US Airways Dividend Miles (Pre-FlightFund Merger) - USAir to cut wages 21%

Just posted on the WSJ:

ALEXANDRIA, Va. -- A bankruptcy judge granted US Airways authority Friday to immediately cut the pay of its union workers by 21%, saying the airline's situation is so dire that urgent action must be taken.

The 21% pay cut is nearly all of the 23% cut the air carrier had sought.

"Basically what we have here is a ticking fiscal time bomb," U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Stephen Mitchell said in issuing the ruling.

The temporary pay cuts are in place until Feb. 15, 2005, one month less than what the airline had sought. Judge Mitchell also granted the airline authority to reduce the size of its jet fleet.

^ Good news to hear. I do feel for the employees, but for US to keep flying, this is absolutely necessary.

And for everyone that said there was "no way a judge would ever grant this to US," well here it is . . .

Good for us, HORRIBLE for US employees.

This means they are making 20% less than their counterparts at other airlines. Even LCCs like SW and B6.

http://gateway.yellowbrix.com/pages/gateway/Story.nsp?story_id=58627417&ID=gateway&scategory=Airfares&

All we could hope for is in the long run this will make them successful. I'm in B-school now, and not one professor of mine things this is the case though ......

http://www.usairways.com/about/press/nw_04_1015.htm

US AIRWAYS STATEMENT REGARDING INTERIM
RELIEF APPROVAL
ARLINGTON, Va., Oct. 15, 2004 -- US Airways Chief Executive Officer Bruce R. Lakefield issued the following statement after the decision today by Judge Stephen S. Mitchell to grant the company interim relief from its labor contracts:

"Our request for interim relief was a regrettable but necessary step to build cash and assure our customers of our ability to continue operations. Judge Mitchell’s thoughtful and expeditious decision on this matter, in combination with the agreement with the ATSB to allow use of cash for the next three months, provides us with an opportunity to successfully complete our Transformation Plan. But the interim relief is not a substitute for permanent relief, and we will continue to make all our resources available to quickly reach consensual agreements with the Association of Flight Attendants, the Communications Workers of America, and the International Association of Machinists," said Lakefield.

Interesting to note that he didn't mention the APA. He must think that they have a done deal.

As news trickles in, it appears the company got nearly everything it wanted. 21% instead of 23%, but that is still enough to pressure the ALPA to ratify their deal (which is better than 21%).

They also got expanded permission to outsource maintenance (pretty well ruining the arbitration decision that the mechanics just got), they have permission to reduce the fleet (and maybe lay off out of seniority).

If they can avoid huge labor problems, they should come out of this alive.

In related news today, UA asked the BK judge to cancel all labor contracts with its union. Coincidental timing?

As news trickles in, it appears the company got nearly everything it wanted. 21% instead of 23%, but that is still enough to pressure the ALPA to ratify their deal (which is better than 21%).

They also got expanded permission to outsource maintenance (pretty well ruining the arbitration decision that the mechanics just got), they have permission to reduce the fleet (and maybe lay off out of seniority).

If they can avoid huge labor problems, they should come out of this alive.

wonder what the difference 2% makes?

wonder what the difference 2% makes?

Every lawyer, when making a demand, adds some padding because you know you'll never get all you want. Obviously US made a compelling argument or the judge would have stripped off more.

I wonder how the pilots will react to the news knowing that they had a prior deal that cut their pay by 18%+

I wonder how the pilots will react to the news knowing that they had a prior deal that cut their pay by 18%+

As far as I understand, the pilots will still get their deal as long as they ratify it. Today's ruling has probably increased the probability of it going through.

I wonder how the pilots will react to the news knowing that they had a prior deal that cut their pay by 18%+

It probably makes them a lot more likely to vote for it, as it's still on the table.

I wonder what will happen to Mr. Freshwater's "No" vote recommendation.

So, they needed to save $40M/month or they would run out by the first week of March. This gets them $35M of that.

Simple logic tells me this should carry them into the busy summer season, so they might be out of the woods until at least 4Q05.

Of course, it seemed that way the first time around.

I feel safe booking US award travel through next summer now. Others?

wonder what the difference 2% makes?

As others have pointed out, always go in asking for more than you'll accept.

The 2% bone helps the lawyers for the employees' unions justify their fees for arguing against the 23% paycuts.

The 2% demonstrates that the bankruptcy judge gave this some thought and consideration rather than just rubber-stamping the company's petition.

And I'm certain that the pilots will now quickly ratify their agreement.

And other workgroups can still avoid the 21% if they come to terms with the company.

No comment, other than to say that if management uses this break intelligently, to fix immediate problems, it will be a first, which is why I suspect the employees have been reluctant. Even the most hardcore of them have seen enough, with Eastern, Midway, TWA, etc. to know better...yet they resisted this one anyway. Let's hope they don't take it out on the customers.

http://www.usairways.com/about/press/nw_04_1015.htm

US AIRWAYS STATEMENT REGARDING INTERIM
RELIEF APPROVAL
ARLINGTON, Va., Oct. 15, 2004 -- US Airways Chief Executive Officer Bruce R. Lakefield issued the following statement after the decision today by Judge Stephen S. Mitchell to grant the company interim relief from its labor contracts:

"Our request for interim relief was a regrettable but necessary step to build cash and assure our customers of our ability to continue operations. Judge Mitchell’s thoughtful and expeditious decision on this matter, in combination with the agreement with the ATSB to allow use of cash for the next three months, provides us with an opportunity to successfully complete our Transformation Plan. But the interim relief is not a substitute for permanent relief, and we will continue to make all our resources available to quickly reach consensual agreements with the Association of Flight Attendants, the Communications Workers of America, and the International Association of Machinists," said Lakefield.

Interesting to note that he didn't mention the APA. He must think that they have a done deal.

That would be ALPA, the pilots union.

As news trickles in, it appears the company got nearly everything it wanted. 21% instead of 23%, but that is still enough to pressure the ALPA to ratify their deal (which is better than 21%).

They also got expanded permission to outsource maintenance (pretty well ruining the arbitration decision that the mechanics just got), they have permission to reduce the fleet (and maybe lay off out of seniority).

If they can avoid huge labor problems, they should come out of this alive.

Folks, the labor problems have begun. Who do you think is going to work over the holidays? Employees are no longer willing to take work over family. This is the 4th holiday season in a row that we got screwed! Happy Thankgiving (thanks for what?) and Happy Holidays (there will be no Christmas at my house)

wonder what the difference 2% makes?
The company did not get totally what it wanted. They wanted 23% for 6 months. They got 21% for 4 months.

No comment, other than to say that if management uses this break intelligently, to fix immediate problems, it will be a first, which is why I suspect the employees have been reluctant. Even the most hardcore of them have seen enough, with Eastern, Midway, TWA, etc. to know better...yet they resisted this one anyway. Let's hope they don't take it out on the customers.
Taking it out on the customer has never been a fair practice. After the ruling today, I can imagine that a few of us are stressed out and need to get a plan together for ourselves. Just keep that in mind when asking for discontinued magazines, glassware in f/c and free food and movies. Not to mention that the VPs will be the ones walking away with our money AGAIN! All that makes it hard to keep a smile although a good joke will usually work. :D

Just posted on the WSJ:

ALEXANDRIA, Va. -- A bankruptcy judge granted US Airways authority Friday to immediately cut the pay of its union workers by 21%, saying the airline's situation is so dire that urgent action must be taken.

The 21% pay cut is nearly all of the 23% cut the air carrier had sought.

"Basically what we have here is a ticking fiscal time bomb," U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Stephen Mitchell said in issuing the ruling.

The temporary pay cuts are in place until Feb. 15, 2005, one month less than what the airline had sought. Judge Mitchell also granted the airline authority to reduce the size of its jet fleet.

I have sympathy for the employees, but having done a few job switches myself and possibly considering relocating for another one, I'd expect US Airways employees to change jobs to work for other airlines or companies that pay more, if they can do so. Nobody is stuck working for one employer forever.

As news trickles in, it appears the company got nearly everything it wanted. 21% instead of 23%, but that is still enough to pressure the ALPA to ratify their deal (which is better than 21%).

They also got expanded permission to outsource maintenance (pretty well ruining the arbitration decision that the mechanics just got), they have permission to reduce the fleet (and maybe lay off out of seniority).

If they can avoid huge labor problems, they should come out of this alive.

This is temporary. After 05/02, the outsourcing authority is gone.

The mechanics will shut it down before granting permanent relief on this subject, unfortunately.

The company did not get totally what it wanted. They wanted 23% for 6 months. They got 21% for 4 months.
They didn't get what they asked for. That doesn't mean they didn't get what they wanted. In a negotiation, you always ask for more than you want, which is in turn always more than you need.

They might not have gotten EXACTLY what they had stated. But they got pretty darn close as far as I am concerned. The judge and many others actually do want to see US survive.

Hopefully this news will boost their bookings some.

T

This is temporary. After 05/02, the outsourcing authority is gone.

The mechanics will shut it down before granting permanent relief on this subject, unfortunately.

There is no way the Mechanics, FA's and maybe the CSR's will take this. Considering the pension is about 99.9% certain to be trashed and having the lowest pay in the industry by a wide margin now, why would any workers other than pilots want to keep this Zombie walking around. The risk/reward ratio for most employees is just not worth it at this point. A very sad day for US Airways, I'll really miss the gate agents at PWM and MHT and the people in Winston-Salem at the Chairman's desk. I don't think they'll make it past January unless Oil crashes. I predict operational mayem over Thanksgiving which will severly dry up future bookings and drive the last nails in the coffin.

RIP US Airways.

Haven't read enough yet to find out - but are management taking this cut along with the rank and file? Assume they must be, unless they want to deal with a pretty gruesome civil war on their hands.

Haven't read enough yet to find out - but are management taking this cut along with the rank and file? Assume they must be, unless they want to deal with a pretty gruesome civil war on their hands.

If I'm reading the ruling correctly it only affects the unions. No wording about non-CBA based groups.

-JC

Haven't read enough yet to find out - but are management taking this cut along with the rank and file? Assume they must be, unless they want to deal with a pretty gruesome civil war on their hands.

Management already took a pay cut sometime after the Ch22 filing. If memory serves it was somewhere in the 20% range... in fact, Senior management pay was a cut between 15 and 20% (17% average according to other article in another thread) with a cut in pension contributions of about 25%. All officers and managing directors will take a pay cut of 7.5 percent with no pay raise, and the number of officers was cut from 36 to 25.

There is no way the Mechanics, FA's and maybe the CSR's will take this. Considering the pension is about 99.9% certain to be trashed and having the lowest pay in the industry by a wide margin now, why would any workers other than pilots want to keep this Zombie walking around. The risk/reward ratio for most employees is just not worth it at this point. A very sad day for US Airways, I'll really miss the gate agents at PWM and MHT and the people in Winston-Salem at the Chairman's desk. I don't think they'll make it past January unless Oil crashes. I predict operational mayem over Thanksgiving which will severly dry up future bookings and drive the last nails in the coffin.

RIP US Airways.

Yes do we have another arm chair professional on here who can predict the future? No one can predict what is going to happen. I have been hearing over and over again that US Airways is dead at this date, dead at that date. Many predicted US would have been dead a few years back and guess what. US Airways is still flying and I for one and going to fly them even if it costs me all my miles. I am still very happy with the service that I am getting with them. Yes, it is not the same as it use to be however, I still love flying with them.

I just read an article that Delta is getting ready to head down the same path. US is just the shortest on cash so they are in front of the line for this Ch 11 BK. US is still hanging in there and I feel pretty good that they will make it despite what the "PROFESSIONALS" on here think. With the pay cuts and the judge allowing US Airways to access the cash from the ATBS, I would hope and think that all of us will see US get through the 1st Quarter. And if they do they will have a chance since the 2nd Quarter is the most profitable.

I for one am still hopeful.

T

For those who think that every union member will now just walk-off the job, forcing US to immediately shut down all operations and begin liquidation, who is to say that if the majority of the union membership says "eat ****ake and die", that US can't just then dissolve the unions and let those former union members who want to work come back?

Take away the union dues, and those "terrible wages" look a little better. And those workers who bust their bums can be rewarded for merit, and not "time in jumpseat". The customer disservice employees will be gone and those that remain will be there because they want to be there.

Sure, it would be a smaller US mainline operation depending on how many truly did walk, but it might be a better, stronger, happier US...

Here's a video from The Associated Press:
http://play.rbn.com/?url=ap/nynyt/g2demand/1015usairways_woes_SS.rm&proto=rtsp&mode=compact

They can only fail if, on top of poor marketing decisions, traffic drops, they start selling $29 fares in the hubs, oil goes over $50 a barrel, and they find they don't have enough collateral to secure future borrowing, and run out of cash. Now what's the chances of all those things happening at the same time....uhhh..

Management already took a pay cut sometime after the Ch22 filing. If memory serves it was somewhere in the 20% range... in fact, Senior management pay was a cut between 15 and 20% (17% average according to other article in another thread) with a cut in pension contributions of about 25%. All officers and managing directors will take a pay cut of 7.5 percent with no pay raise, and the number of officers was cut from 36 to 25.

A few notes:

US claims plans to "reduce" management "compensation" by 15 and 20 percent. In fact, what they are doing is not filling vacant positions (and counting that towards the "cut"). It's deception at it's finest.

Officers and directors will take a 7.5 percent pay cut, after getting anywhere betwen 4 and 6 point raises back in April/May.

I had the occasion to speak to around a half-dozen US mechanics this evening, as I'm stateside for a short while--trust me, these guys are going to shut the place down if their contract is abrogated permanently.

I had the occasion to speak to around a half-dozen US mechanics this evening, as I'm stateside for a short while--trust me, these guys are going to shut the place down if their contract is abrogated permanently.

If the contract is ruled invalid, what will be their basis to "shut it down"?

Arguably, the mechanics are the most marketable of the US employees in terms of finding new jobs.

But what you are hearing now are all the union hard liners moaning because they didn't get their way in BK court. The maintenance groups are always the apparent hard liners.

Being from Western PA and having supervised union groups there--the words and the bravado sound familiar. But I guarantee you that behind the union leaders backs, the members are talking settlement because the pickup truck in the driveway and projection television in the family room are still being paid for with the weekly check.

I am not well versed on how a company would exit bankruptcy if its union contracts are nullified, but the mechanics would not be legally justified to walk out on that basis alone. If they didn't negotiate in good faith for a new agreement, they could be held in contempt.

If they did walk without the good faith effort, US could probably do what Reagan did to the air traffic controllers when they walked out.

..

As a bankruptcy attorney, the cuts to labor while needed if there is any hope that US can possibly survive, will have a horrendous effect on its employes. The first two cuts brought a number of US employees into the bankruptcy court for their own bankruptcies. I expect even these "temporary" cuts will do the same as most people live to their income and assume it will never go down and only up. So give a smile and an encouraging word to those US employes you come in contact with. I flew out to LAX today and the attendant while not very friendly originally, with a smile and encouragement from me and a couple of other passengers turned out to be one of the best in a long time. ^

Bad industry bad time. It may be time to start looking elsewhere for employment for myself. Even though I do not work for USairways, I feel very sorry for the employees as we are not too far behind in our pay being cut as well. As one poster said, wait until the holidays come, I totally predict operational mayhem as many employees simply will not care anymore.

A few notes:

US claims plans to "reduce" management "compensation" by 15 and 20 percent. In fact, what they are doing is not filling vacant positions (and counting that towards the "cut"). It's deception at it's finest.

Officers and directors will take a 7.5 percent pay cut, after getting anywhere betwen 4 and 6 point raises back in April/May.

.


Thanks, Clue, for pointing this out. Midlevel managers, the people to whom the frontline employees report, will have their pay cut by five percent.

Sometimes it is easy to understand the anger expressed by many employees.

If the contract is ruled invalid, what will be their basis to "shut it down"?


If the contract is invalidated with a S1113(c) motion (after 60 days of negotiation), it's basically a section 6 scenario under the RLA, which permits self-help.[/quote]

Arguably, the mechanics are the most marketable of the US employees in terms of finding new jobs.

But what you are hearing now are all the union hard liners moaning because they didn't get their way in BK court. The maintenance groups are always the apparent hard liners.

There is that, but they are pissed about the snowjob (and make no mistake, that was a BS move engineered by Bronner and Little Dave to both bone labor again and take work down to Alabubba) over the Airbus outsourcing (which, they ultimately did win in arbitration) and the fact that after the cuts, these guys can all find work outside the airline industry making as much (if not more) money working under much better conditions.

I am not well versed on how a company would exit bankruptcy if its union contracts are nullified, but the mechanics would not be legally justified to walk out on that basis alone. If they didn't negotiate in good faith for a new agreement, they could be held in contempt.

They'll negotiate. But they won't give what the company wants (outsourcing all heavy mx, getting rid of stores and utility, etc). That'll go on for 60 days, and you will see the airline fold right after the abrogation. Reference Eastern.

If they did walk without the good faith effort, US could probably do what Reagan did to the air traffic controllers when they walked out.

Every US plane has to be inspected by a mechanic, every day. Every single day. You have the routine and line maintenance that needs to be performed. It all has to be signed for by somebody with a license, and it takes weeks to complete the background checks and whatnot to get a SIDA badge (to access the ramp and other secured parts of the airport. Even if US tries to replace these people, the airline will be grounded in the meantime. The loss of revenue will force liquidation. Reference Eastern.

I'm not saying I like the scenario, but after the crap that US has pulled with labor (specifically the Airbus outsourcing move on the mechs), I'd walk too (were I a mechanic).

The pay cut appears to be a good step for US's balance sheet. However the negative effect that it will have on the human beings that work for US can't be underestimated. Labor won't sit idle while collective bargaining is negated. This fight isn't just about US Airways, but all legacy carriers.

It's not out of the realm of possibility that unions will stage informal (sick outs) or formal work stoppages to get their point across. Replacing them en masse will be nearly impossible; the time it would take would turn US Airways into Bama Air.

US has earned the mistrust that they have with their employees. The fact that they are now adversaries instead of allies will alone bring down the company.

There is nobody on this board who wishes US to fail, but certain people need to take off the rose colored glasses and face the music.


Yes do we have another arm chair professional on here who can predict the future? No one can predict what is going to happen. I have been hearing over and over again that US Airways is dead at this date, dead at that date. Many predicted US would have been dead a few years back and guess what. US Airways is still flying and I for one and going to fly them even if it costs me all my miles. I am still very happy with the service that I am getting with them. Yes, it is not the same as it use to be however, I still love flying with them. ........................

I for one am still hopeful.

T

Every US plane has to be inspected by a mechanic, every day. Every single day. You have the routine and line maintenance that needs to be performed. It all has to be signed for by somebody with a license, and it takes weeks to complete the background checks and whatnot to get a SIDA badge (to access the ramp and other secured parts of the airport. Even if US tries to replace these people, the airline will be grounded in the meantime. The loss of revenue will force liquidation. Reference Eastern.

I agree--but didn't every flight need to be tracked and receive proper ATC instructions when the controller issue arose in the early 80's? That situation was managed..

I agree there would be some confusion in the case of a mechanic walk out, but I disagree that these particular mechanics need to be the ones doing that aircraft inspection.

And if they can get more money at another job, which I would think is true, why stick around for the hassle? Move on to the next phase of life. Its silly to stick around if you have other better options.

..

Yes do we have another arm chair professional on here who can predict the future? No one can predict what is going to happen. I have been hearing over and over again that US Airways is dead at this date, dead at that date. Many predicted US would have been dead a few years back and guess what. US Airways is still flying and I for one and going to fly them even if it costs me all my miles. I am still very happy with the service that I am getting with them. Yes, it is not the same as it use to be however, I still love flying with them.

I just read an article that Delta is getting ready to head down the same path. US is just the shortest on cash so they are in front of the line for this Ch 11 BK. US is still hanging in there and I feel pretty good that they will make it despite what the "PROFESSIONALS" on here think. With the pay cuts and the judge allowing US Airways to access the cash from the ATBS, I would hope and think that all of us will see US get through the 1st Quarter. And if they do they will have a chance since the 2nd Quarter is the most profitable.

I for one am still hopeful.

T


Well put, FAN. No one knows what is in the future. The doom and gloomers can have their opinions, but they'll always be just that- opinions. I, too, am happy with the service I get from US and will keep flying until the end. If us loyal ones keep booking travel through next year (as I am), then I think we can keep US flying. ^

There is nobody on this board who wishes US to fail, but certain people need to take off the rose colored glasses and face the music.


That's not really a fair statement. I think US FAN and others (me included) that generally keep their posts positive and that hope for the best completely understand US's situation. It's not a matter of ignorance- we're just choosing to respond differently.

And on a side note: don't be so sure that everyone posting on this board is a well-wisher . . .

Thank you GotCalcio4

While many people on FT (some of you are from airliners.net) just seem to be so negative. I surely do not have rose colored glasses on. I know US is in danger and is walking a tight rope. However, with the strides that US has been making there is hope and things could pan out. Many on these boards choose to be negative and I choose to be positive.

Many of the EXPERTS say US has a 50/50 chance (and I mean the real experts...which are none of the ones on this board). Many on here choose to look at the glass half empty and I and a few other choose to look at it half full.


I personally think US will make it. And I am not wearing rosy glasses :cool:

I don't know. I'm of the impression that this is only part of the equation, even if they somehow get to keep the lowest salaries of the airlines, they are also getting the lowest yield -- at least from the people I talk with who are avoiding USAirways except for fares that they feel they can throw away...

I don't understand the union mindset, I know if I was told a 21% pay cut I'd just say "See ya, I'll find something else" ... oh well.

I don't understand the union mindset, I know if I was told a 21% pay cut I'd just say "See ya, I'll find something else" ... oh well.

That is of course assuming there is something else. Probably not a problem for the mechanics and the pilots, but what about the FAs and the two aircraft cleaners? ;)

This of course doesn't apply to all FAs (or necessarily both cleaners) but:

JANINE: "All I do know is that I've been working two weeks without a break and you promised me you'd hire more help."

PETER VENKMAN: "Janine, someone with your qualifications would have no trouble finding a top-flight job in either the food service or housekeeping industries. You gonna answer that?"

JANINE: "I've quit better jobs than this. <picks up phone>
Ghostbusters! What do you want?!"

-Ghostbusters

The IAM members have skills that are transferable outside the airline industry but I don't know if there is a need for machinists right now in today's economy.

The pilots, while very skilled, are one trick ponies, they do something very well but that's it. In an industry that's down sizing they might not have another job waiting for them at another airline.

Let's face it, the F/As are the least skilled and if they can't find something in the airline industry their next job will undoubtedly involve the following: "Would you like that super-sized?"

What I am trying to say is that the options for US' employees are not great. Some will wind up with other airlines but the majority will not. They better think long and hard about their options before they do anything that will further endanger the airline.

As for us Roaches, most will stay with US to the bitter end. If it collapses, we'll pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and move to a new airline. It might be a few months struggle until we hit elite status with our new carrier of choice but we'll get there. Besides, we can all go to the Discontinued Programs Board and reminisce about the old days on US.

C'est la vie.

US claims plans to "reduce" management "compensation" by 15 and 20 percent. In fact, what they are doing is not filling vacant positions (and counting that towards the "cut"). It's deception at it's finest.

Officers and directors will take a 7.5 percent pay cut, after getting anywhere betwen 4 and 6 point raises back in April/May.

As I noted when the paycut was announced, this was a terrible move in terms of employee relations and PR. They should take matching cuts and they should have taken then first. It is indeed no suprise that their relationship with the unions is so bad.

When the unions pointed out in the BR hearing that the 7.5% cut was on top of a recent 4% raise, I just couldn't believe it. This is an easy-to-understand example of how US Airways management has failed to do even the obvious things to build some kind of sense of shared sacrifice. When hard-line union folks see the whole exercise as "breaking the backs of the unions" and claim that the only cost savings are being bourne by the rank and file, you can understand where they are coming from.

I had the occasion to speak to around a half-dozen US mechanics this evening, as I'm stateside for a short while--trust me, these guys are going to shut the place down if their contract is abrogated permanently.

The mechanics are the real problem here. ALPA will (has?) roll over and I think that there is a good chance that AFA and CWA will reach deals. The position of the company is now so much stronger because they are negotiating pay raises instead of cuts. An ALPA type deal of an 18% permanent cut will now mean a 3% raise from the new reality.

However the IAM has consistantly taken a much harder line. I really don't know if they will make meaningful concessions. Even if the judge authorizes permanent abrogation in a 1113c -- which is a much more difficult case to win, I'm not sure the airline can survive self-help. The IAM situation is the one that may yet kill U.

The first two cuts brought a number of US employees into the bankruptcy court for their own bankruptcies. I expect even these "temporary" cuts will do the same as most people live to their income and assume it will never go down and only up. So give a smile and an encouraging word to those US employes you come in contact with.

^ ^ ^

This idea should be highlighted often! I fly U because of the employees. All my buddies from the PI days are the best folks to be around and the nicest and most helpful people in the business. Even for those who think that these cuts are required, you surely must feel sympathy for the people bearing the burden of the cuts. An encouraging word of support and a sincere thanks would help brighten some otherwise miserable days and costs us nothing.

Thank you GotCalcio4


I personally think US will make it. And I am not wearing rosy glasses :cool:


Thanks, FAN.

That's not really a fair statement. I think US FAN and others (me included) that generally keep their posts positive and that hope for the best completely understand US's situation. It's not a matter of ignorance- we're just choosing to respond differently.

And on a side note: don't be so sure that everyone posting on this board is a well-wisher . . .

You underestimate the need to have employee/union support for reorganization. It's one thing to not get your predeparture drink, but quite another when maintenance is affected by employee moral. US may have stepped on their employees for the last time.

Be prepared for the backlash of this action from the unions. This is not contrived, but should be expected. I am very concerned about flying with US in the coming months because of potential work stoppages and unexpected "maintenance" delays.

My personal dilemma is if I should jump over to UA or NW. One way or another it's time to make a move.

Folks, the labor problems have begun. Who do you think is going to work over the holidays? Employees are no longer willing to take work over family. This is the 4th holiday season in a row that we got screwed! Happy Thankgiving (thanks for what?) and Happy Holidays (there will be no Christmas at my house)
Hopefully, US will be free to fire anyone who doesn't show up for work.

Every US plane has to be inspected by a mechanic, every day. Every single day. You have the routine and line maintenance that needs to be performed. It all has to be signed for by somebody with a license, and it takes weeks to complete the background checks and whatnot to get a SIDA badge (to access the ramp and other secured parts of the airport. Even if US tries to replace these people, the airline will be grounded in the meantime. The loss of revenue will force liquidation. I'm not saying I like the scenario, but after the crap that US has pulled with labor (specifically the Airbus outsourcing move on the mechs), I'd walk too (were I a mechanic).


I'd be surprised if every single union employee - regardless of the union - would just walk away. Once the union formally says "kiss off", and walks, does the union agreement have any effect any more? Will US be able to hire people at will, regardless, as long as they carry the ceritifcations and meet whatever standards are required for the position?

As some US employees on this board and in the papers have noted, they have bills to pay. Bills that an unemployment check won't cover fully. Union management can talk all they want, but when push comes to shove, some of their members need those jobs - even with the pay cuts I bet those checks are more then an umemployment one.

Could US not recover some - obviously not all, and there would be serious schedule repercussions of a nature that might just end the airline, anyway - of those workers to help keep operations going?

And what about the Regionals? I believe they are wholly-owned subsididaries of US and not contract companies like United Express, but how does their employees fit into the picture? If the unions "walk", do they automatically walk as well, or are they covered seperately?

And even if for some reason everyone does walk, how large of a ready labor pool from the layoffs from everyone else is there to draw from? UA is laying off 6000 this quarter. The other majors are shedding, as well. Would not those people be able to step forward - if they meet the criteria - and fill the rolls?

I know usaviation.com is weighted towards the complainers, but I see work actions already happening on an individual scale: http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14897 (along with other topics) .. enough to make me concerned if I had a USAIrways flight (I don't)

I know usaviation.com is weighted towards the complainers, but I see work actions already happening on an individual scale: http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14897 (along with other topics) .. enough to make me concerned if I had a USAIrways flight (I don't)

You reinforce my point form my earlier post exactly. This is what the "Shiny , Happy, People" on this board don't understand. US Air employees with start to call in sick more, refuse OT etc. This will cause a downward spiral of bad service and dropping bookings. This will culminate Turkey Week with operational Chaos. I love US Airways and their employees, but I see no way out of this death spiral now that the wage cuts have been imposed. LUV is also going to keep the pressure on Fares to kill US Air as quickly as possible. I just don't see any way out, because nobody like Bronner is going to come in with money to burn (literally, like Bronner did) to get this baby out of Bankruptcy this time.

You reinforce my point form my earlier post exactly. This is what the "Shiny , Happy, People" on this board don't understand. US Air employees with start to call in sick more, refuse OT etc. This will cause a downward spiral of bad service and dropping bookings. This will culminate Turkey Week with operational Chaos. I love US Airways and their employees, but I see no way out of this death spiral now that the wage cuts have been imposed. LUV is also going to keep the pressure on Fares to kill US Air as quickly as possible. I just don't see any way out, because nobody like Bronner is going to come in with money to burn (literally, like Bronner did) to get this baby out of Bankruptcy this time.

Well said. The writing is plainly written on the wall. I'm hoping that US pulls out, but can't rationally see how this is possible.

I didn't want to start a new thread...nor do I want to cause everyone and their mother positing their experiences and taking away from the thread at hand...but I thought I would give you my experience of the day...

Flew from Morgantown, WV to PIT to CLT to Columbia, SC - a long day to be sure...

My experience today was as quite good, maybe even better than what I have come to expect with US these last few years...starting with the staff and pilots with USAIR express in MGW...to the First class service and VERY upbeat announcements from our pilot from PIT to CLT to the staff in CLT heading to CAE...again, pilot announcements were upbeat and apologetic for small delay we experienced...

Overall an excellent day with regards to US staff - about as good as you can expect with 2 express flights and 3 segments total...

I wanted so badly to say to every employee I saw today that I was genuinely sorry for their cuts and I hope desperately that US can fix themselves and get those bennies and paychecks back where they belong - Let's hope they say my roach pin and know what it means...I'm gonna start wearing a hat that says -

ALL RESPECT AND HOPE TO USAIR EMPLOYEES!

ChazDawg

As some US employees on this board and in the papers have noted, they have bills to pay. Bills that an unemployment check won't cover fully. Union management can talk all they want, but when push comes to shove, some of their members need those jobs - even with the pay cuts I bet those checks are more then an umemployment one.

Could US not recover some - obviously not all, and there would be serious schedule repercussions of a nature that might just end the airline, anyway - of those workers to help keep operations going?



the short answer is "no", even though the logic you put forth is impeccable. why? long-term reprisal. At the national level, ALPA maintains a systemwide "blacklist" of any pilot ever known to have been working when the union says otherwise. At best, these people are banned for life from professional courtesies like cockpit seating privileges. At worst, they're "made examples of".

In the immediate run, US's victory in the courts makes its operations yet more problematic. With a 21% wage cut in place, what employee wouldn't immediately start drawing down every available bit of sick leave, etc?? And who's going to agree to work extra duty at the end of the month, as is typically needed in the airline biz to keep the network running smoothly?
The odds are quickly shortening on what could well be a US "winter of hell" in delays and cancellations due to labor shortages.

the short answer is "no", even though the logic you put forth is impeccable. why? long-term reprisal. At the national level, ALPA maintains a systemwide "blacklist" of any pilot ever known to have been working when the union says otherwise. At best, these people are banned for life from professional courtesies like cockpit seating privileges. At worst, they're "made examples of".

Then I would tend to think that every employee of every domestic airline is doomed, eventually.

WN has been around for 20 years. They must have people who still fly and work the cabins and load the planes who have been with the company that long, and over time, those ranks will continue to grow. Eventually, WN will become a "legacy high cost carrier" like the Big Six are today, and B6 and F9 will do to them what WN is doing to the Big Six, now.

And then in 20 years B6 and F9 will be the "legacies" and they will be destroyed by whoever can raise enough capital to launch a start-up and get sweetheart deals from EADS and Boeing and the Port Authorities to minimize their costs for as long as possible.

Of course, when the Big Six become the Big Two over the remainder of the decade (for with the oil shock and world instability, the next five years will truly cull the herd like the late 1970s and early 1990s economic and oil issues could not), maybe they will be able to exert enough monopolastic control to ensure RASMs will always exceed CASMs and they can then bury F9 and B6 in low-costs seats when their back-end costs come to the front and wound WN enough to keep them on the defensive.

The majority of the employee group are "good eggs", and in places like Philly, where attitude has never been in short supply, it never took a crisis to bring it out. In a perverse way, all the layoffs have left the carrier with its older (and presumably more experienced) people. As you walk the concourses, you don't see too many youngsters in uniform. Meanwhile, this morning's Sunday Seattle Times has a front page story on the travails of Alaska Airlines. Accompanying the story is a graph, showing average seat mile costs by airline. If it is accurate, US is still number one, with something like 9.5 cents, versus 4.5 for JetBlue. Very disconcerting, given all the cutbacks and givebacks. It looks like no matter what they do, this dog just won't hunt.

the short answer is "no", even though the logic you put forth is impeccable. why? long-term reprisal. At the national level, ALPA maintains a systemwide "blacklist" of any pilot ever known to have been working when the union says otherwise. At best, these people are banned for life from professional courtesies like cockpit seating privileges. At worst, they're "made examples of".

In the immediate run, US's victory in the courts makes its operations yet more problematic. With a 21% wage cut in place, what employee wouldn't immediately start drawing down every available bit of sick leave, etc?? And who's going to agree to work extra duty at the end of the month, as is typically needed in the airline biz to keep the network running smoothly?
The odds are quickly shortening on what could well be a US "winter of hell" in delays and cancellations due to labor shortages.

About your point on calling in sick....US wants to "do away" with the sick banks of flight attendants. For every month we don't call in sick we get 5 (flight) hours in our sick bank. Well, many people have hundreds of hours in their bank. We get paid 80 flight hours a month, so many people have all those hours stacked up and don't get used up, unless they go out on maternity or something. Of couse there are a couple abusers. Usairways wants to take away our banks and have a new sick policy implemented. The details are all fuzzy as usual, but it sounds like everyone will start at a zero bank. Not only will we be taking a cut, but the bank is about to be robbed...of our money. Any idiot that has a bank built up is going to be making some LARGE withdraws. A couple of holidays are coming up too....

Sick time is not "money" ... it's a good will gesture by a company to allow one to take days off with some pay when one inevitably gets sick. Very very few companies these days let employees cash out sick time. The PTO model is becoming much more popular.

Sick time is not "money" ... it's a good will gesture by a company to allow one to take days off with some pay when one inevitably gets sick. Very very few companies these days let employees cash out sick time. The PTO model is becoming much more popular.


I wasn't saying that employees should get a check. I wouln't want one. The money IS there so that when I get sick, I can afford to stay home to get better.
The most junior FA that can hold a set schedule is from 1989. To hold off two of the biggest holidays of the year, I couldn't tell you what seniority that is. I can't even hold Ground Hog Dayoff. I tried for poops and giggles. In 8 years, I have had off Xmas ONE time. I called in sick (and I really was). My point is- people like me, NEVER having holidays off, taking a third paycut.....I'm no genius but...people can only take so much. One might say "you knew going in you would never see a holiday again". True, I did but if you fully understood what the company did to us, you could see people saying, "screw it...I'm staying home for Christmas". I'm not saying it's okay to abuse sick time, but I can at least see WHY they are doing it. You follow?

I wasn't saying that employees should get a check. I wouln't want one. The money IS there so that when I get sick, I can afford to stay home to get better.
The most junior FA that can hold a set schedule is from 1989. To hold off two of the biggest holidays of the year, I couldn't tell you what seniority that is. I can't even hold Ground Hog Dayoff. I tried for poops and giggles. In 8 years, I have had off Xmas ONE time. I called in sick (and I really was). My point is- people like me, NEVER having holidays off, taking a third paycut.....I'm no genius but...people can only take so much. One might say "you knew going in you would never see a holiday again". True, I did but if you fully understood what the company did to us, you could see people saying, "screw it...I'm staying home for Christmas". I'm not saying it's okay to abuse sick time, but I can at least see WHY they are doing it. You follow?

I find it amazing that such a high seniority level is required to hold a schedule.

How is a FA at that seniority level impacted by the 21% cut. Are they making the magical $32 per hour?

Be thankful you are not a UA FA, flygirl. The worst crime you can commit - and the surest way to walk down the road to dismissal - is evidently to call in sick.

My experience today was as quite good, maybe even better than what I have come to expect with US these last few years...starting with the staff and pilots with USAIR express in MGW...to the First class service and VERY upbeat announcements from our pilot from PIT to CLT to the staff in CLT heading to CAE...again, pilot announcements were upbeat and apologetic for small delay we experienced...

Overall an excellent day with regards to US staff - about as good as you can expect with 2 express flights and 3 segments total...



Its weird but I have to agree here. I too have noticed positive attitudes lately and a lot of "gallows humor" with the staff that I have interacted with. For example last week I had to change a international flight by one day for a family emergency. Called US Gold line and they changed my reservation - telling me that there would be a change fee and I had to pay the difference between the two fares - all in all about $ 1000. OK - the change could not be avoided and my company is paying the bill. At PHL the agent had to call to input my credit card number and apologized that the pricing structure was so screwy and had a good laugh with the person on the other end of the phone when I told them to consider my $ 1000 as a start on the $ 900 billion US needs.

I find it amazing that such a high seniority level is required to hold a schedule.

How is a FA at that seniority level impacted by the 21% cut. Are they making the magical $32 per hour?

My husband, Capt. Wench, has almost 21 years of seniority and he is scheduled to fly Dec. 24-26th. He holds a schedule, but obviously not a very good one as far as the holidays are concerned. He will fly it though, as he is a very reliable person. :) Looks like we'll be celebrating Christmas on the 27th instead. We've had to celebrate it on many different days over the years, when our kids were younger we convinced them that Santa made special trips for the children of airline people, doctors, nurses and anyone else that has to work on the actual holiday.

Any f/a's with over 13 years of seniority will be making the magical $32/hour. Is that what it is? I hadn't figured it out yet. Anyone with less than 13 years will be making less.

Hope that helps.

I know usaviation.com is weighted towards the complainers, but I see work actions already happening on an individual scale: http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14897 (along with other topics) .. enough to make me concerned if I had a USAIrways flight (I don't)

I think I was seeing it at CLT tonight. Not a lot of delays, but I think there were a lot of crews that were being shuffled around, and my CLT-RDU crew mentioned to me that they'd never been to CLT before. There were at least seven overbooked planes I saw in the 8pm bank, and others were telling me that flights earlier in the day had been canceled (but I don't know that for sure). Inbound to CLT seemed okay, and it was Sunday night, so maybe that was all just related to Sunday night traffic. Attitudes went from the normal happy and friendly to downright irritated to be there, all of which I could understand. I sympathized with a few f/a's about "friday's court decision" and they all seemed to be unhappy about it, but didn't want the passengers to know.

This pay cut just gave the rank-and-file the shaft. I live with an airline employee and we've talked about what we think US needs to do to get back on its feet -- this court move was the exact opposite. I know it's a lot easier to get the court to do this rather than a controlled negotiation, but if you want everyone to work together, you've got to respect them enough to talk and work with them. His position is that the management is always trying to screw the workers, so when I'd make suggestions about working together, he'd literally start laughing.

Sick time is not "money" ... it's a good will gesture by a company to allow one to take days off with some pay when one inevitably gets sick.
"Good will gesture by a company?" Hardly. It was negotiated for at the bargaining table and came at a price.

I am NOT saying people should abuse it but it is totally inaccurate to characterize it as a gift management decided to unilaterally give one day "just because."

"Good will gesture by a company?" Hardly. It was negotiated for at the bargaining table and came at a price.

I am NOT saying people should abuse it but it is totally inaccurate to characterize it as a gift management decided to unilaterally give one day "just because."

It'd be a "good will gesture" to the customers as well. Would you want a flight attendant with a runny nose and cough, groggy and probably tired serving you food and drinks, and in a worst case scenario trying to handle an emergency situation?

Be thankful you are not a UA FA, flygirl. The worst crime you can commit - and the surest way to walk down the road to dismissal - is evidently to call in sick.

even if actual sick leave is difficult to take, what the company's action has created at US (and will create, if the court goes for abrogation at UA) is a natural incentive for "virtual" sick leave-- "virtual" in the form of working-to-rule, working at minimum possible speed and efficiency in response to reduced pay.

Conscientousness and gallows humor might sustain a minority of the work force for a brief time, but eventually the incentives are powerful enough to take their toll. the odds thus remain narrowing on a winter of hell scenario in operations.

Even if actual sick leave is difficult to take, what the company's action has created at US (and will create, if the court goes for abrogation at UA) is a natural incentive for "virtual" sick leave-- "virtual" in the form of working-to-rule, working at minimum possible speed and efficiency in response to reduced pay. Eventually the incentives are powerful enough to take their toll. the odds thus remain narrowing on a winter of hell scenario in operations.

If the employees don't want to work for the airline anymore, and are spiteful enough to want to kill it, then why don't they just walk? Why go through the motions?

Past labor actions of this type were taken when their employer was making money hand over fist. They were taken to show their employer that while they might be making $1 billion a quarter profit right now, if they don't give labor (at least) half of it, they can cost them hundreds of millions of that profit in chaotic operations and lost passenger bookings.

It's entirely different now. The airlines are losing money hand over fist. US is only keeping passengers because it's the only way to fly a routing or they have large mileage balances they are trying to keep intact. Passengers are skittish enough, as is, and if irregular operations become regular, those passengers will move to UA or some other airline, accelerating the chances of their demise.

Any f/a's with over 13 years of seniority will be making the magical $32/hour. Is that what it is? I hadn't figured it out yet. Anyone with less than 13 years will be making less.


I've been curious about this and have yet to get an answer:

Are there any f/a's or pilots that are not topped out on the salary scale (13 and 12 years, iirc). There is lots of talk about comparative "pay scales" and how US will be lower "at most pay levels". If no one is at those levels, a bit of a moot point, no?

I seem to recall reading on pilotpay.com or whatever the correct URL is (can't find it now and Google is no help), that the most recently hired pilot was around 1986. I can't imaging f/a's are a whole lot different.

So what percent are at the 32/hr and what percent are less? Anyone have an idea?

The IAM members have skills that are transferable outside the airline industry but I don't know if there is a need for machinists right now in today's economy.

The pilots, while very skilled, are one trick ponies, they do something very well but that's it. In an industry that's down sizing they might not have another job waiting for them at another airline.

Let's face it, the F/As are the least skilled and if they can't find something in the airline industry their next job will undoubtedly involve the following: "Would you like that super-sized?"

What I am trying to say is that the options for US' employees are not great. Some will wind up with other airlines but the majority will not. They better think long and hard about their options before they do anything that will further endanger the airline.

As for us Roaches, most will stay with US to the bitter end. If it collapses, we'll pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and move to a new airline. It might be a few months struggle until we hit elite status with our new carrier of choice but we'll get there. Besides, we can all go to the Discontinued Programs Board and reminisce about the old days on US.

C'est la vie.
To say the F/A are the less skilled is an unfair thing to say! Many of us have 4 year degress, Masters and even PhDs. MDs. We have lawyers and nurses in our field, among others. This is one aspect of what makes our job interesting. Many of us with established careers wanted a change and that is why we switched. Please don't degragate the F/A. We are just as educated as most of you eventhough we are thought less of because we serve coke and pretzels. Don't forget our real reason for being there.............to save your butt!

To say the F/A are the less skilled is an unfair thing to say! Many of us have 4 year degress, Masters and even PhDs. MDs. We have lawyers and nurses in our field, among others. This is one aspect of what makes our job interesting. Many of us with established careers wanted a change and that is why we switched. Please don't degragate the F/A. We are just as educated as most of you eventhough we are thought less of because we serve coke and pretzels. Don't forget our real reason for being there.............to save your butt!

If these people have advanced degrees as you say, then they would have been gone along time ago. Nurses are in high demand anywhere and lawyers who can't make as lawyers go on to become judges not F/As. ;) I'll stand by my original statement. F/As have the least transferable skills of anyone with the airline.

I don't understand the union mindset, I know if I was told a 21% pay cut I'd just say "See ya, I'll find something else" ... oh well.

Houndreds of them have. You don't really expect every single employee to up and quit, do you? That certainly wouldn't happen in a non-unionized business, why would it happen at USAir?

Once the union formally says "kiss off", and walks, does the union agreement have any effect any more?

Airline labor law is defined by the Railway Labor Act and differs significantly from labor law outside of the airline and railroad industries. Under the RLA, employees can not strike unless the National Mediation Board has declared an impasse in negotiations, released the parties into a 30-day cooling off period and that cooling off period has expired. Short of that, the airline would immediately get a court order directing any striking employees back to work.

So what percent are at the 32/hr and what percent are less? Anyone have an idea?

According to Teddy Xidas, as posted on USAviation in this thread (http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14875&st=0), approximately 80% of the FAs are currently topped out.

I would be very suprised if the pilot weren't more top-heavy than that. IIRC, many pilots had to move back to FOs during the last cutbacks.

This top-heavy labor pool is one of the many areas that causes the statistical disconnect between management and labor. Labor will point out that they already have wages that are far below many of the competitors, which is true when you compare the top-out pay or the starting pay. Management will point out that their labor costs are much higher than the exact same airlines that labor uses in their comparisons, which is also true, because so many of the U workforce is topped out and many of their competitors have balanced pay scales.

Airline labor law is defined by the Railway Labor Act and differs significantly from labor law outside of the airline and railroad industries. Under the RLA, employees can not strike unless the National Mediation Board has declared an impasse in negotiations, released the parties into a 30-day cooling off period and that cooling off period has expired. Short of that, the airline would immediately get a court order directing any striking employees back to work.

a bankruptcy court imposition of a changed contract has an effect equivalent to company "self help" in RLA terms (also normally allowed only under the "impasse" and "cooling off" provisions), and thus labor "self help" (strike, slowdown etc) is not illegal in response.

Airline labor law is defined by the Railway Labor Act and differs significantly from labor law outside of the airline and railroad industries. Under the RLA, employees can not strike unless the National Mediation Board has declared an impasse in negotiations, released the parties into a 30-day cooling off period and that cooling off period has expired. Short of that, the airline would immediately get a court order directing any striking employees back to work.

It is worth noting that nobody has really tested 1113 since the post-Lozenzo overhaul of the bankruptcy code.

I suspect, however, that no judge is going to both abrogate a contract and rule against self-help. It's the "chicken and egg" theory (or, chicken and section 6) theory.

According to Teddy Xidas, as posted on USAviation in this thread (http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14875&st=0), approximately 80% of the FAs are currently topped out.


Sorry, you have to be a paying member to view the thread. They didn't announce it in advance so many viewers were left out. Those of us who did not know, are not able to see the threads.