Dollar - My First and Last Near-Rental Experience at Dollar

Arranged a nice trip to upstate New York with the girlfriend last weekend - 4 star hotel, leisurely drive, dinner, the works. That's the kind of guy I am. A giver.

Planned on renting a car here in Toronto and driving down (we're subway folks in town - no wheels of our own). I am usually a strict Avis or Hertz kinda guy, about 20 rentals a year with each, but since NW has a great mileage promo going on right now that would give me 1500 miles for a 2-day, $20/day rental with Dollar, I decide to give them a try. Booked online two weeks out. Looks good.

Get to the counter on Saturday morning and I get a little nervous. Have to wait in line behind not one, not two, but three people who are disputing liability for various damage to their cars upon their return. Still, I have hope. When I present myself for pickup, however, my heart sinks; the lady informs me that since I am a local renter, the deposit on my Visa will be $1000, not $350 as I had expected.

Huh? Avis, my main rental company, loves it when I take a vehicle off their hands for the weekend. Heck, they have a special club for local renters that tracks their activity and awards a free weekend for every three paid weekend rentals at their home airport. Not Dollar.

Anyway, I'm not the kind of guy who has a spare grand to put on hold... would have put a major dent in my weekend. So I told Dollar thanks but no thanks, and got a nice $30/day mid-size from Avis with no prior reservation.

Thank you, Dollar YYZ, for preventing what I'm sure would have been a big mistake.

Is that a Canadian thing with the deposit requirement? Never heard of a deposit on a rental car before. My brother rented from Dollar in SAC a few weeks ago. Got an amazing rate, I guess everyone else going to SAC knew about the rate because there were at least 15 people in the line, while Avis, Hertz, Budget had one or two folks. Tough to beat $18.99/day.

Were you using the Visa card as a debit card? I rent from Dollar weekly and never have had a deposit placed on my AMEX card. I know that most rental car agencies dot his when you use a debit card.

Were you using the Visa card as a debit card? I rent from Dollar weekly and never have had a deposit placed on my AMEX card. I know that most rental car agencies dot his when you use a debit card.

Nope, regular Visa CC. I'm not opposed to the idea of a hold, I understand incidental charges come up and the rental company doesn't want to be left high and dry. But at Hertz it is equal to the planned cost of the rental plus $100... at Avis it's between $200-300 (the majority of my rentals are 1-2 days).

As this was a 2-day rental for a compact at $19 a day, the hold represented 5000% of the daily rate. That's crazy. And I still fail to see where there is excess risk in renting to local customers...

Dollar locations are mostly franchised and as such they mess tons of things up. They all make their own rules and each employee can personally screw you at any time.

Three weeks ago in Boston we showed up at the rental counter with a "Premium Car" reservation, using my FastLane profile. Well they didn't have a car ready and tried to get me to pay an extra $69 a day for an Escalade. I told them no, but after waiting 15 min without our regular "Premium" car, I agreed to the $69 a day extra. Wouldn't you know it, after all was said and done and the contracts were filled out, she wanted to hold $3000 on my card for her Escalade.

I told her to forget it and get me another car. I told her she should give us the free upgrade since I've been waiting so long and they didn't have my car available. She insulted me by saying that "For most people, $3K is no big deal" Yeah right...

It took over 45 min to get a car from those morons, and that was after I demaded she give me the next car available, regardless of what it was. Good thing it was a Chrysler Sebring Convertible and not a Dodge Grand Caravan.

I rent about 3 weeks a month, and I've had it with Dollar. They are truly the worst rental company, and Thrifty is not far behind. If you're lucky to show up at a corporate location, then you're fine, but if you get one their franchise locations, kiss courtesy and common sense behind! A bunch of monkeys could run a better rental company. Their FastLane program is a joke. When they say FastLane, they mean IH-35 fast lane in TX with 25 Semi truks hogging the "Fast Lane" at 45 mph!

Thank god for companies like Avis that actually care about the people that give them most of their business. Free upgrades for those that rent most often, and a no questions asked, 100% satisfaction guarantee!

I had a terrible experience with Dollar at MCO (Orlando airport). See this thread http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372216.

Thanks,
David

I've been hit or miss with Dollar in the past, but I still don't like having to do a vehicle inspection and write everything down myself (why don't they as least do the secretarial work??) to get the car out of the lot when I am often in a hurry.

Last year I got a call from Dollar security department. They asked me to return their car. At that time I was not renting. WOW! what a surprise.

It turns out that someone with the same first and last name as mine rented in Texas and did not return it in 30 days. That guy's contract has my information on it, including DOB, addresses and driver's license number. I guess Dollar at Texas pulled up my information using my Fasttrack profile and put on that guy's contract AND THEY DID NOT VERIFY THAT GUY's information while letting their car away. A simple check of driver's license and DOB will find out this error.

This is serious infringement of my personal information.

This could potentially make me liable for their rental vehicle.

This scared me a lot, since I know their whatever fasttrack program can let one to rent a vehicle without a signature.

I talked with the security department for about 30 minutes and find out what has happened.

No apology given. Their attitude is that I was wrong because I have the same name.

One guy at security department promised me a call back after they have sorted things out, but I didn't receive any call.

This happened on Dec 26 last year, while people are enjoying their Christmas. I was scared by Dollar.

Since then, never stepped a foot in any Dollar locations.

I am told that some rental companies put an unexpectedly large hold on your credit card credit limit without telling you. The best way around this is having more than one credit card.

If I had the credit limit available (I never use and do not recommend debit cards for this) I would gladly put up with a $1000. deposit for a $20. per day rental rather than a no deposit $30. per day rental.

>>> someone in Texas renting under your name

I don't think they could hold you liable when you weren't even there in Texas.

I'd be tempted to write higher ups in the company asking for this and that including some free rental vouchers (for their flippant attitude), an apology, and also a phone call ffrom security as they promised.

Then re-send the letter periodically until you get answers -- and the phone call.

Travel tips:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/travel.htm

Let's imagine the (Texas) situation was just plain old identity theft. Then not only is the driver (the identity thief) to blame but so is Dollar for failing to assume the complainer (whose identity was taken) is totally innocent utnil investigation is done.

Their Fastrack speedy-rental program is useless, because franchisees decide for themselves whether they're going to feature it. So it's promoted nationally but Dollar corporate has no control over whether you'll actually have the experience. A couple of years ago, I remember, it wasn't available in Boston, for goodness' sakes.

Wow. Finally I understand.

I've rented from Dollar many times, and never had a problem.
(I'll never forget renting a Sebring ragtop for $13.99 a day.)
But I keep hearing stories like yours. How can both be right?

The answer is I've never rented from a Dollar franchise.
All the locations in Las Vegas are corporate.

And honestly, is there any industry in which franchise stores are operated up to corporate standards, or just frankly don't suck?

"If any a**hole can own a Subway, then any a**hole will."

[QUOTE=Bidkat]Wow. Finally I understand.

I've rented from Dollar many times, and never had a problem.
(I'll never forget renting a Sebring ragtop for $13.99 a day.)
But I keep hearing stories like yours. How can both be right?

The answer is I've never rented from a Dollar franchise.
All the locations in Las Vegas are corporate.

And honestly, is there any industry in which franchise stores are operated up to corporate standards, or just frankly don't suck?

Is the DFW facility corporate?

Best

Wow. Finally I understand.

I've rented from Dollar many times, and never had a problem.
(I'll never forget renting a Sebring ragtop for $13.99 a day.)
But I keep hearing stories like yours. How can both be right?

The answer is I've never rented from a Dollar franchise.
All the locations in Las Vegas are corporate.

And honestly, is there any industry in which franchise stores are operated up to corporate standards, or just frankly don't suck?

"If any a**hole can own a Subway, then any a**hole will."

most corporate HQ will do a smackdown on the francisee if it doesnt meet standards or if enough comlaints just take it away. i remember working at a franchisee place and they were always scared of HeadOffice people comming or would sh!t their pants if a customer said they are gonna complain to head office.

at avis, if your rental, including all fees and elective coverages, is lets say...350.00....the hold usually is 360.00. They usually add 10.00 to the estimate and get a hold on your CCARD for that amount. This number is consistent for rentals with unlimited mileage. If your rental has X number of miles free and .30 per mile after that...the hold increases dependent upon the number of days. All of this is done in the background.


1000 dollar hold on ccard for a weekend rental?

what a crock. I had that happen to me before i started working for avis and I was none to pleased. right ther at the counter, I asked them why 1k, they said "because of a formula based on the cars value, estimated charges, blah blah blah."

Out comes my cell phone, standing there in line mind you, and I asked the agent what the complaint number is for dollar. She gave it to me. Standing there in line I gave Dollar an earful. When they asked me to stand aside, I told them "I am talking to a dollar agent right now, I have every right to be at this counter."

Out comes the station manager. I explained how pitiful their policy was, and she waived it for me as long as I "prepaid" for the rental immediately via credit card.

I then asked for the district managers name and number. She gave it to me. I dialed right in front of her.

long story short, 5 people walked out of line and went to hertz and avis while I was there, and I got the car comp. And a letter asking me to never rent at dollar again.

not that I miss the privlidge. And Dollar offered me a job too. I opted out of that "bargain."

Before you sign off from Dollar forever (and I am NOT a Dollar employee), look at the forums here for Avis, Hertz, Alamo, National, Budget, Payless and Thrifty (oh, and Enterprise--see http://www.failingenterprise.com). EVERY ONE has complaints from people who will "never rent a car from [company] again." Every location is different: the bend-over-backwards Budget in Birmingham will be the the big bad one in Bismark, and the helpful hats-off Hertz in Honolulu will be the heavy-handed harmful one in Harrisburg. (OK, sorry for the alliteration.) And vice versa. Even different times at the same location may yield different results--perhaps a cranky employee was fired the next day because of his unacceptable behavior. Don't let one bad apple spoil the basket.


And honestly, is there any industry in which franchise stores are operated up to corporate standards, or just frankly don't suck?

In my experience, it's been exactly the opposite. Our rental car location is franchised, and we consistently place in the top percentile for customer satisfaction (there are many plaques and trophies on our two owners' desks). Conversely, the corporate stores are, from what I've heard, plagued with unprofitability, uncaring management and a non-proud culture.

We're family-owned and -operated, and we really care about how we treat our customers. (We get a lot of return business, and we depend on them to carry us through the non-tourist season.) I'm not just looking through rose-colored glasses: we really try our hardest to treat customers well.

However...

Try to see things from the rental company's perspective. Car rentals are not a high-profit business. First of all, look at this: it costs $50 to rent a $500 chainsaw. It costs $60 to rent a $350 tuxedo. It costs $19.99 to rent a $20,000 car.

What the heck? Even if you don't factor in inflation, car rentals cost less today than they did 10 or even 20 years ago. Counting inflation, rates have dropped by 50% or more in that time period. Competition is fierce, and rental companies are increasingly having to scrape the bottom line just to survive.

A lot of time is wasted by rental companies pursuing payment of damaged cars, parking tickets, or even on overdue cars on which the credit card declines. Any deadbeat with even a $500-limit Visa Classic can rent a $30,000 Cadillac and promptly run it into a telephone pole, wreaking havoc for the accounting office as they pursue neverending fights with insurance companies who refuse to pay, so-called credit card "coverage" that doesn't do diddly-squat, write ever more, er, persuasive letters and eventually send the bill off to collections. People rent cars to do drug deals, drive recklessly, come from overseas, or any number of things that could easily snatch $15,000 out of the rental company's checking account. We were once sued because we didn't provide a child seat to a family whose newborn was injured in a car accident while in one of our cars. We didn't even know the mother was pregnant (she was in town to go to the hospital to give birth), since the father rented the car and didn't say anything about a wife or kid.

With all of that out there, it's no wonder that many locations have stringent rental requirements, especially for local renters. I know our local Alamo/National franchise will only rent with a debit card if the customer has a return flight ticket (effectively banning locals from using debit cards) for this very reason. We don't accept debit cards at all, both because we feel that a customer should prove themselves trustworthy before we effectively loan them $20,000 worth of metal, plastic and glass and also for various technical reasons with how debit card authorizations are handled differently than credit card ones (basically, they expire in 3 days, leaving the rental company hanging if the customer drains his or her checking account).

So, while we wouldn't do such a thing, a $1000 authorization for a local renter doesn't shock me. We do require the amount of rental plus $150 (we actually usually charge the rental and place a separate $150 authorization), as an added buffer...in case. Just recently I tried to rent a car to a lady whose three credit cards were maxed out. We called the bank and asked for authorization extensions (which were denied), and it turns out her card had one dollar less than the rental total available. Say that she had one dollar more on her card than the rental total, and I had been able to get a charge or an authorization for the rental amount (and we didn't have our $150 authorization policy). Then, say she kept the car an extra day or forgot to fill it up. We try to charge the balance, and it declines. What do we do then? Talk about hassle. (I ended up calling a friend who works at a competitor that doesn't do the additional authorization, and she was able to rent from them.)

Besides, I don't understand what the complaint is: I'm 20 years old and I have $32,000 available credit between a few Visa Signature and American Express cards. If I can get that at age 20, I don't want to hear the sad tales from folks who only have a debit card or whose cards are maxed out. That's being financially irresponsible. If you're so close to the top that you don't even have a $200 buffer, you need help, and we shouldn't rent a car to you. (OK, that's what I tell myself now when I'm not at work. Most of the time, that is, in the heat of the moment, I do feel a little sorry for them and go well out of my way to see what I can do.)

Now, as long as the person treats me with respect, I'll be happy to help them in any way I can. If my gut tells me the person's honest and trustworthy, I may be able to slightly bend our policies to accommodate them, or I'll helpfully point them over to one of my friends at other companies (I'm friends with pretty much everyone at the other counters--we have to live with each other every day, so we might as well make the best of it) that accept debit cards or are willing to take more risky business. If the customer cusses me out and screams about how our debit card policy is crappy or how they shouldn't have to prove themselves creditworthy or that it's not fair that we don't have their car and they're 16 hours late for their reservation, all of my helpfulness goes out of the window. I usually hold my tongue, but I reserve the right to refuse service. (Only once have I told someone outright that she was an angry, bitter person whom I felt sorry for, and only a couple of other times have I engaged a customer and told him to grow up and not make such vicious personal attacks against my character. I promptly called all of my friends at the other agencies. Suffice it to say: he did not get a car that day. Don't get on my bad side.)

The same goes for everyone else at the other companies near mine. We all compare notes on the day's crabbiest (or stupid) customers. We all share the happiness of friendly airline pilots who tell stories of Singapore and Antarctica. We all pitch in to give directions to obscure hotels and towns (that's my territory) or good restaurants or must-see sights or whatever. And we protect each other: more than once, someone has treated my good friends at my neighboring company like dirt and then tried to come rent from me. Most of the time, I'll just quote an exorbitant rate ($149 a day compacts?) to discourage their business (why would I want to put myself on the line to deal with a difficult customer?), but once I did get up enough courage to say, "Sorry, I don't work with difficult customers." Wow.

Yes, there are times when we mess up. We're human. We own it and try to fix it as best we can. Unfortunately, some people are angry, bitter, vindictive jerks who refuse to calm down and see the situation as it is. We don't overbook on purpose: sometimes the reservation center just sends us a boatload of reservations before we can fax in the block paperwork. Usually a third of the people don't show up for their cars, so things are OK. Sometimes everyone comes in at once. Yelling and screaming at me aren't going to work: I'm not a magician. When we don't have anything, I can't make cars appear out of thin air. I will try my best to get you a car as quickly as possible. I hate making you wait more than you hate waiting. I call my shop and yell at them to get their rear ends in gear and bring me cars--"break the speed limit if you have to, but I have customers waiting." When you're on my side, I'm on your side. I'm an advocate for my customers. I will bend policies if I have to (only with good reason). I will spend my off hours pursuing resolutions for problems. Yes, computer billing errors happen. Sometimes it's something I can fix. Sometimes I have to wait and have management fix it--not because I don't want to, but because I have rules, too, or my security authorization isn't great enough. Sometimes it's a problem that national headquarters deserves blame for and our franchise can't afford to take it out of our pockets. But believe me, I will take the time to see the issue to completion. I've faxed letters to customer care, called Expedia and Travelocity, spent hours on hold with airlines, and sent long emails on my days off. But you're not going to get that aspect of me if you're calling me a mother ****** or standing in front of my counter on the phone with headquarters yelling about how we screwed you.

Sometimes things happen that are out of our control. We get an inordinate number of complaints from people angry at the airport's layout (here, it's about a four-minute walk to the cars). Look, people, we'd change it if we could. We can't. We don't like it either. But I can't give you a free day for something I can't change.

And yes, because of the way the airport is laid out, I can't do a walk-around of the vehicle with you. We're understaffed as is, and I thought you wanted low rates. (The cost of a $10-per-hour lot agent would turn out to be $30 per hour after benefits, worker's comp, and other ancillary expenses.) Our service agents have already done a quick look for major damages, and that's all we're really concerned about. But sometimes they miss things when the car's still wet or whatever. I let you call me over the phone and tell me you saw a chip in the windshield--if you tell me in a timely fashion. I'm trusting. We're trusting. Yes, you could ding it up and then call it in, but I believe the best about my customers and don't think that they would do that. What's wrong about doing things this way?

Having said all of that, I know that things happen occasionally that are completely inexcusable. The deal with the Escalade and $3,000 hold is beyond acceptable. That deserves a strong argument or complaint, yes, but not a screaming fight in public. I've never seen anything quite as bad as the people above have relayed, but I have to say, there will always be people who are completely unpleasable no matter what we do. I'm not disputing the validity of their complaints. But policies exist for a reason. If you don't like it, go somewhere else, but do you really need to create a scene? That's pretty narrow-minded and selfish of you. On the flip side, it looks like YYZC2 handled it in a pretty professional manner. Thanks. I appreciate that.

Now, to be fair to those telling the above stories, our local Dollar franchise is known for heavy sales techniques and, well, in their own terms, "screwing customers." Actually, most of the employees there are pretty nice and helpful, but they operate on a fat commission system that drives them to sell harder than I find comfortable. A couple of them are a little less, er, friendly, and their administrative office often doesn't take the customer's side. From what I've seen, the blame usually isn't 100% Dollar's (stupid customers are always a factor in these equations, it seems), but where we would probably just waive whatever and get on with life, they are a little less forgiving. Still, they have the dirt-cheapest rates, so if you want value every time, and if you're not a jerk or an idiot, you're probably safe.

OK, I've said enough. I hope you found this "insider's peek" valuable.

~Jackal

I read in this month's Auto Rental News (probably the industry's most prominent magazine) an interesting article on Capps Van and Car Rental in Texas. Its business model is completely different from that of all of the major national brands.

First of all, it's completely customer-service oriented. (Well, that's the impression I get after reading the article in the magazine. I hope the magazine practices fair journalistic principles.) Dave Capps, the owner and president, says his company concentrates on things that the national brands won't or can't do. From the magazine: "That means guaranteeing that when a customer reserves a particular vehicle, that vehicle is ready to go when a customer arrives at the counter. If the vehicle booked is a van, that van's seating configuration will match what the customer requested at the time of the reservation." They'll even bring cars from other locations and even other cities if they need.

The magazine asks, "But does making such a guarantee result in lower utilization rates?" (Guaranteeing reservations is dangerous because of the ridiculously high no-show rate, which is why most majors don't do it.)

Capps says (as quoted in the magazine): "Utilization is important for any car rental company....But we tend to look more at revenue per unit. If you have 100% utilization but you're charging $10 per day, you're not doing well."

Therein lies the industry's first problem. It's basically turning into a case like the major air carriers, except car rentals don't have the federal government to bail them out. All the cars are rented, but they're not making much money. Competition is so fierce that prices keep dropping. I'm convinced that it won't be too far in the future before we see both the airline and car rental fields slimmed down to fewer offerings. (Now, before you complain and say that with prices already at rock bottom, companies should start competing on service, think of the airlines: everyone is always complaining about how a particular airline--and yes, every one has its complainers--has screwed them over something. It's simply not possible to maintain excellent service when you're losing money: you have to cut your losses, meaning cutting employees and not being generous.)

That dovetails with the next point in the article: incremental sales. (That's industry-speak for anything a rental agent can add on to the contract, from upgrades, coverages and gas to additional drivers, car seats and cell phones.) The major companies rely on and push these items so much (some more than others) because they're NOT making any money renting cars out at $15 a day. (I once heard a consultant say that incremental revenue is sometimes the only thing keeping many companies afloat.)

Capps' view is different. The magazine: "Though agents are trained to offer damage waivers and supplemental liability insurance, they don't pursue a sale further after a customer's initial no....[Capps] also thinks many customers are turned off by aggressive sales tactics at the counter. 'If we have to make our profit off selling damage waivers and insurance products, we're in the wrong business,' Capps says."

Personally, I like that. I don't like being agressive. It's taken me two years to get comfortable "recommending" coverages to customers, and I still don't like "overcoming their objections." But I have to translate Capps' statements into the reality that his prices are going to have to be MUCH higher in order to maintain a profit.

That brings me to the third difference. Again, the magazine: "What's more, Capps has rejected the use of revenue management systems in favor of simply offering peak and off-peak rates....Capps says he has forgone revenue management because many of his customers perceive dramatic rate swings as unfair and arbitrary."

Again, that sounds good on the surface to the customer, but think of it: that means that off-peak, a small car might start at $35 a day. Peak, it might be $50. Yes, it's not a big swing, and it's certainly more fair to the everyone involved, but there's no way you (as a customer) will ever find $9.99 weekend specials at a place like this. I don't know his pricing scheme off the top of my head, but I wouldn't be surprised if I were close.

I think Capps' model is going to be the ultimate test of whether customers are willing to pay a premium for top-of-the-line customer service and guaranteed availability without hassle. I think not: my friends at Dollar say, "They complain about our cars or our bad service and swear they're never going to rent from us again. But they come right back, tail between their legs, when we're by far the cheapest."

The other reason I think his model won't take the nation by storm is because it's not working for us. In all honesty, the managers at my rental location operate a business model very similar to Capps'. We want to offer the best customer service possible, don't try to be pushy, and don't cut our rates down to the bare bone. We're often not the cheapest in town, and consequently, our fleet utility in the off-season hovers around 20%. Hence, we don't make any money. Our managers are slowly considering changing our model to the more cutthroat model used by Dollar, Enterprise (who claims to be a "service-oriented company" but is really worse than anyone else in this area) and the others. It's the only way we won't go under. It's unfortunate, but people just won't pay for service.

To be fair, Capps Van and Car Rental IS turning a profit. Perhaps it's because his brand has a reputation that our national brand doesn't, and so he attracts a clientele that we can't attract no matter how hard we try. His business also serves a niche market, while we're trying to win our bread in a hybrid local/tourist environment.

Don't get me wrong--I like the ideals Capps holds. If I ever move to Texas, I'd certainly consider applying for a job there. (Their commission structure is based on customer service, not sales, and I'd MUCH prefer working under that type of an environment.) It just doesn't work for us, and I don't think the larger traveling public would pay the premium.

It'll be interesting to see where this leads.

(Another note: the article will be posted here (http://www.fleet-central.com/arn/t_inside.cfm?action=article) in a month or so. (The website archive is a month or two behind the magazine's published date.) Look it up--the title of the article is "Score One for Texan Independence"--it has some other interesting points about corporate accounts and other things. Take a peek around the beginning of July.)

What bothers me is the amount of the authorizations taken is usually more than the montly cost of lease on the vehicle... especially since when the vehicles hit 25k miles, off they go to auction. Where else can you get a 1 year old Chrysler 300 Touring for $10k?

jackal, thanks for your post. One point of disagreement though. Credit card coverage is more than adequate, at least from the renter's perspective.

I rent about 50 times a year and always use either a Visa or Amex card to pay for the rental. Obviously, I decline the CDW/LDW as for me, my credit card provides primary loss damage insurance to all rentals, up to $50,000 (I drive an older car and have dropped the collision/comp coverage on it). I had two claims last year, one with Visa and one with Amex, and both made prompt and full payment for the damage, loss of use, and even half of the "administrative fee," to the rental agency.

As of March 1, 2004, ALL US-issued Visa credit cards (though not most Visa debit cards) include rental CDW at no charge. Even those $500 "starter" or secured Visa cards have it. So your agency is put at little risk by renting to anyone with a Visa credit card, as long as you verify that the name on the card matches the name on the rental agreement (i.e. card not stolen). Mercury International, a reputable California insurance company, handles the CDW for Visa.

I don't think I could ever in good faith sell CDW to renters, since in nearly all cases it duplicates the existing coverage they have on their credit card, and/or their personal auto policy.

I don't rent much from Dollar anymore now that I've discovered National's Emerald Club. The process at National is painless---take the bus to the rental lot, hop in the car of your choice, show your credit card, driver's license and Emerald Club card to the exit booth agent, and you're on the road. None of those annoying "do you want the basic coverage or full coverage" questions. No excessive deposits on your credit card. No damage walkaround. No waiting in line.

National also doesn't charge an under-25 fee if you're renting under a corporate contract, even for non-business rentals. I'm 23 and this helps tremendously.

I'm curious, jackal, does your employer let you rent vehicles from them considering you're only 20? If not, they certainly should. :) The underage fees and, in the case of Avis and Hertz, flat-out denial of renters under 25, are discriminatory, as in most states a renter's personal insurance provides primary coverage. I plan to sue Hertz in a few months to fight this discrimination. As long as the rental agency can verify a renter's liability, collision, and comprehensive coverage (the latter two through credit cards as well as an auto insurance policy), it is put at no extra financial risk by renting to anyone 18 or over. The only places where there's a higher risk and the underage fees are justified are states such as New York, which requires the owner of the car (i.e. Hertz) to provide primary liability coverage. New York and Michigan have taken the lead on rental car age discrimination suits, and both states now mandate all rental agencies to rent to adults 18+ (though with extra fees due to liability laws). I hope to effect a similar change in California and other states where rental agencies either do not provide, or provide secondary, liability coverage.

Wahooflyer,

Thanks for the reply.

First, do you pay for American Express's primary CDW coverage ($25 per rental to make it primary)? As far as I know, even AmEx's Platinum cards only provide secondary coverage unless you enroll in the $25-per-rental option. Second, is your Visa card a Visa business card? Visa business cards provide primary CDW coverage, but consumer Visas are secondary to any existing coverage. The only American consumer card to include primary CDW coverage is Diners Club. (None provides liability.) Also, there's still plenty of MasterCard users who aren't covered, and all credit cards void their coverage if you don't put the entire bill on one card.

If both claims were paid with no hassle to you, then you've been lucky. Personally, I was on the same page as you at first about the value of CDW coverage (rental industries usually refer to it as LDW, since technically the term CDW refers only to collision and wouldn't include loss-of-use fees, towing charges, tire and glass damages, administrative fees, etc.). It's hard to sell what you don't believe in, and consequently I didn't feel comfortable recommending the coverage to renters. The thing that turned my attitude around was when I happened across a fax from MasterCard denying payment on a customer's damages because of some little technicality (I think the renter hadn't called it in within 48 hours or something). From that moment on, I realized customers could not rely on their credit cards as anything other than a possible bonus.

My attitude further developed after being involved in a few minor accidents in my own car. As the owner of my car, I can decide whether or not to fix damages that occur to my car. If I get a crack in the windshield or someone dings me in a parking lot hit-and-run, I can decide to leave it there if I can't afford to fix it. If I decide to fix it, I can make arrangements to find a cheap windshield at a junkyard and have a friend install it, or I can take it to a body/glass shop and have it done right.

If something happens to my rental car, I'm going to be forced to pay for the damages, and I'm going to pay top dollar because the rental agency (due to damage fixing requirements on leased vehicles) is going to want it done professionally (no "we'll just hammer the sheet metal out to save money"). And to top it all off, my already high insurance rates (even though I have never filed a claim, gotten a moving violation, and don't have comp/collision) could go up even more if I filed a claim for $12,000 worth of damages to a Cadillac STS. (Oh, and many credit cards don't cover luxury cars or SUVs.) And to top it all off, then you have to spend time and energy fighting with your insurance company to pay the bill.

So, I decided that if I ever rented a car, I would purchase the LDW. My own belief in the product lead me to feel comfortable selling it. I understand people's objections to it--yes, it is expensive, especially compared to normal insurance (though it's not too bad if you consider what it costs to purchase zero-deductible comp/collision). And yes, you might be all right without it. If you're willing to take the risk, then great--I don't mind. But it just takes one time. Especially when driving on dangerous roads or in an unfamiliar area, I think most people are better served by just having the peace of mind that they're not responsible for the car. Look, I'm not trying to convince everyone to buy LDW (though if everyone did, It'd certainly help me pay off these college bills!)--I'm just trying to tell everyone that it's not the complete, worthless rip-off that I keep hearing it referred to as.

Anyway, that leads me to your set of questions regarding underage issues. First of all, no, they don't let 21-year-olds rent cars. However, my 21st birthday is in 2 hours, and I plan on celebrating not by drinking but instead by renting a nice car tomorrow. (We do have an employee rate, and they don't charge employees underage fees. However, we're not allowed to purchase LDW, as management has seen too many employees go out and purposefully drive the cars carelessly and damage them after purchasing LDW.) Interesting that you say your Avis denies underage drivers--the Avis in my locale not only accepts underage drivers, they also don't charge an underage fee. Wow.

I did know that New York requires rental agencies to rent to anyone over 18. However, I also know that 18-21-year-olds have to pay an exorbitant underage surcharge--somewhere in the neighborhood of $75 per day. I thought this was just due to market forces or increased operating costs (due to more damaged cars or more expensive insurance costs). I didn't know that New York was an "S" state (one that requires rental companies to provide liability insurance).

It's interesting to note, too, that our local Avis provides state-minimum liability insurance to all renters at no additional cost even though state laws don't require it. Now that's trying harder.

Even as an employee, I'm not convinced that many of the fees charged by rental agencies are valid. First of all, the now-ubiquitous VLF, which supposedly covers the car's registration, is ridiculous. That's part of the cost of doing business. (I can see rental agencies someday charging a LPF of $10 per day--a "lease payment fee--to recuperate the cost of leasing the vehicles.) I think that this stems from the intense competition in the rental industry--rates are driven to rock bottom, and rental companies are forced to invent "fees" to recuperate their losses. Additional driver fees are bogus--it doesn't cost the rental agency anything to list a second driver. And I guess it can be argued that underage fees really aren't valid for the reason that you outlined: there's no additional financial responsibility on the company as long as the renter carries full-coverage insurance. But then again, sometimes those insurance companies and credit cards decline payment on damages, and we have to set up a payment plan with the renter directly. If the renter ignores us or refuses to pay the bill, we're forced to send the bill to collections, and we may lose several thousand dollars. So, there *is* increased risk when renting to younger and more irresponsible people.

Regarding National's Emerald Club--most rental agencies have similar programs. Budget has Fastbreak, and most major airport locations offer a similar pick-your-car-and-show-your-ID-at-the-gate system. Dollar has Fastlane and Thrifty has BlueChip, which both preprint your rental agreement ahead of time according to your preferences, and rental agents are forbidden from trying to sell any daily extras. And those three programs are free, unlike Hertz and National, which, as far as I know, have enrollment fees.

Think that covers everything...

Anyway, that leads me to your set of questions regarding underage issues. First of all, no, they don't let 21-year-olds rent cars. However, my 21st birthday is in 2 hours, and I plan on celebrating not by drinking but instead by renting a nice car tomorrow. (We do have an employee rate, and they don't charge employees underage fees. However, we're not allowed to purchase LDW, as management has seen too many employees go out and purposefully drive the cars carelessly and damage them after purchasing LDW.) Interesting that you say your Avis denies underage drivers--the Avis in my locale not only accepts underage drivers, they also don't charge an underage fee. Wow.

A little OT, but an interesting read for the last three posts as I consider renting from Dollar. However, Happy 21st Birthday! Just make sure to take that first "legal" drink after your trip behind an Avis wheel. :D

A little OT, but an interesting read for the last three posts as I consider renting from Dollar. However, Happy 21st Birthday! Just make sure to take that first "legal" drink after your trip behind an Avis wheel. :D

Actually, it won't be an Avis car. And since I'll be at work all day, I won't be doing anything drinking-wise until late night, if at all. (I'm not really looking forward to the alcohol, though I'm interested to see what my friend at Budget put in that strange bottle-shaped package...) But thanks for the well-wishes!

Wahooflyer,

Thanks for the reply.

First, do you pay for American Express's primary CDW coverage ($25 per rental to make it primary)? As far as I know, even AmEx's Platinum cards only provide secondary coverage unless you enroll in the $25-per-rental option. Second, is your Visa card a Visa business card? Visa business cards provide primary CDW coverage, but consumer Visas are secondary to any existing coverage. The only American consumer card to include primary CDW coverage is Diners Club. (None provides liability.) Also, there's still plenty of MasterCard users who aren't covered, and all credit cards void their coverage if you don't put the entire bill on one card.

Amex/Visa "secondary" LDW is primary to me, as my own car is an old beater that doesn't have collision or comprehensive coverage. If you don't have comp/coll on your own car, or don't own a car at all, credit card coverage is primary up to $50K.

I did know that New York requires rental agencies to rent to anyone over 18. However, I also know that 18-21-year-olds have to pay an exorbitant underage surcharge--somewhere in the neighborhood of $75 per day. I thought this was just due to market forces or increased operating costs (due to more damaged cars or more expensive insurance costs). I didn't know that New York was an "S" state (one that requires rental companies to provide liability insurance).

Yes. New York has very strict vicarious liability laws for rental companies and in case of accident resulting in damage to another vehicle, person, or property, the rental company's liability insurance is PRIMARY in NY, not the renter's personal auto policy. Same in Virginia and a few other states. In these states, the underage fees are justified since the rental agency has to pay out liability claims up to the state minimums. In other states, I can't see a valid reason for rental companies to charge $20+ per day to young renters if those young renters have full coverage of their own.

And those three programs are free, unlike Hertz and National, which, as far as I know, have enrollment fees.

There are a number of ways to get a free Hertz #1 Club Gold and National Emerald Club membership...either through a corporate account or from promos offered from time to time. I don't pay for my Emerald Club membership.

OK, it was a Smirnoff Twisted V Green Apple (just their flavored beer, not vodka). Pretty good, but it basically tasted to me like a slightly tangier version of Jones' Green Apple Soda. That's cheaper, too.

Anyway, I understand that credit card coverage might work for you. I know that you've personally had good experiences with them covering damage to rental vehicles.

But that doesn't change the fact that I saw a letter from Mastercard denying someone's claim.

Every time I hear someone say, "My credit card covers me," I see a mental snapshot of that letter in my head and think, "Good luck."

One time, it took our fleet manager five years to collect from a credit card company's insurance. Other times we've given up and had to place a charge for several thousand dollars on the customer's card. How would you like to deal with interest payments on $12,000 for the three years you spend fighting with your credit card company? I know some people might like to take the chance, but that's a pretty big chance to take.

I just couldn't get myself to rely solely on a credit card that might decline my claim, leaving me out $30,000. That's scary. And even though I have my own car insurance, there's my deductible and raised premiums. I'm not sure I want to triple my car insurance rates for three years because of a minor bumper-bender. (And, my insurance company doesn't cover loss of use.) And some folks have actually been dropped by their credit card companies or had their interest rates go up because of too many claims.

Yes, I realize I'm biased. I do work on commission (though not much--it hardly makes it worth my effort). But what motivates me more is seeing these claims and repayment plans go through our accounting department. It frustrates me when people's insurance companies or whatever don't honor what they've said they'd do and leave their customer out in the cold. That's wrong, and management doesn't like it either. That's why half the time we don't bill for the additional expenses like downtime and administrative fees--insurance companies refuse to pay it and we hate sticking a $3,000 bill to the customer. But some companies aren't as generous.

I'm just saying: be aware of what might happen and at least see the value in the rental company's coverage. It might be too expensive for your taste and lead you to take your chances, but at least see the benefit of it. All right, I rest my case. Enough of that.

On another note: I still haven't asked about underage surcharges. However, if I did, I suspect I'd get an answer something like this: "Everyone else charges it. As long as they do, we will too--unfortunately, this business is so cutthroat that we need to do anything we can to stay in the black. And there is additional risk and cost that we absorb by renting to younger people: more wear and tear on the cars and the hassle and cost of dealing with damages, even if the insurance company pays for most or all of it."

That may not actually cost $10-25 per day, but it's almost industry standard, and that's the glorious world of capitalism.

OK, enough on that, too. I've got other stuff to do...