America West FlightFund (Discontinued Program) - Silver Elite on AWA vs CO and NW

View Full Version : Silver Elite on AWA vs CO and NW

asnovici

Nov 25, 02, 12:58 am

I need your advise, fellow FTers!
I am based in PHX, and usually fly around 30000 a year (which makes me a lowly Silver) domestically, mostly to DTW, ORD, JFK from PHX. My upgrade rate on NW metal being a CO Silver is about 70% (which is pretty good all things considered). Here is my question, do you think my upgrade chances as a Silver will improve when flying on HP? I know many HP planes have either 8 or at most 12 FC seats, vs 12 to 16 to 24 on NW or CO. Yet, there are not so many Elites on HP, so maybe my chances will be better. What do you think?

iahphx

Nov 25, 02, 8:29 am

That 70% rate is remarkable, asnovici. As a CO platinum, I don't have that rate on either CO or NW!

I would submit that even if you got upgraded less (and I don't know if you would), you'd STILL be better off because you would be enjoying all those nonstop flights from PHX than NW doesn't offer. In your situation, for your own sanity, I think you have to go with the hometown carrier -- especially when the benefits seem at least as good.

asnovici

Nov 25, 02, 10:14 am

Thanks, iahphx!
I do agree...the non-stops are nice, although from what I have been noticing AWA pricing to DTW, ORD and JFK is often more expensive than that of NW (CO is usally comparable to HP). Since price is usually a deciding factor for me (provided the choices are from the airlines I have upgrade opportunities on), I will keep checking to see if HP will start matching NW fares more closely, and then will switch. Oh yeah...and I do like the fact HP still has the movies http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Western Airlines

Nov 25, 02, 11:26 am

My phellow Phoenix phlyer,

As a NW gold, I am in the same boat as you regarding choice for next year's primary FF program. Here are a few other things you might want to consider:

1. Choice of award destinations. HP can get you to Europe on BA, and the FC awards are cheap, but NW can get you there in WBC even cheaper, in terms of miles (80k). You can even fly NW on HP award miles, but it'll cost you more (100k). However, the most glaring omission in HP's award structure is Australia / New Zealand / South Pacific. You can't get there with HP miles.

2. Advance purchase fares. NW typically smokes everyone else.

3. Mileage earning opportunities. By having to go through DTW, MSP, or MEM from here, you'll be earning more miles on NW than HP to the same destination towards requalification. With creative routing, you can really add them up, e.g. I got 7189 on NW PHX-SAT by going via EWR for $193 total.

4. Bonuses. In spite of what I'm reading on the HP board, NW is the king of bonuses. My 50,600 status miles on NW this year brought my account total to 165k total. Can't do that on HP.

5. Domestic awards. HP is 5k cheaper than NW.

6. FC cabins, as you point out, are bigger on NW. That F cabin on a 733 on HP is almost pathetic. My upgrade percentage on NW is very high.

7. Service. I find NW to be good. It's not CX, but it's good.

8. Another program to look at is AS, they have beaucoup partners. With QF, you can get to Oz / NZ easily.

9. NW is one of the oldest airlines in the world, and they are in a financially sound position. They're going to be around long enough to use some of those awards.

Tough decision, that I know. I'm tending toward staying with NW for the above reasons. A big one is that I can count on cheap fares if I wait for a sale.

Granted, to get to Oz on NW, I have to go through KUL, but that could be fun too, right?

asnovici

Nov 25, 02, 11:33 am

Originally posted by Western Airlines:
My phellow Phoenix phlyer,

As a NW gold, I am in the same boat as you regarding choice for next year's primary FF program. Here are a few other things you might want to consider:

1. Choice of award destinations. HP can get you to Europe on BA, and the FC awards are cheap, but NW can get you there in WBC even cheaper, in terms of miles (80k). You can even fly NW on HP award miles, but it'll cost you more (100k). However, the most glaring omission in HP's award structure is Australia / New Zealand / South Pacific. You can't get there with HP miles.

2. Advance purchase fares. NW typically smokes everyone else.

3. Mileage earning opportunities. By having to go through DTW, MSP, or MEM from here, you'll be earning more miles on NW than HP to the same destination towards requalification. With creative routing, you can really add them up, e.g. I got 7189 on NW PHX-SAT by going via EWR for $193 total.

4. Bonuses. In spite of what I'm reading on the HP board, NW is the king of bonuses. My 50,600 status miles on NW this year brought my account total to 165k total. Can't do that on HP.

5. Domestic awards. HP is 5k cheaper than NW.

6. FC cabins, as you point out, are bigger on NW. That F cabin on a 733 on HP is almost pathetic. My upgrade percentage on NW is very high.

7. Service. I find NW to be good. It's not CX, but it's good.

8. Another program to look at is AS, they have beaucoup partners. With QF, you can get to Oz / NZ easily.

9. NW is one of the oldest airlines in the world, and they are in a financially sound position. They're going to be around long enough to use some of those awards.

Tough decision, that I know. I'm tending toward staying with NW for the above reasons. A big one is that I can count on cheap fares if I wait for a sale.

Granted, to get to Oz on NW, I have to go through KUL, but that could be fun too, right?

Oh, so true, so true!
I do not fly to Australia or NZ, although I do fly to Europe once or twice a year (not next year though, I think).
I did consider the fact that HP is going to be a direct flight option vs NW or CO, and as you rightfully point out, the great thing is that one can get more mileage that way (and this is important to me).
I cant even tell you how horrible HP 737-200 and -300 FC cabins are....sadness and dispare prevail there. However, their 319's and most of 320's have decent FC accomodations.
I think I will stick with NW and CO (as i have 60000 miles with OP anyway, I might as well continue racking up those miles and get to Europe for free in 2004), and then maybe switch to HP if their product will not diminish (and hopefully will improve).
KUL is awesome...I generally love most Asian carriers with a notable exception of KAL and Garuda Indonesian)
Thank you for your help!

[This message has been edited by asnovici (edited 11-25-2002).]

cab747

Nov 25, 02, 11:37 am

Originally posted by Western Airlines:
As a NW gold, I am in the same boat as you regarding choice for next year's primary FF program. 

Oh come on now, you can't leave NW, esp. for HP!!!!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I fly them out tomorrow night on the DTW redeye (FC of course) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

ByrdluvsAWACO

Nov 25, 02, 6:37 pm

Bonuses. In spite of what I'm reading on the HP board, NW is the king of bonuses. My 50,600 status miles on NW this year brought my account total to 165k total. Can't do that on HP.


Bull! I've earned about 75k doing hops over to RDU and Miami. That equates to about 240750 miles, and I probably did it cheaper than NW without having to fly to DTW(and risk snow delays). Most of the tickets were around $230. The best NW price I could get was $280.

Another thing to consider is not having to worry about not getting upgrades because you didn't buy the "right" fare class.


Mileage earning opportunities. By having to go through DTW, MSP, or MEM from here, you'll be earning more miles on NW than HP to the same destination towards requalification.


That's a creative way of looking at having to go out of your way. Yes having to go to DTW/MSP and adding 3+ hours to my itinerary is such an advantage.

Of all the hub systems, I think NW has the worst. Putting your hub in a city that gets nasty winter weather was not a brilliant idea.

------------------
God Bless America West and British Airways

HP - Platinum/800k miles
BA - Dirt/Soon to be Silver
UA - Dirt/19k miles
AA - Dirt/Only using to get BA Tier points/miles.

[This message has been edited by ByrdluvsAWACO (edited 11-25-2002).]

cab747

Nov 25, 02, 7:44 pm

Originally posted by ByrdluvsAWACO:
Bull.....



No way! I did NW PHX to SAT via MSP, EWR, and MEM. On the return, went SAT to PHX via MEM, CMH, and DTW. Go find me a run like that on HP that costs only $193 RT and nets 7,189 status miles.

HPs CMH hub is a joke and a half. There are more US Airways RJs there than HP planes, so you can't double connect like that (or triple connect) unless via LAS and PHX. And between those hubs you are staying in the west (probably costing a decent amount of money) and not getting as many miles. This is bad for mileage runs if necessary to requalify for elite.

Sorry, HP loses on this one big time.

[This message has been edited by cab747 (edited 11-25-2002).]

iahphx

Nov 25, 02, 8:10 pm

No question that if earning miles is a higher priority than convenience, going with an airline where you'll have to make connections will build mileage.

But isn't convenience worth something? I like to earn my miles for nice awards, I like to pay reasonable fares, and I like to fly first class, but I really like to get where I'm going quickly, too!

For most PHX-based folks, I think AWA offers the right "package." But everyone has different priorities, I suppose.

TransWorldOne

Nov 26, 02, 2:16 am

ByrdluvsAWACO:

1) Northwest's MSP hub is very efficient-- even in winter.

2) Northwest has a warm weather hub in MEM.

3) All Northwest fares are eligible for Elite upgrades, including coach award tickets, within the 49 states, Canada, Mexico, Caribbean, etc.

4) Northwest has had some great bonuses over the last year (MEM double miles, Fly Free Faster, etc.)

ByrdluvsAWACO

Nov 26, 02, 7:23 pm

No way! I did NW PHX to SAT via MSP, EWR, and MEM. On the return, went SAT to PHX via MEM, CMH, and DTW. Go find me a run like that on HP that costs only $193 RT and nets 7,189 status miles.


One could do a PHX->LAS->DFW->CMH->PHL. I suspect the cost will be higher, but that's because HP doesn't fly RJ's everywhere.

------------------
God Bless America West and British Airways

HP - Platinum/800k miles
BA - Dirt/Soon to be Silver
UA - Dirt/19k miles
AA - Dirt/Only using to get BA Tier points/miles.

TransWorldOne

Nov 26, 02, 7:41 pm

Originally posted by ByrdluvsAWACO:
One could do a PHX->LAS->DFW->CMH->PHL. I suspect the cost will be higher, but that's because HP doesn't fly RJ's everywhere.


You are correct, PHX-LAS-DFW is on mainline jets, while DFW-CMH-PHL is on regional jets. What's your point?

ByrdluvsAWACO

Nov 26, 02, 8:09 pm

What's your point?


More of a half-point. That it could be done.

------------------
God Bless America West and British Airways

HP - Platinum/800k miles
BA - Dirt/Soon to be Silver
UA - Dirt/19k miles
AA - Dirt/Only using to get BA Tier points/miles.

cab747

Nov 27, 02, 7:41 pm

Originally posted by ByrdluvsAWACO:
One could do a PHX->LAS->DFW->CMH->PHL. I suspect the cost will be higher, but that's because HP doesn't fly RJ's everywhere.



Of the eight segmented trip I did on NW, one flight was on an RJ (MEM-CMH). One was on an RJ-85, which is more comfortable than an RJ, and has first class.

Secondly, 95% of the HP flights out of CMH are RJs operated by Mesa. Next time you are there, go look at the departures/arrivals TV monitor, and you will note all flights are 5000 or 6000 series flight numbers, indicating RJs!

Secondly, the RJs are flying are competing on mainline routes now as well, such as PHX to LAX/SNA/SAN, as I have done it before to each of those cities.

FlyBDL

Dec 1, 02, 8:16 pm

Check out my topic in the Trip reports forum. I was a not a real big America West fan until my last trip. I am also a Northwest Silver, and I wish CO was still a HP partner or else I would move my business over to HP in a second. I still need to think about putting all my travel plans to just HP, or staying with CO/NW.

Eric

motnot

Dec 2, 02, 1:43 pm

Here's the link:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum81/HTML/003269.html

dirtboy

Jan 15, 03, 3:33 pm

... a dilemma along this same thread
(This is my first real FT post)

I only fly about 30K miles a year, a combination of coast to coast and along the west coast. So, when I begin trip planning each year, I have to decide on which airline to earn my lowly silver status. For the last few years, I lived on the east coast and been NW silver. I recently moved to the SFO area. Thanks to the BA $20, I have already earned silver on HP for 2003, and am planning about 25K worth of trips this year. Should I stay with NW and retain NW silver and HP silver, or should I abandon NW, switch to HP and pick up HP gold?

Thanks.

ByrdluvsAWACO

Jan 15, 03, 5:53 pm

You probably should have put those miles into a BAEC account instead. You can earn BA miles and/or Tier points on AA.

NW(even using CO) doesn't have a West coast network worth mentioning so if the majority of your travel is within the west I wouldn't consider them.

HP doesn't have intra-CA routes either, but you can do it via LAS or PHX. If time is important, then you'll have to look at other options like AA, UA, or WN(*shudder*) for non-stop routing.

Also where will you be spending those miles? Europe or the Pacific?

NW is now partnered with JAL for more choices to the Pacific, but Im not impressed with their WBC product.

For European travel I would choose BA FC over NW WBC anyday(20k difference or not). So the HP miles would come in handy in that case.

Your choice really depends on where and how frequent you travel.

------------------
God Bless America West and British Airways

HP - Platinum/970k miles
BA - Dirt/5k Soon to be Gold
NW - Dirt/10k Only using for emergency flights
UA - Dirt/19k miles
AA - 60k/Only using to get BA Tier points/miles.

dirtboy

Jan 15, 03, 7:03 pm

Originally posted by ByrdluvsAWACO:
You probably should have put those miles into a BAEC account instead. You can earn BA miles and/or Tier points on AA.

True. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redface.gif Except that I'm not planning on using many (if any) of these miles for transatlantic travel. And what if I took a transatlantic on AA metal? And BAEC status doesn't seem very helpful on US domestic flights. And the 10K HP bonus sure was nice.


NW(even using CO) doesn't have a West coast network worth mentioning so if the majority of your travel is within the west I wouldn't consider them.


Not on NW metal, but I've been pretty satisfed with AS... on the other hand the indirect routing on HP means more miles. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif


If time is important, then you'll have to look at other options like AA, UA, or WN(*shudder*) for non-stop routing.


Why does WN evoke a shudder?


Also where will you be spending those miles? Europe or the Pacific?


Actually, I tend to use miles for last minute domestic flights.


NW is now partnered with JAL for more choices to the Pacific, but Im not impressed with their WBC product.


Neither am I. I don't think I'd pay miles for WBC. Or BA NCW, for that matter.


Your choice really depends on where and how frequent you travel.


Thanks for your thoughtful analysis. The general question I'm going for is, for a person who only flies when necessary, is it better to have one gold or two silvers? Is a silver even useful on HP, or should I just as soon have dirt? Can 'lower' elites upgrade regularly on HP? How hard is it to redeem miles on HP and BA? Do HP FF'ers always wind up paying premium award travel prices?

Thanks.

Ord26

Jan 15, 03, 8:30 pm

I've been a lowly Silver since 1998 and I've ridden in the back 6 times.Two of those times were because I accepted a voluntary bump and the flight I was placed on had no space in F. You can do ok on HP as a Silver.

smantl01

Jan 16, 03, 12:22 am

Originally posted by dirtboy:
Is a silver even useful on HP, or should I just as soon have dirt? Can 'lower' elites upgrade regularly on HP? 

I was a HP Silver last year, and had a pretty high upgrade success ratio. Of course, AS is my personal favorite since I'm based out of SEA...and AS allows their MVP/Gold members to upgrade at no charge AT TIME OF BOOKING. I just LOVE AS!!!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

------------------
-Steve

ByrdluvsAWACO

Jan 16, 03, 2:55 am

dirtboy,

My answers were kinda general since I didn't spefically know what kind of travel you do.


Why does WN evoke a shudder?


Cattle-calling with mannerless people, no FC, no intl partners, no elite levels.


is it better to have one gold or two silvers?


As someone who doesn't fly that much, I would say Gold is better. You'd get the 100% mileage bonus, and build up your balance faster than if you were silver.


Is a silver even useful on HP, or should I just as soon have dirt? Can 'lower' elites upgrade regularly on HP?


Yes it is. You get the bonus, and a pretty good chance of upgrades. In the days when I was only Silver(seems like a long time ago) I would get upgraded 25-45 percent of the time. However, it really depends on which route you're flying on. EWR-PHX is a busy route where upgrades are hard to come by(especially as a Silver)


How hard is it to redeem miles on HP and BA?


On HP it's easy as hell. I haven't actually redeemed any on BA yet. I'll probably do so next year. I posted a thread with questions about the redemption process for HP awards on BA metal.

HP may block my dream flight to France (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum12/HTML/000726.html)


Do HP FF'ers always wind up paying premium award travel prices?


Not that I've experienced. As plat you even get discounted premium awards.

------------------
God Bless America West and British Airways

HP - Platinum/970k miles
BA - Dirt/5k Soon to be Gold
NW - Dirt/10k Only using for emergency flights
UA - Dirt/19k miles
AA - 60k/Only using to get BA Tier points/miles.

[This message has been edited by ByrdluvsAWACO (edited 01-16-2003).]

IndustrialPatent

Jan 16, 03, 3:01 am

ByrdluvsAWACO:
You did it again! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif In a recent thread, Vaze was also interested in comparing HP to NW/CO and you gave a similar response. My response was not meant to convince him NW/CO was better then HP (I was aware by his participation in the AA forum that he had already decided on AA even before posting to the HP forum) but to correct/balance the information you posted. According to your signature, you’ve flown 10K miles on NW – that’s just 2 RTs from PHX. You’re unfamiliar with NW’s product and you’re unfamiliar with the WorldPerks program, yet you’re writing responses as if you are; specially, NW’s World Business class – you’ve never flown in it, yet you’re “not impressed” with it. Pictures can be deceiving (especially if they’re from airliners.net). NW will shortly introduce a new WBC, and they’ve put out “teasing” press releases… yet you don’t believe it. Please stick to the facts. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Thank you!

IndustrialPatent

Jan 16, 03, 3:17 am

dirtboy,

If most of your flying is domestic, then you should choose from NW, CO or HP (and maybe even AS). Continental had the superior program just a couple years ago (including earning EQM on HP up until last year), but now the three programs are a toss-up. WorldPerks has the largest (domestic) network, allowing you to earn EQM on NW, CO and AS. You can earn EQM on HP if you’re flying to Canada or Mexico – or if you’re connecting (on the same ticket) to NW NRT/HNL flights. All domestic upgrades are free and automatic (NW’s EUA is superior to CO’s). One of my coworkers is a DTW-based Silver and was upgraded on every flight last year. You can redeem your miles on NW/CO/AS and Midwest Express (highly recommended!). I’m usually able to find award seats for the dates I want. Award tickets are 25,000 miles, but you get a 1,500-4,000 mile discount (depending the promotion or promotion code) if you book online. NW is superior in technology – you can make changes to your reservation, check-in up to 30 hours in advance (and get the best seats), etc. – to every carrier IMHO.

Personally, I feel as though onboard service is about the same on NW and HP... I think it comes down to who has the lowest prices, taste, etc. You got the HP and NW perspectives, now get the CO http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif.

ByrdluvsAWACO

Jan 16, 03, 4:27 am

IP,

You did it again!


What did I do?

I based my reply on what dirtboy originally said about flying within the western region. Even you have to admit that NW isn't strong in that area. Luckily, they have AS.

As far as WBC is concerned, you'll remember my "Is NW interior still this ugly" thread in which I asked about the quality(interior asthetics - very important to me) of NW WBC cabins, of which I was not impressed.


and they’ve put out “teasing” press releases… yet you don’t believe it.


I never said I didn't believe it. "thezipper" mentioned to me that NW will be installing the new seats. However, noone has a picture of these seats. So how am I supposed to form an opinion about them? When those new seats are installed I will revisit my opinion on WBC. That's fair isn't it?

BTW- I mentioned that I don't have anything against NW(I am a WP member afterall). I just wasn't impressed with the current WBC cabin.

------------------
God Bless America West and British Airways

HP - Platinum/970k miles
BA - Dirt/5k Soon to be Gold
NW - Dirt/10k Only using for emergency flights
UA - Dirt/19k miles
AA - 60k/Only using to get BA Tier points/miles.

asnovici

Jan 16, 03, 10:50 am

dirtboy,

I have had to decide on precisely the same issue earlier this year. I live in PHX, therefore it would make sense for me to fly HP and become an Elite with them.

However, a thing to remember here is that HP's schedule is limited to a great deal of destinations (especially if you ever fly to Canada and East Coast), the partnership network is extremely small (Big Sky Aiways to Montana, give me a break!).
The partnership network is important, when you consider a destination that has two or three competing carriers flying to from your origin city, and they all have different fares, and they are all partners (able to earn recipical mileage), then the cheapest fare wins.

HP's yield management department is not as competitive as that of NW, therefore they are not always very competitive on fares.

If you are interested in upgrades (who isn't!), remember that NW has AT LEAST 16 FC seats on their planes vs 8 in HP. On B757-300 NW and CO has 24 FC seats, HP's highest number of FC seats is 14 on their B757-200 (old and out of service half the time). True, there is not as many HP Elites as there are NW or CO Elites, but in my NW/CO Silver Elite experience I get upgraded at leats 70% of the time... which is not all that bad.

Ways to earn miles are also much greater on NW or CO, hence they offer an array of promotions, where HP does not anymore.

I am a CO Silver, however since Ive been in the trenches of NW and CO Elite (practically all levels), I strongly recommend NW program. I will be switching to NW from CO at the end of this year myself.

Hope this helps.

dirtboy

Jan 16, 03, 1:14 pm

Originally posted by asnovici:

However, a thing to remember here is that HP's schedule is limited to a great deal of destinations (especially if you ever fly to Canada and East Coast), the partnership network is extremely small.

True... I often tend to overlook network size.

 but in my NW/CO Silver Elite experience I get upgraded at leats 70% of the time... which is not all that bad.


Wow! That's really good. in the last 2 years, I've been at about 55% as NW silver on NW/CO/JI metal


Ways to earn miles are also much greater on NW or CO, hence they offer an array of promotions, where HP does not anymore.


Points well taken. Thanks for your help!

Western Airlines

Jan 17, 03, 3:00 pm

Originally posted by ByrdluvsAWACO:
"thezipper" mentioned to me that NW will be installing the new seats. However, noone has a picture of these seats. So how am I supposed to form an opinion about them? When those new seats are installed I will revisit my opinion on WBC. That's fair isn't it?

BTW- I mentioned that I don't have anything against NW(I am a WP member afterall). I just wasn't impressed with the current WBC cabin.

Some people are of the opinion that the way to form an opinion about a class of service is to actually fly the airline and experience it.

Anyone can be a WP member, it doesn't take long to sign up.

As almost all of your posts do, this thread irks me. For someone like you who rarely flies NW to purport to know a lot and comment on WP is ludicrous. I feel sorry for those who act on your advice.

Need another example of your commenting on things about which you know nothing? Try last week when Sky Harbor was closed most of the morning due to fog, yet you didn't see it. Let's see, CNN reported on it several times, but it didn't happen because you didn't see it. I was there...you couldn't see A/C on taxiway B from Sky Harbor Blvd, and that's probably 100 yards or less.

It is better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

[This message has been edited by Western Airlines (edited 01-17-2003).]

rudystarnberg

Jan 22, 03, 10:54 am

I am a platinum elite member at NW. I used America West for short-hauls from Columbus to EWR, ORD and DCA where NW flights have to stop in DTW (although, Continental flies to EWR). Once in a while, I use AW to fly to Dallas (nonstop) and even LAX. I like AW cheerful color scheme (opposed to NW gray and threadbare look).

Programs: NW is far and away the better FF plan. Although the influx of gold members from Delta has caused the automatic upgrade policy to first to be stressed (I just flew from CMH to SFO and only got upgraded on the 30 minute flight from CMH to DTW). Also, NW gives a big premium for flying business overseas which AW cannot do (1) since they don't fly overseas and (2) why reward travelers for spending big bucks on British Air and NW if AW gets little or no income from it. So, for anyone flying overseas, AW is actually a BAD deal.