Canadian Airlines Plus - AMEX PULLS OUT OF CP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Canadian Airlines Pulls Out Of American Express Membership Rewards Program


MARKHAM, ON, April 24 /CNW/ - Amex Bank of Canada said today that it has
moved quickly to protect the interests of its Cardmembers after Canadian
Airlines pulled out as a partner in its Membership Rewards program.
American Express says it is immediately bringing forward plans to revamp
the travel component of its Membership Rewards program to allow members to use
their points towards a range of travel options, including tickets for any
airline for any destination in the world.
Cardmembers will be able to redeem their points for travel certificates
which can be applied to up to 50% of the value of their purchases of air
travel, package vacations, hotel stays, car rental, or other travel related
services through any of Amex Canada Inc.'s 85 retail travel offices throughout
Canada.
In addition, at the end of the year Cardmembers enrolled in Membership
Rewards will receive a points loyalty bonus of 10% on the points they earn
between May 1st and December 31st.
American Express says that it has been planning these and other yet to be
announced improvements to the Membership Rewards program for some time. But it
said the move to bring forward their announcement to today was prompted by
Canadian Airlines decision to pull out of the program.
Canadian Airlines informed American Express that, effective immediately,
it would stop accepting transfers of Cardmember's Membership Rewards points
into the Canadian Plus frequent flyer program.
Alan Stark, President & CEO of Amex Bank of Canada commented: "We are
very surprised by Canadian's move, but with the continuing uncertainty over
the airline's future, we had already come up with exciting plans to strengthen
the travel options in our Membership Rewards program."
He said that Canadian Airlines had been a partner in the program for
eight years, and that the current program was expected to be in place until
the end of 2002.
Mr. Stark pointed out that American Express pays a "significant sum of
money" to Canadian Airlines each month for points redemptions - revenue that
Canadian will now lose.
"It's a strange business decision for an airline in trouble to turn its
back both on an ongoing source of revenue and on many of its best customers,"
commented Mr. Stark.
"But our main concern had to be to protect the interests of the
Cardmembers in our program, and that is what we have done."
He added, "While we regret their decision, we feel it will have more of
an impact on Canadian Airlines and their customer relationships than it will
on American Express or our Members," said Mr. Stark.

New travel reward for the Amex Membership Rewards Program
---------------------------------------------------------

Membership Rewards enrollees will be able to redeem their points for
travel certificates that can be used at Amex Canada Inc. retail travel offices
for up to 50% of the value of their purchases. Enrollees will receive a $100
travel certificate for every 10,000 point redemption, which can be used
towards the purchase of airline tickets, train tickets, tour packages,
cruises, hotels, car rentals and travel insurance packages.
The addition of this new reward option makes the program even broader and
more flexible than other card or frequent flyer programs. American Express
Cardmembers will be able to:

- Book travel without the restrictions of blackout periods
- Use certificates for a much wider range of travel options
- Use certificates for discounted travel offers
- Use certificates for friends or family, or give as a gift

Along with these improvements, Membership Rewards enrollees will continue
to have the option of transferring their points into the frequent flyer
programs of Continental Airlines and Delta Air Lines. Cardmembers will also
earn a 10% points loyalty bonus at the end of the year.
In all, the Membership Rewards program offers over 150 reward choices for
travel, leisure, dining and entertainment. It also continues to be one of the
fastest points earnings programs available, with one point for virtually every
dollar spent and an optional program on selected cards to accelerate the rate
of points earning.

I can't say that I am terribly surprised. From my understanding, CIBC and AC have a fairly extensive exclusivity agreement that would have prevented Canadian's participation in the longer term. I expect that we will shortly hear that Royal will be cancelling their Cdn Plus Visa.

By the way, I was very annoyed that Amex has started adding the 3500 point surcharge on all pont transfers.

I can confirm that this has happened. Just called MR and tried to move points to CPlus. No dice. AMR should note that this is a perfect time to gain some more Canadian customers. If MR still insist on charging 3500 points for transfer to FF programs, they can kiss my business goodbye.

10000 MR points = $100 is a terrible deal. 25000 MR points would have got you a reward flight within Continental US/Canada, but $250 wouldn't even get you to Toronto-Montreal on a busy day, and the 50% limit also bites. Is the similiar to the MR+ program in the US ?

Don't know how many of you follow stocks. I am sure this had a big effect on CP's stocks. It was at a low of $0.25 this morning, it's at 0.87 as i write this. It closed at 1.15 when it last closed.

Seems like CPlus is going down soon!!

Actually, I doubt that the lower price has much to do with this news at all. Trading had been suspended as Canadian made its announcement of its debt restructuring, where unsecured creditors were to get 12 cents on the dollar and shareholders (the 18percent that did not tender their shares to AC - dummies) would likely get no consideration. The logical reaction would be to sell sell sell. If you look at the intraday values, the stock opened at $0.25 before the Amex announcement, and proceeded to climb for the first hour before levelling off at the $0.87 range.

I do agree though, that Canadian as a corporate entity will not be around for the long term. Either its creditors will agree to its plan and Cdn will emerge from Bankruptcy protection as a wholloy owned subsidiary of AC, or they won't and Canadian will go bankrupt. Personnally I think that your friend Mr. Milton will do what it takes to secure the approval from the creditors to avoid the political fallout that would ensure if Canadian flames out.

On the other hand, if Canadian does fail, it makes the issue of seniority in the unions that much easier to deal with...

Airline employees in Canada, and to a lesser degree American Express employees, would do well to stand clear. My morning so far:

09:45 PDT Check e-mail, FlyerTalk, etc. See post about CP/Amex divorce.

10:00 PDT Call CP E/P desk to inquire. Am told the story is "under verification" but probably not true.

10:15 PDT Call Amex to attempt automated points transfer, but instead get agent. Amex agent advises that CP, without notice or warning, unilaterally began refusing points transfers.

10:30 PDT Start firing off e-mails to journalists around the continent.

12:30 PDT Call CP E/P desk again, primarily on other business, but also ask again. Am told that that effective 90 minutes ago (11:00 PDT) you can no longer transfer MR points to CP. [This is particularly vexing to me, as the first thing on my to do list today was transfer some points and book one last BA First award.] CP agent advises that Amex without notice or warning, unilaterally decided to pull out of the CP program. CP's attempts to negotiate a graceful exit were rebuffed.

My guess -- they're both lying. But it appears (combined with the new "amenity" kits) that we're well on our way to a "world class airline" in Canada. (See my next report on "loyalty.")

With regard to Amex MR, it's now a virtually useless program, with no airline affiliation (in Canada) and they're so called "awards" being of essentially no value (see Hsi above.) Apparently Amex thinks FFers are as studid as the airlines do.

Nevertheless, as I've stated elsewhere, I always have options. So in a few days, my CP account will have enough points from other sources that I'll still have plenty of time to book the BA award. But now I have 100K+ "orphanned" MR points.

I'm advised that tommorow's "Report on Business" (Globe and Mail) will have a story, and most likely so will the National Post.

This is really no surprise! But, Amex Platinum card members must be very unhappy! I expect that the Royal Bank visa CP card will go as well.

Next to go is CPs participation in Air Miles


[This message has been edited by Flyaway (edited 04-24-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Flyaway (edited 04-24-2000).]

Sorry to hear about you're "missing the plane" on this KH. In anticipation of the 3.5K "charge" starting next month, I moved 25K across from Amex to CP last Monday and they were posted by Wednesday. [Like many, I had moved 20K in 5K increments across prior to CP's J-class award increases at year end to redeem 4 J-class tickets under the Amex discount program.] All this leaves me with about 4K in my Rewards account, plus any current charges on my Amex card coming through next month.

The new Amex program doesn't sound very attractive, so it may be time to reactivate my Delta account and transfer Amex into Delta, and then move Delta miles into HHonors points.

Any word on the status of the Amex discount on CP awards (suppose this is gone since it was linked to Rewards program), the 1K bonus for buying a CP ticket with an Amex card, or the Platinum card benefits like the 2 for 1 CP ticket?

Suppose time will tell.

EMPRESS, the "collapse" of CP has nothing to do with this, as MD has noted, this is just the logical process of the bankruptcy and reorganization with creditors set out in court last week.

[This message has been edited by Shareholder (edited 04-25-2000).]

Thanks for the explanation MD...

Luckily, I transfered all the remaining points from MR to CP last week when I booked a reward ticket. I was trying to avoid the 3.5K charge.

Does anyone think that Milton & friends is behind this again...!? I do..

Bloody Hell!
AMEX better improve their package to keep loyal card-members. I am not about to "drop" into an AMEX travel agency in Canada to book a ticket at 50% off with points redemption (at an outragous rate as well). I have 100K of AMEX points, I use this card everywhere in China and elsewhere. Although my card is registered as a "Canadian Card" it is essentially a global card as my statements are sent to China directly but billed in Canadian Dollars rather than US or RMB. This "package" does not help me at all.

I think my only use now is to transfer the miles to Continental and take a few flights to Guam, Palau and Micronesia on Air Mike.

AMEX has affiliated programs with airlines all over the world, I don't understand why they cannot extend those flexibilities to us. Check out below to see what other members around the world get and you can only come to the conclusion that either Canadians are indeed a passive lot or Canadian cardmembers are getting screwed!(maybe both??)

In Australia, the Aussies can redeem on Air New Zealand (Star Alliance), Qantas (OneWorld) and Malaysian (WorldPerks).

The Brits, Germans get Alitalia, Air France, Co, Delta, Iberia, Qualifer and Virgin. http://home3.americanexpress.com/uk/Personal/Cards/rewards/rewards_sum_airlines_body.asp

The Argentinians get Swissair,Air France, Varig and Australian Airlines (I think the latter is a typo and should read Austrian Airlines but you never know anymore)http://home3.americanexpress.com/argentina/Personal/Cards/rewards/rewards_travel.asp

The Yanks get a beautiful selection: Aeromexico, Co, Delta, El Al, Hawaiian, Korean, Mexicana, Southwest, TWA, US Air, Virgin and even LATINPASS.Plus Hiltonhonors, priority club,best western, marriott and starwood. http://home3.americanexpress.com/Rewards/explore/search_partner.asp

I can't get access to Singaporean, Taiwanese or Hong Konger sites while I am physically in China but I am sure their selection has got to be better than Canada.

I have fired off my email to AMEX Canada. I am hoping for some sort of reply. It will take an increase in Airline partners and the elimination of redemption mile charges to keep me in this program. Otherwise it will be time to re-activate my CIBC Visa card.

I don't think Canadians were getting screwed, rather I think the CP plan was so generous (2.25 CP points per US$ spent) that there was no need/reason to offer much else.

It will be interesting to see if AA steps in. I don't think they're part of the American Amex plan, but as part of their push to re-establish a Canadian presence, this would be the idea opportunity.

andrew

The contingency plan for AMEX doesn't cut it either. I tried to book a 2 for 1 ticket and have it issued at an AMEX travel agency a couple of weeks ago, only to have them tell me that there was a surcharge of $25.00 / ticket! That would equate to 2500 Membership Rewards Points. Seems like they'll get their surcharge from you one way or another.

Very P.O'd!

YYZ, you really cannot blame the travel agencies (Amex included) for charging you $25 to issue each ticket. The airlines have pared back their commissions to such a low level that all have implemented a $25 to $35 per ticket charge. There is staff time and a cost to issue a ticket. And afterall, for a free ticket that could be worth several thousand dollars, $50 is not outrageous.

It seems Amex may have been playing hardball with CP, but they should also have known CP's new management (i.e. Milton and company) were not going to respond in kind. Which is what they did. (Where to disgruntled Amex cardholders go for domestic travel: to AC, so they win either way and reduce CP's liabilities to Amex and others who bought ticekts at bulk discounts.) AC knows Amex has to play by its rules now, like it or not, since they are the only game in Canada.

I suspect we will see more incentives to use U.S. and non-Canadian carriers in Amex's revamped Rewards and Platinum program, as well as its other card promotions. This could in the end work to our benefit, so let's watch. I agree that the revamped program leaves much to be desired as outlined in the media release yesterday.

As for the Canadian Rewards program being worse than elsewhere in the world, each country has a program tailored to its domestic market needs. Partners are selected in part for their competitive attractiveness, but also may be limited by other commercial agreements. Until it instituted its 3.5K redemption charge, I feel we got good value from the program: not only points transfer valued at 2.25 per US$1 spent (thanks AW) but also a 15% to 20% discount on awards, particularly valuable on business class FF ticket bookings. And often the 1K bonus for using the Amex card to buy your tickets on CP was worth more points than the trip itself.

Yes, I agree the news came as a shock, and very suddenly. And I suppose had I not done my transfer last week, I'd have exploded like KH, and had fewer nice things to say about Amex. But from press stories today, it seems a bit like a "pox on both your houses" as two titans clashed and we little folk on the ground were hit by the debris. I will be upset if the Platinum program changed over the weekend too, and I cannot get a second ticket free on CP. (But I know I can use the U.S. program which offers greater airline choice, albeit I would have to buy a J of F class ticket to take advantage of it.)

Fair warning: Anybody planning to redeem AIR MILES on CP had better do it today. I suspect that will be the next shoe to drop. Afterall, CP basically is no longer carrying passengers at less than the cost of operating a seat on a given flight. That's been AC's secret for success, and why the new limitations on upgrades. CP is now in a position to ensure this can be implemented as their policy too.

By the way, Wall Street Journal has just reported that CP's new board have approved the creditor's plan which sees secured note holders getting 92-cents per dollar owed. No word of what unsecured creditors get (12-cents was rumour last week).

Shareholder,

No you can't blame the travel agencies (which was not my intention), but since I got over 100,000K in membership rewards points, I will have to deal with AMEX travel agency according to the news release (unless I want 16 dinner for two's at the KEG!!:> ). The point is, it still will be coming from my pocket, so I am not fully impressed with the solution. Better than nothing I suppose, but still, I will have to pay for that service whereas with an award ticket, it was free. Since I will only be able to get up to 50% off, two tickets to Vancouver from YYZ would cost me on the lowest fare (probably around $450, IF LUCKY). So that would cost me $500 (assuming two tickets purchased), + $50.00 service charge, + 20,000 membership rewards points. And no changes will be permitted on the ticket. I would much have preferred to pay 50,000 points, and not have it cost me a penny, and be more flexible with my travel plans.

Oh well, live and learn... I guess I am more P.O.'ed because I was going to transfer all my points before the end of this months because of that 3,500 surcharge. CIBC Aerogold, here I come.

By the way, I talked with a customer service rep. and apparently they do not know whether the Companion Ticket will be honoured or not. Not looking good though because she told me it was in the same contract as the Membership Rewards points transfer, that was deemed null and void (even though signed until 2002). At least I already booked my companion ticket travel (but don't travel to May, so I hope they honour that ticket!)

Shareholder,

No you can't blame the travel agencies (which was not my intention), but since I got over 100,000K in membership rewards points, I will have to deal with AMEX travel agency according to the news release (unless I want 16 dinner for two's at the KEG!!:> ). The point is, it still will be coming from my pocket, so I am not fully impressed with the solution. Better than nothing I suppose, but still, I will have to pay for that service whereas with an award ticket, it was free. Since I will only be able to get up to 50% off, two tickets to Vancouver from YYZ would cost me on the lowest fare (probably around $450, IF LUCKY). So that would cost me $500 (assuming two tickets purchased), + $50.00 service charge, + 20,000 membership rewards points. And no changes will be permitted on the ticket. I would much have preferred to pay 50,000 points, and not have it cost me a penny, and be more flexible with my travel plans.

Oh well, live and learn... I guess I am more P.O.'ed because I was going to transfer all my points before the end of this months because of that 3,500 surcharge. CIBC Aerogold, here I come.

By the way, I talked with a customer service rep. and apparently they do not know whether the Companion Ticket will be honoured or not. Not looking good though because she told me it was in the same contract as the Membership Rewards points transfer, that was deemed null and void (even though signed until 2002). At least I already booked my companion ticket travel (but don't travel until May, so I hope they honour that ticket!)

Another source of info on this subject good people...
From an employee email.

AMERICAN EXPRESS MEMBERSHIP REWARDS PROGRAM CANCELLED
Canadian Airlines had a nine-year relationship with American Express
covering three areas, one of which was the Amex Membership Rewards
Program (MRP). This program enabled Amex cardholders to convert
their MRP points to Canadian Plus points. We needed to amend this
MRP agreement with Amex, as the agreement was not in the best
interests of CDN under the restructuring process. For over two
months we have attempted to negotiate with Amex. We offered to
permit Membership Reward Program members the ability to convert MRP
points to Canadian Plus points until the end of the year, giving
Amex customers over seven months to convert their MRP points to
CPlus points. Unfortunately, Amex was not prepared to accept our
proposal and this has forced us to take immediate action and cancel
the MRP agreement. Under the terms of CCAA we may terminate
contracts that are not in our best interest. Amex will now become
one of our unsecured creditors under CCAA.

We have put procedures in place for Amex Membership Reward Program
customers who were in the process of booking CPlus award travel when
the agreement was cancelled. Our Call Centre and Airport agents
should refer to F*CDN/AMEX in Sabre for procedural information.

I think that we are all quite rightly peeved by the lack of notice that we received on this issue. Even if one months notice had been given of the impending cut off would have affected Canadian that much, and it would have saved the wrath of its customers.

Amex's new program of 10000 MR = $100 is in line with its other rewards such as dining. A fine dining for two (appetizer, entree, desert for two) runs 10,000 points and would be valued in the $100 - 150 range. It just happens to be no where as good of a deal as the Cdn plus system.

So then the question remains - is MR still worthwhile for me? I tend to accumulate about 3000 MR points per month, at an annual cost of $80.25, including GST. Would I use the free fancy meals, and would I value them above my cost? For me, yes I would, so my decision is made. But if I did not live near a major centre that has a choice of such restaurants, my decision might be different.

Of course, I could always save my points for 20+ years and get a Butterfield and Robinson tour http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Send a fax to the CEO at Amex to complain; I sent this off today.

To Alan Stark
CEO
American Express Canada
101 McNabb Street
Markham Ontario
L3R 4H8


Re : Platinum Amex xxxxxxxxxxxxx / Membership Rewards/Canadian Airlines

Via fax: 905.474.8708


Dear Mr. Stark,

I enclose a copy of a note that I sent this AM via the American Express Canada Web site.

Like many cardholders, I am outraged at the situation with Canadian Airlines, with respect to the Membership Rewards program.

However, I am also becoming outraged that the "announcements" by Amex yesterday to attempt to placate members -- $100 per 10,000 points - are so ridiculous that they barely merit mention.

How dare you insult us! You insult us by offering such a pittance, compared to the programs offerred by American Express worldwide in other airline programs.

I have accumulated almost 1/2million membership points, in good faith. I'm outraged at the "solution" that you now propose to offer. The beauty of the era of the Internet is such that your insult is readily apparent. As noted on an online bulletin board this AM (www.flyertalk.com)

AMEX has affiliated programs with airlines all over the world, I don't understand why they cannot extend those flexibilities to us. Check out below to see what other members around the world get and you can only come to the conclusion that
either Canadians are indeed a passive lot or Canadian cardmembers are getting screwed!(maybe both??)

In Australia, the Aussies can redeem on Air New Zealand (Star Alliance), Qantas (OneWorld) and Malaysian (WorldPerks).

The Brits, Germans get Alitalia, Air France, Co, Delta, Iberia, Qualifer and Virgin http://home3.americanexpress.com/uk/Personal/Cards/rewards/rewards_sum_airlines_body.asp

The Argentinians get Swissair,Air France, Varig and Australian Airlines (I think the latter is a typo and should read Austrian Airlines but you never know anymore)http://home3.americanexpress.com/argentina/Personal/Cards/rewards/rewards_travel.asp

The Yanks get a beautiful selection: Aeromexico, Co, Delta, El Al, Hawaiian, Korean, Mexicana, Southwest, TWA, US Air, Virgin and even LATINPASS.Plus Hiltonhonors, priority club,best western, marriott and starwood.
http://home3.americanexpress.com/Rewards/explore/search_partner.asp

The beauty of the era of the Internet is that companies are under immediate scrutiny when it comes to how they treat their customers.

Given the pittance that you have offerred, and the fact that the value of my Platinum card, sans Canadian involvement, is now perceived by me as virtually worthless, I have this AM for, and understand I have been approved for, a new CIBC Aerogold card.

I plan to begin immediately use it for all my travel bookings, in order to earn Aeroplan points, since I figure my Platinum Card and the American Express Membership Rewards service is now basically useless.

With up to $25,000 in travel bookings in the next month, I would expect that you hope to do more for your customers in the wake of this event than insult them.

I expect I will receive, within the next day or two, a nice, flowery letter from you, penned by your PR folks, on the wonderful new program you have extended to us upon the cancellation. Try as you might, you cannot put a "spin" on your insult.

Don't bother sending the letter; we know what you will say, how you hope to "spin" it, and already see through the "spin." Do something more concrete and real, than spin.

I look forward to hearing as to how American Express intends a remedy that recognizes an equivalent value in the Membership Rewards program as existed with the Canadian Airlines program.

Yours truly,
xxxxxx

----
Sent via the Web, April 25

Dear Alan,

I was as stunned, I suppose, as you were at the Canadian Airlines pullout
from the American Express Membership Rewards.

I'm a platinum cardholder (xxxxxxx), and have accumulated
almost 1/2million Amex points. My plan was to use these for family trips
to Europe etc on Canadian.

You should put an equivalent program in place ASAP; otherwise, I'll feel
compelled to immediately transfer my $50,000-80,000 approx per annum
spending to an EnRoute or other card, for points on Air Monopoly. After
all, that's the way the world is working, isn't it?

You should know this: the value of points in your membership program has
collapsed from my perspective. Not only that, but your announcement
yesterday (your offer to allow an exchange of $100 in travel equivalehnt
for 10,000 points) is a joke), since it comes no where close in equivalent
value to flights on Canadian. Prior to the Canadian pullout, I could have
obtained 6 business class flights to Europe for a value of $18,000,
compared to your value of $4,000 with this "new" program.

I'll be booking approximately $25,000 in travel in June. My fall is equally busy. I'm
applying for an CIBC/Air Canada Visa card today in order to hedge my bets
and will plan to book on that card (and all subsequent expenditures)
unless you come up with a "better offer."

I trust you will keep people in the loop, but this feedback is probably
essential.

I actually have a very low opinion of American Express's customer service, based on my experiences with them since getting the card. But as with so many other things I never got around to writing about it (after escalating both one and two levels by phone on different occasions and still no return call from either). Now I'll have to write Mr. Stark, so he doesn't think I'm leaving because of the CP thing.

One thing I'll say in contradiction to davistev and intheairguy: while I expect any replacement program to be less generous than with CP in the past (because CP was probably very generous in its concessions to Amex and I'd bet >90% of MR points ended up in CPlus accounts), I'm sure there will be a better program than what they've announced.

But give them a chance! How long have they known about this? If CP (i.e. AC) really did just walk away from the negotiating table with no notice, what else could Amex have come up with in 48 hours!?

For instance, I still think that AA will slip in, in place of CP. But they don't participate in the U.S. Membership Rewards program! So this would be more complicated than just extending a participation which they had held back on to give CP a chance (which from other threads I understand they've done in other areas, e.g. not promoting AAdvantage to Canadians until the recent flood of mailings). Someone at AA (Carty maybe?) would have to approve participation in the Amex Canada program when they've decided not to participate in Amex U.S. That's not a decision that will be made lightly.

I'll probably end up moving my points into Starwood but for now (until I'm closer to cancelling, or rather not renewing, my account) I'll leave them in MR.

andrew

YYZ. My comment about the travel agency service fee was strictly limited to the Platinum 2nd ticket free offer, and not what you have quite rightly pointed out, is a way to further erode the value of the new Amex MR coupon under the revamped scheme. I do agree, a $25 issuing fee on a ticket you are paying for in part with a $150 or $200 discount certificate reduces the value of the discount by up to 25%. So I agree with you on that count, and that it just fattens Amex's wallet.

I just got off the phone with a Cdn GOLD res agent who tells me they are not booking the Platinum 2nd ticket free flights, and that the Empress Club memberships extended to Platinum card holders is also likely to vanish very soon. However, she did caution that nobody totally knows what the severing of the Amex relationship will mean for a few days yet, as the details are clarified from HQ to res staff.

She, like me, had just transferred most of her points last week to book some FF tickets for her parents, so was personally relieved.

Another Amex note: Those of us with CP tickets booked under the Amex discount program, and who want to make changes to the flights or itineraries, are limited to CP metal flights, and these tickets cannot be used -- except for purposes of operational changes -- on AC metal flights, either AC or CP codeshares.

Duplicate posting. FlyerTalk is awfully slow today!

[This message has been edited by Shareholder (edited 04-25-2000).]

After reading the above, I feel your pain and share your anger; but I cannot control my urge to comment:

"God love you, my wonderful northern friends. Many of us in the States have not just 'come to the conclusion', but have known for years (since our Revolution) that Canadians 'are indeed a passive lot'"!

But in this instance, "Keep Up The Fight! Don't let the Americans (i.e., AMEX) result in your 'getting screwed'".

I couldn't help myself. Please forgive me. And let me continue to play Liar's Poker. How else can I make expenses when I am north of the border?

I too am completely frustrated by the inadequate response of American Express.

I followed InTheAirGuy's lead and sent my comments to Mr. stark and to Canadian Plus as well.

I was in the process of doing my pre May 1 point transfer on Monday morning, when I was told by Amex rewards that "Oh you can't convert to CPlus any more".

All I can say is EVERYONE must write to both Amex and Canadian Plus and let them know they screwed up big time.

I don't think Canada deserves a national carrier if this is the way a Loyalty program is supposed to work.

I do hope American Airlines makes an effort to pick up more of the Canadian Market. I can just see Air Canada's Aeroplan behind all this and I want their to be another alternative.

Screwed in Toronto

Hey InTheAirGuy, I couldn't have said it better myself - hang on!! Seriously, good going mate. Yes you are indeed correct about the power of the internet and especially this forum to get the news out and to wipe away any attempt at a whitewash.

Just maybe all AMEX Canada needs is some time to negotiate with other carriers. I hope this to be the case but then again I also had faith in Phillips and Laidlaw.

Maybe it is time to link the Canadian card to the Australian operation or to do something a little more imaginative than what was offered. Come'on AMEX go wild and think outside your little box.

Originally posted by Shareholder:
Any word on the status of the Amex discount on CP awards (suppose this is gone since it was linked to Rewards program), the 1K bonus for buying a CP ticket with an Amex card, or the Platinum card benefits like the 2 for 1 CP ticket?


I can further confirm that the 2-for-1 coupon issued yearly to the Platinum Amex card holders are now invalid. My father took his to an AMERICAN EXPRESS TRAVEL AGENCY and they've refused him from using it. News reports that this is still "up in the air" is incorrect.

From the Amex Canada web site, http://home3.americanexpress.com/canada/card/apps/CAIL_Q&A.rtf lists Amex feeble response. Point (6) specifically says that the 3,500 transfer fee remains in place, along with the minimum of 10,000 points per transfer (instead of 0 fee and 5,000 points minimum). How can Amex even begin to argue this since their point of the fee in the first place was "too many people are transferring to CPlus". You will also notice that point (10) in the "contents" page "How does Amex intend to keep my business" is not answered in the body of the web document.

I know I was quoted in today's Globe and Mail with what I've posted here. I know the reporter printed exactly what I said here, but I didn't mean it to sound like I'll forgive Amex if they'll just drop the 3,500 points fee, and it would be business as usual. I am hoping that AA AAdvantage will take over CPlus' place with Amex MR, but that is unlikely as AMR has an existing relationship with Citibank in the US, and Citibank Canada is becoming more agressive with their card products.

All in all, that Q&A is not only a joke, but offensive. The non-answer to most questions is a bunch of fluff about how they have this great new travel benefit. 'Course, anyone with at least a 2-digit IQ can quickly see that it's a pretty empty offer.

I wouldn't mind if they simply said "We're still figuring out what to do. Maybe there's nothing we can do. Sorry." But this response is almost as bad as CP/AC's behaviour. The difference between offensive and reprehensible, I suppose.

Here's a link to the article in the Globe and Mail:
http://www.globeandmail.com/gam/Travel/20000426/TR26BIZ.html

It probably expires on May 1.

-------------------------

Point junkies feel betrayed by Canadian-Amex breakup

DOUGLAS McARTHUR

Wednesday, April 26, 2000

A sense of betrayal is setting in as tens of thousands of award-point junkies adjust to Monday's disheartening announcement from American Express.

Effective immediately, said the charge card giant, its Membership Awards program will no longer include Canadian Airlines as a partner. The card company accused the airline of pulling out. Canadian, in turn, said the breakup was all the fault of Amex. Many industry observers suspect the real culprit may be Air Canada -- currently in the process of taking over Canadian. But it is denying any involvement....


[This message has been edited by Ken hAAmer (edited 04-26-2000).]

Saw GLOBE article this morning -- every so often we get McArthur's stories in the national edition -- and the various comments.

Think the overall message was Amex's new program leaves an awful lot to be desired. I noticed on the Amex forum a posting about a new enhanced U.S.-based Rewards program which sounds similar to the one they are offering us up here, but seems at least 2 to 3 times more generous in the conversion value of points to dollars towards flights. In fact, it appears to permit transfer of points to full value of flights on any airline, no "service charge" on cashing in points, etc. However, there is a 21-day advance booking requirement and Saturday overnight stay needed, according to posting. [Sorry, can't provide link since I am no computer expert.]

It will be interesting to see what Amex offers those of us with now worthless 2 for 1 Platinum coupons. [I actually would have preferred keeping DESTINATIONS, the magazine, over the certificate, but...] As for other benefits of Platinum, it will also be a waiting game.

POST runs a story this morning speculating on the future link between CP and AIR MILES, also under renegotiation. Likely to be renewed, according to story, but with seasonal discounts removed or award "prices" going up. Of course in this case, AIR MILES has some bargaining leverage since it has a lot more cardholders and similar deals with NW/KLM, AA and UA. Since all seats are Y-class, it could quickly sign a deal with Canada3000, Royal or WestJet, albeit lots of folks in smaller centres would have no air link into the key airports from which these carriers operate.

All told, this whole matter seems to focus on the super-discounted "unpublished" fares CP has offered to its "partners" to keep them on board.

Wonder if I will still be able to get Cdn+ points for my move with AJM Campbell later this summer, or if that too is being renegotiated?

And the National Post link: http://www.nationalpost.com/home.asp?f=000426/270744

-------------

Free flights on Canadian Airlines likely to become less frequent

Deal with Air Miles close: Monopolistic practices are going to shaft the public'

Ian Jack and Peter Fitzpatrick
National Post

OTTAWA and TORONTO - Canadian Airlines Corp. and Air Miles are close to a deal that will salvage the popular frequent flyer program but likely make it tougher to collect free flights.

The agreement, expected within days, is the latest signal it will not be business as usual for customers of Canadian, now run by Air Canada.

On Monday, Canadian executives abruptly cancelled a frequent flyer arrangement with American Express. That move left travellers angry and confused, and some of them blamed Air Canada's near-monopoly for the turn of events....

I think we all agree that what happened was Amex playing hardball with CP as usual, stupidly overlooking the fact that they're really dealing with AC now. I've always assumed the Points Accelerator option was financed by CP (like, the bonus points go to Amex for free).

Saw coverage of this story on CBC last night (The National). It included an interview with ?Doug Post? of AC regarding the much longer times to get through and claim awards these days. His answer makes some of the recent stupid comments seem practically respectful of our intelligence (or, he's pegging customers' IQ down into single digits now).

Why are the waits so long? (I apologize for paraphrasing). Well, now that both CP and AC flyers have the option of using both CP and AC for their award travel, they're making much greater demands. With all the extra destinations, where we were satisfied to fly Vancouver to Toronto, now we're asking about Vancouver to Toronto to Europe to Africa! And of course that takes much more time to check out.

What a stupid response.

andrew

At least I now know who Milton's mentor was. I'm convinced it was C. Montgomery Burns, as typified in this quote:

"Well, if it's a crime to love one's country, then I'm guilty. And if it's a crime to steal a trillion dollars from our government and hand it over to communist Cuba, then I'm guilty of that, too. And if it's a crime to bribe a jury, then so help me, I'll soon be guilty of that!"

I wonder what's next?

And in other news... Once again, at 99 hours 57 minutes, I received an automated notification of my AA upgrades, as requested several weeks ago.

When the news of the 3500 point fee after May 1 came with my statement, I called Amex and asked to convert my points to CP. The Amex agent told me to wait until the end of the month. So I called yesterday and learned of the breakup - the agent said it was a disaster for Amex - timing couldn't have been worse.
I wonder: is this not a case of fraud? I signed up and paid my fees in good faith with the understanding that I was accumulating rights to CP miles. When this is withdrawn I have been misled and defrauded. Maybe we can have a class action suit? I'd settle for a dollar per point and treble damages.

Seems I'm the press release boy over the last few days. I haven't had time to make comments of my own, as I'm right in the middle of final exams. One left, and I'm going insane! I'll try to stop http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Canadian Airlines clarifies position on American Express Membership Rewards Program -- immediate termination unnecessary

CALGARY, April 26 /CNW/ - Canadian Airlines is issuing the following
clarification in response to comments made by American Express officials
following their announcement on April 24th that Canadian Airlines was no
longer a partner in its Membership Rewards Program.
As part of the restructuring of the airline, Canadian has been attempting
to negotiate with Amex Bank of Canada to amend its Membership Rewards Program
agreement as the agreement was not economically viable and was not in the best
interests of Canadian. As a result, under the terms of a court order pursuant
to the Canadian Companies Arrangement Act, Canadian was forced to take action
to terminate the American Express Membership Rewards Program agreement.
Canadian has offered to Amex Bank of Canada the ability to continue to convert
Membership Rewards Points to Canadian Plus points until the end of the year
2000, under the same financial terms, effectively giving customers over seven
months to convert their points.
``The inconvenience to customers resulting from Amex's refusal to allow
for an orderly wind down of the program is totally unnecessary. Our offer to
Amex to extend the program to year end under the same financial terms remains
on the table. We urge them to consider their customers and the options that
remain open to them,'' said Paul Brotto, President and Chief Executive
Officer.

[This message has been edited by Fisch (edited 04-26-2000).]

Given other claims made by airlines in Canada of late, I'm not predisposed to give CP the benefit of the doubt at this point. It'll be interesting to see Amex's response. I'm especially surprised by this claim that CP offered to continue the deal as is until Dec 31. Seems improbable to me that Amex would cut the contract immediately, rather than continue to benefit from it for at least the next 8 months.

And hey, Fisch -- thanks for the regular and timely updates. It's times like this that FT really shines, and you particularly are a Godsend/Lifeline. Thanks.

Brigitte and I were lucky enough to have used the Platinum Card's 2 for 1 voucher last Thursday for a trip to SYD. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif I'd like to say we had inside information, but it was just dumb luck, NO procrastination and Barb, our Platinum Travel Services contact.
We'll be moving 70,000 MR points into CO tomorrow to avoid the 3,500 surcharge and use them for a couple of coach tickets to South America next year.
My predictions for the future: Once AC's contract with Diners/Enroute has expired, they may be well disposed to forge a new partnership with Amex, which has a larger global presence. Two years from now CP will have gone the way of Nationair, Wardair, Nordair and Intair as will the Royal Bank's CanadianPlus credit card. Air Miles? They'll forge an alliance with Canada 3000 which will rise to take over CP's traditional underdog role as David to AC's Goliath. Just my $0.02!

Originally posted by flyme2:
My predictions for the future: Once AC's contract with Diners/Enroute has expired, they may be well disposed to forge a new partnership with Amex, which has a larger global presence

Highly unlikely. When CIBC funded AC battle with Onex, one of the conditions was that AeroPlan sign up with CIBC AeroGold Visa for a 10 year term. Can't see this "exclusive" agreement leaving room for Amex, a much bigger threat to Visa than Diners Club, to sign up under AeroPlan as well. If Amex hopes to land AeroPlan, it wouldn't happen until 2010, or when Amex Bank merges with CIBC.

With regards to the lates CP new release, Amex MR members should rise up and force Amex to take this deal. I know I will be writting to the Platinum Card customer service, what ever good that to does, given they've ignore my last two faxes to them. I hear a good tactic is to call them up and demand to speak to the Amex Canada CEO. The Platinum cardholders are after all their "best" customers, aren't they ?

B1,

Very unlikely. You need three elements for fraud:

1) Misrepresentation, 2) Reliance and 3) Loss.

You probably have 2), you relied on Amex's program description.

3) is debatable. You purchased things with Amex, getting goods and services for the same price you would have paid, anyway. Only if you paid a service charge to register in MR would you have an attributable loss.

You definitely don't have 1). Amex never promised it would last forever, or that there would be any warning or grace period before cancellation.

Similarly, you probably don't have a contract claim either. Read the fine print, but I am willing to wager cancellation of the program or elements of it is carefully covered.

Anyway, this isn't professional advice, so don't take my word for it. If you are feeling litigious, have a word in your lawyer's shell-like. You never know...

Well, I always look for a silver lining in a black cloud. As an Aeroplan member, every few months, I get a pre-approved CIBC Aeroplan Visa card invitation with the offer of 5K or 10K (variously) bonus Aeroplan miles upon first use. I have always passed on the offer, since I have the RBVisa/Cdn+ card and Amex Platinum and Cdn+ is my primary FF program. As well, I have my Diners enRoute|Maple Leaf card from the days of the old enRoute Club, and which I do use regularly.

I suppose the next time the invitation from CIBC comes around, I will take them up on it, and add 10K or more into my Aeroplan aco.....

Unless Amex quickly moves to shore up their Platinum card benefits in Canada (which will be difficult since the 2 for 1 coupon was the most valuable element) -- as well as the already disparaged Rewards program -- it may be time to reconsider the $300+ annual fee, my Charter Member status, and 28-year association with Amex. Their no-fee basic cards, or the AIR MILES card, are looking more and more attractive every day.

I am also surprised that Amex has not attempted to communicate any information directly with their Platinum members. Phone staff are uninformed -- surely the company could have provided them with a clear basic statement -- and both my email and fax number are on file so a prompt message could have gone out this week. (I am sure we'll get something in the mail within a week or two, but...) Their web notice is a disaster. When I downloaded the file and printed it out, it spooled 48 pages, most of which were uncomprehensible symbols and blank space! Even Amex's newspaper ads just appeared today and they blur the Rewards and Platinum card benefits, and thus are quite unclear.

Surely this will become a case study in corporate PR programs as "how not to do it". I guess all Amex's execs and PR staff were up in Muskoka over the Easter holiday, getting their cottages in shape for the Victoria Day weekend.

For what it's worth, here are details of the new U.S. Membership Rewards Plus program Amex is offering. (I've copied the highlights from a posting on one of the Amex forums.) You'll note how much better the points conversion rates are, and they are good for the full cost of the ticket, not just 50%.

Introducing the Membership Rewards Plus Program

The freedom to travel on your own terms

When you enroll in the Membership Rewards Plus program, you'll enjoy the freedom to fly where you want when you want. This extraordinary program includes all your current Membership Rewards benefits - plus much more.

Freedom from blackout dates and frequent flyer seat restrictions

With the new Your Ticket reward, you can redeem points for airline tickets worldwide, with no blackout dates or frequent flyer seat restrictions. Get a seat on the flight that's most convenient to you - without having to plan months in advance.*

Your Ticket Rewards

Round-trip, Coach-class Ticket to anywhere within the Continental United States, valued up to $500 -- 35,000
...the Caribbean, Mexico, Canada, or Central America, valued up to $650 -- 45,000
...Alaska or Hawaii, valued up to $850 -- 60,000
...Europe, valued up to $900 -- 65,000
...South America, valued up to $1,000 -- 70,000
...Asia or the Middle East, valued up to $1,300 -- 90,000
...anywhere in the world, valued up to $2,000 -- 150,000

Freedom to choose the airlines you prefer

Your ticket also lets you fly on any airline. You'll even earn frequent flyer miles for each flight if you're enrolled in the airline's frequent flyer program.

Of course in addition to the new Your Ticket reward, you'll still be able to transfer Membership Rewards Plus points into the frequent flyer programs of our 12 major airline partners.

Freedom to use points for anything you charge to the Platinum Card

Another benefit of Membership Rewards Plus enrollment is Your Reward. This feature lets you use points to pay for any charges on your Platinum Card statement. Even your annual fee.**

Sign up now and enjoy the freedom

As a Platinum Card member, you're invited to take advantage of this exciting program for just $35 per year. When you enroll, your current Membership Rewards points balance will be transferred into your new Membership Rewards Plus account.

Please take a moment to complete and return the attached Enrollment Certificate. For immediate enrollment or more information, please call Customer Service at 1-800-443-9251 and mention code 9995.

* Your Ticket rewards are booked with Membership Rewards Plus Customer Service and require a 21-day advance booking and Saturday night stay. Only Membership Rewards Plus points may be redeemed for Your Tickets rewards. Your Ticket rewards are available for round-trip, coach-class flights only. Four airline tickets can be redeemed with Your Ticket per calendar year, per program account. If the airfare on your preferred carrier is more expensive than the lowest priced airfare available on a major airline carrier or if the cost of the ticket is more expensive than the allowable ticket value, you may redeem the specified number of points for the ticket and pay the difference on your Platinum Card. For the 35,000 point level, travel must originate in the 48 continental United States. For all other point levels, travel must originate in any of the 50 United States.

** For Your Reward, Membership Rewards Plus points can be used to pay for any charge made within the last six months on any of your eligible American Express Cards enrolled in the Membership Rewards Plus program. When you are ready to redeem for Your Reward, call Membership Rewards Plus Customer Service to determine the number of points necessary for the charge. Your current bill will be due in full and a credit for the amount of the charge will appear on the next billing statement of the primary enrolled Card account.

[This message has been edited by Shareholder (edited 04-27-2000).]

An item of semi-good news for a change... just called AMEX Platinum to transfer my points, originally destined for CDN Plus, now to Delta, prior to the May 1st deadline.

They've extended the deadline, I am told now, until July 1st. This means there will be no 3,500 points transfer fee until July 1.

Wish they would have done away with it all together, but it's a start! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Well if they've decided to extend the deadline on transferring points without charge, it's like YYZ says it's a start, but not nearly enough. Perhaps they're also rethinking their inane substitution "benefit" of $100 for 10,000 pts. If they're not, they should. The offer is insulting!

Back on April 26, B1 reported that "the agent said it was a disaster for Amex - timing couldn't have been worse."

In fact I think the timing couldn't have been better. It would have been much worse for Amex if it had happened on May 2, right after most members cleaned out their MR accounts into CP at the old redemption fee (0) and the old minimum (5000).

Best for them would have been to continue the program at a cost favourable to themselves. But if the relationship had to end, better to end right before massive transfers, rather than right after. Shurely a coincidence!

andrew

AW, you been reading FRANK magazine again? Conspiracy theory? Say it isn't so...

Shareholder, when I was in Michigan for 8 months in 1996, I subscribed to two publications to keep up with the news from home: Globe & Mail and Frank!

andrew, "Frank by name, frank by nature"

I wrote Amex on the 27th to express my own concerns -- as noted in these and other FlyerTalk postings -- about the sudden devaluation of the Platinum card and its benefits. A few minutes ago I just received a faxed response from Alan Stark, president of Amex Canada.

"Canadian Airlines terminated the contract we had with them late on Thursday, April 20th just before the holiday weekend... This was a sudden and surprise move which is clearly related to their financial restructuring while under bankruptcy protection. It would appear that the timing was such that it offered us little legal recourse against their action. The structure of the airline industry is going through a great deal of change right now and problems such as ours and other frequent flyer programs are going to go through change also as a consequence.

"To give you some background on the manner thatthis occurred, there was some discussion with Canadian during the last week which basically amounted to them presenting us with a list of demands and concessions that were frankly very unreasonable and would not have allowed us to sustain the program. We went back to them with what we felt were reasonable comproimses -- despite the fact that we had an existing contract that is due to run until at least the end of 2002.

"It was clear though they were not really interested in negotiating and that they simply wanted to get out of the contract while they are still under bankruptcy protection."

Most of Mr. Stark's other remarks explain what they've already posted: the new program is a first step (vouchers can be used on seat sales, etc. thus increasing their value) and that other enhancements are "in the pipeline and [we] will be working aggressively to come up with travel rewards that we hope to be able to announce in the coming months. This includes talking with other airlines about potential partnerships in the program.

"I guess in a nutshell what I am saying is, this did happen very suddenly. We have tried to go some way to quickly provide an alternative, and we are offering an incentive to you in the bonus points to stay with us while we work on other longer term solutions."

Stark attached a copy of the fax sent by Canadian to them on Thursday, April 20th at 4:03 pm Calgary time [6:03 Toronto time] the day before the Good Friday holiday. The actual fax printout is scrawled across the top of the copy indicated these times. It is addressed to the General Counsel, Amex Bank of Canada, and indicates that Canadian intends to terminate its Agreement as of April 24, 2000 and that on that date Canadian will no longer honour services to Amex including points transfers...

Anyone else receive a response to their letters as yet?