JetBlue TrueBlue - Song goes after Jet Blue transcons - USA Today

Delta's Song to double daily flights from JFK
By Marilyn Adams, USA TODAY

Delta's low-fare subsidiary Song is doubling daily flights from John F. Kennedy Airport, heating up discount competition in the huge New York air market.

No more first class: Song will replace Delta on its JFK-LAX routes, dropping service to just one class on each flight.

The new flights, announced Wednesday, are part of a broader move by No. 3 Delta to bulk up its low-fare brand, and sharpen transcontinental competition with discounter JetBlue.

Also part of the Delta announcement: an additional 12 planes for Song, for a total of 36, and new entertainment options for passengers. The Song expansion runs counter to the widespread expectation in the aviation business last year that Delta CEO Jerry Grinstein would declare Song a failed experiment and pull the plug.

Song launched in 2003 largely to compete with New York-based discounter JetBlue, which began transcontinental flights in 2000.

Delta said it will convert to Song flights its own current flights from JFK to Los Angeles International, San Francisco and Seattle. That means a switch from two-class Delta airplanes to Song's all-coach aircraft. Even with Delta dropping out, the company will be increasing flights and total capacity on those routes.

"We determined that Song is the most competitive weapon we have for these markets," Delta spokeswoman Katie Connell said.

Song's all-coach Boeing 757s seat more passengers and fly more trips per day than Delta's traditional 757s, making Song more cost-effective, Delta officials say.

Song will launch seven daily flights from JFK to LAX in May. In July, five daily flights from JFK to San Francisco and three to Seattle will start. In June, Song also will start daily flights to San Juan, Puerto Rico. By September, Song will offer 176 daily flights nationwide. Song began promoting the new West Coast cities on Wednesday with fares from $99 one-way.

Song's expansion comes as Delta, which is posting heavy losses, is shutting its Dallas hub to cut costs.

In addition to seat-back satellite TV, Song planes are being equipped to provide each passenger with on-demand movies for $5 each.

JetBlue offers daily flights from JFK to Long Beach and Oakland, instead of LAX and San Francisco. It also flies daily from New York to Seattle, as well as Sacramento, San Jose, Ontario, and San Diego, Calif.

JetBlue spokesman Todd Burke called Song's announcement "nothing more than Delta flights being switched to Song."

But Delta officials said the Song flights will boost Delta's flying capacity to the three West Coast cities by 65%. Connell said the transcontinental flights will complement the rest of Song's schedule, which is mainly between the Northeast to Florida, a seasonal market.

Excuse me while I yawn. This is going to happen every summer from now on. Last year. Friend fly free, or triple miles. I think Delta needs to figure out what they are doing. Lowering fares on mainline AND expanding Song really doesn't make to much sense. I think that Song is just doing this just to say that they are in the market with Jetblue. Why not be original for once.

Transcon market is not just JFK-LAX or JFK-SFO. B6 has non-stop flts on multiple transcon routes (BOS-SJC, SAN-IAD, SMF-JFK, etc.). I don't think Delta with its cost structure can compete effectively against Jetblue. Jetblue has already overtaken DL in JFK by carrying the most passengers. DL is fighting back but it is a losing struggle. JBLU is growing into routes American is abandoning and United is retreating from. It is foolish for DL to try to pick a fight with B6 on these routes.

DL has a lot of 757s (Song's fleet). Why not use them on routes where there is no or minimal low fare competition. It will be a while before B6 can get planes that have the range and capacity of 757. Instead, Delta is foolishly fighting with Jetblue in the wrong markets. Let us see who will win out. For now, B6 is making profits while DL is losing excessive amounts of money.

Well isn't that cute, song wants to fly transcon now... Well it was going to happen sooner or later. I also think Delta need to start thinking outside the box. Like umm, United with UnitedPS, even though the economy class seat pitch on PS and on jetBlue's rows 13+ is the same at 34". Don't know how sucessful PS is but you do have to give them credit for trying something new instead of following someone else.

Well isn't that cute, song wants to fly transcon now... Well it was going to happen sooner or later. I also think Delta need to start thinking outside the box. Like umm, United with UnitedPS, even though the economy class seat pitch on PS and on jetBlue's rows 13+ is the same at 34". Don't know how sucessful PS is but you do have to give them credit for trying something new instead of following someone else.

PS business is a FANTASTIC product. It's the classiest way to cross the continent. PS first uses the SQ sliding seats - not so good.

It is foolish for DL to try to pick a fight with B6 on these routes.
What, and just hand over a monopoly to B6?


DL has a lot of 757s (Song's fleet). Why not use them on routes where there is no or minimal low fare competition. It will be a while before B6 can get planes that have the range and capacity of 757. Instead, Delta is foolishly fighting with Jetblue in the wrong markets. Let us see who will win out. For now, B6 is making profits while DL is losing excessive amounts of money.
There aren't that many longer than transcon routes where there is minimal low fare competition unless DL is going to go a lot more international. It makes sense for Song, which is a great product (I think better than B6) to fly routes that DL needs in order to maintain its more destinations appeal for frequent fliers. Just MHO.
:) Besides, in the longer run, with some good management, Song/DL can succesfully "fight" B6.

Bursa, just for information, why do you feel Song is better than JetBlue? Song is miles better than mainline DL, but their people don't match up to JetBlue's in any comparison. I happen to like 757s better than 320s but if I have to spend more than an hour in ANY plane, I'd go out of my way for JetBlue. What is it you like about Song? Thank you.

Bursa, just for information, why do you feel Song is better than JetBlue? Song is miles better than mainline DL, but their people don't match up to JetBlue's in any comparison. I happen to like 757s better than 320s but if I have to spend more than an hour in ANY plane, I'd go out of my way for JetBlue. What is it you like about Song? Thank you.
Just wondering, why do you like B6 better? :D Personally I like the 757s. The smaller front cabin has a more exclusive feel, sort of like a business class. Or I sit in row 9, which is a bulkhead with the boarding door so there's a LOT of legroom or seat 10A/F, which has no seat in front of it. The IFE in Song is just as good as, if not better than, B6. There's now a new "MP3" style player where one can add select tracks from the huge selection of music to play, and choose the order, restart, etc. There's also 24 channels of live DirecTV (similar to B6, I admit) and flight tracker and music trivia game. Also, every time I don't check-in online, there's almost always no line at the special Song kiosks and in the rare event there is, I can go to the DL Medallion check-in queue. Song also has low fares, usually the same or lower than B6 on the routes I fly. And who can forget the Skymiles?
Just my opinion. What do you mean by "their people?" I've never gotten rude service, and every airline has mostly nice staff, a few extraordinary ones, and a few grumpy ones. Depends on the day, situation, etc...with so many employees not all of them are perfect, but most of them are nice. Hey, I've even been in the Song 757 cockpit a few flights and spoke to the FO/pilot. If you want to debate nicely, feel free to PM me.

Having flown both Song and B6, I just feel that flying B6 out of JFK is a betetr product. I get a better route network, and better service(overall Song just has the Delta vibe and subsequent bad service). More importantly, a great dealof flights that both B6 and Song fly, I find that B6 has better times available and often a better frequency. Any seat behind row 12 is solid on B6 w/ 34" seat pitch and their exit rows are great and I often am able to snag that.

Miles aside, thats the one B6 weakness, but one I can manage. delta cant keep up their current financial crisis, losing that much money annually and keep Song afloat. Its a noble effort, but one I think Song will lose in a few years, especially once B6's network explodes (thiking BOS firsthand) and they add the E-190's to a slew of detsinations.

I am not joining the fight. I flew both jetblue and song and have both good and bad days with these airlines. They are both fine LCCs... I actually like Jetblue slightly better of a more pleasing interior and helpful F/As -- never more than happy to give you a drink or more snacks. Jetblue F/As are always passing out full can of bev and pretty friendly. Song is fine as well, but the cup of soda and BOB do not really make me feel better. I actually think the worst aspect of SONG is the interior -- the colorful design is just not working... I am sorry...

About this latest competition, I don't know if Delta is thinking the right thing... with this bold move, DL gives up many many things -- it will possibly lose a huge amount of LAX based business travellers, which will move to UA or AA or even HP, that offer a F cabin and upgrades. (Song does not even provide priority boarding as of this point and the premium section limits to first four rows.) Additionally, DL gives up all those premium fare travellers from Europe or India... ATL is the only option if you want F all the way, but ATL offers limited service to Europe compared to the mega hub of JFK. LAX, SFO and SEA are possibly more expensive airports to operate to...

I am not sure if this is the smart move...

But Jetblue is doing something right... AA will discontinue JFK-SJC flight in June, while Jetblue is expanding into SJC.

Carfield

Just wondering, why do you like B6 better? :D Personally I like the 757s. The smaller front cabin has a more exclusive feel, sort of like a business class. Or I sit in row 9, which is a bulkhead with the boarding door so there's a LOT of legroom or seat 10A/F, which has no seat in front of it. The IFE in Song is just as good as, if not better than, B6. There's now a new "MP3" style player where one can add select tracks from the huge selection of music to play, and choose the order, restart, etc. There's also 24 channels of live DirecTV (similar to B6, I admit) and flight tracker and music trivia game. Also, every time I don't check-in online, there's almost always no line at the special Song kiosks and in the rare event there is, I can go to the DL Medallion check-in queue. Song also has low fares, usually the same or lower than B6 on the routes I fly. And who can forget the Skymiles?
Just my opinion. What do you mean by "their people?" I've never gotten rude service, and every airline has mostly nice staff, a few extraordinary ones, and a few grumpy ones. Depends on the day, situation, etc...with so many employees not all of them are perfect, but most of them are nice. Hey, I've even been in the Song 757 cockpit a few flights and spoke to the FO/pilot. If you want to debate nicely, feel free to PM me.

Song can add MP3 and whatever else, throw double miles, but, on a customer basis, you can't beat Jetblue. The extent that Jetblue crew members will go to make sure that you are happy is impeccable.

Americans can tell the difference between a company that is a fraud and a company that is genuine. People must believe in Jetblue, because, like myself, they keep coming back for more.

Song can add MP3 and whatever else, throw double miles, but, on a customer basis, you can't beat Jetblue. The extent that Jetblue crew members will go to make sure that you are happy is impeccable.

Americans can tell the difference between a company that is a fraud and a company that is genuine. People must believe in Jetblue, because, like myself, they keep coming back for more.


I agree. The question is can they preserve this culture and attitude as they expand and face tough times (common in this industry).

Bursa, for me, it's clearly the people, both counter and in-flight. My company used to have a "deal" with Delta so I flew a lot of mainline and Song. No matter what, the DL culture seems to bleed through. I've had a few rude encounters at DL but mostly it's just indifference. I have been involved in a few conversations where flight attendants were unhappy with policy and procedure, and were basicly told "tough." During the last year, I have flown a lot on JB and truthfully have never had a bad experience. On the contrary, their people always seem to be going out of their way to be helpful, offer repeated drinks/snacks, and constantly in the cabin looking for ways to serve. DL people tend to hide after the first service. All factors considered, I go out of my way to fly JB. JMHO.

Having flown both Song and B6, I just feel that flying B6 out of JFK is a betetr product. I get a better route network.


kdinino,
I don't see what you are talking about, I took a look at the JetBlue and Song route maps and they are almost identical, except for JetBlue flies to the Dominican Republic and Song flies to Aruba.

Also I noticed that DL already has another 85 757s on the mianline that they could very easily turn into Song birds, which could make the Song fleet explode faster than JB.

kdinino,
I don't see what you are talking about, I took a look at the JetBlue and Song route maps and they are almost identical, except for JetBlue flies to the Dominican Republic and Song flies to Aruba.

Also I noticed that DL already has another 85 757s on the mianline that they could very easily turn into Song birds, which could make the Song fleet explode faster than JB.

First off, Jetblue flies to at least 11 more destinations then song. So what if Delta has 85 757 in their mainline fleet. What are they going to do, convert them all at one time. That makes sense, go from 48 to over 100 in a year. And why would they commit more planes. They are adding 12 planes this year. This is their first expansion since coming into existence. Jetblue will have 91 planes at the end of the year, including 7 E190. This is where Song will not be able to copy Jetblue. You can't throw a 757 into Richmond, or Portland, Maine, or Columbus.

If given the choice between JetBlue and Song on transcons, I'd easily choose Song for two reasons:

1) A far better frequent flyer program with the potential for elite status, preferred seating, and international awards. The lack of such perks is the prime reason I don't fly JetBlue.

2) More convenient airports on the West Coast; LAX is much closer to where I work than LGB. Ditto for SFO versus OAK for many people.

Agree with wahooflyer but JetBlue is much nicer flying experience.

kdinino,
I don't see what you are talking about, I took a look at the JetBlue and Song route maps and they are almost identical, except for JetBlue flies to the Dominican Republic and Song flies to Aruba.

Also I noticed that DL already has another 85 757s on the mianline that they could very easily turn into Song birds, which could make the Song fleet explode faster than JB.



I fly JFK to ROC and BUF a few times a month. Jetblue has both these markets down pat, with high frequencies and crummy competition (US Air) on both routes. JFK-LAS on B6 has better flight times/frequencies for me. I also fly JFK-MSY and JFK-SJC and Song doesn't touch these markets. Heck even SEA and SLC aren't touched by Song and I've flown B6 from JFK on both these routes...even DEN....so yes there is plenty of difference.

First off, Jetblue flies to at least 11 more destinations then song. So what if Delta has 85 757 in their mainline fleet. What are they going to do, convert them all at one time. That makes sense, go from 48 to over 100 in a year. And why would they commit more planes. They are adding 12 planes this year. This is their first expansion since coming into existence. Jetblue will have 91 planes at the end of the year, including 7 E190. This is where Song will not be able to copy Jetblue. You can't throw a 757 into Richmond, or Portland, Maine, or Columbus.


Actually in my opinion the Jungle Jet service is precisely where Song could clobber JetBlue. As of December 30th Delta operated 229 50 seater Tundra Jets of the 50 seater variety, and another 58 of the 70 seater variety. (They might actualy be the largest operator of regional jets in the world but I don't know that for sure.) They also happen to have orders and option for over 125 of each of those.
I'm sure that if they were really feeling threatened that they might devise a way to incorporate some of those into the Song service.

Don't get me wrong I love what all 3 of the major LCCs (SouthWest, AirTran, and JetBlue) have done for air travel in this country and I certainly wish JetBlue no harm in their efforts; I am just trying to point out that Delta has been putting together what looks like a very competitive product here and it looks like they are focusing it on JetBlue. That's all that I'm trying to say, look at the route maps and if in a couple of months you hear Song announcing service to MSY or DEN or one of the several other places that they don't fly now but JetBlue does, don't be suprised.

Actually in my opinion the Jungle Jet service is precisely where Song could clobber JetBlue. As of December 30th Delta operated 229 50 seater Tundra Jets of the 50 seater variety, and another 58 of the 70 seater variety. (They might actualy be the largest operator of regional jets in the world but I don't know that for sure.) They also happen to have orders and option for over 125 of each of those.
I'm sure that if they were really feeling threatened that they might devise a way to incorporate some of those into the Song service.

Don't get me wrong I love what all 3 of the major LCCs (SouthWest, AirTran, and JetBlue) have done for air travel in this country and I certainly wish JetBlue no harm in their efforts; I am just trying to point out that Delta has been putting together what looks like a very competitive product here and it looks like they are focusing it on JetBlue. That's all that I'm trying to say, look at the route maps and if in a couple of months you hear Song announcing service to MSY or DEN or one of the several other places that they don't fly now but JetBlue does, don't be suprised.


yes delta's song is certainly targeting jblu. their prices are often lower than jblu and the offerings onboard to me seem superior, much larger digital screens vs. jblus analog small 5" screens, and great food with name brand offerings. song has now outcarried jblu in terms of passengers using less jets for some time now. jblus profits as reported by many reports have dropped 88% over the last year largely due to song.
I work for song and used to hear the word jblu almost everyday when song started. now i fly hundreds of hours before even hearing the name even once from a customer. But i definitely see many many old tattered jetblue tags still hanging from their bags from the "old days". And honestly, I hear raving praise about song on many first time song customers and see huge amounts of regular repeat customers who still praise song for the service, very low prices and the amenities such as the games n tv n music onboard.
I know i am biased in my position, but all of the above is true and i havent exagerrated about it. what the above poster said about the Regional Jet fleet Delta has is true, it is the largest of all. By the way song is hiring 300 new flight attendants,adding 12 new jets, and will fly to Aruba, LAX, Seattle, San Francisco, and San Juan ...all out of JFK, Jblues home turf. Delta announced this to us employees as only the beginning of song expansion.

yes delta's song is certainly targeting jblu. their prices are often lower than jblu and the offerings onboard to me seem superior, much larger digital screens vs. jblus analog small 5" screens, and great food with name brand offerings. song has now outcarried jblu in terms of passengers using less jets for some time now. jblus profits as reported by many reports have dropped 88% over the last year largely due to song.
I work for song and used to hear the word jblu almost everyday when song started. now i fly hundreds of hours before even hearing the name even once from a customer. But i definitely see many many old tattered jetblue tags still hanging from their bags from the "old days". And honestly, I hear raving praise about song on many first time song customers and see huge amounts of regular repeat customers who still praise song for the service, very low prices and the amenities such as the games n tv n music onboard.
I know i am biased in my position, but all of the above is true and i havent exagerrated about it. what the above poster said about the Regional Jet fleet Delta has is true, it is the largest of all. By the way song is hiring 300 new flight attendants,adding 12 new jets, and will fly to Aruba, LAX, Seattle, San Francisco, and San Juan ...all out of JFK, Jblues home turf. Delta announced this to us employees as only the beginning of song expansion.


You forgot to mention that Song is still part of DELTA, a company that is LOST almost $2 BILLION last year. That's a pretty big handicap.

Sure we are all bias, but your points are unfounded. Jetblue new jets will be way more confortable than the ratty old, no IFE delta jungle jets you mention...if they did re-fit them that more money coming out of DL's bottom line--thus maybe they lose $3 Billion next year. I'm all for competition, but I think Song will compete for the short term...their affiliation w/ Delta will ultimately kill them.

You also forgot to mention the better overall service esxperience on jetblue--biased or not, it comes out in the longrun. BTW, Jetblue's market cap is still #2 behind Southwest of all airlines, so they still are hanging in there financially....they actually MADE money last quarter. ;)

You forgot to mention that Song is still part of DELTA, a company that is LOST almost $2 BILLION last year. That's a pretty big handicap.

Sure we are all bias, but your points are unfounded. Jetblue new jets will be way more confortable than the ratty old, no IFE delta jungle jets you mention...if they did re-fit them that more money coming out of DL's bottom line--thus maybe they lose $3 Billion next year. I'm all for competition, but I think Song will compete for the short term...their affiliation w/ Delta will ultimately kill them.

You also forgot to mention the better overall service esxperience on jetblue--biased or not, it comes out in the longrun. BTW, Jetblue's market cap is still #2 behind Southwest of all airlines, so they still are hanging in there financially....they actually MADE money last quarter. ;)

delta is already transforming into a low cost giant.

since those losses they have achieved:

1 billion in pilot savings

1billion in other employee savings(still the highest paid in industry by far)

overhauled entire schedule to gain 43 jets without buying any and saves millions

hundreds of profit improvement initiatives and loss cutting have saved another
2.6 Billion per year.

most of this has never been reflected in any quarterly report so there will be vast improvements over the next 12 months.

delta is morphing agressively into a global low cost carrier and fast.

song has already out carried jet blue last year All by itself.

remember when jetblu tried to go into delta territory in ATL? It took only weeks for them to retreat and pulled their service out. the funniest thing is that song had nothing to do with it.

song is growing by 30 percent directly into jetblues routes.

jetblues profit really did shrink by 88 whole percent. why is that?

in case you are not aware, market cap has little or nothing to do with an airlines ability to become efficient or successful, historically.


when delta becomes truly low cost, and lean, what edge does jetblue have left? delta is now redoing its entire fleet of jets with new interiors and leather seats and is considering an IFE too. then what? they are not sitting idle.

delta sky miles are redeemable globally and with many other airlines..jetblues points are only useable on its small route structure.

jetblues costs are rising as the fleet will now need maintenance and 20 million dollar overhauls. also the workforce is now aging demanding higher wages and there is huge pilot and other unionization pressures. wages will simply have to rise.

their tvs are analog and tiny. they will have to overhaul them eventually.
the honeymoon period is coming to an end. remember 88 percent less profit this year, only 2.4 million dollars over three months. very tiny. thats basically a break even point. it should be much higher for an airline as new and low cost as them. something is happening.

I think the reason we see so many old jetblue bag tags on song customers is because the great service, songs TVs are digital tilting screens and 40 percent larger than jblus. they are touch screen and have MP3s, movies and games, trivia, digital menus showing the great food with name brands you can buy instead of eating chips or peanut dust.
All for often lower prices than jetblue. after all my friend, song fills its jets very full all day long ....where do you think those people came from?

delta is already transforming into a low cost giant.

since those losses they have achieved:

1 billion in pilot savings

1billion in other employee savings(still the highest paid in industry by far)

overhauled entire schedule to gain 43 jets without buying any and saves millions

hundreds of profit improvement initiatives and loss cutting have saved another
2.6 Billion per year.

most of this has never been reflected in any quarterly report so there will be vast improvements over the next 12 months.

delta is morphing agressively into a global low cost carrier and fast.

song has already out carried jet blue last year All by itself.

remember when jetblu tried to go into delta territory in ATL? It took only weeks for them to retreat and pulled their service out. the funniest thing is that song had nothing to do with it.

song is growing by 30 percent directly into jetblues routes.

jetblues profit really did shrink by 88 whole percent. why is that?

in case you are not aware, market cap has little or nothing to do with an airlines ability to become efficient or successful, historically.


when delta becomes truly low cost, and lean, what edge does jetblue have left? delta is now redoing its entire fleet of jets with new interiors and leather seats and is considering an IFE too. then what? they are not sitting idle.

delta sky miles are redeemable globally and with many other airlines..jetblues points are only useable on its small route structure.

jetblues costs are rising as the fleet will now need maintenance and 20 million dollar overhauls. also the workforce is now aging demanding higher wages and there is huge pilot and other unionization pressures. wages will simply have to rise.

their tvs are analog and tiny. they will have to overhaul them eventually.
the honeymoon period is coming to an end. remember 88 percent less profit this year, only 2.4 million dollars over three months. very tiny. thats basically a break even point. it should be much higher for an airline as new and low cost as them. something is happening.

I think the reason we see so many old jetblue bag tags on song customers is because the great service, songs TVs are digital tilting screens and 40 percent larger than jblus. they are touch screen and have MP3s, movies and games, trivia, digital menus showing the great food with name brands you can buy instead of eating chips or peanut dust.
All for often lower prices than jetblue. after all my friend, song fills its jets very full all day long ....where do you think those people came from?

Are you a lawyer, because you can spin the facts. Delta lost over a billion LAST QUARTER, and Jetblue is in trouble. ATL was a mistake, and they admitted it. But how about JFK-Den or JFK-SAN. They tried to take on Jetblue and they lost. And with your arguments, why do they need Song anymore.

I will end all right now: Jetblue is making money. Song, most likely isn't. If they were, why wouldn't they say it. They would love to stick it in jetblue's face. And don't say they are part of Delta, because they could easily calculate it.

delta is already transforming into a low cost giant.

since those losses they have achieved:

1 billion in pilot savings

1billion in other employee savings(still the highest paid in industry by far)

overhauled entire schedule to gain 43 jets without buying any and saves millions

hundreds of profit improvement initiatives and loss cutting have saved another
2.6 Billion per year.

most of this has never been reflected in any quarterly report so there will be vast improvements over the next 12 months.

delta is morphing agressively into a global low cost carrier and fast.

song has already out carried jet blue last year All by itself.

remember when jetblu tried to go into delta territory in ATL? It took only weeks for them to retreat and pulled their service out. the funniest thing is that song had nothing to do with it.

song is growing by 30 percent directly into jetblues routes.

jetblues profit really did shrink by 88 whole percent. why is that?

in case you are not aware, market cap has little or nothing to do with an airlines ability to become efficient or successful, historically.


when delta becomes truly low cost, and lean, what edge does jetblue have left? delta is now redoing its entire fleet of jets with new interiors and leather seats and is considering an IFE too. then what? they are not sitting idle.

delta sky miles are redeemable globally and with many other airlines..jetblues points are only useable on its small route structure.

jetblues costs are rising as the fleet will now need maintenance and 20 million dollar overhauls. also the workforce is now aging demanding higher wages and there is huge pilot and other unionization pressures. wages will simply have to rise.

their tvs are analog and tiny. they will have to overhaul them eventually.
the honeymoon period is coming to an end. remember 88 percent less profit this year, only 2.4 million dollars over three months. very tiny. thats basically a break even point. it should be much higher for an airline as new and low cost as them. something is happening.

I think the reason we see so many old jetblue bag tags on song customers is because the great service, songs TVs are digital tilting screens and 40 percent larger than jblus. they are touch screen and have MP3s, movies and games, trivia, digital menus showing the great food with name brands you can buy instead of eating chips or peanut dust.
All for often lower prices than jetblue. after all my friend, song fills its jets very full all day long ....where do you think those people came from?


wow -- what kool-aid are you drinking??...lol...

Completely agree w/ prs1989. Song is losing money. "saving" money still equals losing lots of money at Delta and/or Song. I love the fact your gung-ho about the company you work for--thats awesome, but this is an objective forum and as a PR guy myself, all this spinning has left me dizzy.

Actually in my opinion the Jungle Jet service is precisely where Song could clobber JetBlue. As of December 30th Delta operated 229 50 seater Tundra Jets of the 50 seater variety, and another 58 of the 70 seater variety. (They might actualy be the largest operator of regional jets in the world but I don't know that for sure.) They also happen to have orders and option for over 125 of each of those.
I'm sure that if they were really feeling threatened that they might devise a way to incorporate some of those into the Song service.

Don't get me wrong I love what all 3 of the major LCCs (SouthWest, AirTran, and JetBlue) have done for air travel in this country and I certainly wish JetBlue no harm in their efforts; I am just trying to point out that Delta has been putting together what looks like a very competitive product here and it looks like they are focusing it on JetBlue. That's all that I'm trying to say, look at the route maps and if in a couple of months you hear Song announcing service to MSY or DEN or one of the several other places that they don't fly now but JetBlue does, don't be suprised.

Don't expect regional jets for song, or jetblue for that matter. I-air has shown that you can't operate regional planes in a low cost sector. Economiccally it doesn't make any sense (See Debonair)

Don't expect regional jets for song, or jetblue for that matter. I-air has shown that you can't operate regional planes in a low cost sector. Economiccally it doesn't make any sense (See Debonair)

Not necessarily. Independence Air's biggest mistakes were 1) starting out with far too many daily flights to the small cities they serve; and 2) basing all their flights out of Dulles---where United flew all the same routes, matched the fares, and offered many generous frequent flyer bonuses like the RTW promo to keep customers from jumping ship.

JetBlue, when it gets the EMB-190s, can focus on underserved and overpriced point-to-point routes, as well as connecting service to JFK.

wow -- what kool-aid are you drinking??...lol...

Completely agree w/ prs1989. Song is losing money. "saving" money still equals losing lots of money at Delta and/or Song. I love the fact your gung-ho about the company you work for--thats awesome, but this is an objective forum and as a PR guy myself, all this spinning has left me dizzy.


You missed it. delta is losing now, yet making drastic changes to become profitable and low cost, therefore beating the micro-lowcost airlines at their own game. being gung ho for your employer is one thing, but these are facts. if delta was not doing what it is doing at this point, there would be nothing for me to post, agreed?

if you care to point out what part is "spin" please proceed to make a point. any point. as far as the kool aid statement guy, you sound like a union-kool-aid- drinking organizer.

Delta is changing; all airlines need to change in order to remain competitive.
DL mainline will soon all have new interiors with all-leather seating.
Song is expanding as well. The Song product is superior- better digital (and apparently larger) touch-screen TVs, MP3 player/trivia game/flight tracker, Delta Skymiles that can take you practically anywhere in the world with Skyteam (and never expire with activity just once every 3 years, unlike Jetblue's points that expire 12 months after posting), DL elite status opportunities, and the same more legroom leather seats. Now the peoplee that say Song is losing money and should be eliminated- what would Delta rather do- nothing and continue to lose money, or change toward the desires of travellers with its Song product and eventually start making money?
About regional jets for Song-nope, not happening soon because that's what Delta Connection (ASA, Comair, Skywest) is for.

Are you a lawyer, because you can spin the facts. Delta lost over a billion LAST QUARTER, and Jetblue is in trouble. ATL was a mistake, and they admitted it. But how about JFK-Den or JFK-SAN. They tried to take on Jetblue and they lost. And with your arguments, why do they need Song anymore.

I will end all right now: Jetblue is making money. Song, most likely isn't. If they were, why wouldn't they say it. They would love to stick it in jetblue's face. And don't say they are part of Delta, because they could easily calculate it.


You will end what all now? by saying things like "most likely", song "most likely" isn't making money? what is that?

as Ving Rhames said in pulp fiction "we don't wanna think, we wanna know".

At least you admit you know nothing about song's earnings. (i dont know if you meant to)
Delta intelligently hides song's finances within its own books to keep jetblue or anyone else in the dark about songs costs or profits. something im sure ticks off jetblues management to no end.

but to clear this up, Delta has stated clearly that song is profitable and became profitable after only its first 9 months of operation.

You finally made a valid point. Actyually any point. You asked why Delta needs song at all if they themselves will now become a low cost giant carrier?
Bravo, a good question.

answer, part one.

Song can operate at a 23% cheaper cost yes 23 than a Delta 757. This is because song is only point to point service, among a myriad of other factors which can be answered later at your request.

anwer part two.
ever heard of a fighter brand in business 101? song is now a successful second brand within delta inc's holding. song serves a unique niche market. the high density, mostly leisure, point to point markets. many many many other companies have done this for decades successfully, clothing brands with multiple labels, multiple toothpaste brands etc. it works. we just havent seen it work before within an airline, until now.

gotta split, but i will be back to finish you off in a while.

deleted :)

There is one and only one reason I prefer to fly Song over JetBlue: Delta SkyMiles.

I don't care which flight attendants are nicer. Which screens are bigger. Which plane has 1 inch more legroom and which airline serves 1 can versus 2 cups of coke. I DON'T CARE!

Now, having said that, SkyMiles offer Song a MINIMAL advantage over JetBlue. For an infrequent flyer on Song/Delta routes such as myself the JetBlue TrueBlue program is worthless.

I find it EXTREMELY IRRITATING however when airline employees falsely point out how easy and valuable airline miles are. For most people, SkyMiles are VERY DIFFICULT to use! If you want to get a coach ticket to Europe this summer (for 50,000 DL miles) you have to either:
a) Fly on the middle tuesday of the month
b) Connect in Raleigh-Durham, Montreal and Milan just to get to Paris
c) Pony up 100,000 miles for a 'SkyChoice' award.... it would take 33(!) roundtrips from TPA to NYC to collect those miles (with 1000 mile online booking bonus included!)

So please quit pointing out how GREAT those SkyMiles are... yes, they are Song's main advantage over JetBlue, but they don't make the :-: fall out of the sky! :rolleyes:

I agree the frequent flyer points are DEFINITELY Song's leg-up over Jet Blue. I personally like just about everything else about Jet Blue more (except the on-board trivia that Song has) but their frequent flyer program sucks!!! I fly quite a bit and even I can't get enough for a free flight before my points magically disappear after one year.

Jet Blue Management: You should either eliminate your freq. flyer program, which would allow you to slightly drop fares for us all (effectively helping those that would earn a free ticket the most anyway), OR do away with the stupid one year rule for your points! If you were to tell me that an airline (somewhat-secretly) eliminates your points after a year, Jet Blue would've been my LAST guess--you guys are GREAT in every other aspect! Either clean up the program, and bring it up to the level of the rest of your airline, or trash it all-together. Trust me, we'd all appreciate it!

There is one and only one reason I prefer to fly Song over JetBlue: Delta SkyMiles.

I don't care which flight attendants are nicer. Which screens are bigger. Which plane has 1 inch more legroom and which airline serves 1 can versus 2 cups of coke. I DON'T CARE!

Now, having said that, SkyMiles offer Song a MINIMAL advantage over JetBlue. For an infrequent flyer on Song/Delta routes such as myself the JetBlue TrueBlue program is worthless.

I find it EXTREMELY IRRITATING however when airline employees falsely point out how easy and valuable airline miles are. For most people, SkyMiles are VERY DIFFICULT to use! If you want to get a coach ticket to Europe this summer (for 50,000 DL miles) you have to either:
a) Fly on the middle tuesday of the month
b) Connect in Raleigh-Durham, Montreal and Milan just to get to Paris
c) Pony up 100,000 miles for a 'SkyChoice' award.... it would take 33(!) roundtrips from TPA to NYC to collect those miles (with 1000 mile online booking bonus included!)

So please quit pointing out how GREAT those SkyMiles are... yes, they are Song's main advantage over JetBlue, but they don't make the :-: fall out of the sky! :rolleyes:
:eek:
But you're on FT, THE site for people who love earning and using miles!
Or you could book early. And having some flexibility doesn't hurt either. But you're on FT!!!!! People here (like me) love skymiles!

I agree with the above post that I can't belive that JetBlue expires points after 12 months, but it got me to thinking.

I just took a look at the Flyi.com site and noticed that their points expire after 12 months too :td: , but I did notice one thing that I thought was great: "And, when members earn an award in our program, there are no blackout dates limiting their use. If there is a seat available on a flight, it is available for award use." ^

Does JetBlue also give you any open seat like Indy; or is it like a Capital One comercial?

Data, I've used my rewards always on dates I wanted. Never once was I told No. I used one last year during Easter actually.

Data, I've used my rewards always on dates I wanted. Never once was I told No. I used one last year during Easter actually.

That is excellent.
I am new to this board so I don't know how many people have had the same experience, but I am glad to hear that you have had such seccess.
^

I've booked 2 True blue awards on the dates I wanted no problem as well. For all the crap that trublue takes, if you book 4 transcons online and then do 1 short hop you get a free flight. Its not THAT bad...yes I would love to see something in the Southwest mold , but its still decent.

Earnings skymiles is pointless for me as I never fly DL and dont fly Song enough to earn 50K miles. Id never use a 25K award on DL anyway.

Your right, if it was more like southwest it would be a bit better. I'd like to point out again that during the Q4 webconference they announced a co-branded credit card is coming to be linked to trueblue.

I've booked 2 True blue awards on the dates I wanted no problem as well. For all the crap that trublue takes, if you book 4 transcons online and then do 1 short hop you get a free flight. Its not THAT bad...yes I would love to see something in the Southwest mold , but its still decent.


You still get a far better value with the legacy carriers' FF programs.

For example, if you're a frequent flyer on AA (Platinum or EXP status so more than 50,000 flown miles per year) here's what those four transcons and short hop will get you:

JFK-LAX is 2475 miles each way, so you'd earn 4950 base miles roundtrip.

4950 * 4= 19,800 base miles
100% elite bonus = 19,800 bonus miles
1000 * 4 = AA.com 1000-mile online booking bonus for each r/t

43,600 redeemable miles for those four transcons.

Add a short hop (such as LGA-BUF which AA now flies) with the 500-mile per segment minimum miles:

500*2 = 1000 base miles
100% elite bonus = 1000 bonus miles
AA.com booking bonus = 1000 bonus miles

This adds 3,000 miles for a grand total of 46,600 redeemable miles....which can get you three free shorthaul domestic coach tickets (for flights less than 750 mi). At the 50,000 mile level (just one more paid short hop and you're there), you can redeem a free coach ticket to Europe, two free longhaul domestic coach tickets, or a free longhaul first class domestic ticket---all of which require 50,000 miles.

On JetBlue you'd just get a single free domestic ticket for all that flying.

I realize that the in-flight experience in coach on JetBlue is superior to that on the legacy carriers, but TrueBlue needs to be more competitive by better recognizing the loyalty (and $$$) of frequent flyers, with opportunities to earn awards faster the more you fly. B6 is a great airline for once-a-year leisure flyers, but the frequent flyer program is severely lacking.

Your right to an extent. Your free award ticket on TrueBlue is CAN be used internationally (or as B6 puts it, trans-oceanic) to Nassau, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic etc. There is no limits on your reward ticket. Now, booking a ticket from LGA-BUF will cost you on jetblue $140. On AA its either $200 or $270 depending on your desiered departure time. Would you pay the extra $60 or $130 to earn a simple 2000 miles? I, personally, would not. Also would not because I am a NYer and LGA is SOO not the airport of choice.

Now to be fair, compare TrueBlue to AAA domestically only, as JB doesn't fly to Europe. Talking domestically, with the flight ranges of B6 and AA, either way your still earning just 1 (long haul) reward ticket after those 4 transcons. If you were to use them on a short hop, you could still have enough for 1 long haul, there's the only benefit- you can obtain a JFK-BUF and a JFK-LGB on the miles system.

However like i posted here before, B6 Announced a co-branded credit card coming soon. Then I think things will be-a-changing

46,600 redeemable miles....which can get you three free shorthaul domestic coach tickets (for flights less than 750 mi). .

aa shorthual awards are a limited-time only promo; all travel must be completed by monday.

also, a domestic f award is only 45k (too steep relative to y imo), not 50k

You didn't factor in the cost of flying those 50,000 miles (to get you PLT or EXP) on AA rather than B6 in order to get the 100% bonus that you used in your calculation. How much do you save taking B6 versus AA for 10 transcon round-trips (50,000 miles)? Especially if you need a walk-up fare, or need to change a few tickets?

It is amazing how much free publicity jetblue gets. If you read yesterday's Ny times, you saw the large article in the business about Jetblue. They showed graphs how their fares are still lower then all the others transcon. This is why jetblue is so much more recognized than Song. In fact, i have seen one commercial for Song last year and i saw a sign in Greenwich Village. Jetblue has the reputation and name that Song doesn't.