MilesBuzz! - Ethics question

Suppose one were to have a coupon for an upgrade or free whatever at a hotel or airline, and suppose one made a reservation using the coupon, and then checked in and actually received the full benefit of the coupon from the hotel or airline, but the check in agent failed to collect the coupon. And suppose the coupon holder then anticipated no further opportunities to use the coupon again before its expiration date.

Would it be unethical to offer said coupon to someone else, say, in this forum, considering that the hotel or airline had provided the full value in good faith, and had not issued the coupon with the intent that it be used multiple times?

Yes. If the coupon was for one-time use, and you use it one time, it should not be used again.

If you have to ask... ;)

To each their own...Ethics-wise, yes, it's unethical because you've received full value & benefit.

Reality-wise, if they failed to collect it (and you, in good faith, were willing to give it up), then feel free to use it to your advantage & benefit, even if it means trading it. Sometimes GA's don't collect coupons - I'm guessing you're speaking of an upgrade coupon, but how many times have you ever ordered a pizza or something & not actually given the coupon? Or used a coupon on an car rental & never actually physically handed it over? That's no different between a coupon for a 9.99 pizza & a SWU - an uncollected coupon still has value. I'd use it.

The reason many companies issue coupons is because it encourages you to use their products. Here's an example: I had a choice between flying on AA from the US to Europe for 500.00 & an I had a coupon for a free Upgrade & flying on UA from the US to Europe for the same price & didn't have a coupon for a free Upgrade, I'd fly on AA - thereby giving them the revenue that if all things were equal, UA probably would have gotten from me.

Well its not the same as cheating on your income taxes or robbing a bank, but....

Yes it's unethical, yes people do it all the time. Will lightning strike you down... probably not.

If you want to rationalize it you could always tell yourself that someone else out there who has an unused coupon probably won't use it. Therefore you are not costing the airline/hotel anything that they were not anticipating.

Even if it was ethical, before trading to someone else, you need to make sure that the coupon was not taken electronically. In many cases, an organization will give you a hard copy coupon but also create an electronic one. The hard copy is just to make you feel good but is never really used.

Maybe they decided to comp you without telling you. It happens.

If that's the case, trade away.

Otherwise, I'm sure someone can offer you some sleeping pills. ;)

use it or trade it... nuff said

Since this is not an actual offer/request for a trade of miles/points/certs, but is rather a discussion of practices related to such certs, I am going to move this to MilesBuzz where I think it is more apt.

cblaisd
Moderator, Coupon Connection

I knew someone who had done this once and know for a fact that this person had one year of purgatory added to his sentence.

However, the OP can help out by sending the coupon to me, and I will direct it to the proper authorities and use my contacts to get the additional year removed. ;)

I have actually had occasion to point out to an airline when upgrade certs were not properly removed from my account. And I was told not to worry about it. ^

I've also had occasions where too many certs were deducted, or a cert was deducted from me when gifting an upgrade and then from the gift recipient, and the process was too laborious to sort out and I wound out out a cert without benefit.

These things happen, and frankly they're too much trouble to chase down sometimes. They're best left to karma.

As dhammer53 says, you may well have been comp'd the upgrade. You might not have put one over on anyway. They may have decided they needed to upgrade someone so it might as well be you, no reason to take the cert when they were going to do an operational upgrade anyway. Or they might have decided that it was too difficult or time consuming to process the cert when they had other priorities.

Too many variables to lose sleep over these things. Sometimes we benefit, sometimes we lose, at least in my experience these things even out pretty well over time.

...
If you want to rationalize it you could always tell yourself that someone else out there who has an unused coupon probably won't use it. Therefore you are not costing the airline/hotel anything that they were not anticipating.

The airline/hotel is counting on a certain percentage of coupons not being redeemed so in fact you are costing them something.

On a bit of a tangent: of course companies count on a less than 100% coupon redemption rate but I just learned/realized that they count on a less than 100% redemption rate for pre-paid cards too! These are those cards you can buy as a present for someone, like a $25 gift card at Tower Records. Even though those were paid for in cash they aren't all redeemed. And people say only the Fed can print money. :)

One thing to consider before trading or giving it away. Does the coupon in question have a number or something like that to identify it and you gave that number when making the reservation. If they failed to collect it and then you give it to someone or trade it to someone and they try and use it and they are unable to as the "number" on the coupon shows it was used you may be in hot water with whom you gave it or traded it to.

If no such number or identifying marks exist then you were probably comped. So use it again or trade it or whatever. Just make sure you don't violate any rules or conditions on bartering or selling said certificate.

Use your best judgement and let your conscience be your guide.

My personal ethics allow me to reuse coupons that aren't collected because I don't bother to fight hard when I don't get the discount when the agent can't collect my coupon when I've used an online couponless coupon code and rejects my discount. I figure it evens out in the end.

think it shall be treated along the ways some properties advertise at the cash desk: "if we failed to give you receipt, the meal is on us".... same here.

To fill in a few blanks:

The coupon has no identifying code, and the issuer has no way to track it even to my account, since it was not originally issued to me in the first place.

I'm pretty sure, based on the specifics of the situation, that it was not comped. I've had that, happen, too, with Delta PMUs where I qualify for the upgrade on status alone, and so they don't even ask for the PMU certificate. In those cases, I have no problem keeping the PMU and using it again (or trying to... they're actually pretty difficult to use for domestic flights). But this situation was different.

And my thought was not to trade the coupon for any personal gain. I initially received the coupon as an outright gift via FT's Coupon Connection, and my thought was to offer it to someone else, for free. But I think I am sensing that at least some people also see the potential ethical problem that bothers me a bit...

I do not have a problem using the coupon again. If you do, you can always give it to me and I'll help out!

is there an issue out here that at least one FT won't have an issue with???

do what you feel like and don't worry about pleasing everyone.. someone is always offended at something.. so just do whatever makes you feel good

In situations such as this one, I just remind myself how many times I've been reamed by airlines when it comes to last minute ticketing and times when they've refused to accept a valid coupon, etc.

It really does all even out. In this instance, you are taking advantage of the airline. If you are a FF, I'm sure there are/will be numerous instances where they take advantage of you.

In short, all's fair. They didn't collect it. Use it. You didn't ask for this and you didn't intentionally try to avoid handing the coupon over.

in my case, there have been too many times where coupons and vouchers that should have worked did not. And then you have these ones that can only be redeemed in person at the airport. I once had to take an hour subway ride on 3 connecting trains, pay the fare each way, stand in line and present a coupon to United just to have then tell me a new rule made it invalid. But when I called on the phone earlier that day, no one told me of this so you can bet how pissed off I was!

I would totally take advantage of them and use it or trade it again without a doubt. Yes, with airlines and their silly rules and fine print, two wrongs DO make a right! Now, if I sold it or gave it to a friend and it did not work, I would feel obligated to give them their money back, but I would definitely use it. For my wife, we felt "made up to" when she had an upgrade voucher similar to the one of the original poster and they never took it at the first airport gate. So she got to fly Business class to Europe and back when the coupon was only suppose to work one way (on the outbound flights)

If I could have found a way to white out the date and write a new one on there, I would have done that too! Yep, for airline stuff, I do this stuff. I hate how airlines make us jump thru hoops. IN no other area of my life to I break rules of ethics or legality... Only with airlines.

I even made a stamp with the red box and numbers in it for RULE 240. That's the one where one airline endorses over a ticket to fly on another. If the ticket is stamped, you dont have to run between terminals and beg agents to help you while the other plane you want to be on is going to fly away. I used my stamp twice and it worked. If something ever happened, I would play dumb. I will never let anyone else use it. I dont care what people say. Airlines deserve to be going under. They are not fair. Only Starwood is fair. I would never do this type of stuff with anything they have. I dont go LOOKING for ways to be this person, but if the opportunity presents itself, I am all over it.
Screw em! Use the cupon! They should have hired better people to more efficiently run their systems and businesses that prevent things from being abused. Instead they lay off good people and then make us pay fees to book the way we always have, etc. Fees, fees, fees.

nuf said.
MM

After reading this you really don't have an ethics question.

An ethics question would examine whether something was right or wrong,
such as in this case - stealing. I refuse to believe that you don't know stealing is wrong.

It's really a "getting away with it" question. And if you can get away with something does that make it OK to do. It doesn't.

Stealing, from someone who has so much anyway, or is an evil empire, or who
"screwed you" once, or "no one will ever know" is still stealing. You are simply trying to justify your actions by deeds or misdeeds of others. The human mind is a wonderful thing. There is nothing too low that we can't justify.
So yes, you can be a thief and not feel bad.

You want to know if you can be comfortable lowering yourself? Then the masses have spoken: "go for it dude!".

Just let me know when you are away. See, if I can get together with your spouse, and you never find out about it..........

I initially received the coupon as an outright gift via FT's Coupon Connection, and my thought was to offer it to someone else, for free.

Since this is the case, I would recommend you contact the FT'er who gave it to you & see what they have to say about it. If you received it as a gift, you may want to consult with them.

In the past year, United has made more mistakes in my favor than against my favor. That said, it's not accurate to say that it all works out in the end. Therefore, every time I see miles in my account that should not be there, I cal UA and let the burden be on their shoulders. It's never been too hard to chase down. And whenever I am owed miles, I usually get them within days, if not minutes.

When it comes to upgrade vouchers, I will never understand the pyschology on FT! After all, the airline has already given us the free upgrade. And yet so often we want two upgrades (in other words, we want them not to remove the free coupon so we can use it in the future). Doesn't make sense to me.

So, in my not so humble point of view, I do think it is unethical to use the coupon. I would mail it back with a note saying, "Perhaps a charity can use it."

I like bhatnasx' idea. But the original FTer's intent in making the gift was that I use it for its intended purpose, which I have done. Ultimately, I've concluded that Thumper has expressed my thoughts most concisely. I had posted the question for two reasons, the first of which was seeking precisely the clarity that Thumper provides above.

I don't know enough about Buddhism to be sure of this, but if it's worth its standing as a major religion/philosophy, I suspect Buddhists would say it's an improper application of the principle of karma to advocate cheating someone because I've been cheated. That was never my intention or motivation, but the discussion of that aspect has helped me see the situation clearly.

The other purpose in posting the question was to find out if there were important considerations I was missing. And it turns out there was at least one. I had not considered the possibility that the coupon provider might prefer that it be used again in order to promote business they might not otherwise receive. So I may call the coupon provider and find out their thoughts about it. However, they don't just leave these coupons out for anyone to take, so I doubt they'll want it to be reused.

And while I disagree with most of what Marathon Man says above, the interesting twist is that the coupon is a Starwood coupon. So even MM is arguing that it should not be reused.

All in all, it's a lot of wind to blow about a pretty insignificant monetary value, but if we're unfaithful in the little things, there's no hope for the big ones.

I appreciate the input from everyone, and I hope the discussion has been of some value to others besides just me.

I may call the coupon provider and find out their thoughts about it. However, they don't just leave these coupons out for anyone to take, so I doubt they'll want it to be reused.
I would assume the opposite. My guess is that they will thank you for your honesty, and tell you to go right ahead and use it again.

My personal ethics allow me to reuse coupons that aren't collected because I don't bother to fight hard when I don't get the discount when the agent can't collect my coupon when I've used an online couponless coupon code and rejects my discount. I figure it evens out in the end.


:D

Just let me know when you are away. See, if I can get together with your spouse, and you never find out about it..........

that is, if she would go with you... She may not.

that is, if she would go with you... She may not.


only if she has sufficiently low standards, but I can hope....

only if she has sufficiently low standards, but I can hope....

;) I'll ask her fer ya...

hee hee hee
(for a trade of decent award stays of course, with another woman!)

;) I'll ask her fer ya...

hee hee hee
(for a trade of decent award stays of course, with another woman!)

GOOD NEWS! My mother says OK.

Of course my wife may still kill me, but a deal is a deal. ^

I don't know enough about Buddhism to be sure of this, but if it's worth its standing as a major religion/philosophy, I suspect Buddhists would say it's an improper application of the principle of karma to advocate cheating someone because I've been cheated.

It's Hinduism of which Karma is an element. And identifying with the idea of the action (without actually taking the action) results in the same 'Karmic debt' as actually taking the action. In order words, you're already guilty.

IMHO, a Buddhist lesson would be along the lines of...
The Zen one finds while flying at 33,000 feet is nothing more than the Zen one brings up there with one. :confused:

After reading this you really don't have an ethics question.

An ethics question would examine whether something was right or wrong,
such as in this case - stealing. I refuse to believe that you don't know stealing is wrong.

But...it is common in the airline industry for agents to purposely fail to collect stickers/certs for upgrades. There was one US Airways agent at MCI always took one 800-mile certificate from me for MCI-DCA, a 930-mile flight. I always offered her two because I didn't want to take it for granted, but she always tore one off and handed it back. If I only had one cert on me I wouldn't request an upgrade...kinda felt guilty about it. :) Anyway, I don't regard failure to collect certs as stealing and I don't think that's just my human mind sinking to a low, low level. It's the way the airlines do business. (On the DCA end, they took two certs for the same 930-mile segment. CLT demanded two certs on an 807-mile segment, so I know there is no formal grace period built in to the certs.)

If you are lying about the certs you have or otherwise trying to game the system, then yes that's a different story. But in the OP's case, we don't know whether he was actively trying to game the system or exploit a loophole - or if the agent simply didn't take the cert from him.

The second part of the post - selling certificates - I have no problem with. I know the airlines do not like it. I do not sell my certificates, points, or miles because I like to use them. But I don't have an ethical problem with people who do, as long as they are candid about it. If somebody had a cert I needed, I would probably buy it off of eBay if I felt that was a good value.

It's Hinduism of which Karma is an element. And identifying with the idea of the action (without actually taking the action) results in the same 'Karmic debt' as actually taking the action. In order words, you're already guilty.


Well if you're already guilty, I say you might as well use it.

It's Hinduism of which Karma is an element. And identifying with the idea of the action (without actually taking the action) results in the same 'Karmic debt' as actually taking the action. In order words, you're already guilty.

Well if you're already guilty, I say you might as well use it.Well if you're already guilty, I say you might as well use it.

Forgive me for not knowing all of this kind of thing, but am I to understand that there actually ARE factions out there that would actually say someone is wrong just for THINKING of doing something even if they never really go through with it?

I actually ran into that recently in another issue and I believe that is way to Nazi-like for me. I think someone can imagine or think of just about anything they wish to, but if some over zealous jerk comes along and tries to bust you just for coming up with it--or even publishing it--then where are we all headed? And in that case, yeah, use the cert because they'll bag ya anyway now that you brought it up! They'll track you down and source your name from this forum or something and then they will take your house and wife, and the next thing you know, you are out on the street begging for nickles, or worse yet, you may be writhing at the bottom of a smelly pit confounded to eternal perril as a half man, half dog beast much like what happened to the transporter executive in the last version of THE FLY movie with Jeff Goldbloom & Gina Davis or somethin'... (it was on cable last nite as I fell asleep thinkin' up with other wild sh*t)

:)MM

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. When you say you have a coupon, it is their job to collect it. I think it would be unethical to say you had it and then didn't, but then again you have to let your conscience be the judge. I wouldn't think it was a major worry if it happened. How many people have been bumped and re-routed and received elite qualifying miles when they were on a ticket that didn't give it. With the complex systems in place, it might do you more harm than good. If you show extra loyalty to the coupon's issuer, I think that is a good trade-off.