MilesBuzz! - Should airlines ban the usage of award tickets for business travel?

While business travel is not as lucrative as it used to be (part of the reason for a crummy travel experience these days), the airlines still depend on the business traveler for survival. Only the cheapest charter lines (no FF miles!) can survive solely on leisure travel.

To my knowledge, NRSA passes may not be used for non-airline business travel (e.g., you have a part-time job and use your passes for that job's business trips rather than buying tickets). Extending this concept to award tickets has several benefits. Consider:

1) Airlines would be getting cash for these business trips (whether or not you volunteer to use award tickets for biz travel), and more revenue helps all of us indirectly.

2) It would immediately solve the problem of employers confiscating employee's frequent flyer miles. :)

How would the airline verify the purpose of the trip?

Another business traveler elitist argument. Self-serving and selfish beyond measure.

Yeah, I think it would be a great idea to take away 1/3 of the diminishing value of awards and just force people to use them on pleasure trips. I'm sure all those business travelers like piling up miles and awards...so they can climb back on a plane for some "leisure flying".

For that matter, lets bring Congress in on the action to legislate this issue and criminalize the entire affair...such that if an award traveler "dare" bring along a notebook or work to do while "on pleasure", it would violate criminal law and such a criminal should be punished. It goes without saying that by booking the award flight, said would-be flyer signs, in writing, an oath for "purpose of the flight".

Gosh, for that matter, lugging around luggage is a lot of effort, so let's further restrict award travelers to ONLY THOSE WITH CARRY-ON LUGGAGE. And, then, to really focus our mean-spirited intent, let's also restrict award travel to only those who can use the award. NO LAP CHILDREN, you know, because that would not be a revenue-producing seat and it would be the equivalent weight of several pillows and blankets and magazines.

JS, is this a fair extrapolation of the thesis of your post ? I think you stopped well-short of where airlines should take this ff business. Why stop at just business travelers using award passes ?

How would the airline verify the purpose of the trip?

In the case of a voluntary agreement that an employee use award tickets in exchange for cash, that would be impossible to enforce. If you're going to have a policy, though, it has to be broad enough so that the airline doesn't appear to be ganging up on a particular arrangement (see below).

For those employers who confiscate employee's frequent flyer miles, this kind of policy puts an end to it. The employees get to keep their rightfully earned frequent flyer miles, and the airline gets revenue for business trips.

As far as enforcement, if the employer chooses to ignore an airline policy that award tickets are not to be used for business travel, the employee can help the airline enforce it with a simple phone call. Re-deposit the miles per violation of the policy and send the employer a nice reminder letter that award tickets for business travel will be voided.

Another business traveler elitist argument. Self-serving and selfish beyond measure.

Yeah, I think it would be a great idea to take away 1/3 of the diminishing value of awards and just force people to use them on pleasure trips. I'm sure all those business travelers like piling up miles and awards...so they can climb back on a plane for some "leisure flying".

For that matter, lets bring Congress in on the action to legislate this issue and criminalize the entire affair...such that if an award traveler "dare" bring along a notebook or work to do while "on pleasure", it would violate criminal law and such a criminal should be punished. It goes without saying that by booking the award flight, said would-be flyer signs, in writing, an oath for "purpose of the flight".

Gosh, for that matter, lugging around luggage is a lot of effort, so let's further restrict award travelers to ONLY THOSE WITH CARRY-ON LUGGAGE. And, then, to really focus our mean-spirited intent, let's also restrict award travel to only those who can use the award. NO LAP CHILDREN, you know, because that would not be a revenue-producing seat and it would be the equivalent weight of several pillows and blankets and magazines.

JS, is this a fair extrapolation of the thesis of your post ? I think you stopped well-short of where airlines should take this ff business. Why stop at just business travelers using award passes ?

Based on the ranting nature of your post, is it safe to assume that you use award tickets in exchange for cash and therefore would not benefit under this proposal?

JS, just thinking out loud here and trying to take your nugget of an idea to the next level. I think your idea has merit but needs to be extended and more fully-exploited by the airlines. Do you travel w/ carry-on bags only and leave your notebook at home on trips ? If so, you could use your hard-earned awards along with me. We'll probably be the only two ff/award flyers who can meet this strict criteria, so, you know...leaves more revenue seats for the "serious business travelers". After all, the world always can use more "gotchas" in the ff realm. I like your idea, really.

You ever work for AA or UA ? You're thinking like one of "them".

No, I don't work for AA or UA, but I appreciate the compliment. :D

Seriously, though, that level of enforcement is ridiculous. It really only needs to be enforced for employers who confiscate FF miles, and in that case it's easy to enforce.


For the struggling small business who uses award tickets for business travel to keep expenses down, I thought of something:

To my knowledge, airlines do not cater to small businesses. They don't get the volume discounts enjoyed by large corporations. While one small business may not provide a large amount of revenue to an airline, there are a lot of small business out there, some of whom will become large businesses some day, and airlines would be wise to market better to them.

What if an airline decided to do both of the following:

1) create a special kind of frequent flyer account for small businesses, which includes all the features of the programs of today, plus some extra perks, and no prohibition on using award tickets for business travel.

2) for regular accounts, prohibit the usage of award tickets for business travel


Now, with the exception of employees who sell their award tickets to their employers, we have the best of both worlds -- small business owners/employees aren't forced to use an ever-growing pile of miles for a vacation they don't have time to take, and the Wal-Marts of the world who steal their employee's frequent flyer miles can take a hike.

Sarcasm aside, one thing the airlines could do is increase award levels if the itinerary doesn't include a Saturday-night stay. While it wouldn't totally discourage non-leisure awards, it would devalue them somewhat so that flyers would be less likely to use awards for business trips.

As a (primarily) leisure flyer who usually flies on my own dime, it may not make much of a practical difference for me (although, naturally, I'd hate any devaluing of miles at all). But it's one idea, anyway. It would be an irony if, while airlines are eliminating Saturday-night stays for paid tickets, they instituted them for awards.

scirel,
you may or may not know this, but this is one of the onerous restrictions of almost-worthless US Air's Dividend Miles program...SAT night stayover. The only "major" airline affinity program still dogmatically enforcing this horrible restriction.

As god-awful as it is collecting these dividend miles anyway because of the fear US air is going away...adding in the SAT stayover...means yours truly never, but NEVER spends a thin dime on a NationsBank (or whomever owns this affinity relationship credit card) US Air affinity card. In fact, I actively avoid it. NationsBank (now whomever) picked a real DOG of a program to align with. Oh well. Their loss.

POINT: Everything these airlines are doing these days to diminish and marginalize their affinity program...is killing the goose that laid the golden egg (ie their affinity program where they sell this increasingly-worthless paper). I, LITERALLY, just, not three hours ago, had a discussion w/ a 2-physician family about the poor value any longer in collecting Citibank/AA miles...and am almost certain I convinced them to either focus on accumulating "generic" points such as USAA Eagle Points or Capital One's points, OR, better yet, abandon Visa and M/C altogether and focus solely on the starwood/AMEX program, now the true cadillac of all affinity programs for flexibility, "bang for the buck", and so forth. So - am guessing AA and indirectly Citibank, will lose as much as $100K/annually from that changed pattern.

I went from being a multi-million/yr charger w/ Citibank/AA...to less than $10,000 a year...and that's only accidental overflow as a last resort.

These days./..anyone forcusing on an exclusive AIRLINE-ONLY program is really boxing themselves in and giving up options and flexibility and they will find out the hard way when they attempt to redeem said airline-exclusive miles...and the majors are taking FULL ADVANTAGE of this bad practice.

This surreal proposal put forth by JS just exacerbates the overall problem of growing restrictions, less award availability, purposeful evasion and deceipt by the airlines between "TRUE AVAILABILITY" and "PERCEIVED AVAILABILITY", etc. This particular physician I spoke with commented SPECIFICALLY how they had tried to book a certain trip on AAdvantage last summer...and never was successful. We had a short discussion about milesaaver and I think so much for her collecting AAdvantage miles going forward.

So - I would not be surprised to see a major take up the idea. :)

How about Southwest---they have lots of business type passengers and they have one of the best FF mileage programs in the industry.

Well, restricting FF mileage trips to leisure flights would certainly bring the Internal Revenue Service into this, as mileage for the most part is earned on business travel and if not used for this purpose becomes a taxable benefit to the employee.

As someone who runs a small business and used my miles for many short notice and ultra-long haul business trips, I would object to being restricted in my use of miles, both as the owner of the business that can save some real money, and as the account owner who resents anyone telling me what I can do with these miles [other than the general provisions imposed by the airlines themselves].

scirel,
you may or may not know this, but this is one of the onerous restrictions of almost-worthless US Air's Dividend Miles program...SAT night stayover. The only "major" airline affinity program still dogmatically enforcing this horrible restriction.

As god-awful as it is collecting these dividend miles anyway because of the fear US air is going away...adding in the SAT stayover...means yours truly never, but NEVER spends a thin dime on a NationsBank (or whomever owns this affinity relationship credit card) US Air affinity card. In fact, I actively avoid it. NationsBank (now whomever) picked a real DOG of a program to align with. Oh well. Their loss.

POINT: Everything these airlines are doing these days to diminish and marginalize their affinity program...is killing the goose that laid the golden egg (ie their affinity program where they sell this increasingly-worthless paper). I, LITERALLY, just, not three hours ago, had a discussion w/ a 2-physician family about the poor value any longer in collecting Citibank/AA miles...and am almost certain I convinced them to either focus on accumulating "generic" points such as USAA Eagle Points or Capital One's points, OR, better yet, abandon Visa and M/C altogether and focus solely on the starwood/AMEX program, now the true cadillac of all affinity programs for flexibility, "bang for the buck", and so forth. So - am guessing AA and indirectly Citibank, will lose as much as $100K/annually from that changed pattern.

I went from being a multi-million/yr charger w/ Citibank/AA...to less than $10,000 a year...and that's only accidental overflow as a last resort.

These days./..anyone forcusing on an exclusive AIRLINE-ONLY program is really boxing themselves in and giving up options and flexibility and they will find out the hard way when they attempt to redeem said airline-exclusive miles...and the majors are taking FULL ADVANTAGE of this bad practice.

This surreal proposal put forth by JS just exacerbates the overall problem of growing restrictions, less award availability, purposeful evasion and deceipt by the airlines between "TRUE AVAILABILITY" and "PERCEIVED AVAILABILITY", etc. This particular physician I spoke with commented SPECIFICALLY how they had tried to book a certain trip on AAdvantage last summer...and never was successful. We had a short discussion about milesaaver and I think so much for her collecting AAdvantage miles going forward.

So - I would not be surprised to see a major take up the idea. :)

:confused:

You charge several million dollars a year on a credit card?

You don't need to worry about award seat availability. You can pay double miles and fly anywhere you want, at any time you want, except on sold out flights.

Well, restricting FF mileage trips to leisure flights would certainly bring the Internal Revenue Service into this, as mileage for the most part is earned on business travel and if not used for this purpose becomes a taxable benefit to the employee.

It's just as (theoretically) taxable if you use an award ticket for business travel. If you spend $5,000 on deductible business air travel, and then issue an award ticket for a business trip that would have otherwise cost you $500, you should (again, theoretically!) only deduct $4,500 of business travel expense.

For an employee, a free ticket to go on vacation can be considered a fringe benefit. A business cannot give itself fringe benefits, so the only reason you don't pay taxes on the "$500" award ticket is the complexities of carrying out such a thing.

As someone who runs a small business and used my miles for many short notice and ultra-long haul business trips, I would object to being restricted in my use of miles, both as the owner of the business that can save some real money, and as the account owner who resents anyone telling me what I can do with these miles [other than the general provisions imposed by the airlines themselves].

That's why I suggested the idea of a FF account aimed at small businesses where a rule against using award tickets for business travel would not exist.

Can we rename this thread, "Gee, I'm bored on Tuesday and wanted to post something controversial on FT to keep me awake"?

Like we need any more benefits taken away.

Sarcasm aside, one thing the airlines could do is increase award levels if the itinerary doesn't include a Saturday-night stay. While it wouldn't totally discourage non-leisure awards, it would devalue them somewhat so that flyers would be less likely to use awards for business trips.

As a (primarily) leisure flyer who usually flies on my own dime, it may not make much of a practical difference for me (although, naturally, I'd hate any devaluing of miles at all). But it's one idea, anyway. It would be an irony if, while airlines are eliminating Saturday-night stays for paid tickets, they instituted them for awards.

This is the largest reason I credit my US flights to UA. I don't even have a US Dividend Miles number.

Since my award tickets are for vacations (or a funeral, once), more often than not, I have a Saturday night stay in my award ticket anyway, but there have been some exceptions.

JS, respectfully, please don't presume that I *don't mind* paying double points for an award because I have a higher rate of accumulation. I spend an inordinate amount of time, wasteful many would say, chasing these elusive points, so it particularly chaffes me when an airline plays games w/ availability so they can shake me down, or people I have referred into these programs in good faith, for a double award. I am personally embarrassed that I have referred/educated a lot of my personal business friends into accumulating AAdvantage miles; now I have to "re-train" them because of the shambles AAdvantage, Nonepass, and others are in.

Or should I respond that you should not mind nor complain about being gouged the last-minute extorion business rates "because you fly on business" ?

Similar analogy, same poor logic.

Correct logic - NO ONE likes to get ripped off. And airline affinity programs, except for LUV which I agree is still a pure form of "true reward" with few strings and "gotchas" attached...have become one incredible cesspool of scams and half-truths. IMO of course.

I think my local deli should begin charging $99 per sandwich when it is purchased by someone who is at work.

They should charge $4.99 for people who aren't at work - just there on leisure.

If the deli then loses money, it's definitely the fault of the working people for not eating there more often.

JS, respectfully, please don't presume that I *don't mind* paying double points for an award because I have a higher rate of accumulation. I spend an inordinate amount of time, wasteful many would say, chasing these elusive points, so it particularly chaffs me when an airline plays games w/ availability so they can shake me, or people I have referred into these programs, down for a double award.

Or should I respond that you should not mind nor complain about being gouged the last-minute extorion business rates "because you're a business" ?

Similar analogy, same poor logic.

Correct logic - NO ONE likes to get ripped off. And airline affinity programs, except for LUV which I agree is still a pure form of "true reward" with few strings and "gotchas" attached...have been come one incredible cesspool of scams and half-truths. IMO of course.

I asked why you don't pay double points not because you earn more miles than the average person, but because you earn more miles than you could possibly use, even with double points.

We are talking about five million miles a year, correct? You would need a large circle of friends who like to travel constantly in order to use five million miles a year at regular rates. Even if you paid double every time, that is still an inordinately large number of miles to use.

This idea is a non-starter. Only in the halls of the US Congress could you find any support at all for an idea that ensures a few people get what is "rightfully theirs" (even though I don't remember the constitution mentioning FF miles as a specific right) by imposing a whole new invasive enforcement routine on an entire industry.

This idea is a non-starter. Only in the halls of the US Congress could you find any support at all for an idea that ensures a few people get what is "rightfully theirs" (even though I don't remember the constitution mentioning FF miles as a specific right) by imposing a whole new invasive enforcement routine on an entire industry.

The entire frequent flyer program revolves around the assumption that award tickets are used to fill seats that would otherwise go empty.

When someone uses an award ticket for a business trip (presumably one that would be made even if a ticket had to be purchased), the airline loses revenue. Airlines have been making cost cuts to the bone, and their revenues are still not enough to meet expenses.

This idea is one way to push revenues up without collusion/raising fares, charging $250 upgrade fees, and charging $5 or $10 to buy a ticket directly from the airline outside of their web site.

Why does everyone keep assuming that enforcement of such a rule would be invasive? All you have to do is publish the policy, and that puts an end to employers confiscating their employees' frequent flier miles! Airlines don't have to do anything.

Or shall we continue to live with idiot employers like IBM in the past, that university in Ohio, Wal-Mart, etc., who confiscate their employee's frequent flyer miles, essentially stealing revenue from the airlines? How is that any better?

The best way airlines could limit the use of award travel used for business is to impose a Saturday night stay on all awards--and some airlines are doing this. Let's not give the rest of the industry more ideas.

I think ski areas should fine you if you try to use the SINGLES LINE if they find out you are married.

Let's be so restrictive that nothing is doable unless lots of paperwork is done first.

Miles should be more easily redeemable as they are in Starwood and on Southwest.

:)MM

The outstanding miles are a potential liability for the airlines. They would like to see as many miles cashed for as little cost as possible, period. I do not believe that they should be distinguishing between business or leisure travel.

After all, some of us may take leisure travel more seriously than business travel.

Airlines have been making cost cuts to the bone, and their revenues are still not enough to meet expenses.


Actually, that's not entirely true. Poorly run airlines have seen their revenues not meet expenses.

Well-run airlines continue to make money, even through the terrorist attacks, a mild economic down cycle, and changing habits of business travelers.

For those employers who confiscate employee's frequent flyer miles, this kind of policy puts an end to it. The employees get to keep their rightfully earned frequent flyer miles, and the airline gets revenue for business trips.


The great majority of employers do not confiscate miles. This is a unneeded solution for an insignificant problem. If you are one of the few people whose employer tries to snarf your miles and you are unhappy with the situation, get a new job.

In my case all of my miles go to personal reward travel for my wife and myself, but I don't give a rat's *** how other people use their miles and you shouldn't either!

The best way airlines could limit the use of award travel used for business is to impose a Saturday night stay on all awards--and some airlines are doing this. Let's not give the rest of the industry more ideas.

The airlines have practically given up requiring a Saturday night stay for paid tickets. Why would this be a useful tactic for award tickets?

It is quite possible to take a vacation from Sunday through Saturday, and it is possible for a business trip to be two weeks long with no return to home on the weekend.

. . . . . .

I think ski areas should fine you if you try to use the SINGLES LINE if they find out you are married.

Let's be so restrictive that nothing is doable unless lots of paperwork is done first.

Miles should be more easily redeemable as they are in Starwood and on Southwest.

:)MM

Why does everyone keep blowing things out of proportion? Filling out lots of paperwork, seeing if you have a laptop on the plane, etc., those are stupid replies.

. . . . .

The outstanding miles are a potential liability for the airlines. They would like to see as many miles cashed for as little cost as possible, period. I do not believe that they should be distinguishing between business or leisure travel.

After all, some of us may take leisure travel more seriously than business travel.

The outstanding miles are already a liability. It is used to recognize the small expense of carrying one additional passenger at the time the miles are issued rather than at the time transportation is provided. It is a non-issue.

. . . . .

Actually, that's not entirely true. Poorly run airlines have seen their revenues not meet expenses.

Well-run airlines continue to make money, even through the terrorist attacks, a mild economic down cycle, and changing habits of business travelers.

While I don’t doubt that the major airlines can do better, I would stop short of calling all of them “poorly run”. Please don’t say “Well, Southwest still makes money”, because it is simply not possible for UA, AA, DL, NW, CO and US to serve nothing but lower 48 all-coach large city pairs. All six of them would go out of business.

. . . . .

The great majority of employers do not confiscate miles. This is a unneeded solution for an insignificant problem. If you are one of the few people whose employer tries to snarf your miles and you are unhappy with the situation, get a new job.

In my case all of my miles go to personal reward travel for my wife and myself, but I don't give a rat's *** how other people use their miles and you shouldn't either!

My employer does not confiscate my miles. In fact, our travel policy is that you will not be reimbursed if you use an award ticket for a business trip.

Of course this proposal would not affect most people, but that is true of so many other things. Most people don’t fly back-to-back, and most people don’t sell award tickets on ebay, but that doesn’t stop the airlines from prohibiting it. Back-to-back ticketing and selling award tickets cost airlines revenue, and all of us end up paying for it one way or another.

While I don’t doubt that the major airlines can do better, I would stop short of calling all of them “poorly run”. Please don’t say “Well, Southwest still makes money”, because it is simply not possible for UA, AA, DL, NW, CO and US to serve nothing but lower 48 all-coach large city pairs. All six of them would go out of business.


Um, actually, I won't stop short of calling all six of them poorly run.

Scoreboard.

All six of them are poorly run. Very poorly run in most cases.

I'm not suggesting that those six airlines morph to the Southwest model. Some experts suggest that they should go an entirely different direction - focusing more on international travel.

Yeah, they should probably take a few pages from the WN playbook - namely, treating their customers with more respect, and following some of WN's operational best practices - but no, I am definitely not suggesting that they try and take on WN head-to-head in all cases. They'd all go out of business very quickly because, well, they are poorly run...

And it's not just Southwest that is making money.

My employer does not confiscate my miles. In fact, our travel policy is that you will not be reimbursed if you use an award ticket for a business trip.


I could tell from every reply you made that you are an employee and not an employer. I am glad you stated so.

So your employer does not "confiscate" your miles but you think it costs you personally that other companies do. I know in the past that the federal govt would not allow you to earn miles on paid govt travel. I think they have changed this policy though.

Basically I hear you saying that the airlines are the only company that should be allowed to make money if I as a business owner pays for my employees travel that the employee should get the benefit of those miles instead of myself. I think that is hogwash. If my employees are more concerned with poorly run (yes all the big 6 are poorly run, there is no argument in that) company making money than the one that is paying their bills than they are more than welcome to find other employement. Your argument is very shallow and self centered. No, wal mart and IBM probably are not suffering companies, but employees should be more concerned with the bottom line of their employer than of the airlines.

The airlines have practically given up requiring a Saturday night stay for paid tickets. Why would this be a useful tactic for award tickets?


Northwest does require a Sat night stay on standard awards as apparently does US. I would think CO does, but it is basically a mute point with them since you can rarely ever get the standard award with them anyhow.

It is a useful tactic to keep businesses from as you say confiscating award miles.

I think it would currently take some compliance from the employee to allow the employer to confiscate miles since the terms and conditions of ALL programs (airline, hotel, etc) allow only the person that actually flies/rents/etc to earn miles/points in the account of their name. Businesses can not have frequent flyer/stayer accounts. Therefore, the individual would have to authorize the company to use their miles.

There are currently programs for small business, ie. Biz Perks with NWA and a similar program with CO where the Business earns POINTS based on the purchase price for tickets bought for the employees that have their FF account registered with that employers biz account. After so many points the employer can then convert the points to free tickets, lounge access, upgrades, etc. But the employee keeps there miles as per program rules.

I could tell from every reply you made that you are an employee and not an employer. I am glad you stated so.

So your employer does not "confiscate" your miles but you think it costs you personally that other companies do. I know in the past that the federal govt would not allow you to earn miles on paid govt travel. I think they have changed this policy though.

Basically I hear you saying that the airlines are the only company that should be allowed to make money if I as a business owner pays for my employees travel that the employee should get the benefit of those miles instead of myself. I think that is hogwash. If my employees are more concerned with poorly run (yes all the big 6 are poorly run, there is no argument in that) company making money than the one that is paying their bills than they are more than welcome to find other employement. Your argument is very shallow and self centered. No, wal mart and IBM probably are not suffering companies, but employees should be more concerned with the bottom line of their employer than of the airlines.

No, it doesn't cost me personally. I'm merely suggesting a fair policy that would keep selfish employers like you from stealing their employee's frequent flyer miles.

No, it doesn't cost me personally. I'm merely suggesting a fair policy that would keep selfish employers like you from stealing their employee's frequent flyer miles.

Oh, come on. Stealing miles? :confused: The employer paid for them in the first place. My personal take is that it's a crappy policy unless the employees are being paid for their travel time, but it's definitely not stealing. It's just a different policy than that which is used by most (where travel time is not billable but the employee keeps the miles).

If the employee doesn't like it...well, we've already covered this. It's a free country.

Oh, come on. Stealing miles? :confused: The employer paid for them in the first place. My personal take is that it's a crappy policy unless the employees are being paid for their travel time, but it's definitely not stealing. It's just a different policy than that which is used by most (where travel time is not billable but the employee keeps the miles).

If the employee doesn't like it...well, we've already covered this. It's a free country.

When you take something that belongs to someone else, it is called stealing.

From day one, frequent flyer miles have accrued to the passenger, and to the passenger ONLY. You could spend $1 million buying airline tickets for your friends, family and neighbors, but if you don't board the plane yourself, you will not earn one solitary mile (excluding miles from the credit card purchases, which an employer could earn anyway, so that is not relevant).

Otherwise, they may as well be called "frequent buyer miles", and that opens a whole can of worms with the IRS. For example, if you buy a $2,000 desk for your office and then recieve a $100 rebate check in the mail two weeks later, your tax deduction is $1,900, not $2,000.

No, it doesn't cost me personally. I'm merely suggesting a fair policy that would keep selfish employers like you from stealing their employee's frequent flyer miles.

First of all, I explained in my previous post that rules already exist to keep employers from using employees FF miles and never did I state that I force my employees to allow the company to use their miles for Company business. I think your comment above would be considered flaming.

Since you either did not read my post, or failed to understand it, I will post the terms from NW Worldperks program guide. Emphasis added is mine.

http://www.nwa.com/freqfly/memrules/memguide.pdf

ENROLLMENT
12. The WorldPerks program is open to any individual with a mailing address in
North America or in any country that has not prohibited participation in frequent
flyer programs, with the exception of countries in Europe, Africa, the Middle East
and the Indian Subcontinent. If you change your mailing address to Europe,
Africa, the Middle East or the Indian Subcontinent, you can no longer retain
your WorldPerks membership. Instead, your account should be transferred to
KLM’s Flying Dutchman Program. Please contact the WorldPerks Service
Center for information on how to convert your WorldPerks miles into
Flying Dutchman points.
13. Corporations or other legal entities cannot be enrolled as members.
14. Only one person may be enrolled per WorldPerks account. An individual may
have only one account and that must be in his/her real (legal) name. Membership
will be listed under the participant’s full name including title (Mr., Ms., etc.) and
middle initial. To receive flight credit, the name on the ticket must match the
name on the member’s account exactly.

15. Membership is non-transferable.

*****

21. You must actually travel to earn WorldPerks flight mileage. Miles will not be
awarded on unused, forfeited, fraudulent or refunded tickets, or on additional
tickets purchased on the same flight under the same name for any reason. Only
the person named on the WorldPerks account and who actually flies can earn
WorldPerks mileage, even if they purchase tickets for other people. Miles will not
be awarded when a person checks in and improperly identifies under the samename as the member. Any fraudulent activity in connection with the program
will entitle Northwest, in its sole discretion, to terminate an individual
membership and/or Elite member status, void all mileage credit and cancel
previously issued tickets, awards and certificates. An individual member may earn
miles only once and in one frequent flyer program for the entire itinerary. Miles
will not be awarded for extra seats purchased by such member for any reason.

So as you see, there are already rules in place to keep employers from using ohters miles. And as I stated before IF an employer is using the employees miles, the employee must have agreed to it.

PLEASE STATE ONE LEGITAMITE PROVEN EXAMPLE OF AN EMPLOYER ACTUALLY USING AN EMPLOYEES MILES WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT!

Posting a link with your proof would be nice. Otherwise this conversation has no merit since it is on the books with Worldperks and I am certain there is similar wording in every other program terms and conditions.

I actually remember someone at a previous employer saying that the company was generous to allow the employees to keep their own miles instead of the company keeping them. I thought all along that they had no choice in the matter.

In any case, I can understand airlines wanting to stop the selling of FF awards, but stopping a business traveller using his own miles for his own business trip is a bit difficult to enforce and is a bit out of the question for the airline to try to enforce it. A company does not own an employee's FF account and therefore cannot control its use. If a company wants to pay an employee to use his own miles for a trip, then I think that is something the airline should not worry about trying to stop. I never accrued enough business trip miles to want to burn them like that, I was content in keeping them so that my wife and I could travel for free.

For example, if you buy a $2,000 desk for your office and then recieve a $100 rebate check in the mail two weeks later, your tax deduction is $1,900, not $2,000.

Let's say my employer authorized me to buy the new desk and charge it in as an expense. I buy the $2,000 desk and expense it as $2,000, even though I know I have a kickback coming in a couple of weeks. I get my $100 check and pocket it. The check is in my name, not the employer's. We'll even say the desk-maker has a silly little rule that only individual names can be issued rebate checks.

Let's say most employers would say "Great, Mr. Pinniped! Enjoy your $100 as a fringe benefit for working here and the effort it took you to buy that desk."

But let's say 1 employer out there says "Hmmm...employee charged in $2000 for a $1900 desk. I want the $100 back." Would that employer be "stealing" if he demanded the money back?

First of all, I explained in my previous post that rules already exist to keep employers from using employees FF miles and never did I state that I force my employees to allow the company to use their miles for Company business. I think your comment above would be considered flaming.

I apologize if my post came across as too harsh, but when you wrote "if my employees are more concerned with poorly run (yes all the big 6 are poorly run, there is no argument in that) company making money than the one that is paying their bills than they are more than welcome to find other employement. ...", it came across as condescending, implying that it is the employer that is paying the employee's bills. The fact of the matter is that it is the employee's labor and skills that pay the employee's bills. I don't want to sound like a union organizer (I hate unions actually), but the idea that food on the table is courtesy of ABC Business, and not hard work, is not one I agree with.

Regarding the NWA rules:

...So as you see, there are already rules in place to keep employers from using ohters miles. And as I stated before IF an employer is using the employees miles, the employee must have agreed to it.

PLEASE STATE ONE LEGITAMITE PROVEN EXAMPLE OF AN EMPLOYER ACTUALLY USING AN EMPLOYEES MILES WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT!

Posting a link with your proof would be nice. Otherwise this conversation has no merit since it is on the books with Worldperks and I am certain there is similar wording in every other program terms and conditions.

There were several examples given in the topic "Employers Keep Miles" where the employee is required to use his own miles, or else be fired. The fact that the employee knows about it (as opposed to issuing an award ticket without consent) does not change the situation.

Imagine a would-be robber at an ATM telling the victim to enter the code, withdraw cash, and hand it over. Does that mean there was no robbery because the bank customer agreed to the transaction by entering the PIN? Of course not.

Let's say my employer authorized me to buy the new desk and charge it in as an expense. I buy the $2,000 desk and expense it as $2,000, even though I know I have a kickback coming in a couple of weeks. I get my $100 check and pocket it. The check is in my name, not the employer's. We'll even say the desk-maker has a silly little rule that only individual names can be issued rebate checks.

Let's say most employers would say "Great, Mr. Pinniped! Enjoy your $100 as a fringe benefit for working here and the effort it took you to buy that desk."

But let's say 1 employer out there says "Hmmm...employee charged in $2000 for a $1900 desk. I want the $100 back." Would that employer be "stealing" if he demanded the money back?

No. It's cash back for a cash transaction.

Frequent flyer miles, as defined by their creator, the airlines, have no cash value and may not be bartered or sold (Southwest notwithstanding). It would be like getting the use of a desk at the showroom for one day as a reward for your business.

That is what frequent flyer miles really are -- a reward for your repeat business being the use of their equipment for a short period of time without having to pay a fare.

[QUOTE=JS]
There were several examples given in the topic "Employers Keep Miles" where the employee is required to use his own miles, or else be fired. The fact that the employee knows about it (as opposed to issuing an award ticket without consent) does not change the situation.
QUOTE]

There were indeed several examples given of companies that USED to do it, but have since stopped. Even some that had thought about it or had been rumored to think about it, but did not institute it due to bookkeeping or other costs making it prohibitive.

I saw no ongoing present examples of this in that thread.

What I am looking for is a first hand example of someone saying I work for CO XYZ and the CO policy is that if I fly on business I must allow the use of those miles for CO trips. Not looking for someone to say "I have heard that a beer company in St. Louis does it and the airlines know about it."

As also stated in that thread some corporate discounts state that the corporation earns the miles for the fares bought under that discount code. I have no knowledge of agreements like that, but they could exist and if in effect they do exist than the employee has no claim to those miles since the fare paid is not eligible for individual mileage accrual.

In that thread, there was a reference to some university in Ohio that currently has such a policy. Included in the post was the text of the policy.

Because search is down and I'm on a dial-up connection, this is coming from memory, but I recall reading that the no-miles corporate discount was set up such that no FF miles would accrue at all -- basically a Priceline type of fare.

Frequent flyer miles, as defined by their creator, the airlines, have no cash value and may not be bartered or sold (Southwest notwithstanding).

...They may not be allowed to be sold or bartered according to the airline rules, but by no law of any state I know of would this really be true as far as I can tell...

i can sell whatever I want, as long as ya can't smoke it, drink it or shoot it! (then it gets dicey)

And so because I can, I certainly DO sell off awards whenever possible--for $$$ to me in my pocket! Example: a friend who was going to spend $600 on a RT ticket can let me book it for him using an award that cost me very little to obtain the miles for, and I might ask him to give me, say, $350-400 for it. Everyone wins, right? yup! It's not like a business but I will do it, that's for sure!

And I do whatever I can to reap whatever I can from the very airlines who actually do this to me every day anyway. I may come across as cras or wrong, or even immoral to some in this area, but I do it only with airlines, and I do it with them because their ways ARE pretty bad too, so there. (yes, when it comes to most airlines, I think 2 wrongs may make a right for me!).

Why do I say this? Well, take a look at the whittling that has been going on fast and furiously with every routing there is out there: award seats are just not available like they should be! Business travel has become harder to redeem for and upgrade into, and it just doesn't seem fair.

We need to work faster and harder to get what we had planned for to begin with!

You said:
...That is what frequent flyer miles really are -- a reward for your repeat business being the use of their equipment for a short period of time without having to pay a fare. ...and if this is true, then darn it, I want to be able to have that award readily available to me when I want to cash in, because I have particiapted in every promo, gotten every credit card, done every survey, flown a bunch of flights, rented the cars, signed on with partners, received emails and marketing junk, and bought stuff on line on their web portals! YES, I spent time and money on THEM and THEIR initiatives and I even told my friends to join up as well, so why is it that when it finally comes time for me to actually ask for my little reward, I get all this flack from CSRs or booking engines? darn it, man, I should be able to redeem!

Seems to me, we are in a tailspin of reward saturation and they are looking for any way out they can--and will scam us every which way they can in order to get this done! The airlines say they have no money and yet they promote these things so we sign on and provide them more validity and value as a whole by doing so! We validate them and keep them afloat, but they strip away the very awards and live on a bare bones existence at our continued expense! That bare bones existence hinbders service big time!

There's an article from Tuesday, March 8th's Wall Street Journal entitled, "Tight Airline Staffing leaves Little Room For Error" that went on about how the airlines have cut back on employees, and this is why bags get lost.

They have cut out the very people who help them run the freakin place! Stupid! (sounds like how home Depot has become! Ever try getting help in there lately?)

So what's that stupid new rip off booking fee you have to pay when calling CS do anyway? I thought I was told by the airlines that it was to improve things such as service at the airlines! instead, I am forced to call when trying to book online and coming up short of any decent and normal results, because the airline web sites just plain suck. So yeah, I have to call, wait on hold for 45 minutes because our options have changed and we are experiencing higher than normal call volumes at this time, blah blah, and then I have to book on the phone, pay a silly fee, get taken for more money, and then have my bags mishandled too? Fahgetaboutit!

I'll be damned if they try to take away my right to book business travel or any travel if and where an award is available! And these should be across the board--in many more capacities than they have been!


Why even have the discussion? Fly miles or marketing miles... I PAY, and so do you all.

regadring my theroy on how airlines could actually increase award availability AND make money:

HIRE PEOPLE!

So how to make that happen? how to make these airlines give back the awrad seating and still make some money to survive? Well, it starts with increasing service, not decreasing it! Gee, why not try that--why not try HIRING good people instead of hiding behind a smoke screen of "oh poor us, bankrupt giant airlines" who set up poorly automated sites and fire all the decent people now looking for jobs and freaking out because they cannot pay he rent. bitterness and unemployment begets bitterness and unemployment! i know this because I am a recruiter! HIRE PEOPLE, you corporate fools! Start the engines from within!!! Duh! THAT is the solution for actually MAKING money!


;)MM

...They may not be allowed to be sold or bartered according to the airline rules, but by no law of any state I know of would this really be true as far as I can tell...

i can sell whatever I want, as long as ya can't smoke it, drink it or shoot it! (then it gets dicey)

And so because I can, I certainly DO sell off awards whenever possible--for $$$ to me in my pocket! Example: a friend who was going to spend $600 on a RT ticket can let me book it for him using an award that cost me very little to obtain the miles for, and I might ask him to give me, say, $350-400 for it. Everyone wins, right? yup! It's not like a business but I will do it, that's for sure!

Everyone but the airline wins.

And I do whatever I can to reap whatever I can from the very airlines who actually do this to me every day anyway. I may come across as cras or wrong, or even immoral to some in this area, but I do it only with airlines, and I do it with them because their ways ARE pretty bad too, so there. (yes, when it comes to most airlines, I think 2 wrongs may make a right for me!).

Rationalization... selling awards is against program rules, and you know it. Don't try to flim-flam me.

Why do I say this? Well, take a look at the whittling that has been going on fast and furiously with every routing there is out there: award seats are just not available like they should be! Business travel has become harder to redeem for and upgrade into, and it just doesn't seem fair.

We need to work faster and harder to get what we had planned for to begin with!

You said: ...and if this is true, then darn it, I want to be able to have that award readily available to me when I want to cash in, because I have particiapted in every promo, gotten every credit card, done every survey, flown a bunch of flights, rented the cars, signed on with partners, received emails and marketing junk, and bought stuff on line on their web portals! YES, I spent time and money on THEM and THEIR initiatives and I even told my friends to join up as well, so why is it that when it finally comes time for me to actually ask for my little reward, I get all this flack from CSRs or booking engines? darn it, man, I should be able to redeem!

Seems to me, we are in a tailspin of reward saturation and they are looking for any way out they can--and will scam us every which way they can in order to get this done! The airlines say they have no money and yet they promote these things so we sign on and provide them more validity and value as a whole by doing so! We validate them and keep them afloat, but they strip away the very awards and live on a bare bones existence at our continued expense! That bare bones existence hinbders service big time!

There's an article from Tuesday, March 8th's Wall Street Journal entitled, "Tight Airline Staffing leaves Little Room For Error" that went on about how the airlines have cut back on employees, and this is why bags get lost.

They have cut out the very people who help them run the freakin place! Stupid! (sounds like how home Depot has become! Ever try getting help in there lately?)

So what's that stupid new rip off booking fee you have to pay when calling CS do anyway? I thought I was told by the airlines that it was to improve things such as service at the airlines! instead, I am forced to call when trying to book online and coming up short of any decent and normal results, because the airline web sites just plain suck. So yeah, I have to call, wait on hold for 45 minutes because our options have changed and we are experiencing higher than normal call volumes at this time, blah blah, and then I have to book on the phone, pay a silly fee, get taken for more money, and then have my bags mishandled too? Fahgetaboutit!

I'll be damned if they try to take away my right to book business travel or any travel if and where an award is available! And these should be across the board--in many more capacities than they have been!


Why even have the discussion? Fly miles or marketing miles... I PAY, and so do you all.

regadring my theroy on how airlines could actually increase award availability AND make money:

HIRE PEOPLE!

So how to make that happen? how to make these airlines give back the awrad seating and still make some money to survive? Well, it starts with increasing service, not decreasing it! Gee, why not try that--why not try HIRING good people instead of hiding behind a smoke screen of "oh poor us, bankrupt giant airlines" who set up poorly automated sites and fire all the decent people now looking for jobs and freaking out because they cannot pay he rent. bitterness and unemployment begets bitterness and unemployment! i know this because I am a recruiter! HIRE PEOPLE, you corporate fools! Start the engines from within!!! Duh! THAT is the solution for actually MAKING money!


;)MM

Now that is a good rant.

Everyone but the airline wins.



Rationalization... selling awards is against program rules, and you know it. Don't try to flim-flam me.



Now that is a good rant.

yeah it is...
I am indeed a ranter extraordinare... ;)

I have no arguements with you or your posts...

I also do know award selling is against program rules, and that's partly why I do it. (but we both know iit's not because of little old me that they HAVE the rule, now is it...)

Not meaning to rationalize, just merely clarifying that I am proud to blatantly break their rules. And of course, unless someone tattle-tales on me after reading this, the only people who know I do this are those reading this thread and the friends who I get the awards for. There is never any real PROOF that one gave me anything for an award I gave to them. Example: If I sent my own mother to see family on my miles, and she thanked me with a kiss and a smile, did I just barter? Who cares. Who can say what is one thing vs. another. And even if I come in here telling you what I intend to do or what I would do, does that mean I actually did it? Prove it!

If the airline decides to take action based on assumptions, then whose to say they too dont make mistakes and actually take away someone's miles who never did a bad thing in their life, but just looks like they might have on some silly computer system somewhere! (over zealous would-be mile cops may hopefully be scratching their heads on this one...)

I believe the discussion has come up before and the rules were put in place to prevent open selling, such as people doing it on Ebay, etc. Even before Ebay existed, it makes sense such a rule would be in place from an airline's perspective, so that it can attempt to contain wide-spread abuse that say, some small travel ageny or other enttity may try to take part in using a large cache of saved miles. But I do not do this. I give and "sell at a discount" to my own peeps, and thus, it IS just like reserving an award for one's own mother! Thus, in the eyes of the airline, I cannot be doing much of anything known to be wrong, unless one of us tells them I do. I am merely redeeming, because when I cannot fly, someone else is going on my miles. It's just like giving your lift ticket to someone else when you are done skiing (which is what keychain rings are good for if you think about it).

Call it what you will, but this kind of thing CAN'T be why there are fewer and fewer awards available! there are other reasons and yet they use that as the main one to put the onus back on all of us. Sure, you may think it is related but it is not. It's a smoke screen and I merely respond to it in my own way. I hope everyone else does, and also will admit to doing so.

-flim flam on the bim bam. ;)MM

I don't doubt for a minute that the rule against selling awards was targeted at broker-assisted sales. Selling awards to friends is not possible to police, and the airlines know that. Ebay didn't exist until recently, but ebay just makes it that much easier to find the people selling.

The rule has to be against both sale and barter; otherwise people will barter and offer to exchange 25,000 miles for a white envelope (and the envelope contains $300 :rolleyes: ), or exchange 25,000 miles for a refundable ticket worth $300, you get the picture.

Redeeming a ticket for your mother is not against the rules. Selling tickets to your friends is against the rules (as well as selling a ticket to your mother :) ). Just because it's unenforceable doesn't mean it's not wrong. Laws should be enforceable, but we are talking about airlines here, where the concept of fair application, stable government regulations, and things like that don't apply.

I never said that I wanted airlines to prohibit the issuance of award tickets for business travel because it's too difficult to redeem awards. I can't imagine why redemption would be materially different. OK, there might be a few business travelers who don't ever have any vacation time, don't plan to ever retire, have no family or friends, and won't sell awards, who would not be redeeming an award under this rule, but that is immaterial.

What I am saying is that if you have this situation today:

1) Business traveler X uses award ticket for business trip by force or pockets $300 from employer
2) Family member buys airline ticket to visit X and pays $200

and you change that to:

1) Business traveler X buys ticket for business trip and pays $300
2) Family member uses award ticket to visit X

The airline collects $100 in additional revenue.


edited to add -- Southwest's program is basically the opposite, rewarding you with a ticket that is worth more as a typical business trip than a vacation. While that sounds really nice, you can't accumulate credits over the course of more than one year, and I would really hate to see the other airlines follow suit. I have 400,000 Delta miles earned since last year that I can't possibly use this year unless I take a two month sabbatical. :)

For those employers who confiscate employee's frequent flyer miles, this kind of policy puts an end to it. The employees get to keep their rightfully earned frequent flyer miles, and the airline gets revenue for business trips.

Why do you assume that the employees have "rightfully" earned the FF miles? FF miles are considered rebates (which is why they are not taxable under IRS guidelines). If anything, the rebate (i.e., FF miles) "rightfully" belongs to the person/entity that paid for the ticket in the first place (i.e., the employer).

Consider this: What if the telephone company offered "frequent caller" points that could be exchanged for free phone calls or other benefits? Should the employee making business calls get the points (because the employee spent the time making the call)? Or should the employer who paid the phone bill get the points?

Redeeming a ticket for your mother is not against the rules. Selling tickets to your friends is against the rules (as well as selling a ticket to your mother :) ). Just because it's unenforceable doesn't mean it's not wrong. Laws should be enforceable, but we are talking about airlines here, where the concept of fair application, stable government regulations, and things like that don't apply.

Maybe they should and maybe they shouldn't, but how would they enforce them anyway--without just doing away with the programs altogether, which is how they think anyway! You said it: we are talking about airlines here... It does not apply for them, so when in that world, it certainly does not apply for me either. Why should it? When in Rome, right?

I have 400,000 Delta miles earned since last year that I can't possibly use this year unless I take a two month sabbatical. :)

The airlines ARE starting to follow suit on models of cutting back, changing award terms way too many times in too short of a period and on a continuously devolving basis, and just plain playing dirtier than I even can. Thus, if I were you I would do the right thing and find a few friends or co-workers to sell those DL miles off to now, before they are worthless some day soon. I have the feeling that by next year at this time, your 400k horded miles will be worth more like 250k or something, just because of factored in cuts, changes, and rules we cannot possibly work fast enough around to avoid. I have no solid figures on this of course, but take that $5 fee on some airlines and $15 on others... Consider that there were times when a free ticket could be one that included taxes and fees, and consider the lack of ease of redeeming the miles on popular routes. So are you saving them for a big family trip in FC or what? I usually plan for certain levels, attain them, and burn promptly. If I hit it wrong and need more, I can contact others who may trade with me for things I need! Why would I hit it wrong and need more you ask? Well, you may ask... just consider NWA's sudden decision to raise the 5k RT award between Hawaiian islands to 10k on March 1st! Where do you get 5k over night? You need friends with other disposable miles. I am telling you, if the airlines can partner up, we can too! And all 'white envelopes' aside, we certainly do! Now multiply this award level x 10 or x 20 and you can see that you need to work together to make this stuff happen so you can actually USE the miles to get your reduced fare 'award' flights (they are not free, BTW, as you surely know).

I think it is good that Southwest may award more miles for business travel, but this does not send the same message in my mind as would the opposite marketing approach put forth by the majors like United: Pay a $15 fee to use your miles when calling on the phone vs. the internet.

Consider the opposing ways to send a message to your customer bases here... Maybe THAT is why Southwest is successful? And guess what else: well treated and nicely rewarded frequent liesure travelers may bring their business to that airline!

So who does it start with? Some companies have not forgotten that one...

;)MM

This topic reminds me of AM talk radio -- in-your-face opinions designed to generate a large, angry audience.

The airlines ARE starting to follow suit on models of cutting back, changing award terms way too many times in too short of a period and on a continuously devolving basis, and just plain playing dirtier than I even can. Thus, if I were you I would do the right thing and find a few friends or co-workers to sell those DL miles off to now, before they are worthless some day soon. I have the feeling that by next year at this time, your 400k horded miles will be worth more like 250k or something, just because of factored in cuts, changes, and rules we cannot possibly work fast enough around to avoid. I have no solid figures on this of course, but take that $5 fee on some airlines and $15 on others... Consider that there were times when a free ticket could be one that included taxes and fees, and consider the lack of ease of redeeming the miles on popular routes. So are you saving them for a big family trip in FC or what? I usually plan for certain levels, attain them, and burn promptly. If I hit it wrong and need more, I can contact others who may trade with me for things I need! Why would I hit it wrong and need more you ask? Well, you may ask... just consider NWA's sudden decision to raise the 5k RT award between Hawaiian islands to 10k on March 1st! Where do you get 5k over night? You need friends with other disposable miles. I am telling you, if the airlines can partner up, we can too! And all 'white envelopes' aside, we certainly do! Now multiply this award level x 10 or x 20 and you can see that you need to work together to make this stuff happen so you can actually USE the miles to get your reduced fare 'award' flights (they are not free, BTW, as you surely know).

Even if I did want to sell my Delta miles, the price I would get is less the value I could get using them myself. I have used FF miles on regular domestic coach awards that would otherwise cost $500 to $750 to purchase. No one is going to pay me 2 to 3 cents per FF mile unless they're stupid.

One thing that keeps the mileage high is that my wife refuses to take any international or overwater flights (opposites attract -- so true). Next year I will try to convince her to fly to Hawaii -- it's overwater but at least it's not the "scary" international. With five people total (three kids), and in First Class, I can get the balance down a decent amount. Of course, First Class awards to Hawaii, especially five of them, isn't that easy. :mad: If First Class is unavailable, even if we do coach, the $/mile value is still very good.

This topic reminds me of AM talk radio -- in-your-face opinions designed to generate a large, angry audience.

And much like AM talk radio topics, this thread has ceased to make sense quite a while back. ;)

Frist of all, award travel is designed not only to fill otherwise empty seats, but primarily to foster "loyaltly." In fact they are called loyalty programs.

Secondly, not every business traveller is in the hire of a huge corporation. Many of us are self-employed. Many of us use our earned miles in the service of our own little businesses. Why should we be denied that so that you can accumulate all those lovely miles for your personal use?

Third, airlines sell these miles to credit card companies, etc. They are a very important source of revenue. That many go unused can be seen either as a liability or as "free money" for the airlines.

NO! It would not be "fair" to restrict use of earned miles for "leisure" travel. Frankly, with all the travel I do for my own business, that last thing I want to do for fun is to get on another damn airplane!

I use my valuable miles mostly for upgrades and sometimes to keep my own costs down. Changing the rules would be anything but "fair" to the many lke me.

Your point of view is very narrow, IMO.

Best wishes,

Teacher49

Just FYI re: US Airways award tickets:

A standard award on US does have to be ticketed with a Saturday night stay. But the beauty of these awards lies in the fact that you can standby ANY DAY prior to your outbound or return segment for no charge---making them very flexible and perfect for non-reimbursable/non-expensable business travel. For example, if I want to take a trip using a US Airways award leaving Monday and returning Wednesday, I can ticket it as Monday-Sunday but then show up at the airport on Wednesday to stand by on the next available flight home. Perfectly legal according to US Airways rules and one reason I love US award tickets (the only thing I don't love is that they're non-upgradeable for elites). Since most flights go out with at least one empty seat during the week, one's chances of standing by successfully on a midweek flight, and avoiding the Saturday night stay requirement, are pretty good.

Frist of all, award travel is designed not only to fill otherwise empty seats, but primarily to foster "loyaltly." In fact they are called loyalty programs.

Secondly, not every business traveller is in the hire of a huge corporation. Many of us are self-employed. Many of us use our earned miles in the service of our own little businesses. Why should we be denied that so that you can accumulate all those lovely miles for your personal use?

Third, airlines sell these miles to credit card companies, etc. They are a very important source of revenue. That many go unused can be seen either as a liability or as "free money" for the airlines.

NO! It would not be "fair" to restrict use of earned miles for "leisure" travel. Frankly, with all the travel I do for my own business, that last thing I want to do for fun is to get on another damn airplane!

I use my valuable miles mostly for upgrades and sometimes to keep my own costs down. Changing the rules would be anything but "fair" to the many lke me.

Your point of view is very narrow, IMO.

Best wishes,

Teacher49

That's why I suggested back on page 1 or 2 to not just make an exception for small businesses, say 10 employees or less, (which would be the same rule we have today), but do something to actually attract small businesses, if such a thing doesn't already exist today, and I haven't heard of any. Think of the small business as being the account holder rather than the passenger. This would be very simple for the self-employed, since it's the same person every time. So, if the small business wants to take a "vacation" (which would be a business trip by definition of a small business going somewhere), go for it.

There is an underlying design flaw in the FF programs that makes issues like these issues. It is that the airlines are not necessarily rewarding the right people. I am sure I am going to get hammered on this, but oh well.

FF programs should reward the customer - the paying customer. Isn't that what a reward program should do? Reward someone for buying greater quantities of a product?

Who is paying for the tickets? Sometimes the flyer has control or influence over this. If the flyer has (or can influence) the decision to fly whatever airline he/she wants, then he/she should get the reward. If the flyer is forced to fly a certain airline and has no choice, then why should he/she get any reward? The flyer cannot take his/her business elsewhere. The purchaser should be rewarded.

There are a lot more complicating issues involved here such as flight scheduling and routing but this is an issue that I think a lot of people on this board lose sight of. It is not the flyer who is the paying customer in most cases.

What airlines should do is forget that there is any distinction between business and leisure travel. The fantasy that there is a difference in all cases is one of the worst issues the airlines are dealing with at this time. Sure, in some cases it is different in terms of what people will pay, but the differential is decreasing as are the numbers that will pay any differential at all. Travel is travel and they should treat it as such. Only when they realize this will they be able to really develop a rational pricing model for their service. I still hear airline employees talking about how next year after more recovery business travel will be up as if people will be willing to shell out three large for a coach transcon ticket if it is for "business". Anything that keeps airlines thinking in the outdated, unrealistic mode of business versus leisure is counterproductive. I even think they should get rid of the term business class on flights.