America West FlightFund (Discontinued Program) - 2 HP flights, same time, different a/c

Apologies in advance, but I couldn't find a thread on this using Google.

I'm booking a (very rare) trip on HP, and noticed that they seem to have 2 flights on the same route, at the same time, but on different aircraft.

LAX-PHX HP 272 (A320) dep 1242 arr 1502
LAX-PHX HP 85 (B757) dep 1242 arr 1502

Do they really have 2 flights? Is it a race? :D (that would be neat...)

I'm sure there's a simple explanation, well known to the HP regulars. Please share it!

thx.

Apologies in advance, but I couldn't find a thread on this using Google.

I'm booking a (very rare) trip on HP, and noticed that they seem to have 2 flights on the same route, at the same time, but on different aircraft.

LAX-PHX HP 272 (A320) dep 1242 arr 1502
LAX-PHX HP 85 (B757) dep 1242 arr 1502

Do they really have 2 flights? Is it a race? :D (that would be neat...)

I'm sure there's a simple explanation, well known to the HP regulars. Please share it!

thx.

There are two flights and they often leave from adjacent gates (which causes great confusion for passengers). This is common on the LAX and SAN routes as they typically have more passengers than can be accomodated on one plane. I've noticed that the website usually rotates the order in which they are listed with the assumption that most people will pick the first one in the list. I'm not sure if they perform that rotation based on load or not.

I typically prefer the A320 to the 757 if I know that I'm in Y. With the Gold upgrades I usually opt for the 757 as there are 2 more F seats available.

Hi,

I have also seen the two flights with different numbers ( different aircraft) on the LAS-PHX run ( ususally about 1230-1300 in June/Sept last year)

Regards

TBS

It is a race that the 757 Slaveship usually loses because of the extra time required to load the PAX. If you are trying to hit a connecting flight to Asia, the best bet are the Airbi in my non-random sample of flight experience.

Yea, they've been doing this for years. Kinda wacky but also fun in that you get to choose what a/c type ya wanna fly :) I know, it's the little things :p

Thanks, all.

Apologies in advance, but I couldn't find a thread on this using Google.

I'm booking a (very rare) trip on HP, and noticed that they seem to have 2 flights on the same route, at the same time, but on different aircraft.

LAX-PHX HP 272 (A320) dep 1242 arr 1502
LAX-PHX HP 85 (B757) dep 1242 arr 1502

Do they really have 2 flights? Is it a race? :D (that would be neat...)

I'm sure there's a simple explanation, well known to the HP regulars. Please share it!

thx.

In airline speak, it's called wingtip service. Since HP operates a hub & spoke network in Phoenix and LAX is a big airport, they can fill up more than a 757 worth of passengers at 1242. Therefore, they schedule an additional flight on an Airbus at the same time to accommodate the additional passengers desiring to travel.

Actually, there are many "duel-ops" (for duel operations) in both directions between PHX and LAS as well as other cities. At LAS anyway, it is sort of a race to see which one gets out first. Often, the second flight ends up holding for "flow control".

Actually, there are many "duel-ops" (for duel operations) in both directions between PHX and LAS as well as other cities. At LAS anyway, it is sort of a race to see which one gets out first. Often, the second flight ends up holding for "flow control".

Actually it's DUAL ops, not duel. The two aircraft don't get into a sword fight on the tarmac! :D

They do that a couple of times a day for SAN-PHX. Sometimes scheduled to leave at the same time, sometimes scheduled with 5 or 10 minutes difference. The interesting thing is, in every case, the Airbus gets out before the 737 or 757... so I always book the bus...

There are two flights and they often leave from adjacent gates (which causes great confusion for passengers). This is common on the LAX and SAN routes as they typically have more passengers than can be accomodated on one plane. I've noticed that the website usually rotates the order in which they are listed with the assumption that most people will pick the first one in the list. I'm not sure if they perform that rotation based on load or not.



It's hilarious because they're often (IIRC) in A23 & A24 or somesuch, and right next to each other at the end of the concourse, so limited seating, screaming, yelling, etc. Dueling gate announcements going to the same place, folks trying to get on the wrong flight, etc etc etc.

There is almost always some family that comes running up in a huff only to find their plane already closed and pushed, then told to rebook "next door."

It's great. Bring popcorn next time :)

It's hilarious because they're often (IIRC) in A23 & A24 or somesuch, and right next to each other at the end of the concourse, so limited seating, screaming, yelling, etc. Dueling gate announcements going to the same place, folks trying to get on the wrong flight, etc etc etc.

There is almost always some family that comes running up in a huff only to find their plane already closed and pushed, then told to rebook "next door."

It's great. Bring popcorn next time :)

I was on one where there was a large family together that had obviously made different reservations. Apparently the person in charge of coordinating the trip just told the other members to "get on the 12:42 flight to Los Angeles." None of them realized that there were two flights so they were split up and didn't know it. One flight departed well before the other and they all attempted to board the latter flight. The GA explained the situation and that this flight was full. The leader got really upset until the GA from the other flight came over and said, "I'm very sorry for your confusion, but didn't you hear me paging you? I must have announced your names 4 or 5 times."

There are also the people who look at the monitors in the terminal and just find the city and time and don't bother to check the flight number. Often these flights depart from different concourses and there's always an entertaining moment of realization where the passenger needs to run (ala OJ in the Avis commercial) in order to make it from A23 to B4.

It's the little things that make flying out of PHX bearable....

I took this flight out of LAX one time, and decided on the 757, since I just preferred the plane type. (It ended up being the same 757 we took for our honeymoon, but that's neither here nor there.)

Sitting up in first, though, I noticed that the 320 got out first. As it was turning that corner from the taxiway to the runway, I saw the copilot wave goodbye to the pilot of our 757.

He was happy. :)

Yes I always choose the airbus when I have a choice and yes, it's usually the SAN-PHX route. I'm not a big fan of the 757s either way and try to avoid them like the plague.

Noticed in the Dual Ops that there are two flights PHX to LAX leaving at 4:19.
HP32 is a 733, HP708 is a 752. Other posters agree that an A320 usually wins the race out of the gate. What about the race between the 733 and 752? Would it be the 733 because of fewer pax boarding? Is there a preference between the two in cabin comfort?

I actually have a problem with how they schedule these flights. For example, I think the LAX-PHX departures - you either get the dual flights at 3:30ish or you have to wait until 6:30ish. To me, it would have been better to have a 3:30 then a 4:30.

Of course, the other things to consider are the connecting banks at PHX so I know it is not as easy.

The reason I hate it is that when coming on BR 12 from TPE (arr about 2:00 in the winter), connecting to the 3:30ish flights is not a legal connection. Frequently, you can make it if you rush. It would be much better if they have a flight just outside the minimum connecting window. They are codeshare partners after all.

This sort of thing can also be a saving grace....

A year or so ago I was on the LAST FLIGHT OF THE DAY from LAX to LAS...two flights...both 855PM departures...both A319s. The flight I was originally on was delayed and the other one wasnt. Since it was a paid F ticket, I went to the counter and switched over to the flight that wasnt delayed. It turned out to be a good idea since I got to LAS on time. :D

I actually have a problem with how they schedule these flights. For example, I think the LAX-PHX departures - you either get the dual flights at 3:30ish or you have to wait until 6:30ish. To me, it would have been better to have a 3:30 then a 4:30.

Before the "dual-op" days, the LAX/PHX flights did leave on almost an hourly basis, similar to WNs schedule. I preferred this over the less frequent, dual-op flights.

Are there reasons other than additional capacity that they schedule flights like this?

I've seen situations where dual-op flights were consolidated into one flight due to equipment problems or some such thing but wondered if there might be other operations related reasons they do this.

Before the "dual-op" days, the LAX/PHX flights did leave on almost an hourly basis, similar to WNs schedule. I preferred this over the less frequent, dual-op flights.

Are there reasons other than additional capacity that they schedule flights like this?

I've seen situations where dual-op flights were consolidated into one flight due to equipment problems or some such thing but wondered if there might be other operations related reasons they do this.

The primary reason is the HUB and SPOKE system. To HP, LAX is a spoke and PHX is a hub. HP flies passengers to PHX primarily when there are connecting possibilities. Apparently, there is not enough high paying local traffic between LAX and PHX. Therefore, they fly at times when passengers are able to connect to Eastbound HP flights.

The primary reason is the HUB and SPOKE system. To HP, LAX is a spoke and PHX is a hub. HP flies passengers to PHX primarily when there are connecting possibilities. Apparently, there is not enough high paying local traffic between LAX and PHX. Therefore, they fly at times when passengers are able to connect to Eastbound HP flights.

that makes plenty of sense, but then why not space the pair out by a minute or two? the exact twinned departures seem to just invite unnecessary passenger confusion.

:) As an America West employee, stationed in Las Vegas, I like to add a comment or two:

There are actually 3 flights within a span of 10 minutes from Las Vegas to Phoenix. HP-85 departs at 12:45, HP-418 departs at 12:50, and HP-59 departs at 12:55.

Phoenix and Las Vegas are our major hubs and HP flights have to be "repositioned" a lot, and also handle large passenger loads.

You will see additional increase in Flights between Las Vegas and Phoenix later this year when the Hawaii flights are launched.

Thanks for flying America West.

DGC

that makes plenty of sense, but then why not space the pair out by a minute or two? the exact twinned departures seem to just invite unnecessary passenger confusion.

Agreed! The agents should also make some pre-emptive announcements for passengers unfamiliar with these types of operations. For example, "Passengers, before we start boarding flight xxx to PHX, please take a moment to look at your boarding passes. Please make sure that your boarding pass says flight xxx. We do have two flights to Phoenix at the same time. Flight xxx leaves from this gate, B-14. Flight yyy leaves from gate B-15. Please make sure that you are at the correct gate. Thank you."

Agreed! The agents should also make some pre-emptive announcements for passengers unfamiliar with these types of operations. For example, "Passengers, before we start boarding flight xxx to PHX, please take a moment to look at your boarding passes. Please make sure that your boarding pass says flight xxx. We do have two flights to Phoenix at the same time. Flight xxx leaves from this gate, B-14. Flight yyy leaves from gate B-15. Please make sure that you are at the correct gate. Thank you."
Well, they usually announce something similar to this prior to boarding flights HP30/HP616 LAX-PHX, both departing at 3:50PM. The only thing is that most of the remaining announcements are usually like this:

"PHX passengers in groups 1 & 2 may now board through gate 9"
"Boarding all groups to PHX through gate 11"
"If you're flying to PHX on the 3:50 departure and your boarding pass has group 1 or group 2 printed on it, please board now through gate 9"

Between the 1st announcement and the final boarding announcement you rarely hear the flight number mentioned. Then if someone gets into the wrong line because of this confusion, the HP agent at the jetway door yells at you...."You're in the WRONG line!"