Travel Technology - New timepiece

Doesn't seem to fall under technology per say, however, I've found the folks on this board to be quite knowledgeable on a wide variety of topics so, here goes.

I'm looking for a new watch. It will be for every day use and will need to be sporty, yet look good enough with a suit and for more formal occasions. I've checked out www.timezone.com (http://www.timezone.com) and it is a fantastic site if you want to learn a lot about watches. The owners are fanatical about their brands and really get into the details about the various movements, etc. A fantastic resource, however, it hasn't made my decision easier, only a lot more difficult. I thought having more information would be better, how mistaken I was.

I've narrowed it down to Breitling, Omega, or one of the less expensive Rolexes (sp??). TAG seems to be a good brand but it gets panned as a "pretender". I would prefer automatic movements.

What does everyone here wear? Can you offer any suggestions?

It sounds like you price range is in the $2k - $5k area. If so, I'd dump Rolex (even more a pretender, although on a different level) and add IWC to your short list.

http://www.omega.ch/omega/wo_space_x33

:)

You can find this with the titanium strap at Costco for around $1500 most of the time.

It's handy for travellers because it's digital back lets you set multiple timezones.

The Tag Kirium F1 looks pretty much the same.

It sounds like you price range is in the $2k - $5k area. If so, I'd dump Rolex (even more a pretender, although on a different level) and add IWC to your short list.


Why?

The one thing that's great about a (sports) Rolex is that it will always hold it's value. It's practically impossible to get a decent discount (>15%) on a new one.

That Speedmaster X33 looks interesting BTW. Do you have one Scott?

Rolex is just so common. No serious horologist would be caught dead with one. Anything with serious complications (jewels) holds its value way better than a Rolex ( which is a stupid argument as the real knowledge of whether your timepiece will hold some value or seriously appreciate will generally be known in 50 years or so). As stated above, IWC's are good. So are Breguets and Panerai's. Tag's are utter rubbish, Zenith isn't bad, while most Omega's are also quite common. Breitling's are good but low end Baume and Merciers are not. If you want something really special go for a Lang und Sohne.

Rolex is just so common. No serious horologist would be caught dead with one.

Boy, that statement will get you quite a reply on TZ. Rolex is one of very few 'manufacturers' that make their own movements and is quite well regarded in the horology circles. They are not an extinct brand that was resurected a few years back (Breitling and many others....) and have a real and significant place in history. No, not a Patek or Lange in terms of quality, but a good next-tier product. No, I don't own any and wouldn't want to as they are too 'popular' for me, but I greatly respect them.

Anything with serious complications (jewels)

Complications (flyback, chrono, perpetual, etc.) and jewels (synthetic rubies - corundum - that are used in movements) have very little, if anything, to do with each other. Oh, and it's "A. Lange & Söhne".



Back to the original question - to me Breitling is a bit too much marketing, not enough substance (and I have 3 of them - wanna buy used?). Omega is a good solid choice - I have an SMP I am very happy with. TAG - no (yes, I have one, haven't worn it in 2 years).

Take a look at a Maurice Lacroix Calendrier Retrograde - a very nice piece from an watchmaker on the rise. It is a handwind though, so know what you are getting. Perhaps a Chronoswiss - I like my Regulateur, or a Ulysse Nardin - my Michelangelo UTC is one of my favorites. I greatly respect IWC, great product for the $$$, although none of their designs appeal to me right now.

If you want to drop more $$$, Lange would be my top pick, then JLC or VC.

My advice is to look at lots of options, think about them, then buy what you like. I bought Breitling(s) because they were 'hot' and friends had them. Now they sit in a case. I liked the ML, even though I had never heard of them, so I bought it. I am happy every time I wear it, and everyone now seems to be catching on. Don't worry about the name, reputation, snob appeal, etc. - heck, if you like a Tag and it will make you happy, that's what's important.

I'll keep an eye out for you at TZ.

Why?

The one thing that's great about a (sports) Rolex is that it will always hold it's value. It's practically impossible to get a decent discount (>15%) on a new one.

That Speedmaster X33 looks interesting BTW. Do you have one Scott?

Yes I do. Mine originally had the Kevlar strap, but I had it replaced for the Titanium strap. It looks good, has a backlit display and is durable. All I need in a watch. IF you are looking for a watch in that lower price segment then Omega or Breitling are good buys. As I said, check out the local Costcos, they often have awesome deals on these brand watches.

If I was spending that kind of money for a watch, I would look at the antique market. There are not many, but a few really excellent hand made used pieces available for that range.

I love antique timepieces, way more then new ones, at least the new ones I can afford. Lots of people trade them in when people die or are looking for a new rolex or something.

Nothing classier then a piece of hand made machinery that you wear on your wrist that has been working for 100 or so years.

Anything with serious complications (jewels) holds its value way better than a Rolex ( which is a stupid argument as the real knowledge of whether your timepiece will hold some value or seriously appreciate will generally be known in 50 years or so). .

I'll let you calling me stupid slide, but please be a little bit more reasonable if you care to reply again.

Rolex increases it's prices on a regular basis and rarely updates it's designs. The price increases are usually a lot more than can be attributed to inflation. As a result a Submariner from 1980 looks very similar to one you would buy today. Consequently the value of the watch bought in 1980 appreciates from the price paid in the direction of the current model's price. Granted, it doesn't ever reach that price, but still appreciates significantly. Compared to most watch models in this price range that rarely sell for the manufacturer's recommended price even at launch (and go for a large discount second hand), Rolex sports models hold their value well. This is especially true when compared to the other brands mentioned by the OP - Breitling, Omega and Tag Heuer.

You imply that their is some connection between the number of jewels a watch has and how it holds it's value. I'd like to see some examples of this. I'm guessing that for every one you can give, there are five that show that higher jewel count for little when it comes to maintaining value.

As stated above, IWC's are good. So are Breguets and Panerai's. Tag's are utter rubbish, Zenith isn't bad, while most Omega's are also quite common. Breitling's are good but low end Baume and Merciers are not. If you want something really special go for a Lang und Sohne.

I like Panerais and bought one a few months ago, but fear they may be just the 'hot' watch of the moment like Breitlings were when CPRich bought his. In any case, I don't see it maintaining it's value like a Rolex.

Tags are another watch that was 'hot' for a while. My experience with them is that they are very poor quality. I still have one that I received as a gift many years ago. I stopped wearing it when it needed a third visit back for repair after the luminova kept detaching itself from the hands.


Nothing classier then a piece of hand made machinery that you wear on your wrist that has been working for 100 or so years..

I agree. A beautiful old Longines was left to me when I was a teenager. It doesn't get out much, but feels very special on my wrist on those rare occasions.

Rolex may make their own movements, but I believe that much of the rest of the watch (hands, face, etc) are actually made by the Stern group, and have been for many years. Real second hand value is often different to what is banded about on "boards" go take your Daytona down to a watch shop and see what they'll really give you. If you have never worn it, and kept it in a box, maybe its worth a lot, wear it regularly and forget about those great prices.

There is also a difference between Panerai and Breitling. You are right that Breitling was a "recreation", I do believe however that Panerai always made watches, although in incredibly small and insignificant numbers over the years.

Wow, there is a lot of myth, misinformation and hyperbole here that needs correcting.

Disclosure: I currently own five Rolexes, two Breitlings, two Omegas, one IWC, and one Jaeger-LeCoultre. I have owned and disposed of another IWC, another Rolex, and an A. Lange. My next significant purchase will be either another JLC or a Glashutte Original.

First, Haute Horologie: Haute Horologie pretty much deals with watch making houses that work in the finest traditions of the art as they were developed around the late 18th century. These are watches that are still almost entirely handmade and more importantly hand finished. Each piece tends to have a high degree of individuality and uniqueness. Many of these watches will also contain one or more of the more difficult complications such as a Tourbillion, Minute Repeater, Perpetual Calender, etc. They also produce watches by the dozens [sometimes by the hundreds] not by the thousands or hundreds of thousands. Haute Horologie brands encompass firms that are as much two hundred years old [Breguet, Vacheron Constantin, Patek Philippe, etc.] to firms that are less than 20 years old [Frank Muller, A. Lange, RGM, Daniel Roth, etc.].

Below the level of Haute Horologie is a large group of brands that make truly fine watches, call it the high end of the middle level. Some use their own movements and some use ebauches [basic movements that are refined by the individual brand] from the likes of ETA/Valjoux, Unitas, Zenith, etc. While many of these watches are machine-made/assembled to some degree or another, and their production numbers can be as high as 800,000 per year in the case of Rolex, they are still fine timepieces. These brands include Rolex, IWC, Zenith, Jaeger-LeCoultre, etc.

Rolex: Rolex is an interesting company. Their watches and their mystique are a combination of true horological innovation, fine watch making, and marketing hype. Though Rolex does not make any watches that contain more than the basic complications [seconds, date, autowind, chronograph] they do make truly wonderful movements. They are not finished particularly well because a] it saves cost and b] you couldn't see it anyway as Rolex does not incorporate any exhibition case backs or dials but they are tough and dead-on accurate. Rolex is also among a very few brands that makes all of their movements [the Daytona's Zenith El Primero movement now replaced by a completely in-house creation]. And yes, about $1000 of the price of a Rolex is down to buying the status of owning a 'Rolex'. Personally I find their steel models to be aesthetically pleasing, well designed, and very accurate models. Over-priced and over-hyped by those who really know nothing about watches? Absolutely, but still a fine, ,attractive and accurate watch IMHO.

Officine Panerai: A recent cult phenomena watch. This Italian make does have a decent history that goes back to the first part of the last century [they made nautical instruments before that]. Interestingly, The first Panerai's used Rolex sourced movements. Today they use movements sourced from ETA/Valjoux and Unitas just as Breitling, Omega, and IWC do. Their casework is pretty nice though their dials would not otherwise indicate their $3500+ price.

I must say that IWC is losing some of it street cred among the horology intelligentsia as they move away from making their own movements to using ETA/Valjoux more and more.

It should be noted that there are several brands such as Audemars Piguet, Girard Perregaux, Blancpain and Glashutte Original that a have a line of watches in both the Haute Horologie and mid-level camps.

The next level, the mid-level of the high-end if you will, contains brands that also have long and storied traditions of fine watch making such as Omega, Breitling, and Oris. Some would argue that Rolex belongs in this group and I can see their point. Also, arguably, this group of watches really belongs in a larger, expanded middle group to which I can also see this point.

Next you come to the lower end of the high-end. Brands such as Minerva, Sinn, Bell&Ross, and many others.

Finally you come to the lowest level. These are watches that may work quite well, keep time perfectly, etc. but their brands are simply marketing tools. Brands such as TAG, Sector, Fossil, etc. These brands have no real watchmakers, their watches are cobbled together from parts outsourced to many other companies and assembled by still other companies. Again, these brands are just a marketing firms and not watch making firms.

Whew.

Gotta stop here, barely touched on any of these subjects in-depth but it is a reasonable start.

Anarkitec, I almost agreed 100% with what you said, till the last part where you put all Tag's in the same bunch...

While it's true that Tag makes some pretty cheap watches that fit your description they also have lines of timepieces that certainly don't.

I'm going to be in SIN soon. I can pick up some Rolexes or Pateks for you guys if you want.

Thanks for the help. I'm really only just starting to learn about timepieces, their movements, # of jewels, etc., etc. and find it to be a fascinating experience.

My budget does not allow me to purchase or collect at the same level as most of you here, but call me an interested beginner. I have an awful lot to learn.

IWC was not a brand that I had originally considered, but I will now. Patek Philippe, et al are far too expensive for my resources (and I'd be afraid to wear it on a daily basis - I'm very hard on watches). I enjoy the classic look of the Omega Seamaster and could see myself with one of those. I must confess, I always thought that Omega and breitling were very high end - shows you I have a lot to learn.

Thanks for your assistance. Keep posting as I've really learned something here. Any other good sites out there other than TZ?

CPRich:

I've been looking at the Sales Corner on TZ and see a lot of good deals (or so it seems). How reputable is the sales piece of it? Can most of the people on this site be trusted? Does buying used invalidate the warranty?

I ask these questions because people here seem to buy a watch and then turn around and sell it for half price 2 months later? I know that I couldn't afford to take a bath like that on a $2-3000 watch, let alone some of the fine timepieces there.

In your experience, am I better off paying more, but buying from an established dealer?

Preface: I'm out of my league here talking about watches, but FWIW I have got a Rolex Oyster Perpetual Datefrom the 1940's (grandad's). Its self winding, but the band is looser and it not waterproof and I don't think its as accurate as lots modern watches. Even after servicing, I can be +-2 mins a month. My watch guy says its an antique and think of it as the character of the watch.

So antiques are nice, but they may require more attention esp. if you wear them quite a bit.

If I was spending that kind of money for a watch, I would look at the antique market. There are not many, but a few really excellent hand made used pieces available for that range.

I love antique timepieces, way more then new ones, at least the new ones I can afford. Lots of people trade them in when people die or are looking for a new rolex or something.

Nothing classier then a piece of hand made machinery that you wear on your wrist that has been working for 100 or so years.

Anarkitec, I almost agreed 100% with what you said, till the last part where you put all Tag's in the same bunch...

While it's true that Tag makes some pretty cheap watches that fit your description they also have lines of timepieces that certainly don't.

Well, I would agree with that.

I don't think that I said that TAG was "cheap" because I certainly don't think that. I just meant that when TAG took over Heuer they stopped actually making their own watches in any significant way and outsourced everything except marketing a brand name.

Over the Years TAG has certainly had some nice watches, no argument here.

CPRich:

I've been looking at the Sales Corner on TZ and see a lot of good deals (or so it seems). How reputable is the sales piece of it? Can most of the people on this site be trusted? Does buying used invalidate the warranty?

I ask these questions because people here seem to buy a watch and then turn around and sell it for half price 2 months later? I know that I couldn't afford to take a bath like that on a $2-3000 watch, let alone some of the fine timepieces there.

In your experience, am I better off paying more, but buying from an established dealer?

As with everything else, buy the seller not the product. Ask around that forum as to the reputation of the seller. Email him or her, ask specific questions and expect specific answers. The TZ SC is certainly more reliable than eBay.

As for new vs. used, well, with 'new' you will get a one or two-year warranty, all of the boxes and papers and the pride of being the first to own that particular watch.

With 'used' you let someone else take the 20-40% initial depreciation [unless you are talking about Rolex then it is more like 5-10%] and can likely turn around and sell it for what you paid for it if it is not to your liking.

Also, Omega and Breiting are high-end brands; it’s just that they are the mid-level of the high-end.

Also be aware that an officially certified Swiss Chronometer [C.O.C.S.] can run from -4 to +6 seconds a day, every day cumulative. That means that even the best certified Chronometers can be as much as 3 minutes a month fast or 1-1/2 minutes slow. A decent $50 Casio quartz will lose and gain less time over a month. What is remarkable is that most fine Swiss Chronometers will gain or lose exactly 2, or 3 or 4 seconds a day on a consistent basis. This cheap quartz watches cannot do. One can also cancel out much of the daily gains and losses of a Swiss Chronometer by experimenting with storing the watch at night in a different position [crystal up, down, crown up, down etc.]. Once you find which position works best then you just follow that routine. It is not uncommon to keep a watch to within and average gain of 1 second per day or 30 seconds a month. Not bad for a bunch of gears, springs, and levers.

Here's a stupid question.

How would you know, or even notice, that a watch is out of time by +/- 2 to 6 seconds per day. I realize that this could add up to a minute or two over a month, but, how would you notice?

Here's a stupid question.

How would you know, or even notice, that a watch is out of time by +/- 2 to 6 seconds per day. I realize that this could add up to a minute or two over a month, but, how would you notice?

1] A high quality quartz desk/wall clock that can be accurate to within 1 second per month

or

2] www.time.gov

I'm going to be in SIN soon. I can pick up some Rolexes or Pateks for you guys if you want.

I was there a few years ago, and pricing was pretty good.

Man, some pricing items would be great!

As for watches, wow this thread could go on a long time.

I started some years ago with a nice used OMEGA speedmaster, and later added a Breitling and Two Bell & Ross which I really like.

A gift from a boss of a white Rolex Explorer II was a real treat though, and the one I wear the most. Contrary to what some say here, I don't see them "everywhere" and catch about 1 or 2 a year in the circles I run in.

I really like some of the newer B&R's, and love IWC but find them overpriced.

As for poser hours, I would put the Penerai's in there. I see these most on 25-33 year old IB's in Manhatten. Everybody has one, they are everywhere.

Best place to buy timepieces in the past few years was Germany. Now that the Euro is high vs. $$ ,that is less so, but remember, you can get 16% VAT back if you go back at some point.

When the Euro was .85$ and the VAT was 16%, that made for some nice savings. Find a nice WEMPE retailer in a big city, they have locations here in the states too if you ever have any issues.

I have purchased from both of these and can recommend them without hesitation:

www.watchseller.com

www.bernardwatch.com

I picked up a Longines Flagship chronograph in Zurich a couple of years ago. It's automatic, rock-solid accurate and completely reliable. Mine has a stainless band and a white face (it comes with a black face as well). I wear it everywhere -- to the office, for travel, leisure, etc. As I recall, I paid around $1500 for it.

Wow, there is a lot of myth, misinformation and hyperbole here that needs correcting.

...


Is that you Stan?
:)


Very nice summary - I tried to avoid turning this into a TZ thread, as there are dozens capturing this very sentiment - all with various rankings, but I can't say I disagree with anything you stated (other than nit-picking exactly where JLC and AP fit - I agree they bridge the gap).

Hmmm - time to resume that search for a nice PanoReserve...

CPRich:

I've been looking at the Sales Corner on TZ and see a lot of good deals (or so it seems). How reputable is the sales piece of it? Can most of the people on this site be trusted? Does buying used invalidate the warranty?

I ask these questions because people here seem to buy a watch and then turn around and sell it for half price 2 months later? I know that I couldn't afford to take a bath like that on a $2-3000 watch, let alone some of the fine timepieces there.

In your experience, am I better off paying more, but buying from an established dealer?

My experience only - I have yet to buy a new watch from a dealer. From the tiers nicely defined by anrkitec, I have 0 top-tier (although my wife has an AP), 4 high-end, 6 mid-level, plus miscellaneous Swatches, Poljots, and others that TZ afectionately refers to as "beater watches". Every single one of the 'good' watches was through TZ Sales Corner. Do you diligence as you would anywhere - ask for references, truly follow up on them, have clear agreements on payment, inspection periods, etc. Most of the folks selling also post on the forums - see how long they've been around, etc. Bottom line - if you're not comfortable, don't do it. I've backed out on deals that were 95% likely to be fine, but something doesn't feel right. I've never had a problem with SC.

I did buy one through eBay - bad move. Watch worked fine initially, but the autowind mechanism wasn't operational. It turned out to be a $80 rotor fix at the watchmaker, but the seller wanted nothing to do with me.

Regarding the rapid flipping - that continues to amaze me - some people just have too much money. But I did spend $150 on an SC purchase, turned out I didn't really like it, and re-sold it for $130. I'm willing to take a chance at that level. For those with 50x more money than I have, I guess buying a top-end watch and then deciding a day or two later that you don't really want it is acceptable. Makes for good bargains for some of us.

Keep in mind, I haven't bought a new car in a long time and getting 90% of the functionality at 50% of the price is a great equation to me. Others just need new. I am also not very risk-averse.

Buying a used watch purchased from an authorized dealer would extend to you the original warranty terms - at least in every case I have examined. Be sure to ask the seller whether it has the correct, stamped papers, reciept, etc. You can search the FAQ's for the discussion on 'gray market' watches - another kettle of fish. Not good or bad, just a different set of trade-offs.

Where are you better off? Your decision. Above is just my lone experience.

You have found TZ - continue to ask these questions there - it is a very good group of people.

Back to FF topics now...

It should also be mentioned that although Rolex and one or two other brands are family foundations, almost all the major watch brands are now a part or 3 big consortiums.

Actually, I was kidding. I was referencing the $15 ones for sale in the street in SIN.

Why?

The one thing that's great about a (sports) Rolex is that it will always hold it's value. It's practically impossible to get a decent discount (>15%) on a new one.

That Speedmaster X33 looks interesting BTW. Do you have one Scott?

Rolexes are an abomination but a commercial success. They hold their value because the average sap knows nothing about a Rolex aside from James Bond used to wear one and the advertisement he see in magazines. Combine that with Rolexes' aggressive methods for preventing dealers to discount the product and you have an Emperor who wears no clothes.

You want to own a Rolex, then buy a Zenith El Primero same movement but thousands cheaper,

It sounds like you price range is in the $2k - $5k area. If so, I'd dump Rolex (even more a pretender, although on a different level) and add IWC to your short list.


Nice recommendation IWC is an excellent watch for the money, may I also suggest Zenith and Kelek,

An earlier thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210031) also discussed a similar if not the same topic. There might be some additional insights there for the OP. btw, I'm still happy with my current timepiece.

Boy, that statement will get you quite a reply on TZ. Rolex is one of very few 'manufacturers' that make their own movements and is quite well regarded in the horology circles. They are not an extinct brand that was resurected a few years back (Breitling and many others....) and have a real and significant place in history. No, not a Patek or Lange in terms of quality, but a good next-tier product. No, I don't own any and wouldn't want to as they are too 'popular' for me, but I greatly respect them.




Most poster on TZ are not that knowledgeable. Rolex only recently started to manufacture there own movements a few years back. They actually bought alot of them from other makers. Try the first 2million movements. Rolexe's strength is marketing and enforcement of their brand.

Whew.

Gotta stop here, barely touched on any of these subjects in-depth but it is a reasonable start.

Thanks for the info as I am sure many here appreciated it, unfortunately you doidnpt give the original poster a recommendation for a watch in the Rolex and Breitling class or price range. I still maintain for the money he is going to spend for a Rolex or Breitling, he should buy a Zenith, IWC or KeleK.

I would like to add a piece of advice. Do not buy a timepiece to wear because you think it is going to hold value. Buy the timepiece because you like and want it. Timepieces are meant to be used and enjoyed. Al of this talk about the better waych doesn't mean squat unless you like and wear what you buy.

Sometimes watch afficianados can get a little too caught up like car and wine enthusiasts do. Sometime we forget the whole point of the object is pleasure and appreciation, not rankings and dollars.

You want to own a Rolex, then buy a Zenith El Primero same movement but thousands cheaper,

As I said up top, start a conversation about Rolex and it's guaranteed to descend to, um, active discussion.

The Daytona hasn't used the El Primero since '01 - it's now an in-house movement. If you're in the used market, yes, I'd also choose a Zenith.

Rolex only recently started to manufacture there own movements a few years back. They actually bought alot of them from other makers. Try the first 2million movements. Rolexe's strength is marketing and enforcement of their brand.

Hmmm, considering that Wilsdorf founded the company in 1908 and a Rolex movement was awarded the world's first wristwatch chronometer rating in 1910, I find both of these statements hard to swallow. Every reference I have point to long-term in-house manufacture.

Again, I don't own or desire a Rolex, but facts are facts and I respect their capabilities.


I agree with Zenith (an Elite HW would be my choice) or IWC as a better choice than Rolex or Breitling. Kelek is an interesting choice, as they are owned by Breitling - do you also like Tudor?


But again, buy what you like. If a Tag does it for you, more power to 'ya.


"Most poster on TZ are not that knowledgeable" is like saying most FT'ers don't know much about flying...

As I said up top, start a conversation about Rolex and it's guaranteed to descend to, um, active discussion.

The Daytona hasn't used the El Primero since '01 - it's now an in-house movement. If you're in the used market, yes, I'd also choose a Zenith.



All I buy is used watches. let someone else pay the mark up for the marketing and profit. Once it is on your wrist who cares if u brought it new or used because it is going to get used anyway.


Hmmm, considering that Wilsdorf founded the company in 1908 and a Rolex movement was awarded the world's first wristwatch chronometer rating in 1910, I find both of these statements hard to swallow. Every reference I have point to long-term in-house manufacture.

Again, I don't own or desire a Rolex, but facts are facts and I respect their capabilities.



I wasn't trying to be completely factual or exhaustive about Rolex. my intention was to accentuate my distaste for them.



I agree with Zenith (an Elite HW would be my choice) or IWC as a better choice than Rolex or Breitling. Kelek is an interesting choice, as they are owned by Breitling - do you also like Tudor?


Breitling may own Kelek but they brought Kelek because Kelek makes great movements and watches. Breitling also allows kelek to continue to manufacture limited pieces under the kelek name, definitely some collectibles in there. Look at it this way, Swatch owns Omega, Blancpain, Glashutte and breguet, JD and dozens of other high end names but they are still good watches regardless of the parent company.

BTW my first watch was a Swatch which started me on the way to appreciate mechanical pieces, my second was an Omega which hooked me and I vowed i would never spend over $25 for a quartz watch, the day I spent over $10k for a watch I realized I had truly gone mad. Now I mostly bargain hunt for older (read: character)pieces at estate auctions.



"Most poster on TZ are not that knowledgeable" is like saying most FT'ers don't know much about flying...


Iunless things have changed much since I stopped reading the board, most are not knowledgeable. I also don't think many FT'ers are that knowledgeable about flying either. I myself am still learning about the intricacies of UA's system and program and I'm a 1K.

It should also be mentioned that although Rolex and one or two other brands are family foundations, almost all the major watch brands are now a part or 3 big consortiums.

Very true. Rolex, Breitling, and Oris are pretty much the most recognizeable independants left.

It will be interesting to see what the future of consolidation holds, which brands get sacrificed, which get moved down-market, etc.

Things are going to get really interesting later this year and next when ETA/Valjoux stops selling ebauches to brands outside of the Swatch Group.

The problem with addressing Rolex is that people on either side of the argument usually give in to addressing emotion rather than the facts. The Rolex Watch Company of Geneva/Bienne and its products have both their good and bad points, but it is important to put each into a proper perspective.

For example, Rolex is one of the most innovative houses in the entire history of horology. They invented the first automatic watch, the first watch with a date window, and the first water-proof watch. Significant contributions for a firm founded around 1908. However, having said this, the Rolex of today is not that small old-world watchmaker sitting at his bench looking through his loupe as he hand finishes the dial on a watch that is #6 out of 10.

Rolex has always made their own movements with the exception of their chronographs which have in the past used Valjoux and Zenith movements. They now have their own in-house chronograph movement. When Rolexes popularity began to take off in the 70’s they did begin to outsource some production of parts and sub-assemblies but they were and are still completely manufacture calibers through and through.

The mistake many people make, and which is even encouraged to some degree by the company, is that Rolex is a hand-made watch. They are not, in the traditional sense. The cases, dials, parts, and some sub-assemblies are machine made but the watches are hand assembled and hand inspected by highly skilled in-house watch makers from computer controlled parts bins. There is just no other way to make 800,000 watches a year. This does not however change the fact that the Rolex Oyster case and their dials are some of the best in the entire industry. And as I said before, while their movements are not terribly pretty nor are they finely finished they are bullet-proof tough and dead-on accurate.

Yes, Rolex probably spends as much on PR as they do on R&D. Yes, they aggressively protect their margins by controlling retail prices, and yes, the consumer pays for this in that the price of the watch is significantly higher than other similar quality watches. However, one thing that many Rolex detractors fail to acknowledge is that while a Breitling for example may be just as accurate, have just as nice a case and dial, etc., Rolex has hands down the best quality control in the industry. The chance of getting a defective Rolex out of the box is much, much smaller than it is with any other brand. Rolex is fanatical about the operational quality of their watches as they leave the factory. They only reason that they can do this is because their margins allow them to.

Now, there are always things that are beyond reason. Paying $10,000+ for a stainless steel Daytona that retails for $6,500 is crazy IMHO. As nice as the Daytona is, in relation to other fine watches there is no way that it is worth $10K. Many people disagree with this and pay the premium to avoid waiting lists. So be it.

So, while a Rolex is over-priced [relative to the other manufacturers, because otherwise they do sell every watch they make] and there are many other watches of equal and higher quality, a Rolex is still a fine, robust, and accurate timepiece that exhibits a very high degree of quality control. I for one own the Rolexes that I do because I find them to be aesthetically pleasing and reliable watches.

All I buy is used watches. let someone else pay the mark up for the marketing and profit. Once it is on your wrist who cares if u brought it new or used because it is going to get used anyway.

As posted above, every one of my purchases were from TZ (with one eBay) so we approach it the same. But saying "buy a Zenith, same movement" is like saying "want a Porsche, buy a VW - same guy". The thread started with someone just jumping in, so I think it's important to differentiate history/current, new/used, etc.




I wasn't trying to be completely factual or exhaustive about Rolex. my intention was to accentuate my distaste for them.

So am I being overly picky - "Rolex only recently started to manufacture there own movements a few years back. They actually bought alot of them from other makers. Try the first 2million movements" are straight-forward factual data which are completely false. Maybe it's just my scientific background that deals with facts as facts. We, in fact, agree - I find them over-priced and hype driven and have no desire to own one. But they are 'significant'.

Similary, I fully accept Patek as the 'best' watch in the world, but I really have no desire for one. Back to the "buy what makes you smile" rule.




BTW my first watch was a Swatch which started me on the way to appreciate mechanical pieces, my second was an Omega which hooked me and I vowed i would never spend over $25 for a quartz watch, the day I spent over $10k for a watch I realized I had truly gone mad. Now I mostly bargain hunt for older (read: character)pieces at estate auctions.

Interestingly, same here. My wife brought me a $70 Swatch from Europe with a display back. I was fascinated by the operation (as a degreed mechanical engineer, no surprise I guess) and started down the slippery slope. Not to $10K though....





Iunless things have changed much since I stopped reading the board, most are not knowledgeable. I also don't think many FT'ers are that knowledgeable about flying either. I myself am still learning about the intricacies of UA's system and program and I'm a 1K.

It's all a matter of degree, I suppose. There are quite a few real watchmakers on the forums who do in-depth analysis of the operation of the movements (i.e. the details on Omega's co-axial movement), Walter Lange has been known to post on the Lange forum, as has Michael Kobold (until he got stupid in Pittsburgh), but most are heavy duty enthusiats. TZ'er can't build a watch but can discuss the intricate details of a 2824 vs. a 7750. FT'ers can't fly a plane but can build you a 27-stop, 3 layover, RTW flight ex-South Africa for a cheap fare.

Actually, it the price range in which the OP might be looking for I would suggest he look at Oris. While there seems to be active discussion as to where exactly to place them compared to a few of the others they are very, very well priced considering the other watches around them. They dont do much marketing here and I think that reflects in their price.

Actually, it the price range in which the OP might be looking for I would suggest he look at Oris. While there seems to be active discussion as to where exactly to place them compared to a few of the others they are very, very well priced considering the other watches around them. They dont do much marketing here and I think that reflects in their price.

I never made a recommendation because the OP never gave us enough info on just what it was that he/she wanted: standard time, chronograph, sport watch, dress watch, stainless steel, precious metal, leather strap, metal band, etc.

I do agree however that the rejuvinated Oris has some great choices. Their new line contains some pretty stunning watches at some really great prices. The new TT1 series in particular is quite nice.

Here's a stupid question.

How would you know, or even notice, that a watch is out of time by +/- 2 to 6 seconds per day. I realize that this could add up to a minute or two over a month, but, how would you notice?

The clock on the wall next to the computer cost under $20, and once an hour it goes out and gets the exact time and resets itself. My clock radio on the bed was a Sharper Image refrub, and once an hour gets the time and resets itself.

I would notice if it was off a minute or two a month, probably way before the end of the month. I wouldn't care, it's part of the character of the watch, and if once a week I have to stop it for 20 or 30 seconds waiting for one of the beeps on the radio that say exactly when it's on the hour or 30 minutes after, then that's part of the price of owning an antique watch.

If I wanted a timepiece to keep the exact time, then any of the $5 of $10 watched on the street corner in New York could do that for me. Ugly as sin, but keep great time.

An antique watch is much like an antigue car. They look great, they run great when they are running great, and can use some minor adjustments most of the time.

Both are very much worth it though.

Two, Two, Two messages at once.

Sorry.

Oris makes a watch series of particular interest to FTers. They have what they call the World Timer movement that I believe was designed and built by Oris. It lets you adjust the time zone (only the hour hand changes) by the use of two buttons on the case, one forward and one back. So it makes it really easy to change the time while not losing the minute set. The date function also advances or retreats with the hour set on the main dial. The home time and a day night indicator are kept on a subdial. Its a very nice, everyday dual time zone automatic watch. Oris has never made anything but automatics in fact. I got one of the originals about 5 or 6 years ago and have been very happy with it. They have it in a number of additional cases now.

I would like to pass along my thanks to all of those who have posted here. You've all provided me with a tremendous amount of information that, as I said in an earlier post, has made my decision much more difficult. TZ has been a terrific resource as well.

There seems to be some question as to what exactly I'm looking for. Here goes:

1) No digital
2) Stainless steel or titanium band
3) Automatic movement
4) Date function
5) If possible, moon phase (I've always liked it - reminds me of when my grandfather and I used to make wine, as you bottle by the moon).
6) Black face
7) Nothing too flashy or overly large (I have to be able to fit it under the cuff of my shirts)

As I said in my original post, I had narrowed it down to the Breitling Colt or the Omega Seamaster. Based on some of the comments here, I need to research IWC and Oris further. I also really like the Omega Speedmaster Moon Phase.

A fairly difficult decision for me as I consider this to be a fairly significant purchase (I don't usually buy things for myself). I anticipate using the watch for a long time and as many of you have said, I want to make sure that I'll like it just as mich 5 years from now as I do today.

Thanks for your help so far. I'll keep doing my research.

Add Waldan International to your list. Excellent chronographs assembled from other manufactureers components but he makes visually beautiful pieces. A couple of years ago i bought a rose gold bracelet chronograph with moonphase(a zeneth el primero movement). was very happy with the piece and it did not cost much.

...I'll keep doing my research.

This should fit the bill…

Omega Speedmaster Moonphase (http://www.omegawatches.com/omega/co_watch?ID=35910&line=117&gen=G&sublineID=371)

I agree that an Omega Speedy is a solid choice, but be aware that it's a handwind, not an automatic.

I have several handwinds and enjoy them, but your criteria called for an automatic.

Here are a couple of other options.

In a round case:
http://www.orolus.com/cgi-bin/ShoppingCart.cgi?action=ShowPic&search_for=58175164064MB&search_brn=ORIS&search_sty=&lowest_price=0&highest_price=99999&ori_action=Go&detail_category=.&detail_sizes=.&detail_keyword=.&search_logo=

And a rectangular case.

http://www.orolus.com/cgi-bin/ShoppingCart.cgi?action=ShowPic&search_for=58175284064MB&search_brn=ORIS&search_sty=Miles%20Complication&lowest_price=0&highest_price=99999&ori_action=Go&detail_category=.&detail_sizes=.&detail_keyword=.&search_logo=

And one style of the dual timezone TT1, which doesnt have a moon phase. There are other styles with this movement, this one has a blue face, I think black is also available.

http://www.orolus.com/cgi-bin/ShoppingCart.cgi?action=ShowPic&search_for=69075274165MB&search_brn=ORIS&search_sty=TT1%20Worldtimer&lowest_price=0&highest_price=99999&ori_action=Go&detail_category=.&detail_sizes=.&detail_keyword=.&search_logo=


By the way, I have no experience or recommendation concerning this dealer, Olorus. Does anyone know anything about them? They have pretty good prices on a lot of high end watchs.

Edited to add the link to the TT1 Worldtimer which didnt come out originally.

I have a few high & middle-high end watches, Lange, JLC, IWC, PP, etc. but what really counts is the one that's usually on my wrist. I can tell you that my IWC Fliegeruhr UTC is almost always on my wrist. The others get brought out only once in awhile.

The Fliegeruhr is just so practical, I can't do without it!

Perhaps next we should discuss watch winders....

I searched until I was cross-eyed looking for the best combination of value, brand, and function in an automatic watch recently.

I landed on the Oris Worldtimer (http://www.redfingerprint.com/watches_list.php/Oris/Oris_Classic_XXL_Worldtimer). Note: I did not buy it from Red Fingerprint. This particular watch has a sapphire crystal (on both sides; window on the back into the movement), mechanism that is produced with some degree of hand-finishing, two hour dials, and a handy set of buttons that advance or retard the time by one hour per push (handy for calibrating to a new time zone).

I can't see spending more than the value of this watch on what amounts to a piece of jewelry (fancy movements aside). I am, however, highly appreciative of its uniqueness and quality (relative to the mass-produced watches).

Wow, there is a ton of great information on this thread. After digesting it all a couple times, and checking out a lot of the models available, I've taken quite a liking to IWC's Pilot's Watch Double Chonograph. Does anyone have a good reason why this would be a particularly good or bad buy?

Also, I'm working in London this summer, and was curious, will I get a better deal (both pricewise, and due to the exchange rate from dollars) to go to Switzerland to buy it?

Thanks much,
Chris

Wow, there is a ton of great information on this thread. After digesting it all a couple times, and checking out a lot of the models available, I've taken quite a liking to IWC's Pilot's Watch Double Chonograph. Does anyone have a good reason why this would be a particularly good or bad buy?

Also, I'm working in London this summer, and was curious, will I get a better deal (both pricewise, and due to the exchange rate from dollars) to go to Switzerland to buy it?

Thanks much,
Chris


I htink ,these days, Germany would be the best. Try a Wempe of somewhere like that. Make sure that you get the VAT forms, and go BACK to where you buy it again and get ALL the 16% back and not just the 10% that the VAT service refund companies will do for you.'

I don't know if trips back to UK count, don't think so. But US trips do.

one you have the green form from a vendor, and get it stamped within six months, there is really no limit to when you can bring it back.

I would like to add a piece of advice. Do not buy a timepiece to wear because you think it is going to hold value. Buy the timepiece because you like and want it. Timepieces are meant to be used and enjoyed. Al of this talk about the better waych doesn't mean squat unless you like and wear what you buy.

Sometimes watch afficianados can get a little too caught up like car and wine enthusiasts do. Sometime we forget the whole point of the object is pleasure and appreciation, not rankings and dollars.

This seems pretty good advice as I feel watches are a very personal decision. I don't like bulky, showy, sporty or fussy watches nor do I like metal bands which limits my choices somewhat. I don't like Breitling, Rolex or TAGs for this reason. Not saying they're bad watches just that they're not for me.

To the OP my watch fulfils 5 of your 7 criteria (no moon phase, steel band) but it isn't sporty as per your first post. I have a Hublot Elegant watch in stainless steel/black as per this picture
http://www.atlantictime.com/hublot-elegant-mens-steel-watches.htm

What I like
1) It's a simple design, just time and date (I don't plan on breaking any freediving records)
2) Its rubber strap which four years on is still as fresh and snug as new, and retains its slight vanilla scent.
3) The fact that it's not popular. I'm wearing it because I like it and I don't care that 99% of the population have never heard of Hublot.
4) I'm unlikely to meet a cockney spiv selling a counterfeit version of it.

I'm sure some of the watches recomended above are technically superior (perhaps some of the experts here can comment) and it is a "new" brand, but have a look at some Hublots and you may find something you like. The official site (www.hublot.ch) used to be much better but now doesn't provide very flattering pictures of the watches IMO.

The cheapest Seiko is at least as accurate as any Swiss chronometer. With a little care, solid gold and platinum watches with sapphire crystals will look new over a lifetime. But keeping them looking new is not cheap. My Rolex President required an overhaul including a new crystal at a cost of over $500. Every three years or so, it needs work.

The only way to justify an expensive watch is to say , ”I bought it because I liked it.”

The cheapest Seiko is at least as accurate as any Swiss chronometer. With a little care, solid gold and platinum watches with sapphire crystals will look new over a lifetime. But keeping them looking new is not cheap. My Rolex President required an overhaul including a new crystal at a cost of over $500. Every three years or so, it needs work.

The only way to justify an expensive watch is to say , ”I bought it because I liked it.”


I presume that the last crystal was acrylic?

any of the $5 of $10 watched on the street corner in New York could do that for me.

...which is where I bought my last Rolex. ;)

So what did you get?

...which is where I bought my last Rolex. ;)

I was very surprised at my last visit to Chinatown. Rolexes, Breitlings, and Cartiers have been sort of the mainstay there with only a few more exotic types. Recently, though they had gone decidedly up market. I saw lots of Pateks (there were always few) as well as Blanc Pain, Breguet and Vacheron Constantin. Had the Breguet tourbillon been a little close to the real thing (the dial was centered on the fake, off center on the real one) I would have been tempted to drop the $60. Always nice to get a $100,000 plus discount ;)

So what did you get?

Uh...a shiny silvery one, with a blueish kinda ringy thing around the dial, and the date under a magnifying spotty area. How's that for yer Horology?! In fact I got "Times Square Rolex's" for my entire family tree. Great christmas gifts. :p

Question: Should I be wearing a velvet smoking jacket & drinking "Cham-panya" (ala SNL) while in this thread?

I was very surprised at my last visit to Chinatown. Rolexes, Breitlings, and Cartiers have been sort of the mainstay there with only a few more exotic types. Recently, though they had gone decidedly up market. I saw lots of Pateks (there were always few) as well as Blanc Pain, Breguet and Vacheron Constantin. Had the Breguet tourbillon been a little close to the real thing (the dial was centered on the fake, off center on the real one) I would have been tempted to drop the $60. Always nice to get a $100,000 plus discount ;)

In Hong Kong, you can get reasonably high-quality fakes of most of the big-name watches. Most use a Japanese automatic or quartz movement, although the "top-end" fakes (typically Rolex or Cartier) use an ETA movement. Costs range from $50 for a quartz movement with a leather strap to upwards of $500 for a really good knock-off Rolex with a Swiss movement. You pays your money, you takes your choice....

I've been offered everything in Hong Kong, from the big names like Rolex, Cartier, Gucci, Tag, Breitling -- to the lesser-known brands like IWC, Breguet, Lange & Sohne, VC, Pateks, etc...

There's a market for it all, I guess.

How come nobody mentioned Cartier? Please hold back the flames. :)

IMHO, they make some beautiful everyday watches and I particularly like the Roadster which is really sporty in stainless steel (has a leather strap also) and Santos 100 models. The Roadster currently sells for $4250, and you can usually find it discounted 20-30% depending upon who you know and where you live.

I <<<heart>>> my Pasha.

And if I had $15K burning a hole in my pocket, I also <<<heart>>> the Roadster Chrono in yellow gold. Just in case my FT Secret Santa is looking for the perfect Christmas present for me. ;)

I think some of the Cartiers are real classics. I especially like the automatic tanks and the Pasha. A lot of them are quartz at this time though it seems. When I read the original post I thought he was talking about something less expensive.

I <<<heart>>> my Pasha.

And if I had $15K burning a hole in my pocket, I also <<<heart>>> the Roadster Chrono in yellow gold. Just in case my FT Secret Santa is looking for the perfect Christmas present for me. ;)

The Roadster Chrono is hot looking. In fact, all of the Roadsters are great to look at. ^

Whew!

Credit card has been heating up lately as I've made quite a few purchases (see Apple iSight and Tivo threads). Now I have to pay for them. I won't be buying anything until Christmas.

I elected to go with the Breitling Colt Automatic (http://www.breitling.com/en/models/aeromarine/colt_automatic/ )

I'm very pleased with it. Thanks to all for their assistance.

Now I have to go make some money.

This thread made me think a bit. Are they any good forums like FT that people can recommend that are focused on watches? Im curious to learn more and also to learn more about where to by watches. A friend just bought an AP Royal Oak and travelled pretty far to pick it up. I know there are places that sell for way under list and am curious about where to learn more about watches in general and reputable discount dealers as somewhat of a particular. Thanks for any info.

This thread made me think a bit. Are they any good forums like FT that people can recommend that are focused on watches? Im curious to learn more and also to learn more about where to by watches. A friend just bought an AP Royal Oak and travelled pretty far to pick it up. I know there are places that sell for way under list and am curious about where to learn more about watches in general and reputable discount dealers as somewhat of a particular. Thanks for any info.

I learned quite a bit from www.timezone.com (http://www.timezone.com) and www.watchnet.com (http://www.watchnet.com) .

Try them out.

How come nobody mentioned Cartier? Please hold back the flames. :)

IMHO, they make some beautiful everyday watches and I particularly like the Roadster which is really sporty in stainless steel (has a leather strap also) and Santos 100 models. The Roadster currently sells for $4250, and you can usually find it discounted 20-30% depending upon who you know and where you live.

Yes! I was wondering why noone mentioned Cartier... I think they are superb watches.

I troll ebay quite frequently looking for watches -- I snagged a pre-owned, but excellent condition two-tone Cartier Tank Auto for $1600(US) a couple of months back. :)

Yes! I was wondering why noone mentioned Cartier... I think they are superb watches.

I troll ebay quite frequently looking for watches -- I snagged a pre-owned, but excellent condition two-tone Cartier Tank Auto for $1600(US) a couple of months back. :)

My only fear with eBay is worrying about authenticity and condition on a relatively high-ticket item. Did you use an escrow service, or just cross your fingers? :) I guess if a seller has a monumental amount of feedback selling similar type pieces you can feel fairly secure, but I just get a little edgy with eBay sometimes.

I was in Geneva last weekend, and broke down and bought the IWC I've been drooling over for a while. Got a better deal on it than I could have in the US. Not as good as what I could have bought it off the web for, but trading a few bucks for not having to worry about dealing with some potentially shady web site, warranty validity, etc, it seemed worth it. Plus now it has a story and memories associated with it :)

Chris

I troll ebay quite frequently looking for watches -- I snagged a pre-owned, but excellent condition two-tone Cartier Tank Auto for $1600(US) a couple of months back. :)

Someone snagged my Cartier Pasha in Brussels last weekend for nothing -- right off my wrist. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Oh well, it was insured and they didn't do me any physical harm.

If anyone's offered a cheap Pasha on a Brussels street corner, let me know. It just might be mine. :td:

I read through this thread. There is abundant information about man's watch. I would like to know if there are suggestions about woman's. I am looking for a small and square piece. A dealer suggested Cartier tank francaise or JLC reverso duetto. Are there other nice pieces that falls into this price range(<7.5k)? Does it really make sense to spend couple grands on a quartz watch?

I read through this thread. There is abundant information about man's watch. I would like to know if there are suggestions about woman's. I am looking for a small and square piece. A dealer suggested Cartier tank francaise or JLC reverso duetto. Are there other nice pieces that falls into this price range(<7.5k)? Does it really make sense to spend couple grands on a quartz watch?

I have really mixed feelings on this. For years I would have said no, it didnt make sense to spend that much on a quartz watch. I finally talked myself out of it and literally had a quartz one (Breitling) on my wrist for a final look before buying and just couldnt pull the trigger because it was quartz. So I bought something else instead that wasnt quartz. I am pretty sure, however, that JLC makes mechanical watches for woman although most are quartz. You might check on that, their mechanical watches are superb.

Actually I just checked and from what I could see most of the JLCs for women are not quartz. I would definitely go with the hand wound or automatic rather than quartz.

Thanks for the info. The JLC reverso duetto (beautiful watch) is mechanical and the reverso classique is quartz. The price difference is about 2k.

It's funny how the sales clerk touts about quartz watches. I suspect that he will talk down quartz when his next customer is interested in mechanical only.

Thanks for the info. The JLC reverso duetto (beautiful watch) is mechanical and the reverso classique is quartz. The price difference is about 2k.

It's funny how the sales clerk touts about quartz watches. I suspect that he will talk down quartz when his next customer is interested in mechanical only.

One other thing to comment on; given the current economic situation I wouldnt even consider paying retail for a high end watch in NY. Virtually anyplace, and I mean authorized dealers not shady places, will deal on virtually all high end watches even under normal conditions. Perhaps the only exceptions, for different reasons, are Rolex, Patek and maybe Lange. Even on those you can usually get a little off retail. But this is a buyers market, big time. On JLC I would think 20%-30% off retail should be pretty easy.

I have had slightly different experience trying to find a dealer to negotiate and deal on watches. I used to have a friend who was in the business, so got watches there often for about 40-50% off retail. He would scratch someones back, get a cheap watch in return, i'd buy the watch and give up some great diners and scotch.

But that ended a few years back. So, recently I'm trying to find another IWC port PR. I have not been able to find a west or east coast dealer to give me more than 10-15% off with a cash sale. I need about 30% for it to be doable.

If anyone has success with a dealer on something like this, I would be VERY interested to know.

Many dealers who sell over the internet will give out a large discount nowadays (about 20-%30% off list). Even Amazon.com has a large collection of fine watches. But I am wary. How do I know if these watches are even authentic?

I have had slightly different experience trying to find a dealer to negotiate and deal on watches. I used to have a friend who was in the business, so got watches there often for about 40-50% off retail. He would scratch someones back, get a cheap watch in return, i'd buy the watch and give up some great diners and scotch.

But that ended a few years back. So, recently I'm trying to find another IWC port PR. I have not been able to find a west or east coast dealer to give me more than 10-15% off with a cash sale. I need about 30% for it to be doable.

If anyone has success with a dealer on something like this, I would be VERY interested to know.

Why not go vintage? Let somebody else take the depreciation hit. Later, if you decide to sell, you usually can get almost exactly what you paid for it.

Why not go vintage? Let somebody else take the depreciation hit. Later, if you decide to sell, you usually can get almost exactly what you paid for it.


might do, I actually did see one at a MIA jewelry show. It was like 50% off had been worn, but it had a nice scratch on the jewel, at at the SHOW I couldn't get a confirmation from my normal guy about how much to simply replace the saphire crystal glass.

I'll be in HKG early next year, there were nice 30% off deals in 2007, so they might be even better now. Authorized dealers as well.

Sorry, I havent had time for a detailed reply. But I have gotten over 25% off from authorized brick and morter dealers on both Breitling and JLC. timezone.com, a forum like this for watches has excellent advice. I have found 20% to be a first offer on most things at big box watch stores in Manhattan, although you have to convince them you are serious, they are happy to sell at list if you let them. I will post more later tonight, but luxury goods sales are down like 35%-40% from last year. This has got to be an excellent time to buy.