MilesBuzz! - FlyerTalk should become a competitor of Points.com

There's a thread in here about Points.com and it has this long post I just made about how much I think that company stinks. Some agree with me wholeheartedly and so may not agree, but one thing is for sure:

People want the ability to trade and transfer points. We all want that option to exist and right now, it may be true that Points.com is the biggest or the only place to do this kind of thing. I think they botch it big time, and they also abuse their position. That's my take and my passionate post in that other thread tells you why. So does my web link I have listed at the bottom of this post, which I suggest people take a look at when considering this post. Points.com has fees to do transfers and they have partners with whom people can move points or miles or even Ebay points around in their own worlds. You can read more in other threads or even in the company's own site. Some don't mind fees and some do. That's actually not even my main complaint with the organization, but whatever you think about those fees, the way they handle them, or their overall service and delivery, I think this:

They need to have competition. I am only one guy so maybe WE need to become it!

Most large entities do need this in the overall business landscape, or there will be problems down the line for the customers and partners, and of course, with the quallity of business itself.

So I ask this question to the gurus and moderators who run FlyerTalk and who use it the most:

Can FlyerTalk somehow BECOME a better version of Points.com?

Can WE somehow create and nurture whatever realtionships are necessary to do point and mile transfers with the hotels and airlines? Consider the good that comes out of Coupon Connection, but with a twist. Maybe another sub-area of the FT that requires certain factors in order to partake, but something that allows for business transactions that WE trust adn feel more comfortable in carrying out without being held hostage to any outside entity that, in my strong and well documented opinion, does not really take care of its people so nicely...

I would gladly pay for such a service offered by some faction of this forum. We really need a new and better way.

Thoughts?

(Well, now, as with the old gift card gigs, there are TWO threads. I think the subject deserves it though).

thanks.

:)MM
www.theothersideoftraveling.com
(Site not yet 100% finished but a lot of good stuff in there to ponder first!)

I agree with you. I had some points that never appeared. I have called ,written letters, and e-mails. Everyone you speak with or recieve and e-mail back says we are checking into it. Still no points. It has been 6 months. I don't think I will ever see them.

If Randy and his group of enterprises expanded into competition with Point.com, I'd be one of their frist customers. The devaluations are out of line at Points.com.

Heck, I am so eager to see something like this happen that I would be ready and willing to PAY PAL like $100 of my own money just to shore up the start up of such a company/entity!

If others did the same, we could someday reap a tiny benefit and then continue being normal customers of this would-be great service!

Who'd be into that sort of thing?

:)MM

Well, I think it would take more than $100.

Points.com is actually in a bit of a tough business. They're a points exchange, making some money on the 'spread' between currencies when executing exchanges.

But they're also in the business of providing point purchase and transfer solutions to various loyalty programs. I don't know which is a bigger revenue item for them, but I'd guess they couldn't survive on transfers alone.

Plus the key in all of this is the delicate relationship with all of the programs themselves. Not anyone can simply get into this game.

Besides, Randy is still listed on the Board of Advisors at MilePoint, which was acquired by (?) Points.com.

Update: Indeed, Points.com acquired MilePoint earlier in the year
http://www.integratir.com/newsrelease.asp?news=2130827681&ticker=T.PTS&lang=EN&title=null

indeed, a hundred bucks is nothing but what if every FTer were willing to do up something like that combined?
I dunno. I know Points.com is big but... well, you've probably read the rest of my stuff on this subject.

Either way, there seems to be the need for a better way.

and yes, I use milepoint and the dinosaur has taken them over. I guess I still use what I don't like... Can I escape or must I suffer thru it and just hope for the best? Oooh, I hate hostage loyalty marketing!

First off, I don't think points.com is the culprit for those missing points. But other parties involved... :mad:

Secondly, what evidence do you have that Points.com is making much on their transactions? Points.com can only offer points based on what airlines are willing to PAY OUT for the points transfered out of their programs. If an airline is not willing to offer much to points.com, how can they offer their customers much in return? Everything I have seen supports the airlines not willing to give third parties much in exchange for points. Whenever you use miles for something other than travel, you don't get a good return. Why? The airlines aren't willing to pay out very much per point!

Given this reality, a competitor would not be able to offer much better exchange ratios between programs. The airlines don't want you to be able to.

Why would AA would you to be able to use your AA miles on UA, etc?

Well, to some extent we see very, very good value (usually 1:1) exchanges on Coupon Connection. Go there now and I bet you'll see at least three posts on the main page offering 25K or 50K on one program for equivalent mileage on another program. Usually this only works in big chunks because you're essentially ticketing an award for eachother, but its the best value in exchanging around and matches supply and demand with pretty much 100% success from what I see on CC.

I think that instead of building a competing firm to points.com there is a lot of potential and room to improve the exchange mechanism on Coupon Connection. However, FT is always kind of teetering on the edge with CC because the exchanges therein are usually beyond the pale of the T&Cs of the FF programs. I'm not sure Randy would be crazy about formalizing it more...

So yeah - it sucks that I can't exchange my 13K US miles for 5K NW miles somehow, but for larger blocks trading on CC seems to works pretty well.

peace,
~Ben~

Flyertalk is a community, not a corporation.

Why don't you start this company ? I'm sure it would work out.
Think of the recruiting possibilities - Hire a Flyertalker! ;)

Flyertalk is a community, not a corporation.

Why don't you start this company? I'm sure it would work out.
Think of the recruiting possibilities - Hire a Flyertalker! ;)

The Marathon Man is not really in the position to start up a business at this point in life but I do thank you for your suggestion. I mean, I couldn’t really start UP a business right now but would certainly be a good senior person within such a thing. Furthermore, in such a bold business, we would certainly need someone who could do an analysis to prove this kind of risk/task could bring home some bacon. Maybe the FT "owners" might say that too, but because of the fact they ARE a giant, well-known forum containing many eager members and countless archived data on FLYING and MILES, I think they would be able to pull that off with a higher degree of success from the get-go than would someone like the lone little old Marathon Man. I also figured that if I had to weigh the abilities and capacities of myself going it alone right now against the collaborative positioning and overall reputation of something like FT, then FT would be a far better choice for obvious reasons at this point and time.

And yes, later on, they could possibly "hire" US to help out with some of the “point-related "what if" scenerios” work.

If a business venture of this nature was not for FT as it is right now, then maybe some offshoot that was backed by, started from out of, or inspired by the higher ups that run FT and seem to do a pretty darn good job as far as organizations are concerned. I also think that the concept of having some small business bubble or entity of FT within the grand scheme of things we have all already come to enjoy and trust would be a good idea. Ft could remain what it is, but have some small other thing that it could oversee or help start up so guys like me could work in it or run it or others like you could do that too. The masses could then do mile transfers with better accountability than what has been revealed to many of us from the likes of Points.com.

Not anyone can simply get into this game.

Besides, Randy is still listed on the Board of Advisors at MilePoint, which was acquired by (?) Points.com.

Update: Indeed, Points.com acquired MilePoint earlier in the year
http://www.integratir.com/newsrelease.asp?news=2130827681&ticker=T.PTS&lang=EN&title=null

So does that mean we can now ”press” Randy to ask POINTS.COM why they don’t give the points or missing miles to all these bummed out FT people who are having huge problems getting that company's Customer Service to answer back?

Maybe Randy, as a board member with a bit of mile-related clout, should be asked by all of us FT members who support his claim to fame to do us all a big favor when he has a chance to do it:

If he can tighten a few screws on his constituents over in Toronto, maybe Points.com would figure out they are doing wrong to one of their own! I have already suggested to many that the company do away with some of its current management and actually start doing what it promises! It does fail to do this though, and that just plain stinks!

For example, I give you one Lissa Romano, the Customer Service manager who went on 2--count 'em, 2 vacations during the 5-month period between the end of the AA/EBay Anything/Points.com promo and the end of November of this year. All of this time, we were all waiting patiently for miles that were supposed to post from the partnership ring that Points.com managed and were getting nowhere fast. In that 5 month period, those who are familiar with the enormous AA thread involving the multiple partnerships fought tooth and nail for months on end to get the points from things they signed up for. Points.com had continuously failed to return emails or calls from several of their patiently waiting customers. Everyone passed the buck. Later, Lissa's boss Michael actually told me in a live phone call (after I was able to track this guy down and hound him) that he would no longer return customer calls on the issue of those missing points because he thought SOME people scammed someone somewhere... He was also overwhelmed with over 100 of these customers. You do the math but if each one is missing say, 3,000 points, then what does that tell you about how the company makes its profits? Again, SOMEONE or SOMETHING needs to take a bit of this whole points and transfers marketshare away from these people! It is THEY who are the scammers! We just do what the partnership promos say and hope our points eventually show up as promissed. They do not. Who do you complain to when the directors of CS are blowing you off too?

First off, I don't think points.com is the culprit for those missing points. But other parties involved... :mad:


Many of the partnerships in the above deal stemmed from ebay anything points, a division of the hard-to-speak-live-to ebay. With the help of several others, I did run the gauntlet and actually speak to the bloke who ran the show over there, Mr Scott Menken. Over a far less amount of time than this silly 5 months as stated above, he and I emailed excel sheets back and forth and the number people missing points was reduced to only a few at the very end. In fact, his part was done. He did put the screws to some of the partners that the Ebay site had under its umbrella and they facilitated the points for the customers who participated. Scott and I tracked it and I kept asking who was still missing what. He talked to points.com but actually got the runaround himself! Eventually the ONLY remaining cog was the part where people are supposed to exchange points for AA miles. This part is what Points.com did in the multi-partnered scheme, but they did it poorly. They did many of these transfers after being asked to again and again, but only very slowly. They spoke professionally but were hard pressed to actually deliver without being constantly prodded to do so. Again, to this day, several people are still missing points from them, and did not receive any more emails or call backs when they asked what to do next. We went from about 100 to about 3-5 people, so it ain’t bad considering the numbers, but it took 5 freakin' months and those 5 people are STILL people--who post IN Randy's forum!

Heck, if Points.com were my business I would at least try to let those people know I am still alive trying to help them--that is, before dropping their ball and going out to scam some new suckers in my dealings! I would have also paid guys like me who helped fix the problems of the other 95 ‘mis-pointed’ people. I know of more who have lost out of that company from similar dealings and so the numbers continue to grow. Lissa and Michael, like many bad managers, are STILL working there. But where are YOUR points today?

Would Randy help us?
Would anyone who is in the position to do so help us?
Give me the means... maybe I DO have to go at it. I'll surely need some big help!

:)MM

I had suggested in this thread last week that maybe RANDY, since he is on the Board of Milepoint which is now part of Points.com, could help people who are missing points from Points.com get those missing points.

Gleff said:

Not anyone can simply get into this game.

Besides, Randy is still listed on the Board of Advisors at MilePoint, which was acquired by (?) Points.com.

Update: Indeed, Points.com acquired MilePoint earlier in the year
http://www.integratir.com/newsrelea...g=EN&title=null

I said:
So does that mean we can now ”press” Randy to ask POINTS.COM why they don’t give the points or missing miles to all these bummed out FT people who are having huge problems getting that company's Customer Service to answer back?

Maybe Randy, as a board member with a bit of mile-related clout, should be asked by all of us FT members who support his claim to fame to do us all a big favor when he has a chance to do it:

If he can tighten a few screws on his constituents over in Toronto, maybe Points.com would figure out they are doing wrong to one of their own! I have already suggested to many that the company do away with some of its current management and actually start doing what it promises! It does fail to do this though, and that just plain stinks!

It is proven that miles can fail to post and when that happens, it is not always user (customer) error. Here is another example from my latest post in this thread:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3466805

what should we do about this stuff? maybe Randy has answers? Can it at least be addressed by guys with his level of industry experience?

Thanks!
:)MM

I don't know if Points.com board of advisors is the same as a corporate board, but if it it is, it seems to me that Randy would actually be ethically if not legally obligated to make decisions as a board member that enhance the value of points.com's shareholders. Obviously, keeeping the customers happy is part of maintaining and enhancing the value of points.com, but it does not imply that a company should necessarily cut their margins on their products or services beyond what the market requires.

If you think Points.com is making out like bandits, buy some of their stock. If, on the other hand, their returns are average or sub-par, it probably implies that the service they provide is fairly valued. I don't personally know how Points.com is doing, but the travel industry as a whole has NOT had a great record the last several years and I would not be looking to sink a big chunk of change in a new venture.

They appear to be a "nonprofit" organization:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041110/105283_1.html ;)

The company that I work for is owned by another firm. I do recruiting for marketing and design/web professionals in the Boston area.

If someone told me that something was wrong or out of place, I would most certainly be more in the position to bring this to the attention to the higher ups, and I certainly would. I am just a recuriter. The message would get to the top and would get to the top of the parent firm as well. that is how we are set up and yet, I am one of the newest ones here. Our company allows for such things anyway--so as to improve the overall business. Maybe that is the dif between us and places like Points.com. Maybe the suggestions dont get thru or maybe they get dealt with slower than one would imagine, but they get made all the time by people like me and others at all levels.

Points.com could very easily listen to someone like Randy. Whether he is on one board there or another. they sure have more connections availabel than you and I do to the head people!

This is not even about their money or the fees to transfer miles that they put forth. This is about taking care of business and the customers who already paid them. This post is not about investing or profits. It is about doing the right freakin' thing.

This is about maintaining data, showing accountability for transactions and doing what was promissed. There are many customers I know of who have had some serious problems with missing points or ones that failed to transfer. THAT is where we need someone --anyone with any level of foot in the door--to try to suggest that the company simply does what is right! I am not talking about huge slashes in its marketing budget or ways to slow down its profitability, unless, of course, they are PLANNING on this sort of thing and actually factor it in as a way to MAKE money. That would be very wrong. I am not sure what they do nor do I really care to find out right now, but what I do hope for is that someone--anyone--comes along and finds a better way, and in the meantime, tries to straighten these guys out!

people are missing points.
plain and simple. FIX IT!

Randy is the one in the best position to get that message thru. I am in less of a position. My suggestion was that he could bring this one up. Maybe he could use some of the postings from here as examples. If asked, I bet tons of people with missing point issues from points.com or like points.com would come foward. If not, I will find them and give a list. I still have many of the names from that FT thread on the AA forum.

Why do I get the feeling this fixing thing I suggest is NOT something anyone wants to think about?

I was hoping Randy or someone else could try to help make it an issue to clear up overall.

:)MM

Have you posted your concerns in Randy's forum where he's more likely to read them (didn't see it there) or emailed him directly? I'm sure he doesn't read every post in this forum.

Have you posted your concerns in Randy's forum where he's more likely to read them (didn't see it there) or emailed him directly? I'm sure he doesn't read every post in this forum.

good call. I am going to find it (didnt even really realize there was one) and also, maybe if some moderator in this forum happens to see this post and beat me to iit, that would save me the time.

Thanks!
He should read this stuff.
:)MM

The company that I work for is owned by another firm. I do recruiting for
I was hoping Randy or someone else could try to help make it an issue to clear up overall.

:)MM


If Randy isnt answering you - there is probably a reason

There will never be a significant exchange method for FF miles between programs at good exchange rates. The programs are simply not going to cooperate with any kind of program which attempts to make the points in all programs fungible commodities. If the points of each airline were fungible, the traveler would lose all incentive to stick with his favorite FF program carrier. The traveler would simply take the best flight (whether times, or non-stop, or cheapest price) and transfer the points back into his favorite currency. Thus, I don't think you will ever see a new point exchange enterprise enter the picture which offers anything significantly different that the current offerings of points.com. Making the points readily exchangeable with other points would reduce a traveler's incentive to stick with the program, and would dilute the very reason these loyalty programs exist.

Djlawman

If Randy isnt answering you - there is probably a reason

gee, I am so really hoping that's because he's so busy that he needs lots of time to get to it, and not because he would just blow it off completely. That would be so....
points.com of him?
I seriously doubt Randy is of the same ilk. I will wait and see but if you have further insight, go ahead and put it out there.

Anyway, my main reason for trying to see if a competitor of them could exist is not because of reducing fees or trying to screw up people's loyalties to airlines, rather, it is to make them start to feel the pressure of competition. This action alone would make them feel the need to be a bit more accountable when it comes to posting people's missing miles!

THAT is my main concern. I want to see points.com carry thru with its promises and give the miles to all of us who have missing ones. Their CS sucks. Competition or pressure from someone in their own company or on the board would help rout this major error. It affects us all, ya know!

:)MM

I grant that there might be a ton of details to work out, but Marathon Man's idea is a good one. I believe something like what he proposes would find a lot of FT support and I look forward to further discussion. Thanks, MM, for floating this idea.

sorry, i was out last week doing this gig:
http://www.webflyer.com/liveflyer/seal.php

and then had to come in this weekend and now to close on the next issue of InsideFlyer. while not a true all-nighter, mucho hours the past few days. Will chime in on this thread when my mind clears after deadline - perhaps Wed or Thursday.

I think MM's idea is a good one from the consumer standpoint - but not profitable from the business standpoint simply because point.com isn't making much so a competitor splitting the market isn't going to do well profit wise.

I don't think point.com could have a high profit margin based the airlines lack of willingness to may much $$ out for their miles. If someone shows I am wrong on this, then giving points.com competition would be a great business idea.

I am just hoping SOMEONE can look into ways to make what exists become better for all. I am starting to find that many companies have figured out this strange and unfortunate dynamic:

that which is good for the customer is not good for business--as it stands these days, what, with a down economy.

BUT, I think in the long run, it SURE IS, and that, my friends, may be the very thing needed to bring back the good times!

I think the policies and errors of points.com is going to cost them down the line. That's bad for biz also. FT could do something like this with less of a concern on merely turning a profit on the transfer itself. Instead, it could run it in such a way where membership to that particular part of the specialized forum could have some sort of costs or fees associated with it that many of us would gladly pay.

Well, We will wait and se eif Randy can come up witha few cool idea on this one. I would love to offer my help or ideas where needed. My site link, www.theothersideoftraveling.com has a whole bunch of things describing what can go wrong, that's for sure.

:)MM

The programs are simply not going to cooperate with any kind of program which attempts to make the points in all programs fungible commodities.

Exactly - I've been getting beaten up for years on these boards by stating the same thing. The goal of the airlines' FF programs is to issue as many as they can (revenues) while doing everything in their power to limit redemptions (costs).

While there are ways to legally convert miles to cash through these exchange programs, the cash value is incredibly low (around 1/2 cent). That is the "floor value" of a mile. Any value that the holder wants to get above that requires them to play the airline's game. Why would an airline want to raise the "floor value" of the mile and make their game less relevant?

It's a nice racket that the participating airlines are playing with points.com - their customers merely trade miles back and forth between their programs and points.com siphons off 50-90% of the value with each exchange. What a deal!

[For those who do not know ways to legally convert to cash, one simple example would be airline miles -> eBay Anything points -> PayPal acct -> checking acct]

I think djlaw has it exactly right.

Keep in mind a few realities:

First of all, the market for a product like this is very small. Most people don't really understand how miles work, and they don't seem to be interested enough in them to spend a lot of time trading them.

Second, the purpose of miles (by those who issue them); namely, to encourage brand loyalty. If there was a successful system (and it certainly appears that points.com is not one of those) that was developed, a couple things would/could happen:

1) The airline would change the rules in a manner that we would not appreciate. Think of a rule that said that you could only redeem your miles for yourself and immediate family...or just yourself.

2) The airline gets rid of miles altogether. Think about it. If the means to encourage brand loyalty is not accomplishing that, and is, as djlaw said, completely fungible, the airline has no incentive to issue them any longer.

Finally, consider what you really want to do. You're wanting to buy a sandwich at Subway, and trade your subway club stamps for a quizno's sandwich. It's just counterintuitive.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it, to the detriment of all.

I think djlaw has it exactly right.

Keep in mind a few realities:

First of all, the market for a product like this is very small. Most people don't really understand how miles work, and they don't seem to be interested enough in them to spend a lot of time trading them.

Second, the purpose of miles (by those who issue them); namely, to encourage brand loyalty. If there was a successful system (and it certainly appears that points.com is not one of those) that was developed, a couple things would/could happen:

1) The airline would change the rules in a manner that we would not appreciate. Think of a rule that said that you could only redeem your miles for yourself and immediate family...or just yourself.

2) The airline gets rid of miles altogether. Think about it. If the means to encourage brand loyalty is not accomplishing that, and is, as djlaw said, completely fungible, the airline has no incentive to issue them any longer.

Finally, consider what you really want to do. You're wanting to buy a sandwich at Subway, and trade your subway club stamps for a quizno's sandwich. It's just counterintuitive.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it, to the detriment of all.

agreed, in part. Again, I am trying to make something happen that forces points.com to stay loyal to its customer and play fairly!

it does not right now. I would rather not have them around as a trade off.

as for mile to cash systems, I get burnt out on the corruption that I see taking place in these airline partnership schemes the marketers come up with. I mean, nowadays it's not about customer loyalty, it's all about companies abilitiy to steal or hijack one's loyalty! It's guerilla marketing and near scamming that makes us "stay" with a company! We have no choice! They have our money or miles or info and so we have to use it or lose it! We have to use those 15,000 miles here or those 4000 points there or else they will expire or something. We have to find ways to transfer that 20k miles to someone else because they will become worthless since that amount is no longer enough points to fly... Things like that.

As for airlines that have poor redemption rules, I give you British Airways and their household accounts, or Singapore Airlines where you actually have to pay to change the limited names your account can have to fax in a form to nominate who is authorized to use your miles!

Places like points.com that allow you to transfer miles is a good thing, but the way they do it is not so good. This is because they will often drop the ball and things will go wrong with your request. I think transferring miles wont cause a breakdown in the system in itself, but if they dont fix their errors, that will cause a breakdown in the system.

I dunno, i tried to fix this but am too tired to type.
!MM

agreed, in part. Again, I am trying to make something happen that forces points.com to stay loyal to its customer and play fairly!

it does not right now. I would rather not have them around as a trade off.

as for mile to cash systems, I am often so burnt out on the corruption that I see take place in these airline partnership schemes the marketers come up with, that I get a bit underworld on them. I mean, nowadays it's not customer loyalty, it's stolen or hijacked loyalty! It's guerilla marketing and near scamming that makes us "stay" with a company! We have no choice! They have our money or miles or info and so we have to use it or lose it!

As for airlines that have poor redemption rules, I give you British Airways and their household accounts, or Singapore Airlines where you actually have to pay to change the limited names your account can have to fax in a form to nominate who is authorized to use your miles!

It has already begun. My plan and the transfer deals of points.com didnt start the fire... But since they built and maintained their game so poorly, it will be the likes of them that helps bring the whole shootin' match down some day, I think!

!MM


What? :confused:

sorry, squeazed too much into one post.


re read it from another angle.

re read it from another angle.

I tried, but now my neck hurts :(

;)

alright, sorry again, I actually typed this so fast whilst trying to get some actual office work done, and then just now, I tried to type edits to it and it still sucks. So sorry about being a bone head there.

Anyway, here is my point (no pun intended):

some may believe that the service of points.com having its ability to transfer miles will eventually cause some problems that could lead to the end of miles as we know them.

Does that statement make sense?

Well, I could see how that could happen, but I think the main issue is HOW they allow transfer, not whether they do or not.

My thinking is this: if points.com allows these transfers and makes money, that's fine, but please, I beg that they do them right and be fair about it. Some airlines like singapore or BA already have strict rules on who can use an award ticket and that is sad. This could be because they had so many problems with transfer issues or award abuse. We wouldnt want all the other airlines to have these strict rules too, and so if points.com transfers starts to cause problems for the airlines, then we would be in trouble and mile awards as we know them would essentially cease to exist.

If points.com has lots of problems when it comes to fixing issues that customers have, or posting points late and having people complain to them about that sort of thing, then that action in itself may cause some ripples in their system. If these ripples are seen by airlines to be corrupt or widely problematic, then they would want to pull the plug. Ultimately, within the entire process of transferring points, we would have new rules we would hate.

So if we could fix points.com or if we could have some competition to their model, then maybe all of this stuff would just get better, not worse. You see, if they had some competition, this would give them incentive to fix their own issues.

Does that help?
Need coffee. Long day at the office.
:)MM

Now that I think about it, we should forget about all of this transferability after the fact. I think the best response by an educated consumer is to first determine their FF goals (free first class intl travel vs. lots of free domestic trips, free high-end hotel rooms, etc) and then tailor a strategy to get where they need to go.

For example, since I like to go on last-minute domestic trips at least once a month, I try to maximize my free, unrestricted plane tickets while minimizing my hotel costs (I'll admit it - I'm a tightwad). To accomplish that, I:

1. Fly Southwest frequently
2. Get Southwest credits when renting cars
3. Use my Diners Club/Southwest Visa for expenses and transfer points into Southwest credits
4. Achieve a Companion Pass at 100+ credits every year
5. When I have to fly another airline, save up and launder 50,000 UA or AA miles -> 50,000 DC points -> 2 Southwest round-trip tickets (see #4)
6. For business trips, use Priceline (+eBay rebate) and/or discounted hotel gift certificates purchased on eBay (since it's my money, I value $$$ over hotel points)
7. For personal trips, use Priceline exclusively to stay at 3* and 4* hotels for $40-$80/night

Some people may prefer to save up for that $15,000 round-the-world First Class seat. I prefer to get value in smaller chunks more frequently.

If you stay focused on a strategy, you shouldn't feel the need to have to transfer miles and points all over the place at horrific discounts.

good idea but when you are at 45k miles and you need only 5k more, the ability to quickly transfer from some family member or friend can be valuable if you need to fly NOW.

That person could have either overshot or somehow decided to give up on overall collection and their miles are just sitting there doing nothing. One good thing Points.com did do was to convince the airlines there is some sort of market there...

I still have lots of friends who have hobbies other than miles (gasp!) who know very little about how to manage their old accounts with 5,000 here or 14k there...21,432 here, 24,999 there...

Good thing for referrals and idine too!
I praise the transfer concept and yet, it must be well managed to really be helpful to people and companies involved.

You can't feel pity for your friends who are ignorant of how the system works. It's like anything else - finance, shopping, real estate, etc. If you want to get the good deals, you have to do a little homework.

In your example, a Diners Club or AmEx would fit the bill nicely - transfer over 5k miles and you are there!

What I find appalling are all of the poorly-capitalized "quasi"-miles/points programs that can and do close up shop all the time, stranding everyone's points.

MM,

I think you missed the point of my post:

If a truly successful enterprise was established that allowed people to move points around easily, trade them, etc. then the airlines would do something.

They're designed to reward loyalty. If there's no loyalty, they have no incentive to give something away for free.

You're looking at this only from a consumer's perspective. While, as a consumer, it would be nice to be able to trade and move miles around, as a rational human being, I can see that it is not in an airline's interest for me to be able to do so. Do you get that?

Like I said, be careful what you wish for. If someone figured out an easy way to effectively barter/trade/move miles, the airlines would undoubtedly move to prevent it from occuring, and the only possible outcomes I can think of under that scenario are decidedly negative for the consumer.

Try thinking long term.

I'm debating whether to continue posting in these threads, because I'm starting to think that MM is a characature or plant or something. The truly off-the-wall comments and constant references to "corruption" and acting like it's an us vs. them thing are almost too bizarre to believe.

MM,

I think you missed the point of my post:

If a truly successful enterprise was established that allowed people to move points around easily, trade them, etc. then the airlines would do something.

They're designed to reward loyalty. If there's no loyalty, they have no incentive to give something away for free.

You're looking at this only from a consumer's perspective. While, as a consumer, it would be nice to be able to trade and move miles around, as a rational human being, I can see that it is not in an airline's interest for me to be able to do so. Do you get that?

Like I said, be careful what you wish for. If someone figured out an easy way to effectively barter/trade/move miles, the airlines would undoubtedly move to prevent it from occuring, and the only possible outcomes I can think of under that scenario are decidedly negative for the consumer.

Try thinking long term.

I'm debating whether to continue posting in these threads, because I'm starting to think that MM is a characature or plant or something. The truly off-the-wall comments and constant references to "corruption" and acting like it's an us vs. them thing are almost too bizarre to believe.

heelaw you are coming through loud and clear and yes, I had missed your point, or some of it.

Yes, if something too easily allowed people to move points around easily, then the airlines would start to think twice about what is going on out there. This would have an affect on the entire loyalty scheme. But it doesn’t have to be all negative.

as a consumer, I am seeing it more one-sided right now, but I am sure the business of those who would trade miles at points.com has been well thought out so it can make money for both the airlines and the points.com company. Why cant there be 2 points.com companies? I like transferring miles but I am not saying I MUST have that around to be happy. And I am not saying it has to be so available that it should wipe out the entire concept of loyalty programs as we know them.

I am suggesting that if there were 2 points.com entities--or, maybe FT can come up with a version of it that we can better trust and work with, this action would actually help airlines and customers.

I think if there are more than one entity that performs a service, then this fosters competition. And with competition, come price adjustments, marketing ideas and more deals that could make more people more money. Also, it inherently attempts to out do the other guy by providing a better service for the customer. In the end, thru competition, points.com and its competitor would have a higher level of service that we would all enjoy, no matter what they provide. That's the theory, at least.

Right now there is only one points.com. It makes mistakes. I am sorry you feel reluctant to post or be involved with things because I use the word corruption here. Things don’t post and that bugs me, and others. Things that don’t post from points.com cause problems. People like me try to get them to fix it or we have to email and call them a lot to get answers. They often blow us off or cannot help. They put the onus on us. They fail. They therefore ruin some of the very business they create and no one is holding them accountable. There is no competitor that makes them “feel” as if they should watch out or else someone else will take their business over. the partner airlines don’t care either. Points.com continues to do its thing, and some of it is good, but in doing it the way I have just described above, they are the ones ruining this sort of thing for airlines, not me. Their actions, if not held in check, will cause problems that will make airlines wary of doing any such things and then we will see changes that could be negative.

I do not pretend to have it all figured out, nor do I pretend to be an expert logician or expert writer who knows all about the mile trading business, but I do know that this company does often practice in such a way that can be seen by many as corrupt. That shouldn’t make me anything but someone who is bothered by it. Why is it so hard to understand this?

Have you never lost a mile?

When you do, and you fight to get it credited to your account, you will see what I mean. I litterally had to fight tooth and nail to get to the people who run points.com and ebay anything points all fall because over 100 people, myself included, were missing an average of 5,000 miles a piece! Tell me what that looks like to you? Yep, believe it! Bizzare or not, it happened, right here in FT. And every time miles fail to post and people have to suffer thru the pains of getting them back, it down right stinks. Savvy or not, experienced or not, this stuff happens to customers and that does eventually hurt the business too. And when it happens to someone who is NOT in the know, it's almost a crime-especially if it seems as though that business has no reason to give a crap about that poor person! It makes a guy like me upset, and you have seen me post in other threads about ways that may not seem so above board to try to combat things like this. I aint saying I am always right, but you get the idea. What this sort of thing does to someone is kind of bizzare too, eh?

Well, a second points.com or FT version of it that we would all trust and enjoy, would really help, I think! That's what I am trying to say.

;)MM

Try thinking long term as well, my friend.
Don't leave this thread because you toy with the idea that I am ONLY some sort of us vs. them thinker, and nothing more. I think you have the abilities and passions to help make our work together in ventures like this come up with something really positive and forward thinking. I would look forward to working on challenges like this with you, not VS you (or anybody).

I agree with HeelLaw.. To protest that airlines make it difficult to trade or maximize usage out of their own miles is silly.. if you don't like how the game is played, then don't bother participating. It's their game, their rules, and their "monopoly money", so to speak. Enjoy what you can from earning/redeeming in loyalty programs (and there's plenty to reap, obviously)...

So if we could fix points.com or if we could have some competition to their model, then maybe all of this stuff would just get better, not worse. You see, if they had some competition, this would give them incentive to fix their own issues.

This sounds like a personal vendetta against Points.com .. hiding behind a pseudo-collective crusade against the "evils of point-trading companies".

I agree with HeelLaw.. To protest that airlines make it difficult to trade or maximize usage out of their own miles is silly.. if you don't like how the game is played, then don't bother participating. It's their game, their rules, and their "monopoly money", so to speak. Enjoy what you can from earning/redeeming in loyalty programs (and there's plenty to reap, obviously)...


This sounds like a personal vendetta against Points.com .. hiding behind a pseudo-collective crusade against the "evils of point-trading companies".

Wow, you are harsh and I get a funny feeling it is almost a game here!

I am thinking that either I am just not making my self 100% clear or people are not wanting to think further out on this particular issue...

I am NOT saying the airlines HAVE to allow transfers, and I am not saying they HAVE to make it so easy to play the game that a kid could do it or something like that.

Not at all.

I am saying that if THEY play the game, they should try to make it more consistent. They should do for you as they do for me. Providing I played--or performed the tasks as laid out in their system, then the action should take place as promissed. If there is a glitch or problem, then someone should be there in CS to help fix it. Why is this so freakin hard for some people in here to grasp? Do you never have this sort of issue in life?

Look, if your points dont post--whether thru some transfer or some other service the company offers, then we have a problem. Am I right?

It just so happens, that I found Points.com to have this problem a lot more than anyone else, and yes, I sure had to get into it more than most would in order to fix the issue! Several people--100+ in fact, were right there with me. What do you think we should have done? , And it's not like some sort of personal vendetta, rather, I am saying that if this kind of company is blatnatly causing such problems, then someone else should step up and make a better one!

I thought FT, with its might and clout, could actually BE such an entity. I WANT points.com and places like it to work. I want to do business with the likes of them. In fact, since the time of that Ft thread I mentioned, I have had to do transfers through them, and I have been very glad their service of transferring miles even exists!

When you have 45,000 miles in an airline that can fly you direct, and you find out you need to fly to Rome in 2 weeks, you might figure out that spending about $75 to transfer over a few thousand miles from a friend's account is going to be a lot more cost effective than anything else.

Points.com also has other services that have nothing to do with transfers, but in many cases, I have seen or experienced errors with them. Their customer service has not always come thru to help people in this situation and I have been witness to too many cases of this negative activity. I have used the service and would like to see it work, but I had a hard time trusting that everything would work out because my previous experience taught me that they are less likely to follow through IF there is a problem!

Example:
you tell me your gas station can do state inspections. So i come in and leave my car, take the train to work and come back to pick it up. I call first and someone tells me it's all ready. I already paid the fee to get my inspection because that's the law. (You have to pay upfront pass or fail). Then I come in to get my car after work and you tell me it is not done and you have no idea what someone told me on the phone. Your emmisions checking machine is broken today anyway, and you cannot do the inspection. Ok, so I ask you to do it tomorrow when you say your inspection and emmisions equipment are going to be working again.

you say OK. I leave, I come back because I already paid you the fee.
Same thing happens the next day.

What, am I some sort of loser just because your gas station sucks? I should go to another gas station.
But is there one?
Not in the case of Points.com

geesh!

the other thing I wanted to add is this:
I cannot really prove to you that I would do a better job in my own points company, because I dont have one. I sure think I could do abetter job though and I think a better job can be doneby many people who happen to be in this market. I think if I ran such a company I would try to not burn or blow off my customers. I would certainly try to make money, but in doing so, I would try to address issues surrounding problems when points fail to post. I think if FT had such a company or entity set up within its own world (and I do not know how that would be done, but maybe it is possible) then it would probably do a much better job than Points.com. That's because FT is made up of many people who are savvy about points and mile issues, and these people generally know what they are looking for or how to choose what to avoid.

Look, Points.com may be like a gun, and maybe guns are not for everybody to play around with, but guns that misfire are no good for anybody; experienced or otherwise! I strongly believe that the FT gun would probably be designed a lot better, don't you agree? It is made up of people who know the hunting game! I think Randy may wish to examine this and consider making up something in here that creates a win-win for all of us. I would pay into that model if one were created as such.

How many angles must be shown to get this sort of thing across?

Would agree with the OP that points.com is a missed opportunity so far. Too greedy on conversion rates and fees, take it or leave it. I get sticker shock every time I read anything from them.

Would imagine that eBay is underwhelmed by performance there. I sell on said system and never once have I hard anything from buyers about Anything Points. It doesn't seem like the program has generated much excitement. Far better to just charge everything on the credit card through PayPal (though they don't want you to do that) and take points on the card's program.

Ebay's missing the boat on incentivizing but, like points.com, is basically a monopoly not feeling competitive pressure, so it'll probably drag its feet, too.

Just now catching upon this thread.

I guess what started this thread was issues with points.com's transaction processing and customer service. But like many here, the biggest obstacle preventing me from using them is the cost.

I'm curious about the idea of creating a competitor. Would you see competing at the wholesale level (fighting who gets to sign up the airlines, perhaps exclusively) or retail (both companies work with the same airlines, and consumers get to choose)?

Either way, it seems to me like a crappy business, but maybe that's just me projecting my "I'd never spend that much" attitude.

But I looked for more, and here's some of what I found.

Points.com is owned by Points International Ltd, which trades publicly on the Toronto Venture exchange (PTS.TO), and what I guessare ADR's on the US Pink Sheets (PTSEF.PK).

Latest stock price is 93 cents, and the market cap looks like about $50-60 million. Recent quarterly revenues were about $2M. Net loss was about $2M, with EBITDA loss about $1M.

IR Page: http://www.integratir.com/homepage.asp?ticker=t.pts
3Q04 results: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041110/105283_1.html

Some interesting nuggets:
- They claim "Strong recurring revenues, as 92% of Points.com's revenues were recurring". Not sure what this means, except that I'd guess that a large part of the revenues are coming from the travel companies and not consumers.
- In the quarter, Points powered the cumulative online exchange, sale and transfer of 6.5 billion points and miles.
- The [average] transaction size of each exchange increased to 18,041 points per exchange, up from 15,663 in the third quarter of 2003, and 15,060 in the prior quarter.

Finally, this:

In addition to ongoing efforts to establish additional partner relationships, the third quarter saw the company begin development on the next version of its consumer experience at the website www.points.com. In the second quarter of 2005, several significant changes to the Points.com consumer experience will be launched.

The company is working closely with its partners, and industry experts, on the development of the next version of the Points.com website, which represents a major enhancement in the relationship with both reward program partners and consumers. Today, the consumer interacts with a site that centers on a single feature: Exchange. The new Points.com website will broaden its offerings, and present each consumer with a personalized view of their reward program universe.

"As a result of this personalized view, Points.com will help consumers realize more value from their favorite programs, and "Get More Rewards, Faster(TM)". This is accomplished by adding new mile and point management tools such as ways to purchase and earn more miles or points in their favorite programs. In addition, the system will be driven by an Amazon-style associative relevance suggestion engine that will use the consumer's unique program, reward goals and point balance mix to suggest ways to use the earn, buy and exchange tools to "Get More Rewards, Faster(TM)", stated Mr. MacLean

The result of these changes is the evolution of Points.com to a "reward management portal", providing a more comprehensive and engaging consumer experience.

This reward program management utility will add new revenue streams to the Points.com business model, including a focus on subscription membership. Management anticipates accessing significant revenue streams from the additional functionality on the site.

Some interesting nuggets:
- They claim "Strong recurring revenues, as 92% of Points.com's revenues were recurring". Not sure what this means, except that I'd guess that a large part of the revenues are coming from the travel companies and not consumers.
:

They may mean annual membership fees, as this is about the only part of their business model they could reasonably call recurring? Great find by the way, thanks for posting it.

...or retail (both companies work with the same airlines, and consumers get to choose)?

I would have to go with the RETAIL version -- and I thank you, and the last couple of posters for the recent posts!

I think it could be a tough business to be in as well, but the fact that consumers have miles and feel the need to use them, it is true that they are looking for options to make that happen. Shere profit-based business does not necessarily have to be the only way to look at this. I bet if these were somehow structured differently, the costs for us would be a lot less. Points.com has been good for many, like myself, who wish to consolidate, but I am aware of the fact I am paying thru the nose to do it thru them. Turns out United Airlines now allows transfers of miles and the fee structure is basically the same, but the service that does it does not appear to be through Points.com. I may need to look deeper to learn who it is. But since both entities do charge the same basic fees, we need to (A) figure out why that's the going rate, and, (B) we need to figure out where savings can be had by watching the competition and the mistakes it has made.

From a business standpoint, I cannot see how any company can save you much more than a dollar here or $5 there if competing, but an almost non-profit organizational approach may actually work here...

Randy take note

FT could act as some sort of NP to go at all of this with a sort of watchdog or ombudsman-styled mission statement and would also inherently undercut a lot of prices in the market. Its relationships with the industry may actually help it do so! Also note: NPs don't have to make NO profits, they just structure certain things differently, etc.

Finally, as said in previous posts, if consumers had to choose evenly across the board between Coke, Pepsi, and, I dunno, RC Cola, then it would be the product value, company integrity, brand marketability, and customer service that would enable these customers to make their choice to buy and/or come back for more. I have been harping on Customer Service all along, because Points.com does not hvae very good CS.

:)MM

(Of course, with sodas you have to factor in taste, but with miles and points this may simply translate into that little inner smile you get when you do ANYTHING online involving the concept of future travel for yourself and how the activity on that site feels when clicking through! Very exciting indeed)