Online Travel Booking and Bidding Agencies - Another reason not to use Priceline hotels: Involuntarily walked – in advance!!!

The BFT board has an astounding discussion going on (in Member Announcements), where at least two Priceline/BFT customers purchased a hotel room through Priceline, and were subsequently told by Priceline that the hotel was overbooked and that they would instead be staying at a different hotel (presumably in the same zone and same rating).

I have never heard of someone being walked in advance -- Priceline or not. The only reasonable explanation would be that the hotel, after having made a number of rooms available to Priceline at an inexpensive price, later discovered that they would in fact be able to sell those rooms at a higher price. There can really be no other reason.

And here is the problem: Priceline’s own terms and conditions (in the FAQ on Priceline.com, under Hotel rooms:Terms and Conditions) are unambiguous:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> Once hotel rooms are purchased through priceline.com, they cannot be cancelled or changed by Priceline or the hotel that accepts your offer and no refunds will be given. </font>

The key here is the walking in advance. It can only happen when the hotel and Priceline agree to it, and that is an absolute violation of Priceline’s own T&Cs.

(Not surprisingly, La Contessa della BFT completely missed the point on this and contends that Priceline is not at fault, but that’s not the issue here.)

So, one add one more risk factor to the Priceline equation: non-cancelability for any night, location roulette, good chance at getting least desirable room at the property – and now, having Priceline switch your location after telling you where you’ll be staying, in complete contradiciton of their own T&Cs.

I'm aware of at least two properties where this is going on; one where the property is in liquidation (one of the Hyatt props. in the Orlando area) and one property where the renovations are taking a few weeks longer than expected (rooms were pre-sold, in anticipation of a 15SEP opening and it's turning out to be more like 01OCT, and the property isn't taking reservations through central *wood res until 15OCT).

I'm not sure what the situation is in Orlando (my interest in Central Florida has been pretty minimal for a very long time), but the other situation, at the new Westin Casuarina in Las Vegas is of more interest, as I'm booked at the property as well, a few weeks down the line. Here's my read:

Stuff happens. My family is in hospitality, and we have walked customers in advance before, typically with a refund for the nights in question and an equivalent amount of free future stay credit, besides paying for their rooms at the alternate property. As there are no directly comparable properties in our area (IE, no oceanview, and we're oceanfront), we recognize that people are going to be disappointed, but there's only so many rooms, and there's only so many people willing to sleep with strangers....hmmn, maybe we should run specials in the lounge and encourage hookups.......hrm. Better email mom with that one....

Another scenario is that aa high-value client (say, a group that returns twice yearly) needs a few more rooms, and one of their days is sold out or oversold; I'd be an idiot not to walk someone else (and honestly make a customer for life out of them with the refund and the bonus), voluntarily or rarely, involuntarily.

So what's the big deal if a PL customer is walked? It's a prepaid reservation for a hotel of a given quality, in a given area, for a given night. Now, while I rarely agree with a certain BFT prima donna, it seems like to me that if the above conditions are met, both the seller and the contracted service provider (PL and the hotel, respectively) have done what they promised to do.

Eric

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by VibeGuy:
So what's the big deal if a PL customer is walked? It's a prepaid reservation for a hotel of a given quality, in a given area, for a given night. Now, while I rarely agree with a certain BFT prima donna, it seems like to me that if the above conditions are met, both the seller and the contracted service provider (PL and the hotel, respectively) have done what they promised to do.

Eric</font>

It's a case of what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Priceline makes a big deal in their terms and conditions about the fact that once made the reservations can't be changed or cancelled, then allows hotels to do this this kind of "guest dumping" of Priceline customers who may have already made plans around their rock-solid, chiseled-in-stone "nonchangeable, noncancellable" reservation (perhaps even having other family members book there on non-Priceline reservations and giving out the hotel's number as their contact for an airline or other emergency situations).
If they are going to allow the hotels this kind of leeway, why not allow Priceline customers the same right: "Hey, Priceline, you gave me Hotel A but I want to be moved Hotel B. It's a Priceline hotel of the same rating in the same zone. I'm still getting just what we both agreed to and what I paid for, so move me". Same principle (but in this situation done for the convenience of the customer, not the hotel), right?

wideman, it looks like VibeGuy debunked your theory (stated as fact) that there is only ONE reason this could happen.

I can think of reasons not to use PL, but this scenario does not bother me.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dogcanyon:
It's a case of what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Priceline makes a big deal in their terms and conditions about the fact that once made the reservations can't be changed or cancelled, then allows hotels to do this this kind of "guest dumping" of Priceline customers who may have already made plans around their rock-solid, chiseled-in-stone "nonchangeable, noncancellable" reservation (perhaps even having other family members book there on non-Priceline reservations and giving out the hotel's number as their contact for an airline or other emergency situations).
If they are going to allow the hotels this kind of leeway, why not allow Priceline customers the same right: "Hey, Priceline, you gave me Hotel A but I want to be moved Hotel B. It's a Priceline hotel of the same rating in the same zone. I'm still getting just what we both agreed to and what I paid for, so move me". Same principle (but in this situation done for the convenience of the customer, not the hotel), right?

</font>

I tend to agree with this argument.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wideman:
Another reason not to use Priceline hotels: Involuntarily walked – in advance!!! </font>
wideman:
I got your point! I guess, "legally" you are correct.
However, I am going to use Priceline again and again ... I believe it's a very good business model, and it saved me a lot of money.
I actually stayed in 4-star-hotels, I would not have stayed without Priceline - all for about $100/night: Marriott MUC, Hyatt NYC, Hyatt CDG to name a few...

Vibeguy raises a valid instance where an advance bump is appropriate: when a hotel doesn't open on schedule (or is unforeseeably closed down). In the actual event described on BFT, this does not appear to be the case -- it is strictly a business decision.

The potential problems listed by dogcanyon (making plans based on the originally-purchased hotel) are very valid. Additionally, it's not hard to see how this can easily be abused to the detriment of Priceline customers -- consider this semi-hypothetical scenario:

In Boston, both the Hilton and the Park Plaza are rated 3* hotels in the same Priceline zone. The Hilton, a far superior property, will make rooms available to Priceline for $70/night, and the Park Plaza makes them available at $50/night.

Suppose you are looking for a room 2 months in advance, and Priceline has Hilton inventory for your dates but not Park Plaza inventory. You bid $50, and it's no-go. You raise your bid to $70, and you get the Hilton. Now a month after you bought the room, the Park Plaza makes a block of rooms available to Priceline. Priceline sends you email saying that the Hilton really isn't available but that you've got another 3* hotel in the same zone, the Park Plaza.

It's a win-win situation for Priceline: they get to pocket the extra $20/night. And a lose-lose situation for you: you're staying in a crummy place, and despite your informed bidding you paid the rate for the Hilton instead of the Park Plaza.

To me, it would be as if I a travel agent sold me confirmed 1st-class tickets to Hong Kong on Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines, then a week before the flight told me that they'd decided to switch the flights to United.

Wideman, you're correct. No more PL bookings for me.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wideman:
..... consider this semi-hypothetical scenario:

In Boston, both the Hilton and the Park Plaza are rated 3* hotels in the same Priceline zone. The Hilton, a far superior property, will make rooms available to Priceline for $70/night, and the Park Plaza makes them available at $50/night.

Suppose you are looking for a room 2 months in advance, and Priceline has Hilton inventory for your dates but not Park Plaza inventory. You bid $50, and it's no-go. You raise your bid to $70, and you get the Hilton. Now a month after you bought the room, the Park Plaza makes a block of rooms available to Priceline. Priceline sends you email saying that the Hilton really isn't available but that you've got another 3* hotel in the same zone, the Park Plaza.

It's a win-win situation for Priceline: they get to pocket the extra $20/night. And a lose-lose situation for you: you're staying in a crummy place, and despite your informed bidding you paid the rate for the Hilton instead of the Park Plaza.

To me, it would be as if I a travel agent sold me confirmed 1st-class tickets to Hong Kong on Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines, then a week before the flight told me that they'd decided to switch the flights to United.</font>

wideman:
So, what would you do when this happens to you?
That's what I would do:
First, find out, how both hotels are. I may post this question on FlyerTalk.
Second, if Hilton is the better hotel, I would call Hilton Boston direct and explain the situation.
Third, I would wait and see, and eventually cancel the PL reservation.
In any event, I always call the reservation service of the hotel chain after PL gives me the reservation and ask them to ad my member number... that might help in such a situation.
BTW, I don't think, PL would perform "your semi-hypothetical scenario". I would not, if I would be a manager at PL, and you would not, right? WSJ and others are waiting for such a story.

While the latter scenario of the $50 bulk rate property being substituted for the $70 bulk rate product is, in fact, sleazy, nobody is forcing anyone to bid anything above the minimum considered bid for a star level. In addition, properties can maintain a number of rate classes for PL to book into, so raising a bid is no guarantee of getting one property over another - there's published work on how PL assigns rooms between multiple properties in the same zone, and I don't want to rehash it here, but suffice to say, since PL availability changes fairly dynamically in Worldspan (at the request of the participating properties), it's not impossible for rejections at a lower price to suddenly becoming winning bids at any point. It happens all the time, in fact.

Exploiting that fact and walking people to a property with lower PL bulk rates would certainly be profitable for PL. Good bidding strategy is resulting in PL users getting rates 7% above the bulk rate. Factoring in the surcharge, PL is still making their money on a pretty slim spread. The thing is, nobody has been able to indicate a case of PL walking customers in advance for revenue management reasons.

The case with the NYC property that has BFL all atwitter is an outlier. I honestly believe a glitch was made in loading availability into Worldspan, and I think the hotel is doing the right thing by "pre-walking" guests. It's not a violation of the contract between PL and the end-user; it's possibly a violation of the contract between PL and the property, but every indication so far is that someone made an honest mistake. Stuff happens.

I'll eat a big un-tasty piece of crow pie if someone can provide clear, compelling evidence, to the standards of American jurisprudence in civil cases, that PL is systematically moving customers around in order to support higher-revenue reservations at their property partners.

Eric, Who Likes Game Birds A Lot

When something like this happens once, I can see how reasonable people would conclude that it was an honest mistake.

However, the BFT discussion makes it clear that Priceline pulled a similar switcheroo with another customer (coincidentally or not, also in New York). It might all be perfectly innocent, or it might be a case of Priceline and their hotels having an understanding that advance walking is ok when it makes business sense to do so.

(And the second case is almost certainly not some Internaut pushing the 'me too' button -- the individual in question appears to have reported making a reservation in February for an August trip, then reported Priceline notifying her of an advance-walk in July.)

Now I have neither the ability nor the interest and certainly not the access to infortation to demonstrate "clear, compelling evidence, to the standards of American jurisprudence in civil cases" that Priceline is SleazeJobbing its customers. As for Priceline violating its own Terms and Conditions, it seems to me that the thing speaks for itself, as the res ipsa loquitor crowd might say.

As for the bottom line, it is certainly true that much of the time, USAFAN and other Priceline customers will be pleased with the result. For me, though, the risk of having a bad stay using Priceline have reached the point where the potential savings are no longer worth the potential risk.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by VibeGuy:
It's not a violation of the contract between PL and the end-user; </font>

I'd say it is, especially once Priceline is made aware of the situation and doesn't force the hotel to honor the reservation. Here's a direct quote from the Terms and Conditions section on the Priceline web site:

Once hotel rooms are purchased through priceline.com, they cannot be cancelled or changed by priceline or the hotel that accepts your offer and no refunds will be given.



[This message has been edited by dogcanyon (edited 09-21-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dogcanyon:
Here's a direct quote from the Terms and Conditions section on the Priceline web site:

Once hotel rooms are purchased through priceline.com, they cannot be cancelled or changed by priceline or the hotel that accepts your offer and no refunds will be given.
]</font>

I found this same text on the PL site as:

Can I change or cancel my hotel rooms?


Once hotel rooms are purchased through priceline.com, they cannot be cancelled or changed by priceline or the hotel that accepts your offer and no refunds will be given.

As a response to that question, the statement is clear that no, the purchaser cannot cancel the reservation, nor will PL or the contracting property cancel or change it directly. Someone with a slightly lawyerly use of the language could argue this either way, and if I were priceline, I'd more clearly state "Change or cancellation requests will not be accepted by Priceline nor the hotel that accepts your offer and no refunds will be given".

Again, I Am Not A Lawyer, although I do have enough hospitality law experience as a hotelier to be dangerous. I remain unconvinced that PL owes any user any remedy beyond refunding the consideration paid by the user in exchange for the room; in fact, here's a tidbit from the Terms and Conditions

For Washington Residents:

If lodging or other services are canceled by a participating hotel, all sums paid to such hotel for services not performed will be refunded to the User by priceline.com within thirty days of receipt of the funds from the hotel with whom the services were arranged, or if the funds were not sent to the hotel, the funds shall be returned within fourteen days after cancellation to the User unless the User requests the hotel or priceline.com to apply the money to another travel product and/or date.

Given that PL only pays after check-in or the time a room is guaranteed for, the latter would almost always apply. Granted, we're not all fortunate enough to be Washington residents, but I suspect this is pretty much in keeping with their business practices. I may be wrong.

Looking further, I don't see anything other than the standard boilerplate. I'm pretty much convinced that, so long as PL arranges with some party to provide the purchased service (a room of X stars in Y zone on Z date for M money), aint nobody got any cause of action against anyone. You rolls the dice and you takes your chances. If your plans are so perilously formed that having a hotel change on you is cause to fire up Johnnie Cochran and the Dream Team, I'd suggest booking direct with the property, securing the reservation with an American Express card for their specific guarantee protections and paying whatever price that security comes with. The entire PL business model is based on a tantalizing frisson of uncertainty, and while the appeal of saving a buck is certainly alluring, certain people just shouldn't run the risk of something being out of their control.

Eric

But isn't the point that is you are walked, the first night is FREE? The hotel that walked you refunds/doesn't charge you and pays the cost of the alternate hotel.

Here, it sound like PL is getting the freebie. I don't suppose PL is refunding your money?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by VibeGuy:
The entire PL business model is based on a tantalizing frisson of uncertainty, and while the appeal of saving a buck is certainly alluring, certain people just shouldn't run the risk of something being out of their control.

Eric</font>

The Terms and Conditions make it crystal clear that the "frisson of uncertainty" is supposed to end once the bid is accepted and both the customer and the hotel have agreed to a reservation that can't be cancelled or changed for any reason.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dogcanyon:
...crystal clear...</font>

I find Eric's explanation of how the T&C's can have an alternate interpretation to be extremely interesting. I do not think that it's 'crystal clear,' not by any means.

The alternative interpretation is that the T&C statement means that neither Priceline nor the hotel can change the reservation as a result of of a request that you (the customers) make. The case for making this interpretation is because the statement is in answer to the FAQ "Can I change or cancel my hotel rooms?," and the interpretation is made possible by using the passive voice.

Now I have even less knowledge of hotelier law than does VibeGuy, but I would guess that attorneys on either side of the issue could make a good and valid case. And, it's very possible that reasonable arbiters would come to different conclusions.

For individual PL customers, I contend that the legal issues are less important than the consumer issue: namely, (1)the likelihood of being walked would appear to be greater if you use Priceline than if you use conventional means, and (2)as rb.sr points out, you lose one of the quid pro quos (free room for 1st night) if you are walked.

The bottom line here is that Priceline is not within its rights to do this. If it happens to you, scream bloody murder and extract at least a free night if not multiple free nights. Threaten to contact the applicable consumer protection agency if they don't make a fair accommodation.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by rb.sr:
But isn't the point that is you are walked, the first night is FREE? The hotel that walked you refunds/doesn't charge you and pays the cost of the alternate hotel.

Here, it sound like PL is getting the freebie. I don't suppose PL is refunding your money?</font>


While most properties comp the alternate stay as a matter of policy, there are some that simply have agreements with the properties they are walking guests to accept the room rate. I have heard of properties that are markedly sleazier than this, in fact: let's say guest booked a rate at $150, property has an agreement for bulk rooms next door at $100 (from, say, a $200 rack) - Property A keeps the $150, pays Property B $100, guest is informed that they've been "upgraded".

Eric

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wideman:
The alternative interpretation is that the T&C statement means that neither Priceline nor the hotel can change the reservation as a result of of a request that you (the customers) make. The case for making this interpretation is because the statement is in answer to the FAQ "Can I change or cancel my hotel rooms?," and the interpretation is made possible by using the passive voice.
</font>

If they can stoop to that level to wiggle out of "Once hotel rooms are purchased through priceline.com, they cannot be cancelled or changed by priceline or the hotel that accepts your offer and no refunds will be given." and get away with it, why couldn't the customers just as easily play the same spin games with the language on the bid entry screen ("I have read, accept and agree to abide by ..." ) and get out of paying the charges when they are assigned hotels that they don't want or later when their travel plans change and they no longer need the reservation?



[This message has been edited by dogcanyon (edited 09-22-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dogcanyon:
If they can stoop to that level to wiggle out of "Once hotel rooms are purchased through priceline.com, they cannot be cancelled or changed by priceline or the hotel that accepts your offer and no refunds will be given." and get away with it, why couldn't the customers just as easily play the same spin games with the language on the bid entry screen ("I have read, accept and agree to abide by ..." ) and get out of paying the charges when they are assigned hotels that they don't want or later when their travel plans change and they no longer need the reservation?

[This message has been edited by dogcanyon (edited 09-22-2003).]</font>


Because PL has better lawyers?

Eric, Only Half-Jokingly

It was really intended as a rhetorical question, but I'm glad to see that finally we can agree on something.


[This message has been edited by dogcanyon (edited 09-22-2003).]

If you have a reservation, can't a hotel still walk you anyway, whether it is Priceline or not? I've read stories of that happening here, without Priceline involved.

I'd be happy to be walked if I got a better room in a better location, or if I got at least one free night and an equivalent room and location. Obviously much the same thing happens sometimes when people are voluntarily or involuntarily bumped on flights.

I don't see any sign that Priceline is moving people around *that* much. I suspect you still have odds in excess of 99% of actually getting the hotel you were awarded at the time of your bid.

Nevertheless, I am sure there are times that getting bumped or walked is extremely inconvenient and annoying. If avoiding the slight chance of that happening is worth it, definitely choose a method of booking that has an iron-clad guarantee - whatever that may be. But what methods of booking do have this guarantee?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by WillTravel:

Nevertheless, I am sure there are times that getting bumped or walked is extremely inconvenient and annoying. If avoiding the slight chance of that happening is worth it, definitely choose a method of booking that has an iron-clad guarantee - whatever that may be. But what methods of booking do have this guarantee?</font>

Any property that accepts room guarantees by American Express has agreed to a set of terms and conditions that prevent charegbacks for No-Shows on guaranteed reservations. This is their Assured Reservation policy, and it's been in effect for about 25 years as far as I can tell. In the event of an overbooking on a reservation secured by Amex, the following must be done by the property:

(this is taken from the merchant services section of their website that is applicable to hospitality and the copyright belongs to Karl Malden, a centurion with a funny hat and our friends at American Express Travel Related Services Company who obviously would never get cranky about this use by a Cardmember who is also an American Express merchant; your mileage may, in fact vary)

In Case of Overbooking

* Provide and pay for a room in a comparable lodging establishment nearby for the first night and furnish transportation to the new establishment.

* Pay for a three-minute call so that the guest can give notice of a change in accommodations.

* Forward all communications to the other lodging establishment.

* Document in your records that a no-show charge was made because of an overbooking and relocation to another lodging establishment. Include the name of the lodging establishment to which the guest is relocated.

* Process and submit a no-show charge to American Express as if the Cardmember has failed to cancel a guaranteed reservation (In order to receive payment, you must include the no-show descriptor, as described in the previous section).

(end of included content)

Note that under this, which so far as I am aware is the most stringent consumer protection available, the property is still allowed to charge the first night of a walk, even when the property is oversold. Caveat emptor.

Eric, Who Would Never Dream Of Leaving Home Without It, But Does Not Work For American Express TRS

Let's also be clear that being walked on the day of a reservation is different from being walked in advance.

If you're walked on the day of the reservation, it probably means that the hotel didn't get as many no-shows, cancellations, and/or check-outs as it expected to get.

If you're walked in advance, it probably means that the hotel has made a business decision to make more $$ by canceling your (guaranteed, in Priceline's case) reservation and taking someone else's.

It's the latter case that is in question, especially if Priceline is complicit is the affair.

There's a much broader lesson here -- representatives of companies often act as if their policies and procedures are all that matter. They aren't! You must be the one to assert your rights, which are governed by contract law, consumer protection laws and other standards of fair dealing.

You've got to raise a stink when you're in the right (as you are here with these involunatary walks). Otherwise, get used to being a pawn in the chess game of life.

Would someone please provide a link? I could not find this discussion on BFT. Thanks.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Analise:
Would someone please provide a link? I could not find this discussion on BFT.</font>

I would find it unseemly to provide a link. However, the 1st line in the 1st post in this topic mentions the "Member Announcements" forum of BFT, and (at this moment) about the 10th or 12th topic is titled "Involuntarily moved..."

Additionally, there seem to be other instances of this on BFT, with not much attention being paid. A very recent post in BFT's "Boston Suburbs" forum has another walked-in-advance story ("Sheraton Needham not honoring my PL res").

It seems clearer and clearer that walk-in-advance at Priceline customers' expense/detriment is by no means exceptional.

You know, I've heard of quite a few people having people with Priceline. I've personally never used them for these reasons, though there are still people that continue to use them. I prefer Orbitz, never had these types of problems and know next to no one that ever has.

I'm glad to see that the ball's finally started rolling on getting something done about it...good luck w/ fixing this mess priceline!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JCookery:
You know, I've heard of quite a few people having people with Priceline. I've personally never used them for these reasons, though there are still people that continue to use them. I prefer Orbitz, never had these types of problems and know next to no one that ever has.
</font>

I've used PL more than "frequently" - it would not be unreasonable to suggest that I'd be Elite if PL offerred a frequent-users club. I have had precisely one reservation or check-in flub in hundreds of room nights. People who have trouble with PL fit into one of the following categories:

1) People who don't do the research as to what comparable rooms/flights/cars are going for in the place they want to stay/go/drive, for the dates they want to do it.

2) People who do not use a good bidding strategy that attempts to minimize the information gap between the bidder and the seller. People think "free re-bids", for example, has something to do with waiting for their window to expire and bidding again. This is not true; in most major cities, at higher star levels, it's possible to bid five or six times in the span of five minutes without lowering the quality level or desired locations. Thus, people overpay constantly becuase they "gamble" (read: "are idiots").

3) People who don't carefully examine the maps provided by PL - just because PL uses a word like "Downtown" or "Financial District", it doesn't mean their definition of same is the commonly held one. Maps are frequently very revelatory as to what the possible properties in an area might be.

4) People who get caught up in the heat of bidding, especially for travel in the future; the correct way to bid for something more than a few weeks out is to book a cancellable reservation using a non-opaque site and then set a bidding limit and strategy for the opaque sites that takes changing inventory levels into consideration.

5) People who don't read the fine print; PL offers terms and conditions that are exceptionally restrictive; simply agreeing to them without reading them is akin to sticking your hand in the garbage disposal to fish out a fork; you may be fine, it may really hurt.

In summary, people who take some time can come out way, way, way ahead with PL, especially for lodging. (I would never use them for air travel - it's not worth the bother). Since most frequent guest programs are eliminating stay credit for any stay booked on any online property other than their own (see HHonors, *wood, etc), the money you're saving with Orbitz is nice, but not fantastic. I have checked into hotels simultaneously with people on OrbitzSaver rates, and I was paying less than half of what they were.

Eric

VibeGuy, very well said!!!

I only use Priceline occasionally for hotels, that is, when I can live with the restrictions and risks involved. The times that I HAVE used them, I have been, overall, extremely satisified! Never bothered with them for flights or car rentals -- doesn't seem like the "savings" on these are worth the risks and hassles.

Oh, and I have been walked -- a month in advance -- on a NON-Priceline hotel stay! Indeed it does happen! Now, whether Priceline is somehow skimming or scamming to make extra profits on these advance walks, I really don't know. If it were to happen to me, and I were REALLY unhappy with the substitution, I would certainly be taking action to get some kind of remedy.


Kathy

Excellent points, VibeGuy (and compliments on your writing style too) http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

If I could draw one inference from your points, it would be to say that there are times when Priceline is simply NOT the best way to go in booking rooms.

One of the things I see a lot is that bidders, having seen reports of low-price wins for specific zones/properties, will set their expectations on getting that same price for their own dates. Sometimes yes, but other times it just isn't going to happen.

A relatively small amount of time invested in checking easily-accessible online resources (for example, people preparing to bid in Las Vegas or Manhattan should always check the Convention calendars) can prevent frustration and disappointment, and get the best value for their money.

In 7 paragraphs, VibeGuy provides more useful information than do some sites' epical FAQs.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Non-NonRev:

If I could draw one inference from your points, it would be to say that there are times when Priceline is simply NOT the best way to go in booking rooms. </font>

Absolutely. There are times and places where special promos can beat PL overall for some users, and there's some markets where the PL rates for property X are higher than the non-opaque rates for property Y. That said, there are contractual obligations between properties and PL - the bulk rate PL pays is absolutely the lowest price that any member of the general public is staying at.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
One of the things I see a lot is that bidders, having seen reports of low-price wins for specific zones/properties, will set their expectations on getting that same price for their own dates. Sometimes yes, but other times it just isn't going to happen. </font>

Absolutely. The Venetian in Las Vegas is a classic example; everyone thinks they're gonna stay there for $79, come hell or high water.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
A relatively small amount of time invested in checking easily-accessible online resources (for example, people preparing to bid in Las Vegas or Manhattan should always check the Convention calendars) can prevent frustration and disappointment, and get the best value for their money. </font>

That's just it - just like at a real auction, uninformed bidders drive up prices, and if people compare their rate to the sign on the back of the hotel room door, they think they're getting a great deal. I am utterly convinced that I am paying as close as possible to the minimum cost + 7% bid almost every time I buy thanks to my bidding strategy, and I can support that with bid histories and research. If people are happy to save 20 or 30% off an easily-obtainable promo rate like Entertainment or AAA, that's great for them. I'm too darned cheap - I sleep better knowing that I shelled out the least cash to be there that night.

Eric
(edited to fix wonky UBB)

[This message has been edited by VibeGuy (edited 10-02-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wideman:
In 7 paragraphs, VibeGuy provides more useful information than do some sites' epical FAQs.</font>

You flatter me. If you want to see me at my most verbose, http://pub210.ezboard.com/fpricelineandexpediabiddinglasvegas.showMessage?to picID=1311.topic

contains my rant on Free Rebidding Explained, where, sufferring immense frustration at explaining the Free Re-Bid Process, I finally lost it.

Eric

Great post, VibeGuy. Despite everything I've written about challenging Priceline's rare involuntary walks, I believe that Priceline for hotels remains the best deal in travel, by far.

Great post Eric and the others have added info that makes this thread very valuable to novice PL bidders.

There's a new post today on BFT (Member Announcements) reporting a cancellation by PL with no rebooking. PL allegedly will just refund the money.

That's totally a breach of contract and sure to raise a big stink.


[This message has been edited by zbenye (edited 10-03-2003).]

Yes, I just read that thread -- effectively Priceline unilaterally cancelled this person's reservation and said 'We can't find anything else'.

Ugh, these are all real terrible developments for Priceline. I've already had second thoughts about using Priceline (as I posted in another thread) now the chances that I secure a good deal in a good zone, and Priceline just 'bumps' me with no compensation other than a refund?

If this pattern holds up, I'm taking Priceline off my list, completely. Which is too bad since I spent over $5000 with them in the past two years.

The BFT faithful must be very confused. At first, their Mistress threw up her hands and announced that Priceline was “not at fault.” She has now made an inexplicable 180-degree turn, telling her minions that Priceline is “allowing their hotel[s]” to cancel the reservations. Then she bares her teeth by threatening to squeal to the toothless Better Business Bureau.

(Or maybe the 180-degree turn isn’t so inexplicable. Might the lady in question be reading this thread?)

The obvious solution when you have a guaranteed, pre-paid res through Priceline and they walk you without providing equal or better accommodation is to find accommodation on your own, bill Priceline, and give them 30 days to pay you. If you don’t have their check by then, it’s time to visit small claims court.

Yes, I've noticed the squealing, too. I thought the bearing in my hard disk was failing at first...

I remain unconvinced that there is an epidemic of uncompensated walking - and the thread about the KC walk is coming very secondhand....so I'm a little wary. I do, on the other hand, think that this one in KC stinks on toast; if the hotel is legitimately overbooked, who gets walked should be a case of first-come, first-served, and I think the poster should show up at the property right at the posted check-in time, and make a Serious Scene until properly accomodated (either there, or elsewhere).

Eric

I, too, am unconvinced. Having a confirmed reservation summarily cancelled by the hotel without provision for alternative accommodations is unacceptable, but this particular incident is not necessarily a point against using priceline. Even with reservations booked directly through the hotel, one sometimes gets to the hotel only to be told, "We know you have a reservation but you aren't getting a room. There's nothing else available in town, either. Oh well, better luck next time." The real question is whether the risk of this happening is greater with a priceline reservation than a "normal" reservation, and so far I've seen no evidence either way.

Finally, just to try to inject another perspective here, is it possible the hotel and priceline staff thought they were doing a Good Thing by notifying "walk-ees" in advance instead of waiting until they showed up at the front desk? It really stinks to get a phone call 3 days before a trip and be told you won't be getting the room you paid for (or any room for that matter), but it beats having that happen when you've just finished lugging suitcases all over town and are ready to be handed the key to a hotel room.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wideman:
If you don’t have their check by then, it’s time to visit small claims court. </font>

I agree, but for most people the idea of missing a day of work in order to possibly collect $80 or $90 in small claims court is just not realistic and not worth the hassle and stress involved.

A really great discussion. If one sues:

(1) who do you sue (P/L, The hotel(s), BFT, etc)?,

(2) where do you sue at (where you made the bid from?, where the hotel(s) located, etc)?

(3) how much do you sue for (your bid, your final bill, all your extra expences etc?

As you can easily descern, I am not a lawyer.

MisterNice

I'm not a bar member, either, so take the following with adequate salt. I'd also agree that a small court action won't be in any way shape or form a windfall: the extra amount you'd pay is likely to be in the $50-150 range.

Who do you sue?
Priceline. They are the company that you paid, and they're the one whose T&Cs say that "neither Priceline nor the hotel can change the reservation." (If Priceline were to claim that it's the hotel who backed out of the deal, your winning argument is that Priceline can take that up separately with the hotel -- your deal was with Priceline, and Priceline didn't live up to it.)
Where do you sue?
Each state has its own rules for where you can file. In many (probably most) states, you can sue either in the location where you live or in the location where the company has its place of business.
How much do you sue for?
I would sue for the money you paid for the alternative lodging, minus whatever you paid to Priceline. If you new locale required additional transportation (for example, you'd booked a room downtown through Priceline but could only find alternative accommodation in the suburbs), then the cost of the transportation could be added.

If the room you booked is significantly better than the one Priceline got for you (for example, a suite instead of a standard room, or a room at the Four Seasons instead of one at Red Roof Inn), you would do well to document that you could not find comparable accommodations -- for example, print-outs of a few web sites showing unavailability for the dates you wanted.

Edited to fix UBB coding



[This message has been edited by wideman (edited 10-06-2003).]