flight back. I took a seat on a full aircraft that a paying passenger would have otherwise held.....the 100 people in Dallas that I brought back appreciated the sacrifice of the person that lost their seat. I also flew a flight down to Dallas and deadheaded back, in order to be back in MSP and be available to fly another flight the night we had the big snow. Today I deadheaded back from DTW and will deadhead up to Duluth in the morning to bring that flight back to MSP, then ATL, then DTW, and deadhead back to MSP late tomorrow night. You can see that if I don't get up to Duluth tomorrow, an entire string of DC-9 flights won't have a pilot........the snowball effect really exists when crews get out of position during inclement weather!

Our contract requires the company to seat us in First if a seat exists.....not sure how that all fits in with you folks looking for your upgrades. Deadhead is a considered a "Must Ride"......someone up in the command center makes the decision on whether to take a delay and the ramifications down the road of not getting that person on the aircraft.

Yes, he was probably required for the morning flight. The airline's philosophy is that if that one individual doesn't get on that flight, 148 will have to be accommodated the following morning.......so it IS worth the delay that is incurred.

This week I deadheaded to Dallas to fly the scheduled flight back. I took a seat on a full aircraft that a paying passenger would have otherwise held.....the 100 people in Dallas that I brought back appreciated the sacrifice of the person that lost their seat. I also flew a flight down to Dallas and deadheaded back, in order to be back in MSP and be available to fly another flight the night we had the big snow. Today I deadheaded back from DTW and will deadhead up to Duluth in the morning to bring that flight back to MSP, then ATL, then DTW, and deadhead back to MSP late tomorrow night. You can see that if I don't get up to Duluth tomorrow, an entire string of DC-9 flights won't have a pilot........the snowball effect really exists when crews get out of position during inclement weather!

Our contract requires the company to seat us in First if a seat exists.....not sure how that all fits in with you folks looking for your upgrades. Deadhead is a considered a "Must Ride"......someone up in the command center makes the decision on whether to take a delay and the ramifications down the road of not getting that person on the aircraft.

Good inside info. ^ ^ ^ ^

Should a pilot "DEADHEADED" on a 744, would he be given a WBC seat? Could he take the bunker upstairs for FAs instead of occupying a passenger seat?

Good inside info. ^ ^ ^ ^

Should a pilot "DEADHEADED" on a 744, would he be given a WBC seat? Could he take the bunker upstairs for FAs instead of occupying a passenger seat?


It's my understanding that they must be given a F/C seat of their own. The F/A bunks are just that, for the F/A's, so the pilots could not be assigned to them, in addition to the fact that nobody can be in the bunks for take off or landing so the pilot would need a cabin seat for that.

Is this common?
I questioned my 2 hour delay on January 2nd flying MSP-SEA when we had to wait for our pilot coming in from another flight (this was the last flight out of the day). My issue was with NW's Crew Scheduling system. We were in MSP... the main NW hub! I was kind of amazed that the NW Crew System couldn't have called in another 757 qualified pilot in MSP to work our flight. Based on the inbound flight of the scheduled pilot, a dynamic, fully automated Crew Management System could have dispatched and brought in a replacement pilot, and done so w/o impacting the PAX. :D ^ I work in IT, what can I say? ;)

-A

But I can't help thinking we were waiting for the guy needed for next day's AM flight. Should we have to wait 50 minutes for that? And he also took someone's (possibly mine :mad: ) FC upgrade seat.
I hope this pilot was doing something worthwhile for themself while they were making you and your entire flight late! :rolleyes: And for the pilot to get a FC upgrade on top of it! :mad:

The pilot should have been demoted to "the jumper seat" and their FC seat released to the next Elite member on the waiting list. On top of that, if I were the crew lead on the flight, I would have made the pilot clean the bathrooms once you got to your destinantion. :D

-A

I questioned my 2 hour delay on January 2nd flying MSP-SEA when we had to wait for our pilot coming in from another flight (this was the last flight out of the day). My issue was with NW's Crew Scheduling system. We were in MSP... the main NW hub! I was kind of amazed that the NW Crew System couldn't have called in another 757 qualified pilot in MSP to work our flight. Based on the inbound flight of the scheduled pilot, a dynamic, fully automated Crew Management System could have dispatched and brought in a replacement pilot, and done so w/o impacting the PAX. :D ^ I work in IT, what can I say? ;)

-A

Sometimes this is easier said than done. For example, there is a cost issue here. NW would have to pay the substitute pilot AND the original pilot for the flight, if they used a substitute pilot. Sometimes, there is a creeping delay on the pilot's inbound flight (originally looks like 15 minutes, but becomes 2 hours). Overall, airlines do a fairly good job of replacing crews but it is not always practical or possible.

Sometimes this is easier said than done. For example, there is a cost issue here. NW would have to pay the substitute pilot AND the original pilot for the flight, if they used a substitute pilot. Sometimes, there is a creeping delay on the pilot's inbound flight (originally looks like 15 minutes, but becomes 2 hours). Overall, airlines do a fairly good job of replacing crews but it is not always practical or possible.

In addition every pilot based in MSP does not live in MSP. Pilots and Crew live all over the country and "report" to work as scheduled. Some standby or reserve crews have to live within a certain distance from the airport, but not all the pilots and crews.

I don't think the schedulers just sit back and say "let the plane wait" if there is a viable option. I am sure they try to get other pilots/crew when possible, but it just is not always possible.

If airlines could keep "extra" crews around than they would be loosing even more money than they already are. A pilot/FA/mechanic etc. is not a spare tire. You can not just keep one on the shelf for when you need it.

Like I said in my post, I don't know the exact details, only what I could observe and deduce. Maybe two pilots came onboard at 10:10, one for my plane and one for next mornings, it was hard for me to see. But I did see a pilot sit down in F/C and then we left immediately. So I wonder.

Adding to the whole situation was the lack of information from the flight crew. Not a single announcement was made at gate before I boarded or in the plane. Instead I was told by a late-boarding passenger sitting next to me, because gate staff told him when he boarded. Maybe a gate announcement was made half-way through boarding process? But nothing was said in the plane itself. Instead we had the usual congregation of giggling f/a in the galley.

I took a seat on a full aircraft that a paying passenger would have otherwise held.....the 100 people in Dallas that I brought back appreciated the sacrifice of the person that lost their seat. Out of curiosity -- why didn't you take the jumpseat rather than displace the pax?

Boy, I'm amazed at how much griping is going on here. Pilots are the ones responsible for getting us safely to and from our destinations. If we have to wait for one to show up, so be it. And to deny us a FC seat to accomodate one of them is simply outrageous :rolleyes:

However, that issue poses an interesting issue. Most of the legacy carriers have crews change aircrafts throughout the day...I'm sure all of us have been delayed waiting for flight crew to show up for a flight. However, what seems more logical is to follow Southwest's model - they have a crew stick with a plane for the entire shift. AA announced a shift to that system last year...not sure if it was ever completed. Seems to me that would be a much easier staffing model to deploy and manage...seems to have saved SW some $$ (delays won't propogate due to crew transfers)...the only issue would be with routing and aircraft types.

Now I'm not a pilot or FA, so perhaps those of you with the first-hand experience can comment on this type of staffing model.

SW is a point to point model, most Legacies are still a Hub and Spoke model.
I am not that familiar with SW, but I would assume their schedule gets the plane back to the starting point in a day or two. NW planes Go from hub to point to another hub to another point to another hub to another point. Some I think go back and forth between the same hub and point and others do not.

SW also has basically or maybe totally all the same type of bird. NW has many variations from at least 4 different companies. If there are 4 directs from say DFW-MSP on any given day, 1 flight might be a DC-9, 1 flight an A-319 and 2 flights an ARJ. Each equipment has different pilot requirements.

So even if the pilot could stay with the same plane, they would run out of time on some routes and still need to be replaced. It appears that most of the crew switches occur either at the Hub or at the first flight of the morning from a non-hub location.

If there are open seats in FC, regardless of stand-bys, a working deadhead pilot will be seated in FC. If all FC seats are booked, or all FC seats are already taken by stand-bys, and the DH pilot is late to the aircraft for whatever reason, the pilot will be seated in MC.

DH FAs will be seated in FC only if there are open seats, and no stand-bys.

There is only ONE TYPE of deadheading pilot. There are TWO TYPES of deadheading FAs.

Deadhead work (DW) means that all jumpseats must be taken by available FAs.
DC-9-30 = 4 jumpseats. 2 FA minimum crew + 2 pilots. An A320 patterned deadhead work crew comes on board (3 FAs + 2 pilots). 2 pilots are given seats according to their contract (what is available). 2 FAs must "sit on jumpseats" for take-off and landing. 1 FA will get a pax seat. Sometimes the DC-9 crew decides that the 2 DW FAs are not needed for service, and will allow them to sit for the flight. If there are no open seats, the DW FAs will ride the jumpseat for the flight. If there are open seas, the DC-9 crew might decide to let them sit in open seats instead of the jumpseat, or make them sit in jumpseas only for take-off and landing.

Giving a pax seat to DW FAs is decided by seniority. Usually the most junior DW FA will work the flight.

Internationally, deadhead pilots must be given a WBC seat.

DW FAs should be wearing their uniforms.

The other type of deadheading for FAs is "Must Deadhead" (DH).
All DH FAs must be given pax seats. Must deadheading has to do with rest in a scheduled duty day. If DH FAs do not get a pax seat, they are not "legal" to work until they have had some sort of rest. This is per our contract, and I think also per FAA regulations. DH FAs do not have to be in uniform.

NW pilots can commute on Alaska for free if they are ANC based. SEA-based FAs can commute on Alaska for free as well. This is only for commuting, not for pleasure travel.

Different airlines have different contract agreements with their employees when it comes to what is worn while deadheading on other carriers. We should be dressed in our uniform or in business attire. KLM crews can only wear business attire. You will often see FAs from charter companies (Champion, Ryan, etc.) deadheading on NW in either uniform or business attire.

I personally have only deadheaded on Pinnacle or Mesaba to poistion my crew somewhere. We wore our uniforms since we were immediately getting on a NW mainline plane to work somewhere after that flight.

Plus, if an FA is "must deadhead" on their last leg of the day, they can opt to "delay deadhead" (if scheduling allows it), and fly to their home city if it's different than their base.

Hope this rambling helps.

Oops, I forgot. I once deadheaded to CDG from AMS. This flight was between layovers (no working flights that day for us), and some of us wore uniforms and some wore street clothes. I think the main reason we, who wore our uniforms did so that day, was because it's easier for us to go through security when we're in uniform. This was after 9/11. The AMS gate agents were upset with our baggage (they have to come in the cabin with us). KLM crews have a small bag that is in the cabin with them, and also have a larger bag that is "checked."
For reasons of how we are "picked-up" in CDG, our bags had to be with us in the cabin. For six of us, we took up six overhead bins on that 737 that day.
If you are all going to comment on the fact that we should also "check" our bags on NW flights, this is not an option. KLM flights are different than ours. Most of their trips are international, and involve just one segment per day, i.e., AMS-NRT. NWA FAs are on upwards of six flights a day, and the logistics of "checking" our bags for every flight would be troublesome.

If there are open seats in FC, regardless of stand-bys, a working deadhead pilot will be seated in FC. If all FC seats are booked, or all FC seats are already taken by stand-bys, and the DH pilot is late to the aircraft for whatever reason, the pilot will be seated in MC.

DH FAs will be seated in FC only if there are open seats, and no stand-bys.

There is only ONE TYPE of deadheading pilot. There are TWO TYPES of deadheading FAs.

Deadhead work (DW) means that all jumpseats must be taken by available FAs.
DC-9-30 = 4 jumpseats. 2 FA minimum crew + 2 pilots. An A320 patterned deadhead work crew comes on board (3 FAs + 2 pilots). 2 pilots are given seats according to their contract (what is available). 2 FAs must "sit on jumpseats" for take-off and landing. 1 FA will get a pax seat. Sometimes the DC-9 crew decides that the 2 DW FAs are not needed for service, and will allow them to sit for the flight. If there are no open seats, the DW FAs will ride the jumpseat for the flight. If there are open seas, the DC-9 crew might decide to let them sit in open seats instead of the jumpseat, or make them sit in jumpseas only for take-off and landing.

Giving a pax seat to DW FAs is decided by seniority. Usually the most junior DW FA will work the flight.

Internationally, deadhead pilots must be given a WBC seat.

DW FAs should be wearing their uniforms.

The other type of deadheading for FAs is "Must Deadhead" (DH).
All DH FAs must be given pax seats. Must deadheading has to do with rest in a scheduled duty day. If DH FAs do not get a pax seat, they are not "legal" to work until they have had some sort of rest. This is per our contract, and I think also per FAA regulations. DH FAs do not have to be in uniform.

NW pilots can commute on Alaska for free if they are ANC based. SEA-based FAs can commute on Alaska for free as well. This is only for commuting, not for pleasure travel.

Different airlines have different contract agreements with their employees when it comes to what is worn while deadheading on other carriers. We should be dressed in our uniform or in business attire. KLM crews can only wear business attire. You will often see FAs from charter companies (Champion, Ryan, etc.) deadheading on NW in either uniform or business attire.

I personally have only deadheaded on Pinnacle or Mesaba to poistion my crew somewhere. We wore our uniforms since we were immediately getting on a NW mainline plane to work somewhere after that flight.

Plus, if an FA is "must deadhead" on their last leg of the day, they can opt to "delay deadhead" (if scheduling allows it), and fly to their home city if it's different than their base.

Hope this rambling helps.

Good inside information ^ ^ ^ ^

Someone is ranting at the CO board that CO FA took BF seats and Elites didn't get upgraded :( :( :(

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=413608