Canadian Airlines Plus - What should AA do to get CP domestic and/or transborder business away from AC?

I wrote to Mike Dunn at AA a few weeks ago about us CP frequent flyers being left behind as CP leaves the oneworld fold. The letter (I'll post if when I get back home) got sent down to a Bob Tighe(sp), AA's Managing Director of Canada Market Planning, who would like to discuss my (i.e., all of yours too) concerns. I will call him first to acknowledge I got his message and also let him know a wish list of frequent flyers will be compiled and sent to him.

Let's start posting the wish list (I'll start). Feel free to comment.


[This message has been edited by terenz (edited 06-19-2000).]

Kicking off, my suggestions are:

1) Reduced elite qualification requirements for Canadian members until a Canadian carrier joins oneworld/AA for qualifying

2) recruit a Canadian carrier to join oneworld or AA for qualifying


[This message has been edited by terenz (edited 06-20-2000).]

10. Restore F class fares/service to Canada, until such time as they have a true 3-class service
9. Have CIA replace David Colinette with a look alike manequin. (Note: already done)
8. More flights between Canadian cities and US hubs
7. Commission Trey Parker and Marc Shaiman to write new corporate theme song: "Blame Air Canada"
6. Code share with regional carriers in Canada, such as WestJet
5. Issue counterfeit Star Alliance credentials
4. Flights between major Canadian cities and more US cities (hubs primarily, but also places like LAX. YVR, for example, currently only has a few flights to DFW and 1 to JFK)
3. Whack-a-Milton arcade game
2. Free ticket between US and Canada with the purchase of a full fare ticket between Canada and the US, good only from/to ORD or JFK
1. Air-to-air missles

According to Guy Betsy (aka Celestar), AA has already bitten and dropped the qualification levels for Gold and Platinum for Canadian members. As for ExecPlat, doesn't look like they're budging.

I think the lowering of qualification levels for GOLD and PLATINUM will only work for those who are just joining them. For those of us who are already GLD or EXP on CP, it'll be very hard for us to start all over again flying at least 18K Q miles with no benefits at all. I think comp status is the way to go if they really wanted to grab some of CP or soon to be AC customers away.

Finding a way to start domestic routes within Canada is a must and increasing transborder flights to compete with AC is also a must in order to make AA attractive enough to make us switch over.

I'll add that

1) we have no way of crossing the Atlantic on a oneworld carrier and get miles unless we go trans-border and travel AA/IB/AY/EI with all the hassles of going through INS as well as a longer journey, and not to mention potentially *very* slow INS lines. As is, it's impossible to connect from Europe to Vancouver on the same day unless one buys a pricey ticket to get back from JFK-YVR (CX).

1a) Traveling through the U.S. to get to a 3rd country isn't attractive option due to possible long waits to get through the INS lines.

2) Lack of lounge access. I don't think there is a transborder lounge in Canada except at YYZ. Lounge service is also poorer vs. what we got at CP such as a lack of drinks (only tea/coffee/water is available as self-serve).

3) In business class, seating comfort is worse on AA than on AC and particularly CP. Only the promised beds on BA will compensate and we don't get miles for BA transatlantic.

4) Food service is almost non-existent on AA flights compared to CP flights.

Originally posted by terenz:
1) we have no way of crossing the Atlantic on a oneworld carrier and get miles unless we go trans-border and travel AA/IB/AY/EI with all the hassles of going through INS as well as a longer journey, and not to mention potentially *very* slow INS lines. As is, it's impossible to connect from Europe to Vancouver on the same day unless one buys a pricey ticket to get back from JFK-YVR (CX).

1a) Traveling through the U.S. to get to a 3rd country isn't attractive option due to possible long waits to get through the INS lines.

Wouldn't connections through JFK skip INS formalities ? I seemed to remember that JFK has sterlile transit environment. Speaking on behalf of YYZ, we need:

1) YYZ-JFK flights
2) NetsAAver fares from YYZ way more frequently. And if they're not going to offer YYZ the "connection" typed saver fares, then at least offer fares OTHER than ORD, when they actually do offer them (very seldom).

Hsi highlights a need for more flights to oneworld N. American international hubs.

Originally posted by hsi.chang:
Wouldn't connections through JFK skip INS formalities ? I seemed to remember that JFK has sterile transit environment.


Hsi

Have to ask but are there any JFK-Canada flights other than CX and AA's from YVR?

I speak for YVR on this. There are 2 YVR-JFK flights daily. The early one is the CX flight so no INS preclearance is available/required. It arrives in the one BA uses so one can get a connection to London. It makes for a long day of travelling though. Connections from Europe to Canada are good but of course one doesn't earn miles on the trans-Atlantic segments (if flown on BA). Not sure if it is possible to transfer between the two terminals w/o going through INS first.

The AA flight leaves slightly later (it was scheduled to feed/receive pax from CP's Asia flights and that relationship will end soon). It requires INS preclearance and I am not sure which JFK terminal it flies into (hopefully where all the AA Int'l flights leave/depart from). It leaves for YVR too early to make it a useful connector.

[This message has been edited by terenz (edited 06-20-2000).]

How about AAdvantage lets its Canadian members earn AA miles on the BA flights from Canada to Europe? It is just ridiculous that we have to fly to Europe via the US (i.e. AA metal) if we want to earn miles.


FewMiles..

Originally posted by terenz:
[BHave to ask but are there any JFK-Canada flights other than CX and AA's from YVR?[/B]

YUL-JFK, operated by AA Eagle

I am posting this here as well, since it responds to the above points as much as to the main premise on the other forum:

"And would you not expect U.S.-based members not to be pissed off?

"A bit of discretion is also at play, and if we Canadian members plaster every variance of AAdvantage offers onto these boards, in the end who can blame AA for not extending considerations in the future. (It may not be worth pissing off their U.S. members who have received no breaks, other than the Challenges, to get their elite status.) I believe AA has been quite generous in their offers to us to date so as to get our business and move us into becoming active AAdvantage members. (Particularly when most accrual is coming on oneworld partners, and not on paid AA flights.) But all I seem to read on these postings is .....ing that all thi still isn't enough!

"Sorry guys, but I have to depart from supporting your efforts for more, more, more. I find queue jumping is a distasteful activity, and we've had more than enough offers from AA to go to the head of the line. I realize Platinum is not like ExecPlat, but go out and earn the top tier and be appreciative of having been given a head start in the lineup to enjoy some perks while getting there.

"As to the some of the specifics:

1. U.S. lounges have always been membership affairs due to a ruling by the Justice Department back in the 60s. This is based on anti-discrimination, not corporate greed.

2. The serving of free alcohol is a policy set from airline to airline. AA charges, which is a fact of life.

3. Lounges exist where the volume of members will make them viable. AA doesn't have enough volume at most Canadian airports -- and is unlikely to for quite a while -- to justify such facilities, so they aren't here. If we did not have pre-clearance of U.S. customs/ immigration, then sharing with CX/BA/QF would be possible at more airports, and a oneworld lounge might become feasible.

"But, if you don't like these two realities, then get your oneworld lounge eligibility by earning Sapphire or Emerald levels on BA, CX or QF. That way you'll have lounge access on domestic AA (U.S.) flights too, and I believe two drinks coupons. (Yes, I know you will say one has to fly too many miles on higher fares: that's the price for such enhanced benefits. CP went broke giving us all those enhanced perks, not a way to run a business!)

4. There is "the Challenge" to get into the initial AA elite tiers on a fast-track basis. One trip across the Pacific to either HKG on CX or SYD on QF will get you Gold. Add a bit of domestic AA activity (afterall they are the ones making the offers) and you reach Platinum, and qualify after July and you have it until Feb 2002.

5. Those of us fortunate to have had active AA accounts -- and had demonstrated some actual business to that carrier in the past -- were comped to the next level of elite (save for ExecPlat), and so the lowering of renewal threshhold seems fair enough. Maybe it is "only" 2/3rds the normal level, but you can use miles instead of points and again, achieve it with two trans-Pacific trips (thanks to the generosity of CX which now makes their deeply discounted fares eligible to us for AA accrual). Is it worth $3K to you to have Plat on AA for almost two years? (I know, you won't get upgraded on CX or QF. It's the old "cake and eat it" syndrome.)

6. AA mileage accumulation of BA flights would be the last straw in these special perks for Canadian AAdvantage members. Can you imagine the outrage and mass defections to UA and DL that would result if this were permitted! And why should AA encourage you to fly their competitor across the Atlantic, just because your don't want to fly into LGA (and take a transfer bus to JFK) or ORD to earn miles on AA itself?

I'm afraid I have to dissent from this initiative, and I'll earn my elite status the same way everyone else has to earn it: by flying AA (and its partners) and accumulating the appropriate number of miles.

[This message has been edited by Shareholder (edited 06-20-2000).]

Shareholder, I don't think this was intended to be a laundry list of freebies AA can hand out, rather a way to give AA an idea of what items would be more important than others on their list (or even some they haven't thought of). Certainly both terenz and KH's initial posts were heavy on service/scheduling items, and light on "kickbacks".

The items that would be best for me would be,

1. Team with a domestic Canadian carrier at the earliest possible moment ("team" doesn't have to be oneworld, but at least allow them to hand out AA points).

2. More transborder flights on routes formerly served by CP. Of course until there's a candidate for #1 (rootsair?) I will tend to start trips with YOW-ORD or YOW-BOS no matter what AA offers out of YVR, but right now even if I could get to YVR, it doesn't sound like AA can get me to California from there.

3. Reciprocal upgrade and award privileges as with CP, so that if I join a rootsair FF program, I have equivalent AA benefits, whatever they may be. I don't care if roots charges for lounge membership (obviously you all know I'd pay) if I then get reciprocal access in AA lounges.

4. The reduced target until there is a domestic partner is also good.

Sure I expect American members might be pissed about some of these things, I might even be too; but the reality is that if AA wants to maintain a presence among Canadian FF'ers, especially those with a significant percentage of domestic travel, they have to offer an incentive. The Canadian Amex program was better than the American, and that's too bad for Americans. (I used to get annoyed when my bank wanted an $85 renewal fee for my mortgage, but would shell out $150 to cover a new customer's penalties, but that's the way it works).

andrew

While I didn't set out with the specific intention, it occurs to me that my list (or half of it, anyway) boils down to asking AA to give me more opportunities to purchase their business. I think I concur with the attitude that AA has already been both generous and gracious with their offers. The lounge membership offer is a good example -- a small simple thing, that recognized our plight, and tried to rectify it as much as possible. (I may very well purchase a membership this weekend.) To ask for even more feels a little like looking a gift horse in the mouth.

My only request: More opportunities to participate with AA, either directly or indirectly. And air-to-air missles.

Is this all there is? Please make final submissions by 5 July

There are no sterile transit facilities avaiable at JFK--even for flights which arrive/depart within the same terminal. The only exception are continuing flights transitting the US where transit passengers remain on board, or at a sterilized gate. This does not permit a change of aircraft.

Everyone arriving ex-Canada would either have to clear locally (as with CX) or be precleared.

Indeed, I am aware of very few environments within the US where sterile transit is available. It might be OK for third country-USA-Canada, but in the reverse it is almost impossible, since the very few Canada-US flights which do not preclear also do not continue.

DFW is one place where they have a sterile transit lounge. Among other routes, it is used for MEX-DFW-YVR flights.

Originally posted by terenz:
Is this all there is? Please make final submissions by 5 July

Well, I personally was afraid that I was going to get bonked on the head for speaking out. What the heck, here is another tidbit of information. Canadians, call the Cathay Pacific Airways North America Marketing Team at +1 (800) 486-7523 and listen to their record marketing pitch. I wonder what level is "top-tier"...

Originally posted by AC*SE:
There are no sterile transit facilities avaiable at JFK--even for flights which arrive/depart within the same terminal. The only exception are continuing flights transitting the US where transit passengers remain on board, or at a sterilized gate. This does not permit a change of aircraft.

I remember transiting JFK 20+ years ago while flying Lima (?) - JFK - YVR - NRT. At JFK, they take all the transit passengers into a room with coffeee, donuts, and washrooms, all guarded by armed personnel. I don't remember which airline I arrived in JFK at, but it was not the same airline that flew the JFK-YVR segment (Canadian Pacific ?).

Better still was at YVR CPair boarded us all in a bus, took us for a tour of town, even fed us a boxed lunch on the bus. Didn't have to clear custom formalities at either JFK or YVR.


[This message has been edited by hsi.chang (edited 06-30-2000).]

Got that Cathay offer in a package that arrived yesterday. Wording includes the phrase "golden opportunity". When I called the toll-free number got a recorded message promoting a special offer for Canadians with elite status on any other program: Elite Canada offer. You send (mail or fax) a copy of your latest statement, your elite card and new AAdvantage card to AA in Ft. Worth and you will hear back from them in about 4 weeks. As hsi.chang notes, it is imprecise as to what it considers "top tier elite" to be.

As to the sterile transit facilities, I recall the one at DFW coming back from Guadalajara a few years back, but made no difference for us because we our flight departure was 4-hours and the Admiral's Club or a bar in the rest of the terminal was much more attractive. Just cleared U.S. customs and had a few drinks.

Gee, 20-years ago we were a much more innocent world and JFK actually an attractive airport to fly through. Those, indeed, were the days...

Do you think The Marco Polo might be comping us?

I've almost requalified for Exec Plat for this year (only 4K to go), and am now concentrating toward my AA Exec Plat (will achieve that by Sep).

So what else is there - except Marco Polo Diamond.

On the same topic, another good way to encourage the AA Advantage program in Canada would be to launch the Advantage mastercard offered in the US through Citibank.

Now that Citibank has bought the credit card business of Canada Trust they must now have a much larger customer base to support a card like the AA card. Given their close relationship with AA in the US, then why not do the same in Canada. It would give some competition to CIBC and Aerogold.

What does evryone think?, anyone heard of them doing this soon in Canada.

Only one problem.

Frequent flyer plans, and similar loyalty marketing cannot have infinite lives in Canada. (That's why Aéroplan keeps having to get renewed every few years).

I do not know whether it would be legal for a card issuer to offer miles to Canadian customers in a foreign program that does not comply with Canadian law.

Originally posted by AC*SE:
I do not know whether it would be legal for a card issuer to offer miles to Canadian customers in a foreign program that does not comply with Canadian law.

By the same token you cannot earn AA miles as a Canadian resident, nor can American Express transfer MR points to Delta/Continental. If AA wants to come into Canada, I'm sure they can work around this law, probably setting up a points system that is 1:1 transferrable (AOL Advantage points ?)

Best scenario ? Citibank Canada offers a Oneworld MasterCard in which points earned can be transferred to ANY Oneworld alliance FF program. That would be something.

Maybe I'm misreading you post, hsi.chang, but I've been collecting AA points for years and I'm a Canadian resident. Further Amex Canada certainly allows transfer of MR points to both Delta and Continental. Check their web site.

The only thing that seems impossible to do is to issue a US credit card (with or without a FF connection) to a Canadian resident. You can get US dollar credit cards (I have one) but it has to be issued by a Canadian bank.

Nix on the Citibank Visa or Mastercard tie in with AA up here since Citibank owns Diners and that, in Canada, of course is AC's travel and entertainment card partner ever since the enRoute division was sold by AC to Diners.

FF programs up here exist on a year to year basis, and are renewed annually. That's why we will have an announcement by mid-July about the futures of Cdn+ and Aeroplan.

CX appears to be concentrating its efforts with AA here in Canada. All their promotional material stresses the advantages of AAdvantage and the benefits by achieving elite levels in that program. As I noted, the 1-800 number given in CX's covering letter for its "2 business class tickets for price of 1" and "$200 off any fare to HKG" promotions goes directly to Ft. Worth and AA's Elite Canada message. (You must have a Canadian address to qualify for this comping, so maybe they'd consider Marco Polo for a Cdn+ ExecPlat who resides in the Asia/Pacific region.)

Originally posted by Shareholder:

CX appears to be concentrating its efforts with AA here in Canada. All their promotional material stresses the advantages of AAdvantage and the benefits by achieving elite levels in that program.

Seems to be a small exception to this. They are only aiming AAdvantage at member who are not with Asiamiles currently. When I got the free J class companion certificate, the accompanying letter had a box that said:


We assume you are actively earning Asia Miles when you fly (CX). If this is not the case, and you have been earning miles in a Canada-based frequent flyer program (read: CPlus or Aeroplan) instead, please call 1-800-307-3388. We have information that may be of great interest to you.

I wonder why they (CX) are not pumping Asia Miles in Canada?

terenz: I've never seen any promotions for AsiaMiles in Canada. I can think of a couple of reasons why CX is promoting AAdvantage instead of AsiaMiles for Canadian residents. AsiaMiles is only a loyalty program with no status levels. To me, AsiaMiles is akin to the Air Miles program here. AAdvantage, on the other hand, is a full-fledged FF program, offering elite status and has an established network of partners (at least in the US). AsiaMiles expire after just one year of inactivity, which is impractical for Canadians who do not travel to Asia every year. Ever since AAdvantage miles can be earned on discount economy fares on CX, AsiaMiles to me is of no use.

I've always been confused why CX has separate AsiaMiles and Marco Polo Club programs.


FewMiles..

Shareholder, good point on the Diners Citibank connection. I wonder if another Canadian Bank might step up to bat. I know that AA has a Advantage branded credit card in the UK offered trough Royal Bank of Scotland. Maybe someone else in Canada might be interested?

BMO is I think connected to Air Miles, but I don't think TD (coincidentally the buyer of Canada Trust and cause of the CT-MC selloff) has an affinity card beyond the General Motors rebate plan.

Other than that, who's left? Only Scotia as far as I can tell, unless ING Direct wants to get into the game (they have cash machines at Canadian Tire stores now). Or National Bank.


andrew

TD has a travel-related gold card program which gives discounts on bookings based on points earned through spending, so they may not be a candidate. But I agree there are still one or two others, albeit not the big three (or is it four or five?) banks. Problem is ING and BN are not large issuers and the latter is based primarily in Quebec, so would have even less presence in the key AA markets here in the rest of Canada.

I believe ING's investment accounts do have an airline tie-in in the US. I have been meaning to check this out, since I have considerable money in their high interest account and would not mind the miles. TDWaterhouse also have an airline tie-in in the US, but nothing up here either. Again, they have a fair chunk of my money too. I just wonder if our securites laws are different enough to preclude such tie-ins. (AC*AE should know these things, and I am sure will provide an answer. But I digress from the credit card issue at hand.)

Perhaps the Hong Kong Bank (forget the full set of letters it now uses for its acronym) might tie in with AA and CX to offer such a card. They have a solid customer base and the obvious home country tie-in to CX, which appears to be the primary staulking horse for AAdvantage's second assault on Cdn+ members.

Time will tell.

HSBC a possibility, but BMO runs their credit card arm in Canada. You know who else is in the market and would love some more customers is MBNA Canada. They are based in Ottawa and would just love some more business. I think in the US that they do have a few co-branded airline cards. They could do with something else to be more competitive.

I quess at this point we all agree that a AA card would be a benefit to AA in Canada!.

MBNA also just took over Canada Trust's Mastercard accounts from TD which will give them a substantial portfolio of new customers.

I wonder what the Cathy Pacific/American Airlines offer will be. I am guessing that it will be a match of current status held. My only hope is that they will give us the rest of 2000 and 2001. I want to fly them and get/earn the same status next year. But with six months left half our opportunities have gone.I look forward to seeing how they treat their top tier fliers.

As I go to Europe quite often the allowance to collect AA miles on BA flights is a must.

[This message has been edited by chihuahua (edited 07-01-2000).]

I suspect they will offer some sort of limited Gold with the proviso you make a certain number of flights on AA and CX to qualify for Gold or Platinum (or ExecPlat if you do 100K) thorugh 2001/2. AA has already reduced the number of miles/points required to requalify for these two elite levels if you are Canadian. Biggest drawback to AAdvantage for Canadians flying the Atlantic is the ineligibility of BA flights for mileage accumulation. You'd have to fly AA and route yourself through one of their hubs (LAX, ORD) to earn miles for these flights. (May be a moot point if BA/KL merger goes through, but that's a ways off.)

See my "AA news" post at: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum18/HTML/000499.html for an update on what AA is doing for us.

Here's my scorecard based on everything above:

Reduced elite qualifying levels: done

More flights between Canada and US hubs: almost done

More flights between major Canadian cities and US non-hubs: almost done

Improved oneworld opportunites: sort of done (i.e. CX promos, BA soon?)

More lounges in Canada: done

Free lounge access: precluded by regulation, but reduced rate available CPers

More comfortable seats: subjective, but some planes have improved seats

Improved food service: done, except for abominable lunches on short haul flights

AA/BA point accumulation: precluded by regulation

Relationship with a Canadian carrier: profoundly desired

Reciprocal upgrade and awards with a Canadian carrier: still in effect until further notice


To me, that seems pretty impressive, given that they haven't even been given the "shopping list" yet.

[This message has been edited by Ken hAAmer (edited 07-03-2000).]

A note:

It seems the YVR-JFK service will terminate 1 November. My latest AAdvantage statement put it as a seasonal service. I wonder if the load factors sank as AC made connection on CP flights next to impossible.

Also noticed that AA is trying to push AS/QX as a service to YYC, YEG, YLW, YVR and YYJ.

I'd pass up flying on AS for now until the FAA gets things sorted out there.

It hasn't really been commented on, but of course December 31st, 2000 will not only be the end of Cdn+, but also the end of earning and using points on AA.

Big ads in today's Toronto newspapers announcing AA Eagle (Jet) service between Toronto and Boston 3-4 times daily starting mid July.

Originally posted by Ken hAAmer:
Free lounge access: precluded by regulation, but reduced rate available CPers

Hmm... is it available to anyone who was with CP before, or only to those who are in Canada? And where can I find out about it (since the link you posted says nothing about that item)?