US Airways Dividend Miles (Pre-FlightFund Merger) - USAir will eliminate PIT hub

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/103-05052004-295176.html

:( :( :td:

Who didn't eventually see this coming?

PIT will remain a focus for them though, for now-- making it something akin to the STL of their network.

...be interesting to see what becomes of PIT's international network now though.

...be interesting to see what becomes of PIT's international network now though.

They'll keep it or lose one of their top 10 corporate contracts in the form of Bayer. Between the cargo and the envoy cabin, PIT-FRA is hugely profitable for US (or so sayeth various from CCY and the revenue types I've met around PIT).

The other thing this will result in is zero help from the state of PA at PHL. It will, however, result in lower airfare at PIT, which is better than taking a $500 million shot in the chops when US folds next year. In addition, US will lose it's monopoly pricing power at PIT, VFF loyalty, which both open the door for LCCs--which is still better than eating any relief that might be offered to US when they fold in a year.

Enjoy your PHL connections, folks.

I'm probably going to switch my accrual to UA, now that PIT is biting the dust. Emulating the LCC's isn't going to save USAirways........only prolong the death of the company.

Gotta burn 600K miles......any ideas?

Airline spokesman David Castelveter said the changes in Philadelphia will be the model for the rest of the network.

This seems like a promising statement, though. Granted, it may have only been in passing, but there are other hints that US plans to expand the GoFares to markets other than PHL. What do you think?

Granted, it may have only been in passing, but there are other hints that US plans to expand the GoFares to markets other than PHL. What do you think?

I've got a deed to a bridge you might be interested in....

US has shown time and time again they will will be the price loser until competition forces that in another direction. I give you CLT, which is like the second or third most expensive airfare airport in the county (despite, as US likes to say, the lowest cost-per-pax). PIT has like 6th, although I expect that to drop once US bails.

Without more long haul flying (which we keep hearing about but not see), it's going to be tough to garner that kind of revenue. Before anyone mentions the Carribean, let me point out that AA is in a far better place financially and operationally and will smash US if AA starts to lose share in the Carribean in any meaningful way. Europe is a possibility, but those yields will tank if PIT-FRA goes away (it's always been there and on a 330 for a reason).

I'm probably going to switch my accrual to UA, now that PIT is biting the dust. Emulating the LCC's isn't going to save USAirways........only prolong the death of the company.

Gotta burn 600K miles......any ideas?


If you really want to dump miles, I could use 2 Envoy fares to Ireland for my dads birthday and my college graduation.

I have mixed feelings about the PIT situation. PIT has many drawbacks: proximity to other hubs, high costs, low O&D traffic (though that's at least partly an airfare issue, like CLT) however it's not a bad gateway to the smaller cities of the eastern Midwest that aren't served from PHL or CLT - places like ERI, CAK, GRR, SBN, FWA, EVV, etc and it doesn't have the overcrowding issues that PHL, LGA or BOS do or the slot issues of DCA, which always made it a decent alternate to one of the larger cities when needing to make a connection to somewhere in the Northeast. However, with the current state of the airline, PIT cannot continue to operate as it is now.

PIT as a focus city might not be terrible - there should still be decent service to major destinations though I hope you all like the MAA EMB-170's. :rolleyes: As to international service, I would think the Bayer Express (er, PIT-FRA) would continue as noted earlier, but I wouldn't expect to see PIT-LGW next summer.

In the long term if they can stage a turnaround they need to think about a hub further out west, though not only is the lack of available cash an issue, so is the lack of a suitable airport. MCI, which looked to have tons of gates open when I was there recently, might be OK geographically if it was a decent facility, but it's not (you can't go 6 gates without having to reclear security).

I do feel for all of you based in PIT though (employees and FF's).

As sad as I am to hear this fairly expected news, I sit here thinking "if the FRA flight stays, so do I". And I dont even fly to Europe that often! However for the times that I do it is much preferable than going thru PHL. CLT is fine, but out of the way for a trip to FRA (much the same way it would be to go through PHL to go anywhere). Its also a nice gateway for award flights.

I think the wild card is how radically the flight network changes from the de-emphasis of the hubs. They talk about the need to do more point to point, so who knows what the flights/prices will be like to go PIT-PHL-SFO. Also I think they underestimate how much business they will lose if they try to keep some respectable amount of hub flying through PHL, only to see customers go through ORD on UA instead - to keep reasonable flight times. Look where PHL is on a map - for 90% of current connecting customers, it is out of the way for any point west.

Anyway, again, how radically they change the network is the most important thing. I dont mind connections. I do mind ridiculous routings that cost me more. I think they will basically lose the lion's share of the PIT market quickly. As I have said many times, PIT folks are loyal (painfully so) and this decision will make most of them lose it - even business customers. All of the decisions to pay more to support the local carrier will vanish and most will gladly switch to the cheapest. The anecdote I use is when Nabisco closed down its bakery in town, there was a spontaneous boycott of Nabisco products (Oreos, etc). A friend who works for the big grocery chain in town told me that sales were down 30% FOR 2 YEARS and havent really recovered.

The "no RJs with F" is starting to sink in now too.

How is this anything but a formalization of the steady decline that has been occuring over the last 3 years?

My predictions:

1) I doubt that FRA will go away.

2) I'll bet PIT retains direct West Coast service albeit at a reduced level. The RJs have to be feeding something other than each other just as they do at CVG.

3) A bunch of essentially redundant East Coast stuff is going to go to CLT & PHL.

4) It's more about the support facilities than it is passenger traffic. They want to ditch the maintenance, training and crew support stuff in PIT.

Look at the forest from the trees folks...

PIT's a great airport, the people are nice, US has been there forever, PIT-FRA makes money, there's good shopping in the airport, PIT won't have the gazillion non-stops we used to have - yada yada yada....

Bottom line: US does NOT have the passenger loads or the cash to maintain three major hubs with two of them being in the Northeast. Nobody is saying PIT is a bad place, but if one of the three hubs must be de-hubbed and turned into a focus city, it is going to be PIT. All this other stuff is secondary. Think of the alternative - de-hubbing CLT? No way that's going to happen. It's position in the SE ensures its survival. Do you think anyone from Virginia south is going to stay with a carrier that forces them to connect in either PIT or PHL? No way. CLT is also a major gateway to the Caribbean, the only portion of US's traffic that CCY admits to being profitable. So PHL & CLT it is with PIT as a focus city.

US will never make money hauling passengers at $49 one way. The longer that SouthWest forces them into this type of fare, the faster the company demise will happen.

Now that the inevitable slashing of flights at PIT has been announced, I'm hopeful that we'll see increased service from other carriers.

My perspective is while this was completely expected it is essentially completing a suicide. PHL is just a really inferior hub. Operations there are a disaster, it is in a really crowded air corridor and gives them no advantage for people coming from Boston, NYC or the DC area. This means from NY I have to go to PHL to get anywhere which is a stupidly short flight with frequent awful delays. Since I am ususally going west from NY the jog south is useless. If I were going south CLT would be much better for lots of reasons, weather and traffic being most important. At least if I was heading west PIT was in the right direction and didnt have the horrible operations they have at PHL. Oh well. It does make my waffling relative to my flying on US easier to come to a conclusion on, however. Someone just booked a couple tickets for me on the shuttle yesterday Time to call back and have them rebooked on Acela. Im just not going to fly an airline that has most of my connections being Dash 8s to PHL. Sorry for all the great people in PIT, both at US and the city. I think it is about over optimistic to think this will help PIT much. I dont see LCCs going in there. I think WN went to PHL to block JetBlue, I dont see anyone going to PIT in this environment. I think it will be a major hit to the PIT economy as they just lost good air transportation as a feature of the city when they try to sell it. Sad day.

"3) A bunch of essentially redundant East Coast stuff is going to go to CLT & PHL."

Maybe this is part of the reason for the start of PWM - CLT flights, since PWM - PIT is going away??

i love how they tout the number of people within 2 hours of philly as customers... as if anyone from the nyc region would come to philly to fly from there...

shockingly PIT had 40% O&D traffic compared to CLT's 18%... but i guess it makes sense to get rid of PIT for US... and i dont see any other carrier likely to pick them up. For me its a tough call on which carrier to switch to... hopefully jetblue comes in soon!

[QUOTE=pitsheel]i love how they tout the number of people within 2 hours of philly as customers... as if anyone from the nyc region would come to philly to fly from there...


just wondering if they would offer a direct airrail service from midtown Manhattan to Philly Airport. Kind of the other way, Continental ships Philly people to EWR. Since it takes an hour anyway to get to a NYC airport from Manhattan, a 1 hour 30 minutes direct train ride would be perfect. Question: could that technically be done (rails connecting the Amtrak line with the Septa airport line) and would it be cheaper to operate say 12 trains a day between Penn Station and PHL airport than 20 or 30 planes?

or even better? where do the PHL-WAS trains go? anyway near PHL airport? build a trainstation there and eliminate those stupid flights between DC and PHL, too.

I cant see how there is even a chance of that working. EWR is much closer. And an hour is really worst case. I have made it in half that or less in a cab at the right time of day. The rail to JFK will also add to the ability of people to get to local airports from Manhattan. Plus of course the millions of people in the burbs who are close to one of the NY airports.

The end is near, repent your sins USAirways FFers! :)

The steady decline in USAirways flights will keep on going, so really no news here. Give the other airlines a chance. I might make AA Exec Plat this or next year, and I can't be happier to have left USAirways... ^

The end is near, repent your sins USAirways FFers! :)

^

You may be right. The usaviation board reports that WN is looking for CLT gates. That and the doom and gloom with the unions where the firebrands say they would rather burn the place to the ground than compromise, lead me to believe that my effort to fly AA more may pay off. This is in contrast to the warm and fuzzy feeling I had when I saw all the Star Alliance columns in DCA this week and the big ads in the newspapers.

My problem is that I am a short hopper and there is no way I can make EXP. And do not tell me, yes you can with 200 segments. :)

My problem is that I am a short hopper and there is no way I can make EXP. And do not tell me, yes you can with 200 segments. :)

so take a mileage run or two on YUP or I fares. with 50% bonus pts, an I-fare trip RDU-LHR via JFK is almost 12000 points.

[QUOTE=biggs]You may be right. The usaviation board reports that WN is looking for CLT gates. QUOTE]

Do you know if WN is looking at gates at PIT? Or any other carriers for that matter?

What's new. They have already marginalized it. If you have to choose between PIT and PHL, there is so much more origination and destination trafffic in Philly. This is new management, obviously intelligent, and likely thoughtful in its deliberations. Where the proposition comes unstuck, is if Philly remains operationally dysfunctional. Holdover managers will have told these guys the problem is fixed. Regular customers might take exception to that. Having bet the farm on the assumption the famous operational difficulties are behind them, if that should prove to have been overly optimistic, it will just be a matter of months.

Do you know if WN is looking at gates at PIT? Or any other carriers for that matter?

LUV folks were apparently seen nosing around the airport after Roddey lost the election. It was reported in a few places in town, but I think the ACAA was trying to keep it low key at the time.

I'd say that LUV will wait until US pulls down to whatever they are going to pull down to, and see what the OAs do in terms of increased hub service.

LUV folks were apparently seen nosing around the airport after Roddey lost the election. It was reported in a few places in town, but I think the ACAA was trying to keep it low key at the time.

I'd say that LUV will wait until US pulls down to whatever they are going to pull down to, and see what the OAs do in terms of increased hub service.

...and see how sweet of a deal ACAA is willing to pitch after US dumps many of their remaining gates.

PIT=MCI

Look for everyone getting in on a piece of this action - PIT is also going to become one of the cheapest airports to O/D out of in the country...which is not necessarily a bad thing for PIT residents...just forget about most of those direct flights to secondary cities.

This might be a really dumb question, but why has US chosen PHL over PIT? It seems to me like PIT is a much better facility which was basically built just for them, and they have virtually no competition there. The place is really getting depressing to fly though now when I think about how busy it used to be. I'm sure there are reasons, but I would think making PIT their main hub could help more than hurt at this point, so I'm wondering why they did things this way.

[QUOTE=biggs]You may be right. The usaviation board reports that WN is looking for CLT gates. QUOTE]

Do you know if WN is looking at gates at PIT? Or any other carriers for that matter?

Could this mean that PIT-PHL will be the new LAS-LAX type shuttle that SW has on the left coast (or any of their other high-freqency, shuttle type operations that SW does so well)? Didn't Airtran try this and pull out?

Could this mean that PIT-PHL will be the new LAS-LAX type shuttle that SW has on the left coast (or any of their other high-freqency, shuttle type operations that SW does so well)? Didn't Airtran try this and pull out?

Airtran pulled out, but they were trying like 2x/day in each direction, where the "good" folks at US matched their fares all day long on the flights every 90 minutes or so.

Presumably US won't have the kind of frequency once it pulls back at PIT, when US will lose the VFFs who buried the Airtran experiments by enjoying PIT-ORD, PIT-LGA, and PIT-PHL pricing by airtran but service by US.

This might be a really dumb question, but why has US chosen PHL over PIT?

Despite the fact that the PIT airport facility is nice and easy to use, PHL has the population base and much more significant O&D traffic. Financially speaking, PHL is the most important hub in the US system no questions asked.

But PIT is a more functional hub for connecting pax - a segment of the flying population which US seems to ignore. PHL and CLT are too out-of-the-way for a significant percentage of connecting PAX. US desperately needs a viable hub (or mini-hub) in the Midwest. If PIT is not going to be the one, then US needs to find another airport to serve this purpose. US is the only major carrier which does not have a hub West of Pennsylvania, and I think this is a significant contributing factor as to why they're in such bad financial shape.

But PIT is a more functional hub for connecting pax...

Only in terms of its physical layout and its ability to operate in poor weather. Unfortunately, its fees are nearly THREE times as much as at CLT. That, and US simply can not afford to run three hubs - they have neither the revenue or the connecting traffic to make a three-hub system truly viable, particularly when PIT and PHL are in such close proximity to each other. It makes no sense for US to offer a full series of transcons out of PHL and do the same out of PIT when they are in the same state and less than an hours flight time from each other. It certainly may be more convenient for a passenger in ROC to fly thru PIT on his or her way to SFO but that in and of itself does not make a double-hub system within the same state financially viable.

What this means though is a lot of smaller cities are probably going to be dropped from the route system. Places like TOL, LAN, FNT, FWA, GRR and the like are not likely to be around after PIT is de-hubbed.

What this means though is a lot of smaller cities are probably going to be dropped from the route system. Places like TOL, LAN, FNT, FWA, GRR and the like are not likely to be around after PIT is de-hubbed.

Yeah, and what absolutely kills me about this plan is that it assumes that folks who were burned when US retreated from LGA, BOS, etc the first time are going to give them the time of day now.

I said a year ago, planning a turnaround using the Philly hub, and shoving people on small planes, was foolish. Now the wagons are circled at PHL, getting ready to do battle with an outfit whose costs are significantly below theirs, and who, curiously, use full size planes, as do the majority of the LCC's they bellyache about all the time. The one advantage they have over a typical LCC is they are a network carrier. They can actually check a bag and have it go somewhere (no wisecracks). So now comes the announcement that in conjunction with closing the PIT hub, they will emulate the enemy. More point to point, thus exposing themselves to direct comparison to a Southwest. It's a classic meltdown. New guys making decisions based on information from the very people who put them where they are, lenders like GE backing off from comitments to finance those dumb planes, more threats to bankrupt the place. It's schizoid. Which company will show up today? I can't bear to watch.

What this means though is a lot of smaller cities are probably going to be dropped from the route system. Places like TOL, LAN, FNT, FWA, GRR and the like are not likely to be around after PIT is de-hubbed.

and not just the small fry either-- as the Boyd prediction from last October 13th put it:


At worst, if one can call it that, Pittsburgh International will settle down to around 4.8 million enplanements.

What needs to be understood is that without a connecting hub operation, Pittsburgh can only support nonstop service to somewhere between 25 and 30 big markets. Beyond that, it gets real dicey.

A simple glance at the US Airways service pattern just in the Northeast gives a pretty good idea of what to expect should Allegheny County and the airline fail to come to terms. Other than hubs at CVG and CLE, service in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic will pretty much be relegated to the large East Coast cities. Forget service to mid-size commercial centers such as ALB, BUF, BDL, and CMH. Without the cross-feed of a large connecting hub operation, there simply is not enough traffic to support such service at PIT. Not to mention the fact that there likely isn't an airline that would apply assets to such O&D markets.

Then take a look at the smaller communities that depend on US Airways' hub for access to the rest of the air transportation system. If US Airways closes down PIT, these places are in deep yogurt. Airports in places like Parkersburg and Johnstown can look forward to a great future as GA facilities, because other hubbing airlines won't get near them. The economics simply don't work.


http://aviationplanning.com/asrc1.htm

Only in terms of its physical layout and its ability to operate in poor weather. Unfortunately, its fees are nearly THREE times as much as at CLT. That, and US simply can not afford to run three hubs - they have neither the revenue or the connecting traffic to make a three-hub system truly viable, particularly when PIT and PHL are in such close proximity to each other. It makes no sense for US to offer a full series of transcons out of PHL and do the same out of PIT when they are in the same state and less than an hours flight time from each other. It certainly may be more convenient for a passenger in ROC to fly thru PIT on his or her way to SFO but that in and of itself does not make a double-hub system within the same state financially viable.


Three times as much as CLT, but what in comparison to PHL?

PHL is the new BWI. USAir will get destroyed exactly where they are calling the battle fleet to.

PIT was and is the castle -- designed FOR USAir. It has superior facilities, staff, and location. They have an unmatched presence there, with no Southwest. Renegotiation would bring the per person fee down.

PHL should be de-hubbed. It should be a focus city purely for it population -- much like Boston, DC, and New York. PIT should be the gateway to the west.

It wouldn't surprise me to see some of the PIT RJ flights from the South go to IAD, to connect/codeshare with UA if US stops service to some of the Rust Belt cities.

From a passenger's point of view, I agree with those above who strongly prefer PIT over PHL.

PIT has reduced costs, but not as fast as US has taken flights out of the facility. The cost per passenger would be considerably lower, and comparable to the other hubs, if the number of flights were comparable to CLT or PHL or pre 9/11.

The post below is dead on.....US will slit it's own throat in PHL attempting to battle with SW. PIT could have been a bastion for US to reconfigure their system, but the mistrust that they have cultivated with the unions and ACAA prevent this option from even being considered.


Three times as much as CLT, but what in comparison to PHL?

PHL is the new BWI. USAir will get destroyed exactly where they are calling the battle fleet to.

PIT was and is the castle -- designed FOR USAir. It has superior facilities, staff, and location. They have an unmatched presence there, with no Southwest. Renegotiation would bring the per person fee down.

PHL should be de-hubbed. It should be a focus city purely for it population -- much like Boston, DC, and New York. PIT should be the gateway to the west.

What this means though is a lot of smaller cities are probably going to be dropped from the route system. Places like TOL, LAN, FNT, FWA, GRR and the like are not likely to be around after PIT is de-hubbed.

Or they could replace the Saabs and run RJs from PHL or CLT. It's not like everyone flying to those places is originating in PIT. And the other airlines don't seem to have any trouble running RJs into those places, I've been on a few...

Three times as much as CLT, but what in comparison to PHL?

PHL's costs are lower than PIT's. However, the point is moot as the revenue generated by PHL's O&D traffic is many times that of PIT. There is a reason airlines like BA, AF and LH fly widebodies across the Atlantic to PHL and not to PIT.

Again, PIT is a great airport physically (I'd rather connect there over PHL any day of the week..) but US simply can not afford to run three hubs.

What may come public in the next few days is that the PIT union employees have dug in. They still hold huge voting blocks in all relevant unions.

Aside from the animosity that held them against Siegel, they now have a common cause - to punish the company that they now know will cost them their jobs. They will not vote FOR anything - good or bad - at this point.

Its pretty silly in fact that US announced their dehubbing plan before going into some of the negotiations. Now, none of the PIT employees have a reason for listening and will vote no, no matter what. Their best case scenarios now will be to be moved to another city. At the pay they receive now (and with no financial incentive from the company to do so) they will walk.

Or they could replace the Saabs and run RJs from PHL or CLT. It's not like everyone flying to those places is originating in PIT. And the other airlines don't seem to have any trouble running RJs into those places, I've been on a few...

They could do that, but it will only increase the traffic at PHL, exascerbating the delay issues there. This is going to really hit the state of WV hard, since most of that state's air service is on US though PIT.

Frankly, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes to close PIT down as the main domestic hub. One could keep PHL as a focus city and European hub while keeping PIT as the main connecting point for Northeast traffic headed West or South. PIT is a tremendously easy hub to navigate, as is CLT -- PHL is a mess as we all know. There has got to be some way to reduce the costs at PIT by negotiating with the airport authority. One other thing is that PIT still has maintenance and training facilities located there; it strikes me that there would be inefficiencies in having maintenance facilities at a non-hub airport.

I think this decision is the beginning of the end...

I disbelieve the assumption that PHL is an inherently problematic hub. A challenge? Sure. Impossible? I don't think so.

I also expect that they've got something unpleasant in mind for the IAM at PIT. If they win the outsourcing thing and ditch the 737 fleet what has the IAM got left?

I disbelieve the assumption that PHL is an inherently problematic hub. A challenge? Sure. Impossible? I don't think so.

I also expect that they've got something unpleasant in mind for the IAM at PIT. If they win the outsourcing thing and ditch the 737 fleet what has the IAM got left?

I disagree. Even if a miracle happened and all of the PHL employees were replaced by people who gave a damn that wouldnt fix the weather or the traffic in that part of the country. They just cant overcome that. A hub out of that east coast mess would have been much better. In addition it adds nothing to their connection network given CLT and DCA and their focus cities in LGA and BOS. Its on the map. It isnt in the right place to help them.

i suspect the question of whether SW enters PIT revolves around airport costs. My understanding is that the costs of operating out of PIT are fairly high. The costs of building up the airport are passed along in terms of high landing fees. SW will have little interest in paying off the costs of the US Air palace. However, if the fees were lowered, i suspect the chance of getting SW would be quite good. Naturally, if SW entered PIT, it would be bad for US Airways, but the hand writing for U is probably on the wall anyways.

Frankly, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes to close PIT down as the main domestic hub. One could keep PHL as a focus city and European hub while keeping PIT as the main connecting point for Northeast traffic headed West or South.


It makes no sense to run the majority of your connecting traffic through PIT if PHL is your European gateway. Run the connections through PIT and there is nobody to fill those A-330s and 767s off to Europe every evening. It also greatly reduces PHL's ability to attract Star partner traffic. If you reduce the flights in/out of PHL then you are providing fewer options for Star Alliance members when they step off a LH flight (for example).

I disagree. Even if a miracle happened and all of the PHL employees were replaced by people who gave a damn that wouldnt fix the weather or the traffic in that part of the country. They just cant overcome that. A hub out of that east coast mess would have been much better. In addition it adds nothing to their connection network given CLT and DCA and their focus cities in LGA and BOS. Its on the map. It isnt in the right place to help them.

That is essentially the same argument that said that SWA could never succeed in the Northeast. So far as I can tell they never even blinked. They're in Philly now. I doubt that they will be in the least but phased by the experience.

The "East Coast mess", as an intrinsic and unfixable problem, is a myth. Legacy airlines going the way of dinosaurs seems to be a more reliable bet.

PHL is the most underserved market in the country. It's ripe for serious expansion. It will happen with or without US.

...PHL is the most underserved market in the country. It's ripe for serious expansion. It will happen with or without US...

Most likely without...no mention on the US forum that WN has now formerly started up ops at PHL. The 'changes' US is making now should have been made 4-5 years ago ala HP. What everybody forgets is that WN will force all the other legacy carriers at PHL to drop their fares also. Even biz travellers that can't stomach WN will now be able to look at any of the other legacy carriers.

It makes no sense to run the majority of your connecting traffic through PIT if PHL is your European gateway. Run the connections through PIT and there is nobody to fill those A-330s and 767s off to Europe every evening. It also greatly reduces PHL's ability to attract Star partner traffic. If you reduce the flights in/out of PHL then you are providing fewer options for Star Alliance members when they step off a LH flight (for example).

True, but you could still keep PHL as an international hub by running a bank of flights into and out of PHL to meet the international flights, much the same way DL uses JFK. My point was that PIT is a superior domestic hub operationally and geographically as well as being a much better facility to handle connecting traffic. As I posted earlier, choosing PHL over PIT will also most likely mean that a number of smaller cities in the Midwest will wind up being dropped from the route system if PIT is dehubbed. Even for those cities not dropped, PHL over PIT means that a lot of city-pairs in the remaining system will no longer be viable. PHL stinks as a domestic hub no matter how you cut it, whereas PIT was designed for that purpose. Any airport that does not allow for simultaneous parallel ILS approaches in bad weather is inherently prone to weather delays and that's a problem at PHL rather than PIT.

Somehow over the last 5 years US went irreversibly down a road to making PHL the European hub. 5 years ago there were roughly the same number of US flights to Europe at each hub. In the past few years, they expanded significantly - and all went through PHL. Overall of course PHL has like 10-20x the transatlantic traffic of PIT - partially due to many other carriers (AF, BA, LH) being there too.

Once they got the new Intl terminal, and started up all this infrastructure, I dont think there was any turning back - even if (as we tend to agree) PIT is more efficient, its a sunk cost now. They cant/wont switch all of this to PIT or CLT. I think the transatlantic hub decision is the critical piece of the entire puzzle. From O&D traffic alone it seems to make sense (witness other carriers there), and once that is in place, all the other (domestic) scheduling factors work in that direction. They cant have one European hub and one domestic hub - just doesnt make sense given their size.

Whats sad is there is no fallback position now. The battle for PHL is really the battle for the airline.

...you could still keep PHL as an international hub by running a bank of flights into and out of PHL to meet the international flights, much the same way DL uses JFK.

There are VERY few cities in the US Airways system that have the traffic or the revenue to run one set of flights to PHL each late afternoon/evening to PHL for the Euro-connections in addition to another set of flights to the PIT hub for all the passengers connecting elsewhere. They simply do not have the passenger volume to make that scenario financially viable.

Somehow over the last 5 years US went irreversibly down a road to making PHL the European hub.

O&D traffic drove that decision. PHL was the largest city on the USA east coast where US Airways had a chance of becoming the dominant European air carrier. DC, NYC, and BOS all presented major competition from other, larger domestic airlines (UA, AA, DL, CO) and with the exception of ATL and MIA, none of the cities in the southeast have the O&D needed to drive a European gateway. PHL was in essence, the best they could do with what they had to work with.

There are VERY few cities in the US Airways system that have the traffic or the revenue to run one set of flights to PHL each late afternoon/evening to PHL for the Euro-connections in addition to another set of flights to the PIT hub for all the passengers connecting elsewhere. They simply do not have the passenger volume to make that scenario financially viable.

I thought that was the entire point of the new RJ armada (size to fit demand)?

I thought that was the entire point of the new RJ armada (size to fit demand)?


It was. But using this three-hubbed scenario, look at a city like Richmond, Va. They have a decent amount of O&D and some of it actually goes to Europe. If US keeps PIT as the connecting hub, PHL as the Euro-traffic hub and CLT for anyone connecting south/west or to the Caribbean they will need three sets of hub flights (not to mention the point-to-point stuff to LGA, BOS, etc). It's running these short flights to three hubs that's killing them. It's a luxury they can't afford.

It was. But using this three-hubbed scenario, look at a city like Richmond, Va. They have a decent amount of O&D and some of it actually goes to Europe. If US keeps PIT as the connecting hub, PHL as the Euro-traffic hub and CLT for anyone connecting south/west or to the Caribbean they will need three sets of hub flights (not to mention the point-to-point stuff to LGA, BOS, etc). It's running these short flights to three hubs that's killing them. It's a luxury they can't afford.

Okay, but it's arguable that hubbing folks via PHL to anywhere but Europe is a luxury they cannot afford, from an operational standpoint.

LUV knows this. When and if US folds, PHL becomes virtually all point to point (LUV) and hub flights (every other major).

LUV knows this. When and if US folds, PHL becomes virtually all point to point (LUV) and hub flights (every other major).

that sounds about right. BWI-ish, in fact.

O&D traffic drove that decision. PHL was the largest city on the USA east coast where US Airways had a chance of becoming the dominant European air carrier. DC, NYC, and BOS all presented major competition from other, larger domestic airlines (UA, AA, DL, CO) and with the exception of ATL and MIA, none of the cities in the southeast have the O&D needed to drive a European gateway. PHL was in essence, the best they could do with what they had to work with.

I know - thats why I said it in paragraph 2.

Didnt mean to imply I didnt "know" what the "somehow" was - just that it was a sequence of decisions, aided by the O&D traffic, that put them in the spot they are in now. They are past the point of no return on PHL by years, if not a decade, of decisions.

What I find interesting is that for the past two years I've connected in PHL on my way to/from SEA and other destinations from time to time. After about 200 one way trips (100 roundtrips), I've had problems in PHL maybe 5 times. And, never once was a connection missed. And, bags were lost once -- and that turned out was DCA's fault. In PIT, the record is far worse, with connections missed and more bags lost. PHL is nowhere near an ideal airport for a hub but it's not as bad as everyone here likes to make it out to be. Any major airport has problems with weather. Heck, even PIT and CLT have had major weather issues from time to time!

Also, no one said US is dropping PIT as a connecting facility. What you will see in PIT is lots of E170s from the east coast cities with mainline aircraft out west and to Florida. And, we will see mainline thru flights at strategic hours from BOS, LGA and DCA. We will no longer see mainline flights to BUF, BOS, EWR, etc from PIT. Instead, we will see those existing mainline aircraft flying point-to-point routes from BOS, LGA, DCA and probably cities like CMH, RDU, RIC, GSO, PVD, etc. With these point-to-point routes, all US will really need in PIT are the E170s, RJs and select mainline flights, as you'll be losing connecting passengers who opt for the nonstops. How anyone can say this doesn't make sense perplexes me.

I know - thats why I said it in paragraph 2. Didnt mean to imply I didnt "know" what the "somehow" was...


Sorry. I did not mean to imply that you did not know what you knew about the "somehow" how PHL ended up where it is today. I was actually trying to re-inforce what you really said in your implication! :)

;)

Oh, heck.... it's after 5 PM here so it's time for a libation. :eek:

Btw, anyone in the DCA area this Thursday (may 13) should look at the community thread for the DC Happy Hour. ^