Online Travel Booking and Bidding Agencies - An apology to Priceline board management

[Ed. note: I posted the following note on Mar 6. I have since come to learn that the
apology contained in this note is misplaced. For more info, please see the posts in this topic, including my follow-up post of Mar 23.

--Wideman, 3/23/02]


In the past, I have raised questions about or criticized the managers of the Priceline/Bidding for Travel board (especially, its moderator, Sheryl) for being less than candid about income that they might receive through Priceline. However, according to information that Sheryl has posted, I appear to have been in error, in which case I apologize and withdraw my questions.

Specifically, I wondered if Sheryl received any income from her board. If she did receive income, her appeals for participants' financial contributions (which I have made) would be an outrage, and legitimate questions could be raised about her bidding advice –- would that advice benefit the financial position of Sheryl, or that of the potential Priceline bidder?

However, Sheryl has stated unequivocally that she volunteers her time (http://pub4.ezboard.com/fpricelineandexpediabiddingpostingguidelines.showM essage?topicID=30.topic) to the Priceline board. If she volunteers her time, then she receives no income from the board, and my previous criticisms and questions were therefore without merit or basis.

I apologize to Sheryl and any others who may have taken umbrage at my comments.

Note: The ground rules of Sheryl's board preclude posting this message in that forum. Because my criticisms/questions were made in FlyerTalk, I'm posting this note here, for the benefit of both Sheryl and FlyerTalkers.

Edited to add forescript on 3/23

[This message has been edited by wideman (edited 03-23-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wideman:

In the past, I have raised questions about or criticized the managers of the Priceline/Bidding for Travel board (especially, its moderator, Sheryl) for being less than candid about income that they might receive through Priceline. However, according to information that Sheryl has posted, I appear to have been in error, in which case I apologize and withdraw my questions.

Specifically, I wondered if Sheryl received any income from her board. If she did receive income, her appeals for participants' financial contributions (which I have made) would be an outrage, and legitimate questions could be raised about her bidding advice –- would that advice benefit the financial position of Sheryl, or that of the potential Priceline bidder?

However, Sheryl has stated unequivocally that she volunteers her time (http://pub4.ezboard.com/fpricelineandexpediabiddingpostingguidelines.showM essage?topicID=30.topic) to the Priceline board. If she volunteers her time, then she receives no income from the board, and my previous criticisms and questions were therefore without merit or basis.

I apologize to Sheryl and any others who may have taken umbrage at my comments.

Note: The ground rules of Sheryl's board preclude posting this message in that forum. Because my criticisms/questions were made in FlyerTalk, I'm posting this note here, for the benefit of both Sheryl and FlyerTalkers.

[This message has been edited by wideman (edited 03-06-2002).]</font>

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IF

"...with the exception of membership in affiliate marketing programs managed by a third party..."

Are you sure? IF http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/confused.gif

Classy move, in any case! Thanks! http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

---

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/Forum39/HTML/000054.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/Forum39/HTML/000064.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/Forum39/HTML/000071.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/Forum39/HTML/000009.html

[This message has been edited by doc (edited 03-06-2002).]

Lets take Sheryl at her word, but then I ask

Who gets the income from the "affiliate marketing programs "? On the Priceline site it is pretty clear that they pay for "qualified" bids. So someone or something is getting that income. I would have assumed that the board is getting it (and have no issues with it) as it is good business. However full disclosure is deserved.

In fact I think all the travel sites offer this "affiliate marketing program" and might suggest to Randy that he post those here so he can make some money as well. Here of course we should post them all PCLN, TVLY, EXPE, and any others, then when we frequent these sites we can insure that we choose who gets paid for our business and know that it goes where we want it.

At risk of getting flamed by Sheryl, below is an email message I received:

I am writing a selected number of our long time members to let you know that BiddingForTravel.com is now my business and the limited commissions generated through our links and banners is my income. So if its not too much trouble, it would be greatly appreciated if you use our links or banners for your Priceline bidding.

Happy Bidding!

Sheryl

If you don't think it's a business, then you guys are KIDDING yourselves. Whether it's a true dot-com and losing money, that's a whole another story and not any of my business http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

No apologies from me, it is unexcusable to edit someone else's posts and pretend it's THEIR words.

I'll use biddingfortravel for my PL hotel rooms when they offer an incentive. Otherwise, I book with PL directly. Now if one only knew when the incentives would be in place.

OK, now I'm really confused. I certainly don't object to Sheryl running the PL board as a business, if that's what she's doing. The part that would be extremely troubling, though, is the deception.

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/starsmilie.gif If it is a business, Sheryl should not ask her customers for contributions, as she has done in the past and continues to do, while continuing to insist that this is a volunteer effort.

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/starsmilie.gif If Sheryl's income is dependent on the nature of her customers' bids, she ought to explain that. For example, suppose Sheryl receives income when a customer bids $50 for a hotel room but not if that customer bids $40. If Sheryl suggests that a customer bids $50 for a room, that could well be an excellent suggestion for the customer, or it could be a suggestion that supports Sheryl's business, or both.

Sheryl, there is nothing wrong with starting and operating a business -- indeed, it's an American tradition. And there's certainly nothing wrong with being paid for doing work: I spend my time during the day resolving software issues and wouldn't think of volunteering my time for it.

The PL would be a far more valuable resource to the traveling community if Sheryl and her co-administrators would lift the cloud of uncertainty from their efforts.

If your work on the PL board is a volunteer effort, please confirm that it is so. If it's a business, please stop pretending (and explicitly stating) that it isn't.

A commision paid = a salesperson hired.

You should not treat your stock broker as a financial advisor... same thing as you should not treat Sheryl as a travel advisor.

They are both salespeople.

Except your stock broker does not ask you to donate/contribute to maintain his money-making website.

[This message has been edited by MoreMiles (edited 03-13-2002).]

Unless I've totally misinterpreted postings and emails I've seen, Sheryl is definitely making money off of the Biddingfortravel.com (BFT) website. I agree though that this is not very clear in general. This is somewhat disappointing because I can remember back in the day Sheryl posting to rec.travel.air stating she received no compensation from Priceline and that is why she could be trusted. I'm sure at the time she was not lying about that, but I think it's unfortunate she gave up that position of not receiving compensation.

The problem with it is there are opportunities to save money that are now not allowed to be discussed on the BFT website, in particular Ebates. In the past Ebates offered a 1% rebate on Priceline bids, but by bidding through Ebates to get this rebate, BFT loses out on their commission. With only a 1% rebate I could buy that it is of marginal value though, and the savings achieved through using the BFT site far outweight 1%. However, Ebates is now offering 4% rebates on hotels and there is no longer bonus money available on the BFT website for hotels. I think the BFT website is doing a great service to its "customers" by not informing them of this, even if it does cost them commissions. While BFT is still an excellent tool, I think everyone needs to be aware that they are not unbiased.

Bidding for travel is an excellent resource. It is a website that anyone may freely and voluntarily register with. Even if people have problems with the way Sheryl runs her board, it is her board and she may do what she pleases. If anyone does not accept this, they are free to not use her board. I know that Sheryl does put a lot of time into it, and for her to get something back is not a problem. Her board has saved me 100s of $$ in the short time that I have known of it, and I plan to support it by placing all priceline bids through BFT.

Sheryl is an average woman with little computer knowledge. Why would someone set up a moneymaking site on a forum that charges so much for high traffic? She stated on her page that it costs $2000 per year to host that site on EZBOARD. She then askes for donation for she can keep that site up to make her profits.

With that much money, she can pay a web hosting service and set up her own forum software, for much less.

Do you see flyertalk asking for contribution? Flyertalk uses the similar forum software that is found on BFT... yet they are able to do this without begging for $$$ right on the first line of the homepage.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by johnep1:
I know that Sheryl does put a lot of time into it, and for her to get something back is not a problem. Her board has saved me 100s of $$ in the short time that I have known of it, and I plan to support it by placing all priceline bids through BFT.</font>

How do you know? You live with her?

Her board did nothing, she did nothing. It's the people who post there that gave you the tips on savings.

Flyertalk can easily do the same. They now have FlyerTalk Miles, FlyerTalk Travel, etc... all they need is a new group called, FlyerTalk Bidding.

Randy... are you listening? http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

I am now convinced, both by information in this topic and some offline correspondence, that Sheryl does, indeed, receive income from her board, and that Sheryl’s saying that she “volunteers” her time is a mistruth. My initial apology was, obviously, misplaced and should not have been offered.

The dilemma, as Beckles states it so well, is that the BFT board contains some very useful information. Certainly one could use the information from the BFT board and then place bids either directly through Priceline (http://www.priceline.com) or through Priceline U.K. (http://travel.priceline.co.uk/default.asp). When you use either of those links, no one receives a kickback.

I agree with MoreMiles and others that it’d be terrific if there were a useful alternative to Sheryl’s board. I don’t pretend to know the economics of it all, but I’d certainly support a FT-sponsored board that provides information and links similar to BFT.

I'm not trying to break the consensus here, but I feel that anyone who provides useful information on the Internet for free (and Sheryl does), deserves to be rewarded in some way. She does put a lot of effort into this board.

If we can reward her by going through her links - at no cost to ourselves (Priceline is the one paying, right ?) - then it's all for the better. The fact that she does not openly disclose that she receives compensation for this is not an issue as it is quite obvious.

The e-bates thing is a little more troubling to me, as she is intentionally hiding information that would be useful to members but well, it is her board after all.

You may not like her way of running the board or her attitude, but then you are allowed to just forget about the board, or - more cynically - use it and choose not to reward her.

But please, stop ranting.

Great, see what you guys did. I just tried to clear up some misconceptions here, and now I'm banned from BFT, obviously for what I said here (without even the courtesy of an email from the BFT management). Considering I can still read the board but not post my winning bids and such, I'm not sure how this could possibly improve BFT ... It's not like I wasn't willing to abide by their rules on their board, but apparently you have to abide by their rules everywhere to earn the privilege of membership.

arturo heer thet "mimbirshep hav ets privies".

------------------
Loving, Caring, Honest, Intelligent, Empathetic, Creative, and Giving.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Beckles:
Great, see what you guys did. I just tried to clear up some misconceptions here, and now I'm banned from BFT, obviously for what I said here (without even the courtesy of an email from the BFT management). &lt;snip&gt; ... It's not like I wasn't willing to abide by their rules on their board, but apparently you have to abide by their rules everywhere to earn the privilege of membership.</font>

Well, I'm awfully sorry for your trouble Beckles.. but I'm going on record to say that I am NOT relinquishing my Witch From Hell title.... I do, however, acknowledge the worthy competition http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif.

Tom, you're not serious are you?

As posted earlier, I will book thru PL directly rather than see Sheryl collecting on my purchases......unless she is offering bonus dollars on her site.

I'm happy for whatever success ($$$) she finds. It just will not be from my contributions. Why? Because I've watched this woman in action and I just plain do not like her.

Of course I'm serious ... I can no longer post and get a message that I'm banned when I try to.

Like I said though, it's really silly because what possible effect can banning me have? If the BFT management is so worried about what I am posting on other bulletin boards, banning me is really quite counter-productive since it's not likely to have any preventative effect towards that end, and most likely quite the opposite ...

Of course, since I can still read the board and know all of my own bids anyway ... it's not really punishment for me either, just punishment to the other board users since they will no longer have access to my winning bids (I've posted at least (conservatively) a dozen winning bids on the board), which is the heart of what BFT is all about.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by MoreMiles:
How do you know? You live with her?

</font>

That's a good one. You come up with that by yourself?

Actually, I have posted on BFT at all hours of the day and night. Usually Sheryl replies within minutes. Therefore, even though I do not live with her, I do know that she puts a great deal of time into her board.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by MoreMiles:

Her board did nothing, she did nothing. It's the people who post there that gave you the tips on savings.

</font>

Do you value flyertalk even though it's just a board that's doing nothing? I sure do. I appreciate the posts from people on this board, but those posts wouldn't be possible without the board itself. BFT does do a lot. It's a board that provides excellent information and has saved me money. I will continue to support it by bidding through the link provided by it. If Sheryl gains from that, so be it. She has created a board that I find useful.

[This message has been edited by johnep1 (edited 03-23-2002).]

Hedoman,
Thank you! For admitting that you don't like her. She is a class act *****. (I made that up) I think she expects everyone to know what she does, if not she gets pissed. She booted me off the board, and will not responde to me. I thought it was a great resource for last minute, and airport hotel stays.. Well I will use it for the info given by others, but I will go out of my way now to prevent her from making money. She needs to straighten up her attitude.

Ryan

------------------
Starwood Platinum, Alaska MVP, Harrahs/RIO Diamond Hilton Diamond UA PREMEX

If I knew that she had Priceline as a source of income,I wouldn't have "donated" to her forum. While I find her board helpful,it really has only limited information.I have booked a number of Priceline hotels that are not on her board. I,and many others, just don't want to deal with the attitude there. I appreciate the work that Sheryl has done. If she can make a business out of it,more power to her.But as a "business", its "customer service" really leaves a lot to be desired.

Seems that I have been banned as well. In the past, I've submitted information on winning and non-winning bids, provided help to people about hotels and destinations, and contributed financialy to the BFT board; I know of no instance where I've violated any rules. I shall try bravely to go on without the ability to post to BFT.

I suppose that if I were one of the assistant moderators on the BFT board, I might wonder whether the Board's Boss exhibits a bit too much bipolarity, but that's their issue and not mine.

wideman ~ I think the rule we violated is listed here (http://pub4.ezboard.com/fpricelineandexpediabiddingpostingguidelines.showM essage?topicID=30.topic)

In particular:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Respectful disagreement and criticism is always welcome on this board. Disrespect, name calling and/or anything that could be construed as abusive in any public forum will not be tolerated and will result in the immediate termination of posting privileges -- no exceptions.</font>

I guess our comments were considered disrespectful or abusive by the BFT management? I honestly do not think any reasonable person would agree with that. Some of the comments in this thread could certainly fall into that category, but not what you and I have posted wideman.

I think that despite what is claimed in the disclaimer on every page of BFT that the management of that site is purposely vauge about the compensation they receive from bids placed on their site, and I think all that we have asked is for them to clearly state what they get (and any claim that they don't get compensation from Priceline would certainly appear to be a bit of a mistruth ... kind of like me claiming I don't get compensation from my employer since the check comes from ADP and not my company.).

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">BiddingForTravel.com is an independent entity, not affiliated with Priceline.com or any other travel services company, with the exception of membership in affiliate marketing programs managed by a third party.</font>

Wideman and I made contributions to the BFT with the expectation that the posted rules would be enforced. As I mentioned, I don't think any reasonable person would agree that our comments could be considered:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Disrespect, name calling and/or anything that could be construed as abusive</font>

I would propose that by soliciting and accepting our contributions that the BFT has some obligation to apply its own rules fairly and not in a capricous manner, which appears to be the case since they have provided us no explanation of why we were banned.

Basically the rule is "Thou shalt not make any critical remark at all regardless of how friendly constructive it might be." Meanwhile you must submit yourself to the plenty of same, most likely. I'm probably banned for previous remarks here. I haven't bothered to try to post since then anyway, and I don't care. I'll keep my winning hotel bids and reviews to myself.

There is certainly some issue with the affiliate money being there, as it calls into question the impartiality of the info. The real problem may lie with the "donation" setup, though. If this is your for-profit business, then I'm not going to subsidize your decision to not work in a real job with a "donation". The lack of disclosure in this area suggests some degree of deception. I mean, I'm all for someone making a successful web site their job. That's great. Just don't pretend it isn't, and don't ask me to "donate" to it. I'll donate to sites I know are sideline entities for their publishers. With ad revenue down, some good sources of info could go offline without a few extra bucks. But if they've chosen to be a business, they can earn my *subscription* dollars by having good content, or they can go at it with ads and affiliate stuff. Either way, don't ask me to donate to keep your business afloat. If you can't make a go of it full time, you'd better face the reality and get a real job, and do the site part-time.


------------------
--Greg

Beckles, Thanks for posting that information about the ebates 4% rebate. I had not heard about that before, and like most others, just been bidding through Priceline.com directly due to the lack of bonus money. I will be using that link from now on. It'll only be a few bucks since Priceline hotels are still cheap, but for a McDonald's guy like me, that's a meal http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

Out of curiousity, has anybody actually tried to post the ebates deal on BiddingForTravel? It seems most of the audience here has been banned (or probably will be shortly http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif ) but I was curious what happened if such information was posted.

I guess following the letter of the rule, it would be off-topic or something or the other. All I know is that Sheryl's behavior reminds me of a particular Seinfeld episode.. you know the one... which is why I warn friends to 'read BFT, never post, lest you run into the ___ ____"

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by pitflyer:
Out of curiousity, has anybody actually tried to post the ebates deal on BiddingForTravel? It seems most of the audience here has been banned (or probably will be shortly http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif ) but I was curious what happened if such information was posted.

I guess following the letter of the rule, it would be off-topic or something or the other. All I know is that Sheryl's behavior reminds me of a particular Seinfeld episode.. you know the one... which is why I warn friends to 'read BFT, never post, lest you run into the ___ ____"</font>

I posted it myself under bonus money a week or two ago, which I felt was an appropriate topic for that category. The funny thing is that they have Ebates and Rebate as bad words for topic titles, so my title was something like "4% ****** from ***** for hotels" because it censored those two words, but in the title only. Within 30 minutes of posting Sheryl emailed me telling me the post was removed because it was detrimental to their revenue that they count on.

I understand that, but I explained to her pretty much what I said earlier, that I felt she was doing a disservice to the board's readers by keeping that information from them, and I moved on. Obviously I'm not allowed to share that information with others and still contribute information to the board (they've alredy gotten their financial contribution from me) ... their loss, not mine ...

Well, at least she was upfront about it to you, if not to everyone else. Personally I hope that puts to rest all the people who defended her actions as 'volunteer work' when it's obviously just a business, probably a poorly-run, money-losing one, but a business nonetheless.

To her credit, she created something. My guess is that she did not set out to start a business. Now she has this great money making machine that she accidentally founded and has not a clue on how to make it prosper.

Several months ago, I mentioned that Randy would be much better suited to operate a feed into PL.

I just bought microsoft frontpage because I want to learn how to build a website. I would be more than happy to add a few links that people here find valuable. I was already planning to have a flyertalk link, but will put in a priceline one if people would use it http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif. I also would like to include the priceline asia link. No commission is earned from this link, but it would be a good resource.

[This message has been edited by johnep1 (edited 03-28-2002).]

As helpful as BFT can be, there is one telling aspect of it that proves that Sheryl is not unbiased: Note the disdain she holds for Hotwire. If someone mentions Hotwire, she tells them that she is not hosting a Hotwire advisory board even though she knows Hotwire staff monitor her board.

The simple fact is that Hotwire can often get you as good or better a deal than Priceline, with less hassle. Given that there is a small Hotwire area on her board, this tells me that she acknowledges its significance, but wants to steer her participants towards Priceline, even if Priceline does not provide the best value.

Like most well intentioned salespeople, Sheryl deserves our thanks. But by neglecting to equally support Hotwire, she is omitting an important resource in helping travellers find good deals. One can only conclude that Hotwire didn't offer her a commission scheme as attractive as Priceline's. This doesn't help her participants; it only helps her.

Good point. That extends to the other bidding sites out there (there a few other small ones, I forget one that you have to bid at least $99 and it's not an immediate turnaround, and there's the particular airline ones, like Lufhtansa and Vanguard).

When the board was renamed 'Bidding For Travel' I initially thought the Priceline bias would go away at least some, but obviously (and it clearly states this now) BFT is for "Pricline Bidding Only". The existance of that hotwire section is perplexing, I guess.

I'm confused...I thought Priceline was a cult http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

Look at it this way, folks: nuthin's for free. Even FT itself is an integral part of Randy's business, feeding his pub. and maintaining his VFF guru status.

When I first started the VFF game, I used a travel agent. I still love her dearly. She truly understood my (at the time) hatred of USAir and would sneak me onto UA as much as possible. Soon though I decided that making my own arrangements was just easier and more efficient. Eventaully (over some beers) she admitted that she THOUGHT that reason I quit using her was because I realized that the tix she was buying for me were 'comission padded,' ie, not necessarily the cheapest available in order to pad the airline comission.

Well, as others have mentioned, once the comission motive enters the fray, that's just what happens. You think the used car salesman has your best interests in mind when you are haggling over undercoating?

It's just business. If you think there is a killing to be made, why don't you set up some competition?!?!? Perhaps your market differentiation could be customer service? It's a free market, baby!!!!

BTW, I have no particular dog in this fight. I respect Sheryl for what she has created. But I never have and never will use Priceline. I prefer to control my own destiny...even if that costs me a premium.

Speaking of which,

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by pitflyer:
Out of curiousity, has anybody actually tried to post the ebates deal on BiddingForTravel? It seems most of the audience here has been banned (or probably will be shortly http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif ) but I was curious what happened if such information was posted.
</font>

I mentioned ebate in my post which was later edited by Sheryl. I think that she edited the title to format it properly. But she did not edit out the 4% ebate part.

http://pub4.ezboard.com/fpricelineandexpediabiddingorlandowaltdisneyworld. showMessage?topicID=1687.topic

Incidentally, I had once posted there about Hotwire vs Priceline. There was a followup posted that my post would be removed in a few days, which I felt was surprising since what I had posted should have been germane to the audience of that board. I told the admin then that they could remove the post.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 04-01-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PG:
I mentioned ebate in my post which was later edited by Sheryl. I think that she edited the title to format it properly. But she did not edit out the 4% ebate part.

http://pub4.ezboard.com/fpricelineandexpediabiddingorlandowaltdisneywo rld.showMessage?topicID=1687.topic (http://pub4.ezboard.com/fpricelineandexpediabiddingorlandowaltdisneyworld. showMessage?topicID=1687.topic)</font>

try posting as a new topic in bonus money....


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PG:
Incidentally, I had once posted there about Hotwire vs Priceline. There was a followup posted that my post would be removed in a few days, which I felt was surprising since what I had posted should have been germane to the audience of that board. I told the admin then that they could remove the post.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 04-01-2002).]</font>

was she asking?

I wish everyone would post HERE what she is removing because I for one am interested in Hotwire also. Any help on any board is good to me. I will also start posting my winning bids here, any body else going to?

MoreMiles asked Randy in the Flyertalk Community board to create a 'Priceline bidding' section similar to the setup at Sheryl's (at least that was my reading of the request). I don't know if there was any resposne.

I'm not sure if posting bids here is germane, maybe that's a topic for further discussion. A few thoughts I have:

1) If you want bonus money for airlines but don't want to send Sheryl the comission, you can get the same amount (only $10 per ticket as of 4/1/02) through Smarterliving.com. Of course, then Smarterliving gets the comission, so that's up to you.

2) Use ebates.com for hotel bids, since there is no bonus money out there, AFAIK.

3) Hotwire and Priceline can have radically different inventories but that is not to say if you say a price that is cheaper than ordinary on hotwire, it's not worth a shot on Priceline. Personally with air tickets I've been 50/50 with Priceline winning half the time and Hotwire winning the rest. With hotel it's always Priceline, hotwire just can't compete there, IMHO.

4) Priceline recently launced a version of its site through Ebay, available at http://pages.ebay.com/travel ... After putting in a city pair and dates, it will usually give you a Minimum Bid, a Buy It Now price, or let you set your own price above the minimum bid. In my limited experience if I don't see a Buy It Now price on an itin, I don't think Priceline has inventory for that particular flight/date combo. The Minimum Bid is often of no value, but at least sometimes it seems to be a good place to start undercutting (ie I've seen often where minimum bids were just a bit more than the best price Priceline might take otherwise, especially on hotels). This is very sketchy IMHO and I'm sure there are examples counter to my experience, but I still suggest a brief look at what the Ebay/Priceline product shows for your route/hotel bid.

5) Priceline considers three things when trying to find 'duplicate bids'
a) the email address (I think)
b) the credit card number
c) the cookie they leave on your machine
So if you change all three you can rebid without fear. Of course that's for academic information only http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

Hey, thanks for that eBay tip pitflyer, first time I've heard about it. Interesting that it gives "Buy It Now" pricing. Not that that is likely a good way to go, but at that point it becomes the equivalent of Hotwire, essentially.

As for posting winning bids/bid processes here, I think it's fine. I doubt we'd see a huge amount of traffic and examples of it. It could all be stuffed into one or two ongoing threads, that sort of thing. There are a few people hanging around here who obviously would get some use from bid histories or take note of an especially good deal and make plans around it, but my impression of FlyerTalk overall is that it doesn't really match the target market of Priceline, etc. anyway.

------------------
--Greg

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by hedoman:
To her credit, she created something. My guess is that she did not set out to start a business. Now she has this great money making machine that she accidentally founded and has not a clue on how to make it prosper.

Several months ago, I mentioned that Randy would be much better suited to operate a feed into PL.
</font>

I really don't get all of you. Sheryl's board has saved me thousands of dollars. It contains very useful information. Who cares if she gets a small commission from priceline. I have seen no evidence that she encourages people to bid more than they need to in order that her commission is larger. In fact, she discourages overbidding and constantly tells people to wait until closer to the time of travel if they are not having success at a reasonable price.

Does she have strict rules? Sure she does, but she runs the board. I'd much rather have that than a free for all. If you people don't want to have the benefit of her board, then don't use it, but leave her alone already with your incessant criticism.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ac/elite:
Who cares if she gets a small commission from priceline. </font>

I think you're missing the point my friend.

I think most of us agree we don't care that BFT is making a commission. It's the disclosure of these commissions that is the issue. BFT has been obtuse at best in disclosing these commissions, and I think it would only be fair to the board's users that they disclose this clearly instead of the vague disclaimer they currently use.

Like I said previously, I find their claims that they have no financial affiliation with Priceline to be like me saying I have no financial affiliation with my employer because ADP pays me, not my employer.

In addition it's obvious that the actions of BFT management _are_ costing their visitors money; after all, Beckles attempted to post the ebates rebate, which could save everyone a few bucks, but that was removed for no reason other than to save Sheryl's revenue stream.

It may be a dollar or two, but it's still a bias and a pronounced one.

Hehe, I like that analogy, to payroll done by ADP. Good one.

I find it odd that people keep bringing up the "So what if she gets paid?" line. Because it isn't the getting paid by them that's a problem in and of itself. The fact that each click on BFT's "place a bid" link gains them something means they do not want to discuss the above-mentioned link on Ebates, for example, or even the useful eBay link above. Among other things, it means that while the board may have every intention of getting you a *good* deal, it may choose to overlook things that could give you a *better* deal if it's not in their own best interest. The site can thus no longer be considered an impartial help site.

The other issue is, where is the affiliate money going? If the site is a for-profit entity, does it have any business asking you for donations to defer its hosting costs? That's crap. Either it's a non-profit site worthy of donation, or it isn't. It's one thing to require users to pay for a service on a for-profit site, quite another to request a "donation" so that the site owner can line her pockets.

Edit: I understand the donations can only be used for EZBoard. My point still stands, though. That money is restricted to EZBoard, but the affiliate money is not. If there are donations enough to cover EZBoard, the affiliate link money is just gravy. If you're being asked to donate money, you deserve to know for certain whether or not the site is run for profit. And even at that, the chosen hosting is outrageously expensive for what is provided. Lots of things to answer for. I would advise you to ask these questions before donating.

------------------
--Greg



[This message has been edited by CrazyOne (edited 04-04-2002).]

Of course, Sheryl is always welcome to add her comments. Only wish I could see her face as she reads ours.

I still believe that BFT has outgrown its original intent and is now a nice business.
And yes, asking for donations at this point is outrageous. But how much she earns and how she earns it is her own business and not mine.

I just threw together a website and added a few priceline links. Right now, the only bonus money is for $10 off a plane ticket. Please check out www.dealboard.com. (http://www.dealboard.com.) It's very basic right now, but will improve quickly.

Beckles -

Would you care to disclose how much money you make? May I also remind you that generating revenue and making a profit are two different things.

Pitflyer -

Do you normally see AOL advertising MSN service or encourage its users to sign up with MSN instead, because it can save them a buck a month?

CrazyOne -

Have you subscribed to Randy's InsideFlyer magazine and therefore contributed to the substenance of this board? Do you know Randy's profit margins, if any? And before you tell me that at least you're getting something in return with that subscription, please look at all the bidding strategies, FAQs, hotel lists, rental car discount codes, and yes, even Hotwire information, that Sheryl and her site have published and make available on a daily basis.

===

I don't get why people here are so fascinated with Sheryl. Frankly, I find it very disturbing that over 80% of the postings on this FlyerTalk forum are dedicated to attack her and question her motives. Move on, people. Sheryl's just an ordinary woman who came up with a way of generating revenue for all the information and services she provides. If you don't want to use her services, you don't have to. Isn't that what capitalism is all about?

And before you question my motives and begin to attack me, I'm posting this as a member of flyertalk, as someone who has his own opinions and can think for himself, and be completely unbiased about forming those opinions... regardless of the fact that I'm also an administrator at BiddingForTravel.com

Come on, Arrzee: you're trying to refute an argument that no one here is trying to make. I don't recall a single post that said Sheryl shouldn't make money off BFT.

The problem, Arrzee, is Sheryl's candor. Sheryl claimed that she volunteered her time to BFT; it was only after the discussion here on FlyerTalk that Sheryl deleted her "volunteer" claim. Sheryl's appeals for contributions from her customers is absurd: someone else gave the perfect comparison of your dentist asking for contributions (over and above the fees s/he receives directly or indirectly from you) to help pay his/her rent. So when Sheryl pretends to be doing volunteer work and asks for contributions, that's quite a different thing than Sheryl trying to earn income and asking for contributions. If Sheryl should, say, sell her board, will she divide a portion of the proceeds among the contributors??

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Arrzee:
Have you subscribed to Randy's InsideFlyer magazine and therefore contributed to the substenance of this board? Do you know Randy's profit margins, if any? And before you tell me that at least you're getting something in return with that subscription, please look at all the bidding strategies, FAQs, hotel lists, rental car discount codes, and yes, even Hotwire information, that Sheryl and her site have published and make available on a daily basis.</font>

It's not a matter of getting something in return. We know that there is info that one gets in turn at BFT. It's a matter of calling it a "contribution" versus a subscription. It implies that you are helping keep a site afloat, not adding to its profit margin. I have been known to donate to sites that I know are high-traffic but non-profit sites, to defer the costs of running them. And I have been known to subscribe to sites that offer certain subscription-only services, if I find that they are worth it to me. What BFT is doing is deceiving people into making a "contribution" to a site that is for-profit. Do I need to quote the wording at the top of the home page to point this out? I'm sure you're familiar with it. To use your own style of analogies, would you make a contribution to Yahoo or CNN.com or CNET.com to defer their hosting costs?

Wideman has it right. There's nothing wrong with money being earned from a successful web venture, absolutely nothing! And no you don't have to tell us how much money you're making off it. But asking people to make a "contribution" is a blurring of the reality that is there only to deceive people. Make your money by charging a fee, or without a fee, or by having an optional fee service, not by deceiving people into just donating money to a profit-making site.


------------------
--Greg

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Arrzee:
Beckles -

Would you care to disclose how much money you make? May I also remind you that generating revenue and making a profit are two different things.</font>

Wow, have you read any of my messages? I just quickly reread them to make sure I didn't have a memory lapse, but I never implied there was profit.

As for how much I make, I think I see what you're trying to get at, but again, I have never asked how much BFT makes, just from what sources their revenues are coming from to be clearly stated (My primary source of income is Raftelis Financial Consulting (http://www.raftelis.com), what are BFT's primary sources of income?). As someone who was solicited for a contribution and gave fairly generously to support BFT (in relation to all other financial contributions from board users, which is a matter of public record on BFT, though admitedly not a vast sum of money), I really don't think that's asking too much, especially since it's also a matter of public record (through a search of newsgroup archives) that in the past Sheryl (note this is the first time I'm ever referring to a member of the BFT management specifically) had publicly stated that she did not receive any compensation for her support of Priceline, which appears to no longer be the case (regardless of how you argue that compensation is being generated, i.e., through Priceline or a third party affiliate program).

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ac/elite:
....Does she have strict rules? Sure she does, but she runs the board. I'd much rather have that than a free for all. If you people don't want to have the benefit of her board, then don't use it, but leave her alone already with your incessant criticism.</font>

I just wish she'd be upfront about the 'rules'; such as "This board is expensive to keep up so I need everyone to use my links and not post any other links". Instead we see posts by her that say, "Please email me if your post was removed." Why not just put what she would email in place of the removed post? Wouldn't that let others know not to bother if they have a similar post? That way these 'rules' would be a little more clear to everyone.

For me, after looking into the ebate site, I decided it wasn't worth my time to use it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Arrzee:
Beckles -

Would you care to disclose how much money you make? May I also remind you that generating revenue and making a profit are two different things.</font>

Beckles, have you been asking for donations? If you have, you had better be able to explain in detail WHY.....

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Arrzee:

Pitflyer -

Do you normally see AOL advertising MSN service or encourage its users to sign up with MSN instead, because it can save them a buck a month?</font>

AOL & MSN are SELLING a service. I don't think AOL has never presented its purpose as being the place to find the best prices for dial up service.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Arrzee:

CrazyOne -

Have you subscribed to Randy's InsideFlyer magazine and therefore contributed to the substenance of this board??</font>

Tell me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 'substenance' of this board the posts? Would Randy be selling banners if there were a board with no posts? I'm not in the web biz, but it seems like the more helpful posts you have, the more traffic you gen, the more you can sell your adds for. I don't know, is this site dependent on the magazine? Seems like a great marketing & loyalty tool for the mag; that is of some value. I would think there would be some beneficial posts/users that the magazine could use as well.


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Arrzee:
Do you know Randy's profit margins, if any? And before you tell me that at least you're getting something in return with that subscription, please look at all the bidding strategies, FAQs, hotel lists, rental car discount codes, and yes, even Hotwire information, that Sheryl and her site have published and make available on a daily basis.</font>

I could care less about the size of Randy's profit … http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif I'm sure it's adequate.

This board and BFT is nothing, absolutely nothing, without the users that deign to post the raw data. No raw data, no board.

Sheryl makes it available on a daily basis and gives her insight as having read most of the posts and those at other sites, and for that I think everyone agrees the site should be self-supporting and Sheryl should get any profit, and it's right she shares that with the administrators. It seems to be the opinion of some that it can be profitable without skirting around the fact that PL itself is the major source of revenue and therefore one should be aware that there may be some helpful facts out there that PL doesn't want known and so they will be removed/edited as needed. PL is indeed smart to support such a board, I for one would never have used PL if I had not read the board first.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Arrzee:
I don't get why people here are so fascinated with Sheryl. Frankly, I find it very disturbing that over 80% of the postings on this FlyerTalk forum are dedicated to attack her and question her motives.</font>

Obviously FT doesn't have a marketing agreement with BFT (through a third party of course) and doesn't feel obligated to remove opinions that BFT doesn't like.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Arrzee:
And before you question my motives and begin to attack me, I'm posting this as a member of flyertalk, as someone who has his own opinions and can think for himself, and be completely unbiased about forming those opinions... regardless of the fact that I'm also an administrator at BiddingForTravel.com</font>

Well, in my own opinion it is impossible for you to be 'unbiased' regarding this subject. I'm not a psychiatrist but your use of the word 'attack' above is showing a little emotion.

[This message has been edited by DAL (edited 04-07-2002).]

I think DAL said it best. I don't expect AOL to be impartial in any way, and I wouldn't come to them looking for advice on ISPs. However, it seems that 'informed bidding' implies a more impartial third party review of bidding. That obviously is not the case. BTW, I think this is a problem with a lot of bulletin boards, including to some extent Flyertalk, so don't think I'm just blaming BFT.

The bottom line is myself and many other folks here disagree with a certain management style along with certain business practices which seem to contradict the goal of getting the best possible deal for the end user.

Beckles has already shown that the actions of board management have negated the possibility of getting the best possible deal (ie net amount of least money spent for a given hotel). It's one thing to remove backdoors, cheats, etc, but it's a whole another thing to censor information just for the board's well-being vs its audience.

But hey, if you guys want to treat your audience like puppets, be my guest. The rest of us are here to spread the information your board will not propogate, so we can be informed users of biddingfortravel.

Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare!!!!!!! http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/tongue.gif

I just added a priceline asia link to my site, www.dealboard.com. (http://www.dealboard.com.) This site does not pay commission; however, the US site pays 1% commission. Please email me if there are any sites you would like added. I will try to improve the site daily, and eventually have all sorts of useful stuff, such as weather, movie times, etc....

Well, I guess the above discussion is now moot, as BFT is no longer with us.

Last night Sheryl posted a message on the board to the effect that as a result of fallout from Tuesday's Wall Street Journal article (referenced in a neighboring thread on this board,) Priceline was pulling its affiliation with BFT.

As of this morning, the board is down. If you log on,, you can see the logo, but that's about it. No posts. I have no idea whether this is a permanent situation, but I imagine it is.

(disclosure: I was formerly a volunteer -really!- moderator for BFT.)

Thank you people so much for being here today. I thought it was just me.....
Last week I heard about BFT and registered at the site, hoping to gain some valuable insights into Priceline bidding strategy. I read all the "required information for newbies" (even e-mailed the business owner Sheryl) and then posted my question online. I was not at all prepared for the chastising Sheryl directed at me publicly for apparently not asking my question in a manner that was acceptable to her. When I replied (very politely) that I was upset at her defensive posture and poor attitude, all traces of my two postings were quickly deleted. It was then that I realized that any post which is not flattering to Sheryl or her business would be deleted, leaving newcomers the distinct impression that this business is chock full of nothing but happy campers...I contacted several consumer agencies and Priceline itself, to make them aware of this situation...A truly good business should be receptive to client service without being demeaning. More importantly, honesty should be a hallmark of its representation. Thanks for listening.

The board seems to be working now. I don't see why it can't go forward without the affiliation (although Sheryl is being all or nothing about it and "stepping back"). And if the board doesn't continue with the help of the existing volunteer mods and such, there will be a hole there that another board could fill. It can run indefinitely, although if the EZBoard Gold fees aren't paid the site will have popups.

------------------
--Greg

Uhh, I think the board is still there, just minus Sheryl and minus board-sponsored bonus money links (though someone posted one in the Member Announcements area). Of course I would imagine the board itself is in jeopardy now, but it's not gone, yet.

As per my thoughts, here's my juvenile response: http://www.cyberbee.com/yesteryear/oz_37.wav

I agree, it can continue to some degree, if people are interested in participating as before.

However, as I posted earlier, I still can't access the site, neither via biddingfortravel.com, nor the older, "pricelineandexpediabidding" link. Cleared my cookies and everything.

Now she can learn another lesson in real life business. Just when you think all is well, something is there to turn your world upside down. Hang in there Sheryl, you too can learn the importance of customer service.

The BFT site has always provided useful information through those people who chose to (and were permitted to) participate. I would take no pleasure or joy if the board ceased to exist.

Helen F, I was just able to access the BFT board both through thhe link in this topic and through the old EZboard URL (http://pub109.ezboard.com/bpricelineandexpediabidding).

It looks like the link is there but there's no relevant content - just some old admin postings. But you can't even get to that from the biddingfortravel.com page.

Wideman, thanks for going to the trouble of posting that link. Whether I use that one, or another referenced in this thread, I get the same result described by pdhenry - the old graphics, plus some general admin info (ironically, this includes the disclaimer that BFT is not affiliated w/ PL.) But no list of the boards/topics, no links to access them.

In any case, I'll try later from another computer; in the meantime reading this discussion has been rather interesting. (Plus the absence of BFT has freed up some time to take a more in-depth look at FT than I had previously. Silver lining, and all that.)

Helen

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by pitflyer:

As per my thoughts, here's my juvenile response: http://www.cyberbee.com/yesteryear/oz_37.wav</font>

pitflyer,

Your response is indeed "juvenile", nonetheless, it's offensive and in very poor taste. On the other hand, I expected nothing less from you.

All,

The board is still active and accessible. If you seemed to be having problems getting to it this morning, it could've been a technical glitch.

Thanks for the compliment, Arzee. I expected no more from you, either.

Wow. A victim of her own success. How ironic and sad!

"You must turn off your AdSubtract software when using this website or you will not be able to see relevant links and images."
Not sure,but this could be part of your problem. I've had no problrm getting to the site.

Well, it looks as if the biddingfortravel business owner is still very much running things from behind the scenes. Click on "www.biddingfortravel.com", then "member announcements", then on topic #5 ("I thought you...") page 2, Sheryl's message, toward the bottom of the page. Due to what she described as my inflammatory comments (see for yourselves what I wrote), I am now officially threatened with post deletion and termination if I post ANYTHING FURTHER. Of course, by the time any of you read this, Sheryl may have a change of heart and delete ALL my posts ANYWAY along with her embarrassing verbal online temper tantrum.
Here is what I would have replied, if I would have been allowed to:
Excerpt from Sheryl's Posting Guidelines:
"Respectful disagreement and criticism is ALWAYS welcome on this board."

PS: The Wall Street Journal did a follow-up article on Priceline today. Can anyone provide a link or a synopsis? Thanks and have a great weekend all.

Amend above statement: delete "topic 5" to read "on or about topic #4" ("I thought you...")
Thanks guys!

Looks like I was right. Despite businessowner Sheryl's public proclamation that she would BAN my posts ONLY if I posted ANYTHING FURTHER on HER biddingfortravel web site, she went ahead and BANNED me anyway......I suspect these vicious tactics will continue to be her undoing.
Please, anyone, let me know if there is a Yahoo group or any other place where people gather to post their winning Priceline/Hotwire bids (maybe they can be organized by state?). I am very new to THIS site. Is this site a viable alternative?

Sorry (but not surprised) to read about your experience, Josie. When I saw Sheryl's post that she was "stepping back" from BFT I was VERY skeptical. Because on Usenet it is a common tactic for contriversial posters to say "I am leaving this board because...." and then low and behold usually within a week they are back, sometimes with a new SN but still back just the same.

Because of harsh treatment on Internet discussion boards, my skin has definatly been thickened. But at the same time I have met some wonderful people online and in a few cases have even gotten to know them off-line.

To answer your question about Priceline discussion boards. I have had good luck posting here and on rec.travel.air (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&group=rec.travel.air) Randy, the Flyertalk moderator seems really easygoing and has a reputation of fairness although I have never spoken to him personally.

rec.travel.air is unmoderated so some people may find some of the posts there offensive. Also you may want to use a "disposable" E-mail address for posting there, because the E-mail address you use there is available to anyone.

Please let us know where you travels take you :-)

-S

(edit to remove the word 'not' from P4, S2. What was I thinking.)

[This message has been edited by ASUGymn (edited 04-13-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Arrzee:
Your response is indeed "juvenile", nonetheless, it's offensive and in very poor taste.
</font>
I haven't had any experiences with BFT, but judging from what I've read here about her tactics, I actually found the link very funny http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif.

I would be more than happy to try to make a posting board for priceline bids. I could easily add it to the site that I'm trying to build now. I will need a few days to look into everything, see what software I need, etc.... If anyone has any suggestions or tips on where to begin, I would appreciate any help. I use frontpage, if that matters.

------------------
John
www.dealboard.com (http://www.dealboard.com)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by pitflyer:
Thanks for the compliment, Arzee. I expected no more from you, either. </font>

Having seen her garbage for a number of years on rec.travel.air, I have to say that I fully agree with pitflyer...

Nice to see there are other well meaning BFT "dissidents." The situation really is quite sad. I'm trying to use the "Praque spring" on that board to express my concerns (you can read them there if they haven't yet been deleted), but it looks like Sheryl's iron hand is about to descend.

Of course, that strongman in Venezuela was suddenly toppled today, so you never know! Meanwhile, I hope a reasonable alternative arises so that those of us who like both priceline AND freedom of speech can participate.

Yup, I notice my last BFT post (in which I very nicely thanked Sheryl for her contributions but suggested the board would now benefit if she resigned and turned over control to her moderators) has been deleted.

Zee iron hand is back. And I'm back to the priceline gulag until an alternative comes into being.

It's just a sad situation.

Yup, the "gestapo-leader" is back at "biddingfortravel"...Yesterday after reading criticism about her bizarre censorship practices, Sheryl stated online in the strongest possible terms, "I want it to be known that there is no new and improved BiddingForTravel.com..." By continuing to delete posts in her uniquely arbitrary manner, Sheryl is squelching legitimate comments and questions which are being raised about BFT website business practices. As BFT is her private board, she is able to control what is in print there. I sure hope a government consumer affairs agency checks out what is happening...
Yesterday in a follow-up article, the Wall Street Journal (page A17) confirmed that Priceline has ended its affiliation with Biddingfortravel.com. The article went on to state, "...Biddingfortravel.com plans to remain open, but Priceline's move was an economic blow to the site. Both Priceline and Biddingfortravel.com declined to comment."
The original WSJ article noted that some hotel companies weren't happy with Biddinfortravel and its relationship with Priceline. I think that might have played a part in Priceline's decision to sever it's ties with BFT. I also wonder if Ebay's new partnership with Priceline was a factor. Was there an "exclusive rights" agreement? To add to all that, the negativity generated by how the BFT site is being handled, was getting louder and louder. Could the struggling Priceline have noted the BFT cons were starting to outweight the pros?
At this point there are still more questions than answers...Let's keep the dialogue flowing, and also keep the concept of bidders helping bidders alive.
That's all she wrote. Josie http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

I personally have never had a problem with the no-nonsense approach that BFT took and certainly wish no ill-will on the site and certainly not anyone running it personally. My only concern was that they were preaching "informed Priceline bidding", but in fact with their censorship of a post on Ebates, who offers rebates on Priceline bids, were actually practicing "mostly informed Priceline bidding."

I won't be looking now (I'm on a slow dial up connection at a hotel), but I wonder how this will affect that issue? Now BFT should have no problem with Ebates, and in fact they should try and sign folks up for it since they could at least earn a one time commission through Ebates for each new member they sign up through that affiliate program.

I for one would have no problem "subscribing" to BFT if that's what it came to, and I have already demonstrated that in the past with my financial contribution to their cause which was relatively large compared to their other donors.

My guess is a slow death for BFT, which is sad. It's hard to get an accurate gauge of user sentiment because Sheryl deletes the posts she doesn't like (seemingly with regular frequency!), but my hunch is that the newbies like her (as they should, given the free help she offers), but her "style" antagonizes a good percentage of the frequent travellers she needs to post their bids.

All this is absurd, of course, because the frequent travellers I've heard from seem like a pretty fair and reasonable bunch -- and should be her best and most important allies. All we want is a place to exchange bid information and, occassionally, speak our minds about bidding strategies, alternatives, etc. No one gives a hoot whether Sheryl "profits" from this: indeed, most of us, as businessmen, WANT her to make money, so the site can exist (the idea that "donations" can support such a board belongs to the ether utopian school). But we don't want some tin pot "dictator" telling us every day what we can and cannot say on "her" site. If that's the game she wants to play, we'll take our bat and ball and go elsewhere.

I just wish somebody more low key, relaxed and rational had started BFT -- especially now that it seems like Priceline will at least tolerate (and might support) the existence of such a site. So much promise for a really useful site, just squandered.

You are right on target, iahphx.... All I wanted as a recent newbie to BFT was help with Priceline bidding strategy for hotels in Williamsburg....The concept of people sharing bidding strategy information in an organized fashion is a good one. I hope someone out there (hopefully with all their oars in the water) reading this will develop an alternative for us bargain-hunting types.
josie105@yahoo.com

Interestingly, there are no threads at BFT devoted to character assassination of a moderator of another board.

If you don't like it there, don't patronize it. Geez!

No need, Sheryl has posted her thoughts on how to run a ship shape board right here on FT and took this board's owner to task in the same paragraph. It was one of the more memorable posts written.

Why not just post your winning bids here in this forum?

-David

When/where did that post (about Peterson) run? I could use a laugh.

And anyone who thinks these posts are "too hard" on Sheryl doesn't knew what's gone on. I've actually tried to be very nice, because I recognize the enormous contributions she has made to the travelling public by starting the BFT board. She is just completely the wrong person to run such a board, and should step back.

Of course, those people almost never do. They are blinded to the reality of their own conduct. Perhaps only her moderators could explain it to her, but I doubt they will.

Posting winning bids on "FlyingTalk Travel" is a very good idea....especially if it originated as a separate topic and was organized by state. The beauty of an organized board on the subject is that no middle man is needed. On BFT, what people are mostly tapping into is what other posters are reporting, not "advice" on how to bid...

I don't think anyone that's as power-hungry as Sheryl can just step away for too long. That's the method behind the madness IMHO.

I don't see any character assassination here. I see people who want to discuss something they can't discuss on BFT and the management here has been gracious enough to let us discuss. Most comments here have been backed by experience, and outside of a juvenile comment here and there (which have been clearly marked for the humor-impaired) it's been enlightening that the club of 'rejected' BFTers may be getting as large as the few that remain!

The persona I use on FlyerTalk has been banned from BFT (for reasons that remain obscure; I believe that all of my posts on BFT have been both informative and within the board's rules), even though, like Beckles, I answered Sheryl's appeal for contributions with a cash donation to the board. However, my very-thinly-disguised alter ego (can you read my name backwards?) just posted some info in the Boston and Montreal hotel boards; I wonder if the posts will remain.

[This message has been edited by wideman (edited 04-15-2002).]

Ha! It really would be too much if they were removed.

My personal decision, and it is one not taken lightly, has been to NOT contribute to BFT while the current policies remain in effect. I know of no other way to voice my disappoval on how that board is run, and to advocate change.

It's a shame because I have about 40 successful priceline bids in the past year (at least some of which I could probably remember). If someone gets a real alternative up and running, I will make the effort to post them.

I just visited BFT for the first time since this mess started and was quite surprised to see the following posted:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Late this afternoon, I was notified that due to backlash from the Wall Street Journal article that appeared on April 9, 2002, BiddingForTravel.com will no longer be affiliated with the Priceline.com affiliate marketing program.</font>

Until just a week or two ago at the most the following dislaimer was posted at the bottom of the BFT site:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">BiddingForTravel.com is an independent entity, not affiliated with Priceline.com or any other travel services company, with the exception of membership in affiliate marketing programs managed by a third party.</font>

(The disclaimer is now a truncated version of that)

Wow ... in other words, BFT is now practically admitting their disclaimer was not an accurate representation of the truth.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wideman:
However, my very-thinly-disguised alter ego (can you read my name backwards?) just posted some info in the Boston and Montreal hotel boards; I wonder if the posts will remain.</font>

Wideman ... why bother? Like I stated previously, the decision by BFT to ban folks like us only hurts their users. We can still go on the board and look at all the information there, we just can not share our own information or make financial contributions to the Community Chest like we have in the past. We know what our own bids our (though not each others, but again, that's what I mean in that it just hurts the users of the board).

Banning people for what they say on another forum is just so silly I totally do not understand it. The only result it could possibly have that I can see is that it will result in more of the same behavior, not less of it ...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Beckles:
Wideman ... why bother? Like I stated previously, the decision by BFT to ban folks like us only hurts their users. We can still go on the board and look at all the information there, we just can not share our own information or make financial contributions to the Community Chest like we have in the past. We know what our own bids our (though not each others, but again, that's what I mean in that it just hurts the users of the board).

Banning people for what they say on another forum is just so silly I totally do not understand it. The only result it could possibly have that I can see is that it will result in more of the same behavior, not less of it ...</font>

I must be pretty darn persuasive, because with the same notice I got when I was banned (i.e., none), I am now allowed to post again on BFT.

I just hope they can find a business model that they can survive on ...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Beckles:
I must be pretty darn persuasive, because with the same notice I got when I was banned (i.e., none), I am now allowed to post again on BFT.

I just hope they can find a business model that they can survive on ...</font>

Perhaps it's because you are right and all of your posts in this thread have been fair and even handed. There are a lot of people posting to this thread with a chip on their shoulder who whined like a group of twelve-year-old schoolgirls. Your posts, on the otherhand, seem to be based on reason.

I agree with what you've said throughout this thread.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by iahphx:

Of course, those people almost never do. They are blinded to the reality of their own conduct. Perhaps only her moderators could explain it to her, but I doubt they will.[/B]</font>

Why can't Sheryl simply say "I apologize for not clearly stating my financial interest in this board"? Such a statement would go a long way towards re - establishing her credibility. But apparently such is not to be.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by josie105:
I sure hope a government consumer affairs agency checks out what is happening...</font>

Give me a break! You don't like the way she treats you so the government should get involved? This is getting ridiculous.

Reply to ac/elite: I'm amazed at your interpretation of my remarks, which I think are as clear as a bell......"Beckles" post on 4/15/02 @ 2:03pm offers just ONE example of what has been alleged about the BFT board. Yes,I would like to see it investigated. Not because of the business owner's personality or lack thereof, but because of consumer complaints about what is happening on the board, which in my opinion is a quagmire of "now you see it now you don't." Something just seems really wrong here.....

Reply to Josie105: I fully understood what your remarks meant. There was no problem with my interpretation of them. I still think that they are ridiculous. I guess we just have a different view of the extent to which government should be involved with what we say or do.

Josie
Your posts are inappropriate and ill considered. Here's a classic:

&gt;&gt;I felt she (Sheryl) was being overly sensitive...poof..there went both my posts&lt;&lt;

I have been around long enough to know that if Sheryl deleted your posts, its because you didn't read, understand, follow the FAQ, or had some other agenda. Simple. You don't just come into FT and BFT throwing your weight around demanding this and that. Engage brain before posting, pay your dues and get over yourself.

RDY3238
- You are what you post -

kudos to ac / elite

Just thought I'd check back in to see if everyone had finished their grape kool-aid yet.... http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/tongue.gif

Just checked to see if they're still having fun at BFT. I see things haven't changed much. They've "locked" the topic in which folks were questioning some of BFT's practices (after deleting mine, and no doubt other's, more critical posts), but you're still free to give Sheryl thanks for the great job she's doing in another topic!

BTW, if you want to discuss bidding on priceline Asia for that trip to Hong Kong, forgettaboutit. It's off topic, of course.

For those who might care about Asia hotels, I strongly recommend searching on google(something like "Hong Kong discount hotels" would work) for the consolidators, who usually offer better room prices than the hotels directly (although, infrequently, the hotels' own websites have better deals, so it's worth comparing those before you book). I would then see if priceline could beat these consolidator rates. Personally, I would require at least a 25% discount from the lowest "in-class" property, as there are obviously some advantages of choosing your own hotel.

BTW, the Asian consolidators are pretty good. I've gotten 5-star Hong Kong hotels, and 4-star Singapore hotels, for about 80 bucks in the past year, all taxes and surcharges included. Almost as good as dealing with priceline (with the advantage of picking your own property).

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by iahphx:
....
BTW, the Asian consolidators are pretty good. I've gotten 5-star Hong Kong hotels, and 4-star Singapore hotels, for about 80 bucks in the past year, all taxes and surcharges included. Almost as good as dealing with priceline (with the advantage of picking your own property).</font>

Do you earn points/miles with those consolidator hotel rates?

Kathy

I don't know if you can, Kathy. The hotels I've selected have generally been members of small Asian chains, so points weren't an issue. The US chains do participate, but a lot of the time your rates are "prepaid" (they give you an electronic voucher) so I could see you having a problem sometimes. If it's important to you, make sure you ask the consolidator before you buy.

BTW, when travelling to Asia I have sometimes bought my airline tickets from "ethnic" US consolidators who usually are cheaper than the airlines themselves (I find these folks to be less useful for hotels -- better to deal with the folks actually in the host countries). Since the ff miles ARE important to me, I've checked to make sure I did qualify for the miles. I've had no problems with getting proper credit.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by iahphx:
Just checked to see if they're still having fun at BFT. I see things haven't changed much. They've "locked" the topic in which folks were questioning some of BFT's practices (after deleting mine, and no doubt other's, more critical posts), but you're still free to give Sheryl thanks for the great job she's doing in another topic!
</font>

What's to understand? Obviously BFT is a bulletin board utopia, a perfect society, and there is no need for disagreement. HEIL! &lt;grin&gt;

Looks like Sheryl's figured out a way around her priceline "blacklisting" by being an affiliate of an affiliate! And she's got a link that will save you 5 bucks on hotels today.

Hey, works for me (but how will it sit with priceline?). I saved 10 bucks on a Seattle trip. But it doesn't change the fact that she has lost the support of a good percentage of the frequent flyer community with her posting policies. No support, no help from here.

If it's sunshine and happiness you seek, gaze at this guy for a while: http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif .

Meanwhile, I'll count the cold hard cash that Sheryl has put into my pocket. One hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by BBRebozo:

Meanwhile, I'll count the cold hard cash that Sheryl has put into my pocket. One hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred... </font>

She didn't. Priceline did.

It's like saying your stock broker makes you a millionaire when in fact, the profit comes from trading stocks themselves.

Some people just don't understand who should take the credit.

Yea, but there is no question that a site where customers post their winning bids, and exchange information about bonus money and such, is very useful.

It's just the attitude that's not.

I think that Sheryl's efforts in starting up her forum should be appreciated. I did and I ,like some here,also contributed money in consideration of these efforts. But the "style of management" actually causes her community to not be as good as it should.That said, I am still thankful for the site and wish her all the best.

Hey, with all things in life, you take the good with the bad.

I can only imagine how much time Sheryl and the moderators take each day to make the board presentable and easy to read. The information is quick to find, and very useful. To keep clutter control, and all of the off-topic posts away, is often a thankless job. But for all of you who have visited boards without moderation, you know what I mean.

Now, as to the idea of a disclaimer, I would have recommended one such as this:

"From time to time, there may be associations between the administrator and other entities, sometimes offering financial compensation. However, it will always be the intention of the administrator to provide a forum for unbiased information about successful winning bids, and bidding strategies."

Honestly, would any of you have visited less if such a statement was made? I think that such a statement would have cleared up a lot of the distrust.

JD

There seems to be notes under all Sheryl's posts now:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BiddingForTravel.com can only remain a free resource through the support of those who benefit from the information available. Please read my post CLICK HERE:

Amazing-Bargains.com Please place your Priceline bids through this link
Expedia--Check for Special Hotel Rates Here
Orbitz - The Travel Site with the Most Web-Only Rates on the Internet!
Entertainment - Now offering $10 on all Entertainment Books!

Many things have changed on that board. And posting the $5 off hotlink has also been heavied by PL it seems. Sad. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/frown.gif

Still a great site though, as one would never get Grand Hyatt Seattle for $40 otherwise etc, as many FT'ers booked for SeaDoo4. Darn hard to get MORE rooms at that price though! Timing is everything. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/biggrin.gif


http://pub109.ezboard.com/fpricelineandexpediabiddingseattle.showMessage?top icID=492.topic

Almost like watching Christian television programs. Every four minutes, they're asking for more money.

I cannot believe that some BFT participants have taken to apologizing when they are scolded by Sheryl.

Get it straight, people: if you participate on BFT, you are a customer -- the people who run the place are earning money off of your participation. Nothing at all wrong with that, but you as a customer have every right to expect a certain level of respect and tolerance from those who run the business. There's certainly no reason to treat BFT management as if they were dominatrixes (unless, I suppose, you prefer it).

It's really a lot like a rather enjoyable old Seinfeld episode.

You just have to decide how yummy that Mulligatawny is. If it tastes good enough...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wideman:
I cannot believe that some BFT participants have taken to apologizing when they are scolded by Sheryl.

Get it straight, people: if you participate on BFT, you are a customer -- the people who run the place are earning money off of your participation. Nothing at all wrong with that, but you as a customer have every right to expect a certain level of respect and tolerance from those who run the business. There's certainly no reason to treat BFT management as if they were dominatrixes (unless, I suppose, you prefer it).</font>

I believe the exact word you so kindly omitted is masochist..

MisterNice

A couple things about the closure of this thread. Sheryl is a member of FlyerTalk and had through time been value for some of the information and assistance she's brought this way. While I fully understand you might have reason to discuss her efforts elsewhere - I just don't think it's proper to be fodder here on FlyerTalk. If you want to exchange tips on where information is and the qualifty of the information, well that is always of value to other members, but let this one go. I have no personal experience of her Web site so can't add anything here and since it started with I believe an apology, I'd say we'll let it go at that.

I'm interested in one thing and one thing only - that each member take and give quality information on FlyerTalk which can assist others in their travel decisions. Thanks for understanding and I'm sure beyond this thread you'll still find value from her advice.

You guys are rediculous, who gives a rats bottom whether someone makes money on their site or not or is paid.... Biddingfortravel is the best site in the world in helping you bid for a hotel. I save thousands of dollars a year in hotels because of the site and religiously go to the site first before doing any bidding. Let me give you an example, I am going to Palm Desert for Easter break for 4 nights at $125 each night at Hyatt Grand Champions, I paid not one dollar more than I had to and saved about $200 a night. She deserves whatever she gets for the site and let's face it creating a site, managing it and paying for it is not free but it's free for me to use it.

You guys are rediculous, who gives a rats bottom whether someone makes money on their site or not or is paid....

Welcome to FT.

I think that, if you read many of the other threads dealing with BFT -- and not just this single thread that is nearly five years old -- you'll find that the issue isn't that money is made off of the site. And I really don't think you'll find that people don't think that the content isn't otherwise valuable.

The common complaint I've always seen (and that is just as a neutral observer -- I don't typically use PL and have never registered at BFT) is that people don't like the way that the site is managed. They don't like the fact that they can get banned if the wind is blowing the wrong way that day, or if they don't follow directions to the exact letter.

Maybe I'm off in my analysis (and someone who has more direct experience can correct me), but that's the way I've seen it from what I've read here.

Mike

rediculous

http://www.rediculous.co.uk/ ;)

http://www.rediculous.co.uk/ ;)

I love to start my day with a laff. :D

You guys are rediculous, who gives a rats bottom whether someone makes money on their site or not or is paid.... Biddingfortravel is the best site in the world in helping you bid for a hotel. I save thousands of dollars a year in hotels because of the site and religiously go to the site first before doing any bidding. Let me give you an example, I am going to Palm Desert for Easter break for 4 nights at $125 each night at Hyatt Grand Champions, I paid not one dollar more than I had to and saved about $200 a night. She deserves whatever she gets for the site and let's face it creating a site, managing it and paying for it is not free but it's free for me to use it.

Calliandra - you didn't mention if you post on that site, do you?

I've been using that site for maybe 6-8 years, don't really know exactly. But I found FlyerTalk because I was posting my winning bids and hotel reviews, but I wrote something (can't remember what 4/5 yrs later) that she didn't like so she just deleated it. Her right to do so, I just think she should have disclosed to us loyal posters up front, "If I don't like what you post I'll change your words or delete the post - if you try to re-post or complain, I'll block your ISP from the site"

So in my confusion I found FlyerTalk and found I wasn't an isolated case. I use her site to this day, I just haven't posted for years, which as I mentioned before in this thread, posts are her 'product'. I also use betterbidding.com because they're not biased against Hotwire info.

There's no reason to reopen this 5 year old thread,so I'm closing it.