JetBlue TrueBlue - Who else hates JetBlue?

I love it, but my spouse absolutely will not travel on JetBlue again. We did 3 trips from JFK to Orlando, and he hated every single minute of it. Too many loud kids, people turned on their TV volume to the fullest, hostess flirting rather than working...etc. See, my husband prefers to read / sleep on the plane, and he kept saying JetBlue is not give 'professional' service (even though we're on vacation).

I even write JetBlue to complain about the noise level. Anyone else have similiar feeling?

No offense but MCO is a kids oriented destination. I think you will find loud kids on every MCO flight no matter what the airline.

.

[This message has been edited by cab747 (edited 07-15-2003).]

Unfortunately that's what I've found on mostly all flights in & out of MCO. Regarding the noise levels, etc. - the JetBlue "experience" is definitely different.

I personally enjoy JetBlue much more than flying with "professionals" as your husband calls them http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

-Chris

Edited to add: Nice #747 post 747 http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
cab747
Posts: 747
From: The left seat of a classic 747
Registered: Aug 2002

[This message has been edited by chrislacey (edited 05-02-2003).]

Flew Jetblue once and absolutely hated it. I would only fly it if I had no other choice and can't imagine how that would happen. Interestingly, there are many times I find they are no cheaper than any other airline. So given the choice, I go elswhere.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cab747:
I like their efficiency but dislike their choice of airplane.


[This message has been edited by cab747 (edited 05-01-2003).]</font>

scarebus... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Every flight to MCO is full of screaming children! Any airline. Any time.

every jetblue flight is loud regardless of destination because people turn the volume up on their headphones. that being said every flight from florida to nyc is loud with kids. but that's 2 separate thoughts.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by 2DCALGA:
every jetblue flight is loud regardless of destination because people turn the volume up on their headphones. that being said every flight from florida to nyc is loud with kids. but that's 2 separate thoughts.</font>

JetBlue, LGB to Oakland is filled with many business pax and very few kiddies. No problem re: headseat volume. As nice a pax mix as I have ever seen,along with a wonderful crew with a great attitude.

Well, yes I know MCO is a kid-prone dstination. But when there is a baby screaming due to air pressure, I dont' see any hostess offering drinks. Some other passengers finally get up and get the baby some drink himself.

Like I said, I have no problem. But I do feel that JetBlue is trying too hard to promote this friendly atmosphere, that it's losing some level of professionalism. One example will be...should the hostess chat very loudly with the passengers while others are trying to sleep on a night trip?

We're flying next month to Vegas, and husband will not let me buy JetBlue. So now I've to pay more for CO,out of EWR.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

I hate JetBlue. Their frequent flyer program is a joke.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TransWorldOne:
I hate JetBlue. Their frequent flyer program is a joke.</font>

I love jetBlue - but I can't deny that the frequet flyer prog is a very bad joke!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TransWorldOne:
I hate JetBlue. Their frequent flyer program is a joke.</font>

I don't think anyone selects Jetblue for its ff program. Or if they do, please speak up. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif For me, it's the people who work there and the great experience they create when I fly their airline. That and it's a fraction of the cost of CO for last-minute cross-country flights. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

As for MCO, everything adamak described I've experienced flying CO and DL to MCO. Jetblue is not alone in that. Screaming kids, kicking kids, befuddled parents------that's standard for flights to and from MCO as well as many other FL destinations unfortunately. That's why I always fly with my CDs.

I actually may be in the minority, but Jetblue's FF program "true blue" is decent. Better than Skymiles in my opinion. I've been a memeber since last May and now stand on 99 points--with a May flight up to Buffalo, I'll have a free RT ticket on Jetblue. Now I can use this to go to San Diego or San Juan--nonstop from NYC. Im not complaining at all. I basically had 4-5 quick trips from JFK-BUF or ROC and a LAS and LGB from JFK flight. If this is any other program, Im sitting at around 20K miles...

JetBlue has made it very clear that they aren't selling a frequent flier program like the premium carriers, but they will reward loyal travelers with a barebones program. The model they are selling, and one I think is very effective, is a low-cost, high quality flight experience.

They don't pretend to be a SQ. But they're doing a great job being a B6. Sadly, in certain cases, they are providing better service than those that have a full-fledged frequent flier program.

Sorry, I don't buy it. WN is a much better airline with better service and amenities. The TV inflight is nice, but that's about all. I guess you JFK folks have little choice. But for the rest of us, Southwest is better in every way.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TransWorldOne:
Sorry, I don't buy it. WN is a much better airline with better service and amenities. The TV inflight is nice, but that's about all. I guess you JFK folks have little choice. But for the rest of us, Southwest is better in every way.</font>

WN has better amenities?

Snacks: I think B6 wins here
Seats: B6 has a extra inch of width and WN an inch of pitch. I'll take width anyday.
Upholstery: Leather v. cloth...
Advance boarding: How do you like having to get to the airport at least 2 hours early to secure your desired seat? Or better yet, if you get to the airport with only 30 minutes till flight time many times will not be able to put your roll aboard in a bin because they are full.
Inflight Service: I'd say this is a draw
Route Network: Obviously WN wins here
Flying standby: B6 is free and i believe that WN makes you buy up to unrestricted fare to do so.
IFE: Obvious
FFP: You gets more free trips faster with WN

Overall doesn't sound so cut and dry to me.



[This message has been edited by audio-nut (edited 05-06-2003).]

While I haven't yet flown JetBlue, I do like them since they have caused their competition to lower their fares. Accordingly, I now pay less for the same upgraded seats and still earn miles for future worldwide travel.

That said, I would like to try JetBlue someday just to see what the buzz is all about!

------------------
"A Mile here is an Upgrade there!"

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JAX Flier:
While I haven't yet flown JetBlue, I do like them since they have caused their competition to lower their fares. Accordingly, I now pay less for the same upgraded seats and still earn miles for future worldwide travel.

That said, I would like to try JetBlue someday just to see what the buzz is all about!

</font>

I agree!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TransWorldOne:
Sorry, I don't buy it. WN is a much better airline with better service and amenities. The TV inflight is nice, but that's about all. I guess you JFK folks have little choice. But for the rest of us, Southwest is better in every way.</font>

Wow, do I disagree! WN has the cattlecar approach to seating. If flyers like that, they can have it. I find WN adds more stress to the already stressful experience known as travel. WN does have excellent employees as B6 does, so I won't disagree with that. Plus, WN is inconvenient to NYC. If you drive out to ISP (or take a 2 hour ride on the LIRR), you have to change planes for most WN destinations. So that means more experiences with the cattle cars. No thank you. B6 offers more choices with snacks, assigned seating, leather chairs, and DirectTV. Far superior to the WN product IMHO.



[This message has been edited by Analise (edited 05-06-2003).]

I'm no expert having never flown WN or B6, but whenever I pass a Southwest ticket counter or terminal, the line inevitably stretches out the door and around the terminal. For that reason alone, I could never fly WN.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PresRDC:
I'm no expert having never flown WN or B6, but whenever I pass a Southwest ticket counter or terminal, the line inevitably stretches out the door and around the terminal. For that reason alone, I could never fly WN. </font>

I have seen this on both B6 and WN as well as every major. The difference is that B6 ands WN have very simple ticket tranactions and their lines move extremely quickly. I have never waited on a line more than 10 minutes at either. In fact I have waited on the AA biz class line for more time (I'm gold).

Kids should act like regular pax, not like animals. I can understand toddlers and small kids but by at least 7 they can be quiet like good pax.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by fromYYZ_flyer:
Kids should act like regular pax, not like animals.</font>

I certainly agree. Yet children should not be blamed; it is their parents/guardians who allow such behavior. I can't ever get angry with someone's else's child. But their parents----that is a different story.

When I flew as a little girl, my parents were strict about my behavior. In fact, the rule when I grew up was that if I or my siblings disturbed even just one passenger, we would be left home on the next trip. Funny how real old-fashioned parenting seems to work, isn't it?

WN and B6 are both excellent airlines,though I am a little bias. Both airlines have there good points as well as there bad. If you hate the kids on the flight going to MCO, try a WN flight from OKC to DAL on a friday night or when school is out, unaccompanied minors out the a**.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TransWorldOne:
Sorry, I don't buy it. WN is a much better airline with better service and amenities. The TV inflight is nice, but that's about all. I guess you JFK folks have little choice. But for the rest of us, Southwest is better in every way.</font>

"But for the rest of us..." I fly out of OAK, and I perfer jetBlue over Southwest, the only time I fly Southwest is when theres no seat left on a jetBlue flight or if I'm going to the Pacific Northwest. I hate Southwest and everything about them. They offer horrible snacks, too many lines to wait in, and not to mention you don't know where you are going to sit until you get on the plane. Oh yeah and what is up with the new "canyon blue" colors, it makes their plane look even worst than before. ok ok, southwest is a good airline if u compare it to say... Sun Country or United but for me its jetBlue all the way and American for places that jetBlue doesn't fly to.

I''m a hardcore UA flyer but for short trips from OAK to LGB I think Jetblue is a much better value. I fly that route about once a month and I don't stay overnight. On JetBlue I pay about $80 compared to $200-400 on Southworst/UA. As for the FF program, I agree that it isn't great but the way I fly them I will have a ticket to San Juan by the end of the year! And believe me I'd much rather fly JB to the East Coast than Southwest. Also, I really like being able to watch the East Coast feed on the plane specialy being able to watch SNL on the 8:30pm flight from LGB to OAK :-)

I booked my daughter a one way ticket JFK - LAS when she comes home for the summer. It was only $89! I really like that! I was going to burn 25K UA miles, but for $89, why?

I can't wait to hear how it compares to UA and DL...

&gt;&gt;WN has better amenities?

Snacks: I think B6 wins here&lt;&lt;

How so? They have different color chips? WN has a great snack pack for long hauls.

&gt;&gt;Seats: B6 has a extra inch of width and WN an inch of pitch. I'll take width anyday.&lt;&lt;

I am 6' with a 33" waist. If I'm sleeping, I would go with pitch.

&gt;&gt;Upholstery: Leather v. cloth...&lt;&lt;

Look at WN's new interior: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/176557/M/

&gt;&gt;Advance boarding: How do you like having to get to the airport at least 2 hours early to secure your desired seat? Or better yet, if you get to the airport with only 30 minutes till flight time many times will not be able to put your roll aboard in a bin because they are full.&lt;&lt;

Draw-B6. There are people who prefer not having assigned seats, especially last minute business travelers. They now have a better chance of getting an aisle seat instead of a middle.

&gt;&gt;Flying standby: B6 is free and i believe that WN makes you buy up to unrestricted fare to do so.&lt;&lt;

But when it comes to changing tickets, B6 charges $25, while WN charges zippo.

&gt;&gt;&gt; WN has better amenities? &lt;&lt;&lt;
&gt;&gt; Snacks: I think B6 wins here &lt;&lt;
&gt; How so? They have different color chips? WN has a great snack pack for long hauls. &lt;

What is WN's snack pack (I have never gone transcon with them). B6 also has a snack pack that consists of cheese /crackers, a NutraGrain fruit bar and a tootsie roll. B6 has more than the chips. They have cheddar goldfish, biscotti, chocolate chip cookies and bagel mix. The only things I have seen on WN is wheat thins, peanuts and pretzels.

&gt;&gt; Upholstery: Leather v. cloth...&lt;&lt;
&gt; Look at WN's new interior: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/176557/M/ &lt;

I was not aware of this change. Are they only on the new planes or are they retrofitting the entire fleet. Is there a timetable?

&gt;&gt; Advance boarding: How do you like having to get to the airport at least 2 hours early to secure your desired seat? Or better yet, if you get to the airport with only 30 minutes till flight time many times will not be able to put your roll aboard in a bin because they are full. &lt;&lt;

&gt; Draw-B6. There are people who prefer not having assigned seats, especially last minute business travelers. They now have a better chance of getting an aisle seat instead of a middle. &lt;

I disagree again. For the last minute ticket purchaser to get a good seat on B6 they can show up at the airport and take the exit rows or one of the 4 rows in the front. They are all held back for airport control. For anyone to get a good seat on WN they HAVE to get to the airport early. B6 makes it so everyone can get a good seat either by booking in advance or showing up at the airport early.

I flew Jet Blue back in March and that's quite enough for me, thank you. The aircraft and the flight itself were fine, but the aggravation getting to that point is just not worth it.

The Queens-JFK shuttle bus did not operate as described on the web page, costing me a half-hour, my 1 hour flight to BUF was delayed three hours due to a cancelled flight out of TPA or LAS, I forget which, their personnel at JFK lied to me, twice, about availability of an alternate flight to ROC, and all this happened at JetBlue's JFK hub, which is just not acceptable.

I'll pay more and keep flying with the adults.

I am having a VERY tough time convincing myself to fly CO or DL anymore because I am so happy with Jetblue. The value of earning miles is falling IMHO not just because its so hard to use them but also because I never want to use them because the fares are so low.

I love the $25 change fees and DirecTv. Tired of lies and concerns from CO and DL.

Love Jetblue especially out of JFK. No long security line at Jetblue - MIles long at delta & AA.

CLean plane, nice inflight tv etc....

Snacks almost better than Delta or AA these days.....

Plus......love the web site - easy to see inventory - no guessing about which flight is cheapest.

Couldn't ever FLY sOUTHWEST - ISP IS 10 MINS FROM ME BUT CAN'T STAND the boarding cattle call - might as well travel to a real airport (JFK) than get to ISP extra early! (plus the runways are too short at ISP and you feel as if the plane is making an emergency landing!)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by RichG:
I flew Jet Blue back in March and that's quite enough for me, thank you. The aircraft and the flight itself were fine, but the aggravation getting to that point is just not worth it.

The Queens-JFK shuttle bus did not operate as described on the web page, costing me a half-hour, my 1 hour flight to BUF was delayed three hours due to a cancelled flight out of TPA or LAS, I forget which, their personnel at JFK lied to me, twice, about availability of an alternate flight to ROC, and all this happened at JetBlue's JFK hub, which is just not acceptable.

I'll pay more and keep flying with the adults.</font>

Your anger stems on everything possibly going wrong for you at once. I've never trusted any type of airport ground bus service so I can't comment on that. Flights get cancelled on the majors and I've been abandoned too many times at dead-end locales thanks to CO mechanical difficulties. Did you verify the problems on your cancelled JetBlue flight or did you think it was because you were fated to be inconvenienced? Annoying things happen but they happen much less often on JetBlue. When you look at the majority of responses JetBlue has gotten just on FT alone, it can't compare to anybody else.

Hey, go fly with "adults". I prefer being with the professionals who appreciate my business. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Being in Chicago, I haven't had a chance to fly JetBlue, but I'm not sure if I would fly them if they did come here.

A few points:
Aircraft: B6 definately scores points here. I like window seats, and the extra space on the airbus aircraft make these really nice. (I once felt really cramped on what I thought was a UA Airbus, only to pull out the card to find it was a 737. Urgh.)

Entertainment: TV. ugh. I'd much rather have the ATC audio on United than stuck with TV. And on short flights, no entertainment is just as fine.

FFP: Well at least they have one. Though, it ends up about like ATA's aniversary travel program and requires a lot of flying in a short time to get an award. I prefer Southwest's simple program for short trips, and United's for the long hauls.

Seating: Assigned seating could be nice - though it would be good to be able to do it before buying a ticket. I've chosen United flights based on the availability of seats. For short trips, I prefer Southwest's open seating. I can almost always find a seat near the front of the airplane to facilitate a quick exit. With assigned seating, I'm often stuck with a middle seat somehwere in the back, while my bag is stuck elsewhere.

Food: Isn't it odd that the 'we dont serve food' discount airlines now end up having better food than the full-service airlines.

Seats: Southwest has leather on everything I fly. JetBlue has leather. I prefer cloth. Northwest and United win here.

Check in: I like electronic check in. Printing out a boarding pass online is also nice. Southwest's security document is even nicer. (Gets you past secuirty, though you can still change your mind and decide not to
fly.)

Purchasing: Southwest wins hands down. JetBlue does have a nice next day/previous day button, but it's still somewhat convoluted like most other airlines. I like southwests ability to pick the type and restrictions for each ticket. Southwest's no-change fee is also great. Though standby is also nice to have.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by smahk:
Love Jetblue especially out of JFK. No long security line at Jetblue - MIles long at delta & AA.

CLean plane, nice inflight tv etc....

Snacks almost better than Delta or AA these days.....

Plus......love the web site - easy to see inventory - no guessing about which flight is cheapest.

Couldn't ever FLY sOUTHWEST - ISP IS 10 MINS FROM ME BUT CAN'T STAND the boarding cattle call - might as well travel to a real airport (JFK) than get to ISP extra early! (plus the runways are too short at ISP and you feel as if the plane is making an emergency landing!)</font>

Not to mention that at ISP when you stand in one place at the arrival area for more than 5 seconds waiting for a ride, everyone will come towards you offering you a ride for couple of hundred of dollars.

I live in Orlando and flew from MCO to JFK three times last year on Jetblue. Because each time I bought a one way ticket, I was selected for the "random" gate search harassment treatment, which we all know is not effective. On one flight about 60 people were selected for the gate search treatment, which is over one third of the passengers on the flight. After the third flight last year, I decided not fly Jetblue anymore as I did not need this unecessary harassment. I wrote to the CEO of Jetblue and told him the reason for my decision and all got was a stupid answer from their customer service department.

Last week as the gate search treatments had ceased a few months ago, I decided to give Jetblue another chance, and I took a flight from MCO to JFK. I bought a one way ticket and was again selected for a special search at the TSA security checkpoint. In speaking with the TSA personnel, it appears that Jetblue select about 3 times as many passengers for this special treatment as other Airlines. Why?

Also, I have to comment that noisy kids are on many flights to/from MCO and that is just part of "Orlando", but I have noticed on Jetblue that the noise level higher than normal, especially with noisy kids.

I am all for good Airport security, but I will no longer tolerate Jetblue's so called "random" security selection and noisy flights. I am a Delta 4MM Skymiles member and will be looking forward to SONG's expansion at MCO in the coming months, despite Delta's Skymiles changes, the new alternative to Jetblue.

In 37 years of commercial flying, I've never traveled on Southwest or Jet Blue. How unique am I?

I've never been chosen for the special search on JetBlue... but I never buy a one way...

OrlandoFlyer,
Totally agree with what you say. I have flown CO and NWA and AA and USAir down to MCO, and have never experienced anything as bad as JetBlue. I guess it's tough to calm passengers down when the hostess themselves are doing standup comedy routines.

hostess? On my recent trip, there were 2 male FA's . They were not not [hostesses] [/b] what a quaint old term. Have not heard Fa's described as "hostesses" in years

I've never seen a JetBlue hostess or comedian on any flight I've taken. Sounds like people are badmouthing an airline they've never taken. Hmmmm. And to say that they never experienced rowdy kids on flights to and from MCO on airlines other than Jetblue is also a fabrication. You put children on any mode of transportation heading to Disneyworld and you will see hyper kids---it's in their blood unless they've been abused all of their lives. C'mon people, if you hate Jetblue, give real reasons. Don't make things up in front of seasoned travellers; those things go nowhere.

Analise,
I have honestly travelled on JetBlue 3 times, and this thread is not a fake post bad mouthing Jetblue. As I said, it could just be my experiences. And I did write to the airline about that.

The thing about rowdy kids. I understand and expect loud kids flying to Orlando (I don't expect loud adults though). But that's specifically not what we're annoyed about. It was a baby who was crying his head off. The baby NEEDS water because of the air pressure. The FA (or hostess) did NOT offer any help. She was too busy laughing with the other passengers. Finally someone else sitting next to the baby offer some juice to the baby, and he calmed down a bit.

Now, of course, I can say that the parents should be responsible for the situation. However, to see the FA just breezed by saying, "Ha ha, the baby doesn't like to go see Mickey", that's just not right.

Just want to give my opinion, that's all.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by adamak:
I have honestly travelled on JetBlue 3 times, and this thread is not a fake post bad mouthing Jetblue. As I said, it could just be my experiences. And I did write to the airline about that.

The thing about rowdy kids. I understand and expect loud kids flying to Orlando (I don't expect loud adults though). But that's specifically not what we're annoyed about. It was a baby who was crying his head off. The baby NEEDS water because of the air pressure. The FA (or hostess) did NOT offer any help. She was too busy laughing with the other passengers. Finally someone else sitting next to the baby offer some juice to the baby, and he calmed down a bit.

Now, of course, I can say that the parents should be responsible for the situation. However, to see the FA just breezed by saying, "Ha ha, the baby doesn't like to go see Mickey", that's just not right.

Just want to give my opinion, that's all.

</font>

You did make it sound like every time you fly, the "hostesses" (I guess you mean the FAs) are doing schtick. From my experience with flying any airline, when babies cry, FA's typically don't run over proactively. They respond when called by the parent. Now if an FA ignored a passenger and was chit chatting with her colleagues, this is uncalled for. No question. But perhaps if this FA about whom you are talking were in fact with another passenger and laughing, perhaps she did not hear that particular baby because with her career, she hears lots of babies and this one did not register as needing her specific proactive help.

Also, how would an FA know that all babies need water when crying? A baby could be sick and need something else. Let the parent tell the FA what the baby needs.

[This message has been edited by Analise (edited 05-22-2003).]

I can honestly say that if this is the only reason people hate jetblue, then this airline is in great shape. The MCO flights on ANY airline are loud and full of kids--I see that as some serious nitpicking.

Does anyone have problems with the low fares(esp last minute), wider seats and free direct TV?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by kdinino:
I can honestly say that if this is the only reason people hate jetblue, then this airline is in great shape. The MCO flights on ANY airline are loud and full of kids--I see that as some serious nitpicking.

Does anyone have problems with the low fares(esp last minute), wider seats and free direct TV?

</font>

Jetblue and Southwest are useless in the NYC area. Unless you are looking for something cheap and spur of the moment and even than they are both no bargain.

Useless in NYC? Why do you think the majors fares have dropped so much? ESP. AA to SNA,LGB, etc?

Puhleeze. Try flying non-stop to LAS for under $250...useless? Lots of people think otherwise. Investors, passengers and competing airlines sure don't think jetblue is useless...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Arcolaio99:
Jetblue and Southwest are useless in the NYC area.</font>

Yup, JetBlue is so useless that it is making one heck of a profit and are catalysts for major fare reductions from NY airports. How exactly do you define "useless"? LOL

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by kdinino:


[snip]

Does anyone have problems with the low fares(esp last minute), wider seats and free direct TV?

</font>

kinda. middle seat leg/storage-room is devastated by those IFE boxes. doesn't outweight the benefits, though. Particularly if you're on the aisle or window http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JeremyZ:
kinda. middle seat leg/storage-room is devastated by those IFE boxes. doesn't outweight the benefits, though. Particularly if you're on the aisle or window http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif.</font>

Are you guys for real?

The last transcont low cost carriers were all fly by not operations with no service, horrible planes, etc (Tower Air, etc). JetBlue is an improvement over than and to be honest is LOADS better than the Y product on the majors now. Sure F on a major carrier is nice, but that's not the market B6 is trying to compete against.

Heard of something called supply and demand? There is NO demand for the major's product at the HIGH Y fares they were charging. Hence the fares went down....

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Arcolaio99:
Jetblue and Southwest are useless in the NYC area. Unless you are looking for something cheap and spur of the moment and even than they are both no bargain.</font>

This is one of the STUPIDEST things I've read on any one of these forums in all the time I've been watching FT.

Anybody that purchases one way tickets from the NYC area to the L.A. or San Francisco area can tell you how dramatically the fares have dropped since Jet Blue has entered the market.

The only way these airlines are useless is if you have a tree that grows hundered dollar bills in your backyard. In that case, you wouldn't have that much use for anything.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Because each time I bought a one way ticket, I was selected for the "random" gate search harassment treatment, which we all know is not effective. [/B]</font>

In the last year, I had purchased 1 round trip tickets and 10 one way tickets on jetBlue (mostly between CA and NY) and I had never been selected for the "random" gate search harassment treatment. In addition, on two of the one way trip I had no check or carry on luggage, than again, it was a quick trip from Oakland to Long Beach.

Amen, AS Flyer.

Also, I am of the opinion that unless you have flown JetBLue, you can't make a qualified judgement of the airline compared to others.

Leather and private DirectTV is fine but I have had to cancel and rebook a trip 3 times this year on SW, which was free. Also every 4th R/T you get a free R/T on SW. This means more to me than any thing else.

In my opinion, JetBlue is far superior to Southwest. Just having a assigned seat is a show of civility that somehow eludes Southwest.

For me, JetBlue is a decent last resort carrier. I find the seating cramped, especially on long flights, the allure of Direct TV wears off real fast. The best channel they offer, the airshow, has so many JetBlue promotional spots, it's unwatchable. The schtick is old, too. Most importantly is the frequent flyer program. It stinks. AA takes me all over the world. JetBlue takes me upstate.

But they are smart. If I flew once a year, paying for a family of five to make an annual trek to Disney, then I would probably buy the hype.

JetBlue is not the worst. Southwest holds that distinction. But JetBlue is far from the best, either.

Just my two cents.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by kdinino:
Useless in NYC? Why do you think the majors fares have dropped so much? ESP. AA to SNA,LGB, etc?

Puhleeze. Try flying non-stop to LAS for under $250...useless? Lots of people think otherwise. Investors, passengers and competing airlines sure don't think jetblue is useless...

</font>

Fist off JFK is a pain to get to and navigate. Second, I cna fly Co to vegas for about the same as Jetblue and I would rather do that. I have a chance at FC and some food. Thirdly WN is way the hell out in LI, which is a logistical nightmare. LI is a night mare regardless of what you are going for. I think it comes down to personal choice in this matter. I have even attempted to give Wn a chance and fly from ALB, they are no cheaper than any of the major carriers. What is the big deal with B6 and WN. They are nothing like a major carrier and offer no international service, which I need.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by AS Flyer:
This is one of the STUPIDEST things I've read on any one of these forums in all the time I've been watching FT.

Anybody that purchases one way tickets from the NYC area to the L.A. or San Francisco area can tell you how dramatically the fares have dropped since Jet Blue has entered the market.

The only way these airlines are useless is if you have a tree that grows hundered dollar bills in your backyard. In that case, you wouldn't have that much use for anything.</font>
You are buying one ways. Obviosly they might be chepaper. I sitll disagree with you on this topic. When jetblue or Southwest will get to SIN than I might conisder them.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Arcolaio99:
What is the big deal with B6 and WN. They are nothing like a major carrier and offer no international service, which I need.</font>

Well there you have it. Your needs are international. Your needs involve getting in First class as often as possible. Well that's fine. But why hate Jet Blue? Jet Blue's market doesn't match your needs so this is no reason to hate them. They are not a fit for you.

For me, it's as much of hassle to go to EWR as it is to JFK. Most importantly, I work in a small firm with lots of last minute travel. I need an airline which will give me the best price. For my cross country travel, JetBlue does it for me. And I love direct tv. So it's win/win.

Wow, noisy kids on a fight to MCO, now there's a surprise. Actually I find the A320 to be a noisy airplane. Don't blame the FA if someone's child is crying, that's what the parents are for not FAs. I have three sons and they all have travelled with me since they were 3 months old. When they were young I made sure I had bottles ready for take off and landing.Of course if you want to make sure there are no screaming kids in your section of the plane, buy a first class ticket on one of the big boys. Spend the money, hard to take a person seriously when the complain about kids on a discount airline flight.

I have taken one Jetblue flight from BUF to FLL. It was a one way ticket and yes I got TSA special search. Big deal, they were friendly and courteous. Would rather they err on the safe side. Had to change the date of my flight, was prepared to pay a change fee and the difference in the fare classes just like the big boys, after all it was an $ 86.00 ticket, they waived both. Enjoyed the advance seat selection. Found the planes to be clean, cabin crew pleasant and enjoyed the IFE. Departed both legs on time. All and all a pleasant flight experience and they will get some more of my business. Want something to compare Jetblue to, fly the big boys on a regular basis, you get to pay more for less. If you are in it for the FF miles, get a credit card that give miles and charge everything you can to it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by B767:
If you are in it for the FF miles, get a credit card that give miles and charge everything you can to it. </font>

Hey, thats how I earn AAdvantage Miles on all my jetBlue tickets. =o)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Arcolaio99:
Fist off JFK is a pain to get to and navigate. Second, I cna fly Co to vegas for about the same as Jetblue and I would rather do that. I have a chance at FC and some food. Thirdly WN is way the hell out in LI, which is a logistical nightmare. LI is a night mare regardless of what you are going for. I think it comes down to personal choice in this matter. I have even attempted to give Wn a chance and fly from ALB, they are no cheaper than any of the major carriers. What is the big deal with B6 and WN. They are nothing like a major carrier and offer no international service, which I need.</font>

Do you think the majors would have those great fares if WN/B6 didn't fly the same routes?

I hate jetblue and all there stupid extra costs. I hope the company falls apart

This thread is so inane. Just a bunch of whiny "big boys" who fly international all the time. Good for them. If I were them I'd be a UA/AA guy too.

But I'm not. Most people don't travel all the time for a living, and some that do only do it domestically. For them, what's wrong with JetBlue?

Modern equipment, decent amenities onboard, liveable legroom without having to fight for an exit room, and relatively consumer friendly fee structures/etc. Its a clear step above WN, AirTran, etc.

Why the hate?

And this JFK stuff is just nonsense. Here's a clue: take your blueblooded butt down to Penn Station, hop on the LIRR, get off at JFK, and take the AirTrain to your terminal. You'll be there in no time, at little expense and frustration.

It's also a thread from 5 years ago...

It's also a thread from 5 years ago...

And the last poster's account has been suspended. I thank him for his well wishes for my job future, and wish him a pleasant flight on an another airline, which in course, will also have all the extra costs (except WN ;)).

It's also a thread from 5 years ago...

Yet, it seems like this "discussion" could have taken place last week. Funny that the arguments haven't changed(all that much) but Jetblue has managed to double(?) the size of their network and following in the time that has elapsed.

I will say most of the conversation these days, at least compared to this one thread, are more based on substantive issues, however.

I only read the OP, and I wonder what their spouse's view of B6 is today.

I only read the OP, and I wonder what their spouse's view of B6 is today.

Probably hasn't changed much. The impression I got of him bordered on terminally unhappy.

A lot has changed in five years.

First off, jetBlue is much bigger. I principally fly jetBlue for business. I will only pick another airline if jetBlue doesn't provide service to my destination (I'm based in NYC).

I think B6 is a terrific airline for anyone flying on business on budget. Comfortable seats, plenty of legroom, never a slow security line at JFK T-6.

I like the fact that B6 is not primarily a business person's airline; I find the average traveler more relaxed and friendlier than the grizzled, burnt-out road warriors that predominated on the legacies.

Also, I am very happy with their frequent flyer program. It's not fancy, but it does what an ff program was designed to do (provide award travel) very effectively.

As a former CO elite, I was essentially never able to book my award itinerary of choice, and certainly not at the "regular" level.

With B6, I use my points to send my family to visit grandma in California every year. We have always been able to book our primary itinerary of choice. And there is only one award redemption level. That's a huge savings over the legacies who make you fly twice the distance in order to qualify for award travel.

Of course, B6 is not perfect. There have been the horrifying lapses during the two winter ice-storm episodes.

B6 also isn't really so cheap anymore, but I fly them not based on price but on the quality of the product.

Also, it's interesting to note the five-year old discussion of seat pitch compared to WN; after a few major iterations, B6 has had more seat pitch than WN for a few years.

Now JetBlue wants us to believe they will compensate someone who is delayed when it's JetBlue who is at fault. Well let's see, I say. My sister and 96 year old mother arrived 2 hours early at SFO for a delayed flight to JFK and went directly to the gate listed on their computer printed boarding pass. But Jet Blue changed the gate and not to one nearby. In fact it was in a completely different corridor with its own security. Not only that but they bumped up the time too. No one from JetBlue was at the original gate to give directions or to escort my mother (who uses a walker) through secure areas to try to reach the new gate on time. They simply don't care. Elderly, disabled, why should we bother? In fact their first response to my request for compensation was pure fiction. They said they offered my mother a wheel chair when what they really did is sent my sister to a white phone to order one herself. One which never came. They said they warned my sister not to sit outside waiting, which they only did after they missed their first flight and had to wait another 8 hours for the next one. Now that I have escalated the problem there is a "specialist" named Jenna working on it. Assigned, she says, by the CEO to handle ADA type matters. At last contact she said she was getting details from the General Manager at SFO. But what is there to find out that they don't already know? They know the original departure gate and what it was changed to. They know how far apart they are and the difficulty getting from one gate to the other, especially for one who is 96. They know they placed no one at the old gate to give directions or escort my sister and mother through secure areas to get to the new gate faster. But, what I think they know most of all is that they have a conflict of interest and they really don't want to live up to their word. This distinguishes them from United whose executives responded to my complaints about boarding issues on another flight, and rectified them immediately. Not only that, they provided compensation even though I never asked. Now you tell me who is better.

I can sympothise, mannacio. However, I won't beat up B6 too much about both the gate change and the not helping your mother. The wheelchair service is usually run by the airports, not the airlines (the exceptions may be in hub locations like Continental might do their own at terminal C at EWR). Also, with no one being at the old gate, its probably because all their manpower was at the new gate, which would have been also posted on the monitors, ensuring the flight gets off on time. If you pull one of the people from the newly assigned gate to go just to stand at the old gate, you reduced the productivity at the assigned gate anywares from 33% to 50 % (depending if there are 2 or 3 people assigned to work that gate at that time) which will delay the flight even more. Remember, this is an out station where the resources are a lot more thing than at hub location (i.e. BOS or JFK). JetBlue is more at the mercy of SFO than they are at a JFK, BOS, or MCO. We all, regarless of circumstances, have to grin and bare it when things get a little hairy.

BTW, welcome to FlyerTalk.

I use to fly Jetblue all the time (non-stop from LGB to FLL) but at the time they had a very inconvenient return flight (7am departure at FLL). I started using continental for the return, and even though it was a 1-stop, it was better for me (SNA is closer than LGB).

Then I found out about Elite Status, became a Silver Elite, and actually got an complimentary upgrade to First Class, and I had Priority boarding and Security Lane Access. JetBlue lost me there. I fly enough (150k BIS miles so far this year) that those perks are important to me.

My relationship with JetBlue is a love/hate one. If you compare back of the plane CO or DL to JetBlue, they are competitive, but if you are getting moved to the front 70% of the time on the legacies, it tilts the scales to them.

There is now a very convenient flight from FLL-LGB that leaves at 6pm, but I have only taken it a couple of times, since I am focused on requalifying on CO and DL next year (at 100k for DL, but 50k for CO, so 25k more to go).

If JetBlue wants to know the value of a FF program, that is it, in a nutshell.

Now JetBlue wants us to believe they will compensate someone who is delayed when it's JetBlue who is at fault. Well let's see, I say.

So, then, to sum it up: Your mother and sister missed their first flight because they were sitting outside of security and did not leave enough time to get to the gate and Jetblue did not warn them about this the first time. Jetblue noticed that your mother may need a wheelchair and although one wasn't requested during reservation(I assume) suggests that you can request one from the airport. The SFO airport wheelchair attendant never shows. After those 8 hours had passed your sister and mother go to their assigned gate, apparently without a wheelchair, and wait, while noone from Jetblue is at the assigned gate. Did they then miss their 2cd flight? You didn't mention. And now, you want to apply a Passenger Bill of Rights(that really has no bearing on your situation) to get the compensation you feel you're entitled too. Hmmm.

1. Missed the first flight. No fault of Jetblue.
2. Never got wheelchair which was requested from the airport authority and not Jetblue. No fault of Jetblue.

I think your beef is with the SFO wheelchair service for not supplying you with the wheelchair that Jetblue suggested you may need. Good luck with the extortion technique, I'm sure Jetblue will roll over just like United, even though you didn't ask for compensation. Apparently, you've learned a thing or two from you're last experience and now start your complaint: Jetblue says they will compensate for a delay that's their fault...Well, we'll see about that.

On a totally unrelated note: I take back what I said in the 2cd paragraph of Reply 66.

But Jet Blue changed the gate and not to one nearby. In fact it was in a completely different corridor with its own security.

I know all airlines have gate changes, but I never seen a jetBlue flights depart from the G side of SFO. It just doesn't make any logistical sense for SFO to change the gate assignment from the A side to the G side of the International Terminal. It can't be any other terminal since jetBlue operates out of the International Terminal. It would mean the luggage will have to be routed all the way across the airport plus all the passengers would have to move from one secure area to another. If the plane is already at the A side, it would have to taxi all the way around the airport to get to the G side.

Anyone that work at SFO, especially the international terminal, will find this story hard to believe. It's funny how there was no complaint about going up the elevator / escalator from the original gate and back down another set of elevator / escalator to the new gate given the situation of the passengers. SFO's international terminal is design in a way where each waiting area have 2 gates and to get there you have to go down a set of escalator or elevator from the main terminal area.

I just flew them for the first time LGB (there's a 3rd-world airport for ya!)-OAK. I actually liked 'em, even considering this is my first coach flight in a couple of years. I'll probably use them on an upcoming group trip to FLL in a few months.

I just flew them for the first time LGB (there's a 3rd-world airport for ya!)-OAK. I actually liked 'em, even considering this is my first coach flight in a couple of years. I'll probably use them on an upcoming group trip to FLL in a few months.

I love LGB. I think its a great little airport. Easy in and Easy out.

I love LGB. I think its a great little airport. Easy in and Easy out.


I second that. LGB is my favorite airport. Easy in & out and they need to put more jetblue flights out here!!

All you folks praising LGB must not have waited in that hot-a-s'd canopy you stand in before the 1st round of security, nor had to get your bags in the Springtime when it's raining.

LGB is even worse than say, SJD.

I love jetblue, and LGB is the greatest. I love the air stair method of getting on a plane, it's always makes it seem like a grand adventure!

I choose jetblue whenever possible!:)

Thanx for the kind words. While we aren't without fault the frontline crewmembers try to make it the best experience as possible. Word on the street is that rear stair boarding might be coming to JFK with the new terminal. No official word from the company though.

Thanx for the kind words. While we aren't without fault the frontline crewmembers try to make it the best experience as possible. Word on the street is that rear stair boarding might be coming to JFK with the new terminal. No official word from the company though.

Would it really be useful at JFK?? Down the stairs to get out of the terminal and then back up to get onto the plane doesn't seem like it would save much time. On the plus side, you'll have earned the calories for those unlimited snacks. :p

Not that this is the best forum to talk about rear-deplaning, but on a flight last week to JFK (on an E190), they offered rear-deplaning. I had never seen that before at JFK and I remember at the DO that the Jetblue rep mentioned that they airport didn't allow rear-deplaning or boarding. Does anyone know if it was recently approved? I wish I knew what gate I was at. All I know is that I was at the "real" gates and not the makeshift trailer gates that you take the shuttle to.

That's the first that have heard of us rear deplaning at JFK. It was my understanding the the PANYNJ wasn't going to allow it because of the amount of traffic and potiental problems that could be associated with it.

My assumption if it did not save time (getting people off the plane quicker) then B6 would not invest in adding it to JFK. Enough people must use it at the other airports (I have seen it done in PBI & LAS) so that there is a benefit to the company and customers. If I was in the back half of the plane (without my family) then I would use it as I do not like to wait for the rest of the plane to get off. BTW has anyone heard when the schedule will be extended past 1/31 ? I am trying to plan my presidents day vacation.

Rear deplaning is great in the markets that utilize it. I believe it is JFK that does not allow it, not JetBlue.

While there is no science to the extension of schedules, I would expect tickets to go on sale beyond 1/3 sometime in the next month.

Thank you.

I suspect the port authority is afraid of someone tripping and suing them (New York has many lawyers). So my guess is that B6 convince the PA to do a trial run in T6 so that they can prove it could be done safely. My guess is that for T5 they will have the painted yellow lines to show people where to walk.

JetBlue bites me in the ... again. Sitting in AUS waiting for my 4 hour delayed flight to Boston. I should have known better.

I guess those pax on DL 5574 to CVG and EWR and CO 251 to EWR should have known better too.

I guess those pax on DL 5574 to CVG and EWR and CO 251 to EWR should have known better too.

Jesus, give it a rest, will ya? I can't stand the constant defense of this airline. This is a 6 hour mechanical delay I am looking at. 6 hours.

Look on the bright side: a least you are not on the plane. I felt sorry for those Phoenix passengers who got stuck on the plane for hours (due to thunderstorms yesterday) (See the USAIR forum). At least you are in a nice airport (unlike LGA or JFK terminals 2/3). These days when flying you need to lower your expectations . Actually getting their on time with the luggages is like winning the lottery.

Look on the bright side: a least you are not on the plane. I felt sorry for those Phoenix passengers who got stuck on the plane for hours (due to thunderstorms yesterday) (See the USAIR forum). At least you are in a nice airport (unlike LGA or JFK terminals 2/3). These days when flying you need to lower your expectations . Actually getting their on time with the luggages is like winning the lottery.

The bright side is that I got JetBlue to give me my money back and I am taking it to another airline. I'm not going to sit around till 5:30 wondering whether or not this flight will be canceled. I need to get home tonight.

I hope you are not booked thru NYC as we have weather & volume related delay here . I figure if the day ends in a 'Y' we will have some sort of delay.

Jesus, give it a rest, will ya? I can't stand the constant defense of this airline. This is a 6 hour mechanical delay I am looking at. 6 hours.

First off, you of all people telling me to give it a rest, thats hillarious. You bash Jetblue every chance you get making snide comments whenever you see the chance to.

Second, I did not know that it was a mechanical delay, you didn't mention that. JFK is having some weather/volume related delays and I thought that it was related to that (ie JFK-BOS delayed therefore BOS-AUS is delayed and therefore AUS-BOS is delayed)

Wirelessly posted (Blackberry: Mozilla/2.0 (compatible; MSIE 3.02; Windows CE; PPC; 240x320) BlackBerry8700/4.1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

Jesus, give it a rest, will ya? I can't stand the constant defense of this airline. This is a 6 hour mechanical delay I am looking at. 6 hours.

First off, you of all people telling me to give it a rest, thats hillarious. You bash Jetblue every chance you get making snide comments whenever you see the chance to.

Second, I did not know that it was a mechanical delay, you didn't mention that. JFK is having some weather/volume related delays and I thought that it was related to that (ie JFK-BOS delayed therefore BOS-AUS is delayed and therefore AUS-BOS is delayed)

Heh, actually if you do a search you'll find I am complimentary of Jetblue when they do something well. Unfortunatelyn in my experience, that doesn't happen too often. YMMV.

BTW, 6:20 posted departure now. Original departure 11:50. Wow.

The 6 hour delay suck. It does. There is no doubt about it. However, 3 upsides I see to it:
1)You still gunna get back to BOS today
2)Seeing you marked on your profile that you're from BOS and assuming that's your final destination, you're not got have to deal with getting a new connecting flight back.
3)Hello Bill of Right voucher. 6 hour delay is worth a free round trip ticket. Now if you're P.O.ed with JetBlue to ever use it, I gaurentee you a 100 FTers waiting for you in BOS when you land tonight that would be willing to take it. If not, take a nice long weekend somewhere. Maybe even a day trip.

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The 6 hour delay suck. It does. There is no doubt about it. However, 3 upsides I see to it:
1)You still gunna get back to BOS today
2)Seeing you marked on your profile that you're from BOS and assuming that's your final destination, you're not got have to deal with getting a new connecting flight back.
3)Hello Bill of Right voucher. 6 hour delay is worth a free round trip ticket. Now if you're P.O.ed with JetBlue to ever use it, I gaurentee you a 100 FTers waiting for you in BOS when you land tonight that would be willing to take it. If not, take a nice long weekend somewhere. Maybe even a day trip.

What is the justification for #1? If they don't fix what is wrong and it ends up canceling, I'm stuck in AUS for the night.

I have flown JetBlue many times and unfortunately need to do so because of their price. I have no problem with the flight crew, check in counters or gate service. They have always been awesome to me. It's their corporate customer service policy. If there is anyone that has advice for me to get compensation from them for the following, I would greatly appreciate it. I've reached a dead end...

I know the following drags on, but keep in mind when the cancelled my flight, I had two kids at home (age 10 and 11) by themselves for two days!

On Sunday, 7/27, my return flight from Boston to San Diego was canceled due to weather, just as I arrived to the airport. I understand about flights being cancelled due to weather, however, why are other airlines flying? After holding on the phone for half an hour, I was told the next available flight was scheduled for Monday, 7/28 at 7:30am. This flight was then canceled due to "crew legalities" (lack of crew) and after holding for 40 minutes, I was told the next available flight was Tuesday at 5:50pm.

I confirmed my flight fo Tuesday, arrived at 4:45pm and told by the check in counter that the flight was overbooked and I would have to wait for yet another flight. After begging to get home to my children, the agent stepped away to speak to his supervisor. 20 minutes passed before he returned and told me he had to literally run me through the airport, TSA and to the gate to board me on the flight. Aparently, a crew member who was traveling had to give up his seat and sit in a jump seat so I could have his seat.

Over the course of my two canceled flights, I spoke to JetBlue agents
numerous times trying to get on a plane, any plane. They would not allow me to change airlines, as many other airlines were flying, but not JetBlue. I was also not eligible for hotel or food.

My biggest concern from the first canceled flight on Sunday, which I continually expressed to every person I spoke with, was my 10 and 11 year old being home alone. I am widowed and they only had a babysitter until I got home from the airport Sunday night. I tried in vain to get supervision for my children but unfortunately, no one was available to watch them. My children were terrified that they were forced to stay home alone from Sunday night until Tuesday night. I asked repeatedly about compensation and lodging each time I called and was told JetBlue does not compensate for canceled flights due to weather.

I was told once to ask for a voucher when I came in, but the agent never explained to me what a voucher was. I never had time to ask when I got to the airport on Tuesday because I was more concerned about getting on the plane.

I spent the next two nights homeless, sleeping in my rental car. I called many hotels to no avail. Aparently, there were no rooms available Sunday night due to the Yankee's being in town playing the Red Sox. JetBlue endangered my children! They were terrified the police or social services were going to show up and take them away or worse yet, thought I would never come home, just like their daddy.

JetBlue also not only severely inconvenienced me but made me physically sick.
I was not able to eat, sleep, shower or even rest for two days being worried sick about my children home alone 3,000 miles from me with no one to take care of them.

I can't believe that JetBlue is willing to let their name be associated with this type of customer service. I expected compensation from JetBlue for endangering my children and putting me through this undue stress and causing me to become physically sick.

After arriving home, I wrote to them the above information and a week later received an email stating that I would receive no compensation and referred me to their Bill of Rights.

I phoned Customer Service and spoke to a supervisor and again explained my situation to no avail. I asked how JetBlue would feel about me going to the media telling them they left my children home for two days. She had the audacity to tell me..."I would strongly consider telling the media that YOU left YOUR kids home unsupervised for two days." AMAZING!

When I asked about compensation for the canceled second flight, not weather related but crew legalities, she stated that the crew was not available because they could not get to the airport because they were stranded at other airports, so it was weather related. No compensation.

Oh, and the Bill of Rights states that if you're bumped due to overbooking, they will pay you $1,000. No wonder they ran me through the airport to get me on the plane at the last minute.

Yes, thank God, I made it home and my children were safe and sound, but how dare JetBlue put me through that ordeal.

Any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

I would have looked for a flight on another airline and then asked for a refund (not a credit) from B6.

On Sunday, 7/27, my return flight from Boston to San Diego was canceled due to weather, just as I arrived to the airport.

First, let me be the first to welcome you to FlyerTalk! You'll find that this is a great community and has a wealth of information. Also, I hope that you enjoyed your stay here in Boston, even if it was a few days longer than you expected.

As for your troubles, trust me, a few of us here know exactly what you are upset about. JetBlue has a tendency of canceling flights when the sun is shining, and because a.) they only fly once or twice per day to many cities, and b.) refuse to interline, i.e. move you to another airline, delays like you experienced are quite common.

Honestly, I have no suggestions for recourse at this point, but can sincerely sympathize with your frustration at JetBlue. I have more or less sworn off flying them for times when I really care about getting somewhere.

I was supposed to fly BOS-DEN on B6 that same weekend, and amazingly, JetBlue canceled flights on 3 out of 4 consecutive days! You can read the account here:

July 25 Weekend (http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=848408)

This thread also covers approximately the same time period:

July 27 (http://http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=849221)

Any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

Unfortunately you've experienced the major problem with this airline: reliability isn't high. When things go bad they get very bad very quickly. Because JetBlue doesn't have agreements with other airlines, they can't put you on a competitor. Chances are if you were on a different airline you would have gotten home much much sooner.

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

I asked how JetBlue would feel about me going to the media telling them they left my children home for two days. She had the audacity to tell me..."I would strongly consider telling the media that YOU left YOUR kids home unsupervised for two days."

... well, to be honest ...!

I phoned Customer Service and spoke to a supervisor and again explained my situation to no avail. I asked how JetBlue would feel about me going to the media telling them they left my children home for two days. She had the audacity to tell me..."I would strongly consider telling the media that YOU left YOUR kids home unsupervised for two days."

Uhhh ... she has a pretty valid point there.

... well, to be honest ...!

Uhhh ... she has a pretty valid point there.

While valid, I'm not sure it is B6's place to make such a comment. YMMV.

Four things

1. If you have flown with JBLU so many times already, then you should understand that the it is a one off incident among many good ones, and cut JBLU some slack.

2. If every time the reason you choose to fly JBLU is because of its lower price, then probably you should not be flying. Average air fare is on the rise, and the most price sensitive segment is being squeezed out of the market.

3. Honestly, how can you leave two children at home unattended? It is your own fault that you did not pre-arrange anything, then used that an reason to pressure JBLU for faster accomodation - there is only this much an airline can do. I would side with the customer service this time.

4. For any complaint to a service provider, you need to be very specific on what you want and why you deserve it. You are not clear as what you want, and there are probably other pax from the same cancelled flights, so you are just one of many. Again, using children home alone does not work this time, and if you put that in the writing, it would not be surprised if JBLU forward the letter as evidence against you to the proper authority


I have flown JetBlue many times and unfortunately need to do so because of their price.

I phoned Customer Service and spoke to a supervisor and again explained my situation to no avail. I asked how JetBlue would feel about me going to the media telling them they left my children home for two days. She had the audacity to tell me..."I would strongly consider telling the media that YOU left YOUR kids home unsupervised for two days." AMAZING!

When I asked about compensation for the canceled second flight, not weather related but crew legalities, she stated that the crew was not available because they could not get to the airport because they were stranded at other airports, so it was weather related. No compensation.

2. If every time the reason you choose to fly JBLU is because of its lower price, then probably you should not be flying. Average air fare is on the rise, and the most price sensitive segment is being squeezed out of the market.


This doesn't make any sense at all.

In fact, the opposite is true. With rising airfare prices, less valuable FFPs, and decreased service (nickle and diming) it makes all the more sense to shop based on price.

Four things

1. If you have flown with JBLU so many times already, then you should understand that the it is a one off incident among many good ones, and cut JBLU some slack.



Actually, I'd say it's yet another example of JetBlue failing, miserably, to get the pax where they want to go. Forget the kids -- this is about a 3 day delay! Does 3 extra inches of legroom, a couple bags of blue chips, and DirecTV allow you to forget the fact that you're stuck in a foreign city for 3 days?



2. If every time the reason you choose to fly JBLU is because of its lower price



Aside from price, what other reason is there to fly JetBlue? It's well-documented that most non-elites choose airlines based on price. Given that B6 has no elites, it seems logical that most people who choose them, do so based on price.

Now maybe in another month when AA discontinues BOS-SAN, B6 will have an advantage as the only non-stop on the route....

2. If every time the reason you choose to fly JBLU is because of its lower price, then probably you should not be flying. Average air fare is on the rise, and the most price sensitive segment is being squeezed out of the market.This just makes no sense, on so many levels...

It makes sense as it is micro econ 101.

You shop on price ---> the lowest price is always the least desirable product
higher average price and lower supply ---> most price sensitive pax cut travel



This doesn't make any sense at all.

In fact, the opposite is true. With rising airfare prices, less valuable FFPs, and decreased service (nickle and diming) it makes all the more sense to shop based on price.

I can't say I hate JetBlue but I was highly annoyed by them recently. My friend was on the SMF-JFK flight on 7/27 and the flight was cancelled due to weather. My friend was flying to NY to sit for the NY Bar Exam. I contacted customer service and got her on a flight the next morning out of OAK. I drive her down to OAK the next morning and get a call from her as the gate rep is saying they cannot locate the crew, they do not know when the flight will leave (or if it will) and for the pax not to ask any questions.

My friend fearing not being able to make it to NY at all for the exam and believing that B6 was not going to get her there at all was forced to purchase a ticked on United which cost $300 more than the B6 ticket and required me to drive her down to SJC to make the flight. All B6 would do is refund the amount of their portion.

Honestly, I believe B6 should compensate her for the $300 she's out due to the actions of the gate personnel in Oakland that day. I spoke to the B6supervisor at SJC who said they would submit the request but after two follow-up calls to B6's customer service people and two weeks of waiting I'm thinking they won't do anything. Anyone here know whom I can speak to at a higher level to get this resolved for my friend?

I'm also not happy to learn B6 is suspending the SMF-JFK trip for four months starting in January. The only reason I fly them is because they have the only non-stop between here and JFK which I love.

I love it, but my spouse absolutely will not travel on JetBlue again. We did 3 trips from JFK to Orlando, and he hated every single minute of it. Too many loud kids, people turned on their TV volume to the fullest, hostess flirting rather than working...etc. See, my husband prefers to read / sleep on the plane, and he kept saying JetBlue is not give 'professional' service (even though we're on vacation).

I even write JetBlue to complain about the noise level. Anyone else have similiar feeling?

Pardon me, but I see you've been a flyer talk member since 2003 and belong to numerous FF programs. Perhaps it is better if you fly another carrier, as your husband doesn't seem to care for B6. Might I suggest noise cancelling headphones? Kids cry, plain and simply. You are not there to be a babysitter, why do you expect FA's to?:confused:

I can't say I hate JetBlue but I was highly annoyed by them recently. My friend was on the SMF-JFK flight on 7/27 and the flight was cancelled due to weather. My friend was flying to NY to sit for the NY Bar Exam. I contacted customer service and got her on a flight the next morning out of OAK. I drive her down to OAK the next morning and get a call from her as the gate rep is saying they cannot locate the crew, they do not know when the flight will leave (or if it will) and for the pax not to ask any questions.

My friend fearing not being able to make it to NY at all for the exam and believing that B6 was not going to get her there at all was forced to purchase a ticked on United which cost $300 more than the B6 ticket and required me to drive her down to SJC to make the flight. All B6 would do is refund the amount of their portion.

Honestly, I believe B6 should compensate her for the $300 she's out due to the actions of the gate personnel in Oakland that day. I spoke to the B6supervisor at SJC who said they would submit the request but after two follow-up calls to B6's customer service people and two weeks of waiting I'm thinking they won't do anything. Anyone here know whom I can speak to at a higher level to get this resolved for my friend?

I'm also not happy to learn B6 is suspending the SMF-JFK trip for four months starting in January. The only reason I fly them is because they have the only non-stop between here and JFK which I love.

Why, oh why, do people insist on taking a flight to a very important event and refuse to leave room for scheduling/weather/crew problems and then expect the airline to pay for the customers choice?

Why, oh why, do people insist on taking a flight to a very important event and refuse to leave room for scheduling/weather/crew problems and then expect the airline to pay for the customers choice?

The exam was on the morning of the 29th. This person wanted to fly on the 27th to arrive on the 28th, 24 hours before the exam was to start.

How much room did you expect them to leave? I'd think 24 hours is reasonable enough.

Why, oh why, do people insist on taking a flight to a very important event and refuse to leave room for scheduling/weather/crew problems and then expect the airline to pay for the customers choice?

I agree. With JetBlue one is best leaving about a week for scheduling/weather/crew problems. That should be adequate (unless it is winter).

It makes sense as it is micro econ 101.

You shop on price ---> the lowest price is always the least desirable product
higher average price and lower supply ---> most price sensitive pax cut travelReally...

That's what they taught you in Econ 101?

:)

Really...

That's what they taught you in Econ 101?

:)

Someone might want to ask for their tuition back. :)

When the company in essence repudiated the contract they made with my friend, there really is not much choice. She had to get to New York and had run out of options with B6 who was incredibly not helpful in informing passengers of whether the flight would leave or their alternatives.

I understand that certain issues are outside the airline's control (weather, ATC) which is why she wasn't that upset about leaving out of OAK the next morning. Had the flight they put my friend on been the first out of the morning we would also have understood issues with crew positioning. However, the flight they put her on was not the first flight out of the morning. Also, the attitude of ground staff (I don't know where the crew is or if the flight will be getting out and don't ask me any questions) left a lot to be desired and could have been handled on B6's end so much better.

Also. she was supposed to leave Sunday night from SMF arriving in NY Monday morning for a test on Tuesday morning. That is more than a reasonable period of time before the exam to arrive.

you draw a supply and demand curve, and figure it out yourself - a bit simplistic but it is exactly how the yield management works

Now, refer to this post - a wrong high school math
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10160260&highlight=#post10160260

and, then, an invalid excuse, it is algebra rather than geometrhy
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10160949&highlight=#post10160949

I would think that the prep course for econ 101 is not done



Really...

That's what they taught you in Econ 101?

:)

no need actually, I had my tuition and living stipend all paid by scholarships


Someone might want to ask for their tuition back. :)

you draw a supply and demand curve, and figure it out yourself - a bit simplistic but it is exactly how the yield management works


OK so let's step through this one move at a time. You claim that the OP, who flies on price, shouldn't be flying at all? What does this have to do the supply and demand curve?

no need actually, I had my tuition and living stipend all paid by scholarships

Maybe you should pay them back then. :)

Well, this makes three for three. Three flights booked on JetBlue over the last year, all canceled the day of travel. No other options, no rebooking, just "sorry!" At least their online refund process is easy since calling their phone number said "We are really busy right now, try again later, this call ends now!" Great customer service.

I understand weather issues, but can I just be this unlucky or does CancelBlue never fly?

Anyways, I don't care, I only use them to go to markets AA doesn't service, I will just book on Delta or someone else moving forward. Thanks for the chance to vent.

While valid, I'm not sure it is B6's place to make such a comment. YMMV.
She(? I'm just guessing by the tone) brought it on themselves, attempting to slander B6 via use of her(?) own neglilgence. ("Officer, arrest that guy- he stole my cocaine!")

She(? I'm just guessing by the tone) brought it on themselves, attempting to slander B6 via use of her(?) own neglilgence. ("Officer, arrest that guy- he stole my cocaine!")

Yeah I just don't think corporations should be involved in these little tit-for-tat pissing matches.

and, then, an invalid excuse, it is algebra rather than geometrhy
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10160949&highlight=#post10160949Silly ciaobel.

Calculating the difference between a and b as

(1+a)/(1+b) - 1

is commonly referred to as a geometric difference. :)

(Used for example in finance to calculate inflation-adjusted investment returns, etc.)

I am, with my multi-year donation pledge

Maybe you should pay them back then. :)

you got me :)

Silly ciaobel.

Calculating the difference between a and b as

(1+a)/(1+b) - 1

is commonly referred to as a geometric difference. :)

(Used for example in finance to calculate inflation-adjusted investment returns, etc.)

Well, this makes three for three. Three flights booked on JetBlue over the last year, all canceled the day of travel. No other options, no rebooking, just "sorry!" At least their online refund process is easy since calling their phone number said "We are really busy right now, try again later, this call ends now!" Great customer service.

I understand weather issues, but can I just be this unlucky or does CancelBlue never fly?

Anyways, I don't care, I only use them to go to markets AA doesn't service, I will just book on Delta or someone else moving forward. Thanks for the chance to vent.

Well my flight was cancelled out of JFK as well today. However Jetblue was great with it. They first sent me a text message to inform me on my cellphone. Then they had an automated call contact me on my home and cell numbers. I had the choice to press 1 to speak with a customer service rep. I decided not to as I wanted to see online what my other options were.

I called back, and had the longest hold time I've ever experienced with jetblue (7 minutes) Considering all of the cancellations, I'd say that is pretty good! The representative gave me the choice of full refund, or rebooking at the next earliest flight (tomorrow) I took her up on that option, she booked me immediately, and to top it all off she was able to change my return flight to a later time without any fees as a courtesy. I fully expected to pay a change fee for that one!

Where is the bad service? Oh yeah, the cancellations are due to the following:

=========================
* THUNDERSTORMS ARE EXPECTED TO DEVELOP THIS AFTERNOON AND WILL LIKELY PRODUCE TORRENTIAL RAINFALL ACROSS THE REGION INTO THE LATE AFTERNOON AND EARLY EVENING.

* RAINFALL RATES WILL RANGE FROM 1 TO 2 INCHES PER HOUR IN THE STRONGEST THUNDERSTORMS. AREAS THAT EXPERIENCE SLOW-MOVING THUNDERSTORMS OR MULTIPLE THUNDERSTORMS...COULD RECEIVE OVER 3 INCHES OF RAIN IN A SHORT TIME.
==========================

Also, very clearly on the Jeblue homepage there is a rather large alert "Northeast Weather Advisory, in which when you click it brings you to three options:

Rebook Without Fee
Credit Card Refund
Request Credit

What else can they possibly do? I dont know how you can miss the option to rebook

http://www.jeblue.com/JetblueAlerts/WeatherUpdate.aspx

Unfortunately you've experienced the major problem with this airline: reliability isn't high. When things go bad they get very bad very quickly. Because JetBlue doesn't have agreements with other airlines, they can't put you on a competitor.

I'd go further than this. Reliability is JetBlue's only major flaw. If JetBlue could fix this, they could win a ton of business. Becoming highly reliable would admittedly require a complete overhaul of the schedule under more conservative assumptions, allowing some spare aircraft and crews, and probably relocating a lot of the JFK service to a less delay-prone airport. That might be a cure that kills the patient. So I think we are stuck with the situation pretty much as is.

What else can they possibly do? I dont know how you can miss the option to rebook

There were no other seats today, and going tomorrow was kind of pointless as I am only going for the weekend. So I got a refund, bought a more expensive ticket from Delta - since it was last minute, and amazingly got where I was going just fine. For some reason Delta, AA, and others are able to fly just fine today. I don't see a weather advisory on any of their sites.

Anyways, sounds like Jetblue works well for you. Good luck with them.

I flew SLC LGB return the end of last month.
Price-very nice
LGB Nice airport-especially when you're checking in late-no stress no bother
Planes-fine-reasonably comfortable
Snacks-Er BLUE chips ??? Uh Okaaaay
Crew No wannabe comediannes-just smiling and genuine (or genuine seeming) service
Passengers Urghhhhh Trust me to get the mother with lap child who had to be moved into one seat from three. I guessed she was probably nursing so offered her the window but no she insisted on the aisle-and proceeded to nurse her baby through the flight (as I tried to distract my son from the "view") and then changed a dirty diaper in her seat. <sigh>

Probably unfairly I'm really not keen to travel jetblue again-Oh and I had added my FF number to the reservation and it didn't track

Probably unfairly I'm really not keen to travel jetblue again-Oh and I had added my FF number to the reservation and it didn't track

Just curious as to why? By your account the only real issue I can see on your short-haul is the pax you were seated next to.

You were able to fix the TrueBlue credit, right?

I'd go further than this. Reliability is JetBlue's only major flaw.

1. Dismal frequent flyer program (see separate thread)
2. Poor route network with nothing outside N. America.
3. No interline agreement (which would put a band-aid on their reliability problem)
4. No premium cabin.

Interestingly, these characteristics describe Southwest as much as JetBlue.

1. Dismal frequent flyer program (see separate thread)
It's a customer loyalty program, since JetBlue does not fly. That's what the other guys do. And, it is obviously not designed for your segment - it works beautifully for many. A company can't be everything to everyone.

2. Poor route network with nothing outside N. America.
Stupid argument - JetBlue was not founded to have a vast international/transoceanic network. At 8 years old, the domestic network has grown signifigantly. Actually, JetBlue was one of the fastest-growing airlines in history.

3. No interline agreement (which would put a band-aid on their reliability problem)
This can be crossed out, as it is what nsx mentioned in the first place: I'd go further than this. Reliability is JetBlue's only major flaw. In other words, your list is to add to that one flaw, but this one repeats itself.

4. No premium cabin.
Again, JetBlue is not everything to everyone. An extremely tiny percentage of travelers experience "premium" treatment. No first class seats...no second class citizens. Plus, domestic F on the legacy carriers is a complete joke.

Interestingly, these characteristics describe Southwest as much as JetBlue.
JetBlue is a new and improved Southwest - IFE, snacks, cabin comfort, etc. But thanks for the compliment, considering Southwest is the most profitable U.S. airline ever - including record profits with no nickle and diming in these difficult times.

It's a customer loyalty program, since JetBlue does not fly. That's what the other guys do.You can drink all the jetBlue marketing kool-aid you want. :)

But remember, to the rest of the world: jetBlue is an airline that can fly you places, and trueBlue is their frequent flier program. @:-)

Actually, JetBlue was one of the fastest-growing airlines in history.


Second only to People's Express I assume?

Second only to People's Express I assume?

Many differences that I won't even go into detail about - people, start-up capital, product, longevity.

You can drink all the jetBlue marketing kool-aid you want. :)

But remember, to the rest of the world: jetBlue is an airline that can fly you places, and trueBlue is their frequent flier program. @:-)

You're right - transportation is all the same. But there's a difference in how it's delivered. JetBlue was always personal, talking to the people. Take a look:

American Airlines: We know why you fly

Continental Airlines: Work hard. Fly right.

United Airlines: It's time to fly

Delta Air Lines (old school): We love to fly and it shows

Virgin America: Flying is believing


JetBlue: Somebody up there likes you; Sincerely, JetBlue; even the old "It's not the only way to fly...but it should be" shows the move away from the word flying.

Happy Jetting!

PS - That kool aid tastes sooooooo good @:-)

PS - That kool aid tastes sooooooo good @:-)Yes - it's obvious that you enjoy it. :p

Many differences that I won't even go into detail about - people, start-up capital, product, longevity.

I never made a comment about any of that. Was just ask commenting on the growth rate comparison, which you don't seem to deny.

But for the record, PEX supposedly had fantastic people to start with, many of whom nearly got drunk on the corporate kool-aid. Maybe there are more similarities than I thought......

1. Dismal frequent flyer program (see separate thread)
2. Poor route network with nothing outside N. America.
3. No interline agreement (which would put a band-aid on their reliability problem)
4. No premium cabin.

Interestingly, these characteristics describe Southwest as much as JetBlue.

I regard all those as minor flaws. Years ago they would have been major, but in each of those areas (especially the first one) the legacy carriers have systematically devalued their product. Nowadays you need to be a top elite before the legacy airlines give you a clearly better product.

I never made a comment about any of that. Was just ask commenting on the growth rate comparison, which you don't seem to deny.
But for the record, PEX supposedly had fantastic people to start with, many of whom nearly got drunk on the corporate kool-aid. Maybe there are more similarities than I thought......
More similarities? I listed differences. I would say what was PE's position/situation at 8.5 years of age (B6's current age), but they didn't even make it to that milestone. Factor in JetBlue's current position and age compared to that of PE at the time.

I regard all those as minor flaws. Years ago they would have been major, but in each of those areas (especially the first one) the legacy carriers have systematically devalued their product. Nowadays you need to be a top elite before the legacy airlines give you a clearly better product.
^ Agreed. A fee to redeem a free ticket...who woulda thought!

I regard all those as minor flaws.

You regard lack of interlining a minor flaw?

What is a major flaw then?

You regard lack of interlining a minor flaw?

Yes. Once upon a time, a legacy airline would instantly Rule 240 you over to another airline when you faced even a 1-hour delay. Nowadays unless you are a top elite, you might not get a Rule 240 at all. That's one of the systematic devaluations I spoke of.

The other advantage of interlining is ability to check bags for overseas connections and connections to small airports. The percentage of trips that involve those connections and require checked bags is quite low. (For me, it's below 1%, but that's me.) The low percentage of travel is what makes this a minor flaw: You can just choose another carrier for those rare trips.

What I consider a major flaw is not getting you where you are supposed to go safely and reliably. I would once have considered complete lack of a FF program a major flaw, but it's not any more: Legacy FF programs have lost that much value.

Yes. Once upon a time, a legacy airline would instantly Rule 240 you over to another airline when you faced even a 1-hour delay. Nowadays unless you are a top elite, you might not get a Rule 240 at all. That's one of the systematic devaluations I spoke of.


I don't understand this "unless you are a top elite" stuff, as if it somehow makes B6 look better. It doesn't. The fact that you can, if you fly enough, get special privileges on their airlines is a good thing.

So the point you're making is that interlining isn't always available to everyone that flies. Fair enough. But you would have to agree that for a lot of the situations we've seen recently (like the woman who couldn't get home for 2 days because B6 was full), they would have been interlined. It is certainly my experience that non-elites get moved over to airlines for same-day arrival if the carrier can't get you there. Is your experience different?

It is certainly my experience that non-elites get moved over to airlines for same-day arrival if the carrier can't get you there.

That sounds correct, although these days there aren't enough empty seats on those other carriers to accommodate a planeload from a canceled flight. So you might end up waiting until the next day regardless.

If you are a top elite, the legacy FF programs and benefits are strong enough that you would correctly perceive these 4 items as major flaws. But those benefits don't trickle down to the rest of us with enough frequency to tip the balance. Schedule reliability, OTOH, is important on every trip.

^ Agreed. A fee to redeem a free ticket...who woulda thought!

What's your point? JetBlue charges $5 to redeem their free tickets too!


4.5 TrueBlue Members are responsible for all passenger facility charges, customs and immigration fees, departure fees, September 11 Security Fees, taxes, and any other fees or surcharges applicable to Award Travel. Fees and surcharges must be paid by credit card or JetBlue-issued credit shell only at the time Award Travel is ticketed. Award Travel will not be ticketed without payment. Tax consequences for Award Travel, if any, are the responsibility of the TrueBlue Member.

That sounds correct, although these days there aren't enough empty seats on those other carriers to accommodate a planeload from a canceled flight. So you might end up waiting until the next day regardless.



With all due respect, do you actually fly the legacies? As moderator of WN and B6 forums, I'm guessing that these are your primary carriers. And this makes me wonder if your statements about the legacies are based on actual experience or what the media says. Some of us can actually provide anecdotal evidence to support our statements -- for example, I've seen UA cancel a DEN-BOS flight, the penultimate flight of the night, and still get everyone out! That was just 2 weeks ago! Yes, planes are full, but I've only had 2 bumps all summer, so they ain't THAT full! (unfortunately!)

That sounds correct, although these days there aren't enough empty seats on those other carriers to accommodate a planeload from a canceled flight. So you might end up waiting until the next day regardless.


There's a big difference between "may" and the JetBlue approach, in which it is almost guaranteed. Other carriers often have more options for routings and connection points, making it easier to get folks around to the various destinations. And when you add other carriers into the mix you can move 120 people out 5-10 at a time on other carriers and make it happen. The routings/connections might not be ideal, but it can be done.

With all due respect, do you actually fly the legacies? As moderator of WN and B6 forums, I'm guessing that these are your primary carriers. And this makes me wonder if your statements about the legacies are based on actual experience or what the media says. Some of us can actually provide anecdotal evidence to support our statements -- for example, I've seen UA cancel a DEN-BOS flight, the penultimate flight of the night, and still get everyone out! That was just 2 weeks ago! Yes, planes are full, but I've only had 2 bumps all summer, so they ain't THAT full! (unfortunately!)

Further there are just so many options available to a carrier like UA, I can't imagine people get stuck nearly as often as they do on B6. If you want to get from BOS to DEN and UA cancels their flight, you can go through ORD or IAD, not to mention SFO or LAX before they have to send you to another airline. This opens up all kinds of options, a veritable litany of options compared to B6.

Ok, back to the delay/cancellations of flights. (Boston to San Diego - Sorry, not a pro on this site yet)

I agree with the weather issues. It's an act of God that can't be helped and they aren't responsible. I worked in the new home building industry and we were used to many weather delays from rain. So someone is 30 days away from closing on their house and they are living with their parents or a rental they have to be out of and have a storage unit that they've already given notice to. With customer service, we don't offer anything because of a delay in the close of escrow, but given each circumstance of written complaints by the homeowner, we do make accommodations like pay their extra storage or rent for the delays even though it's written in the contract that delays due to an act of God cannot be helped. It's called keeping the customer happy.

As for those of you who think I left my kids at home alone...They had a babysitter til Sunday night when I was supposed to return home. My husband was killed on his motorcycle by a stupid driver two years ago. I have no family out here and was visiting one of my children in Boston. When I was rescheduled for Monday morning after my Sunday afternoon flight was cancelled due to thunderstorms that never showed, I understood. But to cancel Monday mornings flight because they can't get crew to work and the next available flight isn't til Tuesday night? Please explain that one to me. I just don't understand. So it's my fault that I can't find anyone to watch MY children because of JETBLUE'S lack of employees? Don't condem me because I'm stuck without any supervision for my children and no means of family/friends to help.

I'm just talking customer service here. You go to McDonald's and they screw up your order. They gladly give you a refund and profusely apologize. Why is it diffferent because it's an airline? Why are they exempt to being held to a customer service standard and not delivering on their service. And I'm not talking about the weather, I'm talking about the delay due to flight crew availability.

I'm not rich by any means. My husband died without a life insuranace policy. I've been laid off (new home building industry) for over a year now and it's not getting much better in Southern California. I HAVE to fly cheap. I'm sorry that I have to rely on a major corporation to get reliable transportation to and from my child and expect to get there THE SAME DAY...

Please give me some advice or help me better understand. Thanks

Try writing to your local congressman or women . (or even Senator) . They can be reached via email also . If you are lucky they are on a committe that can give some grief to the airline (ie try to convince them to interline during inclement weather ). A 1 day delay is ok but 2 or 3 days is not good.

Try writing to your local congressman or women . (or even Senator) . They can be reached via email also . If you are lucky they are on a committe that can give some grief to the airline (ie try to convince them to interline during inclement weather ). A 1 day delay is ok but 2 or 3 days is not good.

Why would you bother a congressman over a flight cancellation/delay? That seems like rather misplaced venting.

To tjmcdaneld, you got hosed by JetBlue. It sucks. Your expectations of reliable service being provided for the fare that the carrier chose to offer the seat at were reasonable, and the carrier did not deliver on that. You could've gotten your money back at that time, but you'd have been without travel accommodations. Or you wait until they can get you on a plane. You learned the hard way that JetBlue doesn't handle irregular operations very well.

As for your kids being abandoned at home, that is certainly a very difficult thing to deal with. But it also isn't JetBlue's problem to deal with and it takes an argument from logical and reasoned to emotional. And that is never a good way to try to win an argument. If you didn't have kids at home you still would've been abandoned by the airline for two days away from home, and that is where the frustration should be focused, IMO.

I agree with the weather issues. It's an act of God that can't be helped and they aren't responsible. I worked in the new home building industry and we were used to many weather delays from rain. So someone is 30 days away from closing on their house and they are living with their parents or a rental they have to be out of and have a storage unit that they've already given notice to. With customer service, we don't offer anything because of a delay in the close of escrow, but given each circumstance of written complaints by the homeowner, we do make accommodations like pay their extra storage or rent for the delays even though it's written in the contract that delays due to an act of God cannot be helped. It's called keeping the customer happy.

And that works for your business and in your industry. JetBlue's business and the airline industry are far different, and if a check had to be cut for hotels for everyone who was inconvenienced by weather, they wouldn't have a business for very long. In some cases, yes, some out-of-the-box accomodations can be made to keep the customer happy. But as a business, you've got to find the line between "keeping the customer happy" and "ensuring the continual financial stability of your business." As cold as it sounds, sometimes it's just not worth it to keep the customer happy.

When I was rescheduled for Monday morning after my Sunday afternoon flight was cancelled due to thunderstorms that never showed, I understood. But to cancel Monday mornings flight because they can't get crew to work and the next available flight isn't til Tuesday night? Please explain that one to me. I just don't understand.

You just explained it to yourself. There are a finite number of people, and there are plenty of people to operate your flight. The problem is that these people may not be located where you happen to be, or be legal to fly your flight if they've just timed out due to weather delays. Customers aren't the only ones flying -- deadheading crews will be working your flight later. If you accept that the weather may force cancellations, it's not really a far reach to understand that your crew may have been on those cancelled flights.

The simple answer is to say "well, hire more people, and base them in [X] city." If cancellations and crew displacements were normal, that may be the way things are. But, given that cancellations are generally unpredictable and definitely not a daily occurence, it's hard to justify the cost of keeping extra heads around "just in case."

I'm just talking customer service here. You go to McDonald's and they screw up your order. They gladly give you a refund and profusely apologize. Why is it diffferent because it's an airline? Why are they exempt to being held to a customer service standard and not delivering on their service. And I'm not talking about the weather, I'm talking about the delay due to flight crew availability.

See above for how weather can impact crew availability. But, JetBlue's Bill of Rights agrees with you, and if a weather event forces crew availability to be an issue days later, it's usually covered for some type of compensation.

If the weather cancels your flight, you are usually offered a refund, or rebooking if it is acceptable to your schedule.

Customer service expectations differ from industry to industry; corporation to corporation. What may be the policy of McDonald's may not be the policy of Burger King. There are no cut and dry rules except those spelled out in the Contract of Carriage. And one thing about B6 that I personally like is that often times, the crewmembers -will- go above and beyond to try to help you out in the best way possible, even if it means bending established norms. But, again, it all goes back to my first point and how the industry operates -- sometimes, the most customer-friendly option isn't the best option for a business to take.

What's your point? JetBlue charges $5 to redeem their free tickets too!

JetBlue is not charging the $5 ($2.50 each way) to redeem a free ticket - that's a federal excise tax/security fee! Some other carriers, on the other hand, actually have "booking fees" and "fuel surcharges" on award travel.

JetBlue is not charging the $5 ($2.50 each way) to redeem a free ticket - that's a federal excise tax/security fee! Some other carriers, on the other hand, actually have "booking fees" and "fuel surcharges" on award travel.

To be fair, if you book award travel within 14 days of the date you're booking for, there's a $25 fee per person.

There's a big difference between "may" and the JetBlue approach, in which it is almost guaranteed. Other carriers often have more options for routings and connection points, making it easier to get folks around to the various destinations. And when you add other carriers into the mix you can move 120 people out 5-10 at a time on other carriers and make it happen. The routings/connections might not be ideal, but it can be done.

Good post. IRROPS are part of JetBlue's reliability weakness.

And no, I haven't had recent experience with IRROPS on any airlines except WN and B6. Weather is a problem for all airlines, but B6 has the worst of both worlds: a hub-based network and no interlining. You need to ditch delay-prone hubs or interline or both to have decent IRROPS capability.

To be fair, if you book award travel within 14 days of the date you're booking for, there's a $25 fee per person.

Thanks. I thought that was the case, but didn't know for sure so I didn't want to give misinformation.

And no, I haven't had recent experience with IRROPS on any airlines except WN and B6. Weather is a problem for all airlines, but B6 has the worst of both worlds: a hub-based network and no interlining. You need to ditch delay-prone hubs or interline or both to have decent IRROPS capability.

How does WN do with IRROPS? Same as B6 or better? I rarely fly WN, just random hops here and there, usually early in the morning so I get the first leg.

How does WN do with IRROPS? Same as B6 or better? I rarely fly WN, just random hops here and there, usually early in the morning so I get the first leg.

WN seems to do very well with IRROPS. First, the traffic doesn't funnel through delay-prone hubs. Second, all aircraft (and therefore crews) are interchangeable. So you find a lightly loaded flight and cancel it to free that aircraft and crew. Ideally, you pick a flight serving a high-frequency city pair so that those passengers are delayed only an hour or less.

But if you are on the last flight of the day, the lack of interlining can bite you. Don't book the last flight of the day from a city with bad weather.

To be fair, if you book award travel within 14 days of the date you're booking for, there's a $25 fee per person.

:confused::confused::confused:

I just did a dummy booking to see what you're talking about - JFK-JAX-JFK on 8/26-8/27 (well within a 14-day window from now) and see the following fare:

Going Out

Airfare / Adult $ 0.00 USD
Taxes / Adult ( details) $ 2.50 USD
Subtotal / $ 2.50 USD
X 1 Adult $ 2.50 USD

Coming Back

Airfare / Adult $ 0.00 USD
Taxes / Adult ( details) $ 2.50 USD
Subtotal / $ 2.50 USD
X 1 Adult $ 2.50 USD

Total Cost of Flight $ 5.00 USD


Where's the $25 fee?

Where's the $25 fee?

Hmm... perhaps I'm mistaken. I remember having seen this mentioned before during the last round of fee changes; around the time the rebook to lower fare fee was removed. It may not have become actual policy; if so, I apologize for being mistaken.

WN seems to do very well with IRROPS. First, the traffic doesn't funnel through delay-prone hubs. Second, all aircraft (and therefore crews) are interchangeable. So you find a lightly loaded flight and cancel it to free that aircraft and crew. Ideally, you pick a flight serving a high-frequency city pair so that those passengers are delayed only an hour or less.

Another thing that WN can and will do is to take a broken plane and repair it while shifting the equipment for each subsequent flight up one slot at a station with multiple frequencies. So if they have departures at 12, 1, 2, 3 and 4 and the plane for the noon flight breaks, they can move the others all up a bit and have short delays for all of them and hopefully get the plane fixed by 5pm when it is needed. Sure, all the flights might take a small delay in the meantime, but the flights mostly get where they are going.

And the broader variety of routings that they offer allows passengers to be given multiple opportunities to get out and where they're going.

Perhaps B6 is the wrong size for the number of flights they have . Hopefully the cutbacks they are doing will allow for better recovery during IIROPS . Another idea would be to interline with some of the smaller airliners like
Frontier or Airtran, so they can help each other out when their is bad weather in their hubs.

Just curious as to why? By your account the only real issue I can see on your short-haul is the pax you were seated next to.

You were able to fix the TrueBlue credit, right?

I'm sure I could fix the credit-not bothered at this point as it just turned me off. Yes it's not JetBlue's fault they have skanky passengers but I've never experienced that before with any other carrier so I guess part of me thinks -Why travel with them when it's never happened with other carriers-stick to them. Like I said it's unfair of me but gut reaction often is :)

Yes it's not JetBlue's fault they have skanky passengers but I've never experienced that before with any other carrier so I guess part of me thinks -Why travel with them when it's never happened with other carriers-stick to them. Like I said it's unfair of me but gut reaction often is :)

Price = "very nice"

Oh, for the days when the price of air travel mitigated the unpleasantness of mixing with the rifraff.(sipping martini)

No big deal. I just found the contradiction amusing.

Thanks CAPHIS. At least I can vent on this site. I totally understand the business side of the airlines, I'm just pissed that out of all the stories I hear where people are getting free vouchers as compensation for problems experienced, mine was not good enough. I'm done venting and will move on. Thanks again!!! Best of luck in everyones travel experiences!

I totally understand the business side of the airlines, I'm just pissed that out of all the stories I hear where people are getting free vouchers as compensation for problems experienced, mine was not good enough. I'm done venting and will move on.

The compensation you hear about likely comes from other airlines. There are relatively few reports of B6 doing much in the way of compensation. (They did give me a $100 of a future flight for canceling my BOS-DEN, though, and I didn't even ask for it.)

Honestly, the best thing you can gain from all of this is experience. If you really feel strongly about how JetBlue treated you, keep that in mind the next time you buy a ticket and vote with your dollars!!! If UA or AA is $20 more, give considerable thought to flying them, as you might get a better experience. And don't hesitate to tell your story to anyone who will listen, because quite frankly, it's time the average pax starts to hear these accounts.

The compensation you hear about likely comes from other airlines. There are relatively few reports of B6 doing much in the way of compensation. (They did give me a $100 of a future flight for canceling my BOS-DEN, though, and I didn't even ask for it.)

Honestly, the best thing you can gain from all of this is experience. If you really feel strongly about how JetBlue treated you, keep that in mind the next time you buy a ticket and vote with your dollars!!! If UA or AA is $20 more, give considerable thought to flying them, as you might get a better experience. And don't hesitate to tell your story to anyone who will listen, because quite frankly, it's time the average pax starts to hear these accounts.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7501286&ft=1&f=1006

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/26/AR2007022601263.html

http://www.travelindustryreview.com/news/6718

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2007/02/27/jetblue_halts_flights_to_avoid_deja_vu/

You contradict yourself in your post. While fair, it is hard to believe that there are relatively few instances where Jetblue has applied their Bill Of Rights or some other compensation(when compared to OA's) to their customers when you yourself recieved $100 that you didn't even ask for.

In the end, it is really amazing that one can travel halfway around the world in less than a day and it is not unbelievable that there might be complications with these plans. I agree with the second paragraph of your post. I think a healthy heaping of all the experiences out there is neccesary to appreciate the good and bad of each airline and be able to speak about them with some authority.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7501286&ft=1&f=1006

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/26/AR2007022601263.html

http://www.travelindustryreview.com/news/6718

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2007/02/27/jetblue_halts_flights_to_avoid_deja_vu/

You contradict yourself in your post. While fair, it is hard to believe that there are relatively few instances where Jetblue has applied their Bill Of Rights or some other compensation(when compared to OA's) to their customers when you yourself recieved $100 that you didn't even ask for.

In the end, it is really amazing that one can travel halfway around the world in less than a day and it is not unbelievable that there might be complications with these plans. I agree with the second paragraph of your post. I think a healthy heaping of all the experiences out there is neccesary to appreciate the good and bad of each airline and be able to speak about them with some authority.

Rather than contradicting myself, I would view it as presenting a somewhat unbiased view of the situation. I'm only saying that we see very few reports of compensation being offered by JetBlue here at FT, but that yes, I did receive it. I realize that unbiased posts don't occur much on the JetBlue forum, so you probably wouldn't recognize one when you saw it. Unlike most around here, I don't deliberately distort the facts -- I try to say it the way I see it.

As for flying half-way around the world in less than a day.... I'm confused. Last time I checked, JetBlue doesn't leave N. America. Intercontinental travel seems way beyond their capabilities right now.

Rather than contradicting myself, I would view it as presenting a somewhat unbiased view of the situation. I'm only saying that we see very few reports of compensation being offered by JetBlue here at FT, but that yes, I did receive it.

As with any business, words of complaint are heard tenfold over words of praise. JetBlue takes proactive steps to issue compensation due customers. As you experienced, a team reviews all flights eligible for mass compensation and issues accordingly. But one thing to remember about any company in any industry is that the internet is used far more often for complaints than for praise.

Last time I checked, JetBlue doesn't leave N. America. Intercontinental travel seems way beyond their capabilities right now.

You're right -- it's way beyond JetBlue's capabilities. One good reason being the range of the A320. :)

Service to Colombia, which would be the first non-North American destination, must begin by February 15, or be lost.

You contradict yourself in your post. While fair, it is hard to believe that there are relatively few instances where Jetblue has applied their Bill Of Rights or some other compensation(when compared to OA's) to their customers when you yourself recieved $100 that you didn't even ask for.


All those links are stories about the launching of the BoR program, not about how often it actually gets put into play. That B6 has a BoR is a great marketing bit, particularly when they can tout it to the public and still almost never have to actually pay out on it because most issues - including crew scheduling in many cases - are weather related.

As for unsolicited compensation, UA actually has a formal program as well that grants various credits based on a number of parameters, including status, distance/route flown and length of delay. On my last UA flight that had a problem I was given $150 and rerouted via an alternate city and arrived within an hour of my original schedule, albeit without time to go plane spotting at In-and-Out at LAX.

Rather than contradicting myself, I would view it as presenting a somewhat unbiased view of the situation. I'm only saying that we see very few reports of compensation being offered by JetBlue here at FT, but that yes, I did receive it. I realize that unbiased posts don't occur much on the JetBlue forum, so you probably wouldn't recognize one when you saw it. Unlike most around here, I don't deliberately distort the facts -- I try to say it the way I see it.

At (the very) least you qualified your view as "somewhat" unbiased.

Deliberately distorting the facts? Any facts to back that one up?

All those links are stories about the launching of the BoR program, not about how often it actually gets put into play. That B6 has a BoR is a great marketing bit, particularly when they can tout it to the public and still almost never have to actually pay out on it because most issues - including crew scheduling in many cases - are weather related.

The links run to stories that covered the rollout of BOR and the storms that followed it that winter where compensation was provided. Couldn't find any media reports after that time period. No way of telling if the lack of current reports is due to some lack of activity or the "un-newsworthyness" of it to the public as a whole. Given the guilty until proven innocent tone lately on this board I'll try some other avenue for information.

Given the guilty until proven innocent tone lately on this board I'll try some other avenue for information.

Can you blame us? Do you honestly think B6 should be getting the benefit of the doubt when it strands so many people routinely?

Can you blame us? Do you honestly think B6 should be getting the benefit of the doubt when it strands so many people routinely?

Yes.

Not sure what people being stranded has to do with a presumption of innocence as it relates to the Bill of Rights.

Not sure what people being stranded has to do with a presumption of innocence as it relates to the Bill of Rights.

I was referring to your comment about this board promoting a "guilty until proven innocent" ethic.

People tend to love JetBlue as long as the flights run on time. (What's not to like?)

The first or second time you face a multi-hour delay, you tend to lose that good feeling. It's only natural. Several on-time flights and you might be feeling good about JetBlue again.

My advice: Mentally prepare for the possibility of a multi-hour delay. Book times that give you some leeway. Bring something to keep busy with for several extra hours. In short, reduce your expectations for on-time performance. You'll be happier and have a better trip, whether you win or lose the delay lottery.

On the larger theme, I can't blame you as I am not in the blame game. Only noticing the change. I have visited other forums at FT and although those airlines have momentous issues currently the tone, however heated at times, doesn't come close to the special disdain that Jetblue engenders.

I get that reliability, both in the operation and the compensation plan when the operation fails, is important but to believe that a company is guilty until proven innocent you are required to view that company at the outset as dishonest and conniving. If that is your view, then why even care? Why even come into this thread? Why not just let the airline crumble around itself as you watch?

I've not noticed or been provided any evidence that Jetblue's BoR is a sham yet that is the underlying accusation that has seemed to be slipped, subtly or not, into discussion and the majority seem to have no problem with that assumption. Why is that? Because Jetblue strands its passengers on occasion? If that is your reasoning then I can't blame you for it, I can only question you.

And BTW, presumption of innocence is not a benefit but a right.

On the larger theme, I can't blame you as I am not in the blame game. Only noticing the change. I have visited other forums at FT and although those airlines have momentous issues currently the tone, however heated at times, doesn't come close to the special disdain that Jetblue engenders.

I get that reliability, both in the operation and the compensation plan when the operation fails, is important but to believe that a company is guilty until proven innocent you are required to view that company at the outset as dishonest and conniving. If that is your view, then why even care? Why even come into this thread? Why not just let the airline crumble around itself as you watch?

I've not noticed or been provided any evidence that Jetblue's BoR is a sham yet that is the underlying accusation that has seemed to be slipped, subtly or not, into discussion and the majority seem to have no problem with that assumption. Why is that? Because Jetblue strands its passengers on occasion? If that is your reasoning then I can't blame you for it, I can only question you.

And BTW, presumption of innocence is not a benefit but a right.

I understand that corporations are US citizens under law, but I think you're taking the whole presumption of innocence thing a bit too literally. What I'm merely implying is that when an airline screws over its customers time and time again, it is often hard to trust them in future interactions. That's all I'm getting at.

I would also argue that you're minimizing the damage B6 has done. JetBlue doesn't strand its passengers "on occasion"; it does it as a regular occurrence, as this forum is testament to.

The links run to stories that covered the rollout of BOR and the storms that followed it that winter where compensation was provided. Couldn't find any media reports after that time period. No way of telling if the lack of current reports is due to some lack of activity or the "un-newsworthyness" of it to the public as a whole. Given the guilty until proven innocent tone lately on this board I'll try some other avenue for information.

There won't be news articles about how much money B6 is spending on their BoR deal for two reasons. One, they aren't spending all that much since it rarely applies. Two, they don't want to publicize how much they are paying out because each payout necessarily means that they messed something up, and most companies I know don't advertise such events.

People tend to love JetBlue as long as the flights run on time. (What's not to like?) ... The first or second time you face a multi-hour delay, you tend to lose that good feeling. It's only natural.

My advice: Mentally prepare for the possibility of a multi-hour delay. Book times that give you some leeway. Bring something to keep busy with for several extra hours. In short, reduce your expectations for on-time performance. You'll be happier and have a better trip, whether you win or lose the delay lottery.

The above post is absolutely correct. You cannot bring an expectation of on-time performance to a JetBlue flight. You are unwise even to expect that you will get there the day you wanted to. JetBlue is a good choice only if it doesn't much matter when you get there -- ergo, no good for business travel; no good for tightly scheduled leisure weekends; etc.

What I'm merely implying is that when an airline screws over its customers time and time again, it is often hard to trust them in future interactions... JetBlue doesn't strand its passengers "on occasion"; it does it as a regular occurrence, as this forum is testament to. Correct. Stranding is part of the JetBlue experience. I don't hate JetBlue -- I love what they are trying to do -- but I do not think they are reliable, at ALL, and just as with PeoplExpress 25 years ago, the current size of the operation totally outstrips their logistic skills. That's where the anger comes up -- the massive gulf between the "happy jetting" rhetoric and the alleged "JetBlue experience," and the actual uncertainty, stress and misery of flying JetBlue. It's the usual schism between brand promise and service experience.

As my wife said yesterday as she came home from the airport 16 HOURS later than scheduled thanks to JetBlue operational problems: "Everyone I met was just as nice as they could be... and none of them had any idea what they were doing."

I understand that corporations are US citizens under law, but I think you're taking the whole presumption of innocence thing a bit too literally. What I'm merely implying is that when an airline screws over its customers time and time again, it is often hard to trust them in future interactions. That's all I'm getting at.

I would also argue that you're minimizing the damage B6 has done. JetBlue doesn't strand its passengers "on occasion"; it does it as a regular occurrence, as this forum is testament to.

True, this is not a court of law.

Trust is hard-won and easily lost. When it's lost, it colors people's views. I think we're in agreement.

As far as the frequency of strandings, I don't know. I'd like to see statistics. The severity(length) seems to be the larger issue, especially during peak travel.

There won't be news articles about how much money B6 is spending on their BoR deal for two reasons. One, they aren't spending all that much since it rarely applies. Two, they don't want to publicize how much they are paying out because each payout necessarily means that they messed something up, and most companies I know don't advertise such events.

Since you used UA as a reference earlier when does UA compensation apply? What are their standards like?

Should it not apply when weather holds up a flight at outbound airport #1 of the day but for some reason apply at outbound airport #5 of the day in which the flight is delayed because of that same weather earlier in the day?

I'm not sure what you expect. Regardless, you need to make some case (loaded gun may help) with any airline to get compensated for a weather delay.

As to your second point, it would be a total lose-lose. That being said, anyone have some numbers for us?:)

I'd like to see statistics. The severity(length) seems to be the larger issue, especially during peak travel.

Does anyone compile complete statistics on delay duration, as opposed to a mere count of <=15 minutes delay vs. >15 minutes delay? I would bet that JetBlue's delay statistics have a higher median and mean delay than any airline of its size. The route structure (congested hub) and tight scheduling virtually guarantee this. The E190s would have been a major help in moving growth away from JFK.

Can you blame us? Do you honestly think B6 should be getting the benefit of the doubt when it strands so many people routinely?

I'm sorry... what? Cite?

I have no idea what information or statistics you're basing this largely subjective statement on, but B6 does not now, nor has it ever, "routinely stranded" "so many people."

You may have your own opinions on B6 as a carrier, but if you're going to base those opinions on statements such as the one above, I'd ask that you back it up with some information or statistics. If it's just your own ill-formed opinion that B6 "strands so many people routinely" based on vendetta, grudge, or "well look at all the threads on this message board," that's fine -- was just wondering if in the mean time you could produce some kind of objective cite for the statement.

was just wondering if in the mean time you could produce some kind of objective cite for the statement.

I think that the main issue is that when flights start canceling it happens in droves. At the end of July there were a LOT of cancellations. Many cities were affected for consecutive days. No, this doesn't happen every week or even every month, but it was an operational meltdown that was much worse than most other carriers ever experience, and this was not the first time such a thing has happened to JetBlue.

Up-thread a bit it was mentioned in one of dietcoke's rants about the inability for the scheduling software to handle the volume of issues associated with the July issues, causing further delays as crew tried to figure out what is going on. Between that sort of thing, JetBlue not operating interline agreements they just cannot recover as well as other carriers, many routes operating infrequently and high load factors, the impact of even a single BOS-JFK flight cancellation can have an incredible ripple effect as folks try to get seats on other connections to where they are going.

The carrier isn't wholly unreliable, but they have issues just often enough to make counting on them to get you somewhere on time a risky bet.

The BTS has lots of stats available (http://www.transtats.bts.gov/OT_Delay/ot_delaycause1.asp?display=data&pn=1). Here are the YTD 2008 stats for JetBlue. Note that they are only compiled through June, so they don't include the fiasco from the end of July.

Jan Feb Mar Apr May June Total
Air Carrier Delay
Number of Delays 711 758 812 587 493 732 4,092
% of Total Operations 4.32% 4.74% 4.53% 3.42% 3.05% 4.43% 4.09%
Delayed Minutes 41,233 50,676 52,957 38,866 30,531 51,841 266,104
% of Total Operations 21.20% 15.96% 16.28% 16.03% 16.87% 13.91% 16.29%
Aircraft Arriving Late
Number of Delays 1,328 1,761 1,984 1,342 899 1,766 9,079
% of Total Operations 8.07% 11.02% 11.08% 7.83% 5.56% 10.68% 9.06%
Delayed Minutes 85,122 137,741 150,143 98,560 56,738 133,091 661,395
% of Total Operations 43.76% 43.39% 46.16% 40.64% 31.36% 35.72% 40.50%
Security Delay
Number of Delays 5 2 3 1 1 4 17
% of Total Operations 0.03% 0.01% 0.02% 0.01% 0.01% 0.02% 0.02%
Delayed Minutes 191 128 138 64 26 141 688
% of Total Operations 0.10% 0.04% 0.04% 0.03% 0.01% 0.04% 0.04%
National Aviation System Delay
Number of Delays 1,539 2,182 2,164 1,809 1,896 2,730 12,319
% of Total Operations 9.36% 13.65% 12.09% 10.55% 11.72% 16.52% 12.30%
Delayed Minutes 67,396 123,537 118,530 104,030 92,935 176,287 682,715
% of Total Operations 34.65% 38.92% 36.44% 42.90% 51.36% 47.31% 41.80%
Extreme Weather
Number of Delays 10 44 22 13 14 85 188
% of Total Operations 0.06% 0.27% 0.12% 0.08% 0.09% 0.52% 0.19%
Delayed Minutes 564 5,346 3,477 974 718 11,241 22,320
% of Total Operations 0.29% 1.68% 1.07% 0.40% 0.40% 3.02% 1.37%

Here are comparable numbers for all carriers over the same time period:
Jan Feb Mar Apr May June Total
Air Carrier Delay
Number of Delays 41,120 40,454 43,776 33,647 31,014 41,261 231,272
% of Total Operations 6.79% 7.11% 7.11% 5.63% 5.12% 6.78% 6.42%
Delayed Minutes (K) 2,355 2,398 2,527 1,926 1,722 2,482 13,413
% of Total Operations 28.16% 26.58% 28.57% 29.90% 27.72% 25.14% 27.51%
Aircraft Arriving Late
Number of Delays 50,930 55,427 54,629 38,945 38,732 53,922 292,585
% of Total Operations 8.41% 9.74% 8.87% 6.51% 6.39% 8.86% 8.12%
Delayed Minutes (K) 3,145 3,495 3,344 2,277 2,244 3,580 18,087
% of Total Operations 37.60% 38.74% 37.79% 35.34% 36.12% 36.27% 37.09%
Security Delay
Number of Delays 404 308 457 240 256 295 1,960
% of Total Operations 0.07% 0.05% 0.07% 0.04% 0.04% 0.05% 0.05%
Delayed Minutes (K) 12 11 15 7 9 10 67
% of Total Operations 0.15% 0.13% 0.17% 0.12% 0.16% 0.11% 0.14%
National Aviation System Delay
Number of Delays 50,995 53,265 52,762 46,027 46,888 61,858 311,795
% of Total Operations 8.42% 9.36% 8.56% 7.70% 7.73% 10.16% 8.65%
Delayed Minutes (K) 2,422 2,572 2,487 1,964 1,996 3,226 14,669
% of Total Operations 28.95% 28.52% 28.11% 30.48% 32.14% 32.69% 30.08%
Extreme Weather
Number of Delays 5,358 6,782 5,746 3,310 3,237 6,926 31,358
% of Total Operations 0.88% 1.19% 0.93% 0.55% 0.53% 1.14% 0.87%
Delayed Minutes (K) 429 544 474 268 240 571 2,529
% of Total Operations 5.14% 6.03% 5.36% 4.17% 3.86% 5.79% 5.19%Note: Delay minutes are in thousands in this table to keep alignment working.

Looking at the numbers a bit, JetBlue suffers less for weather and "air carrier delays" and more for ATC and delayed inbound aircraft.

Here are the definitions for those (like me) who didn't understand the difference between the various reasons:

Air Carrier: The cause of the cancellation or delay was due to circumstances within the airline's control (e.g. maintenance or crew problems, aircraft cleaning, baggage loading, fueling, etc.).
Extreme Weather: Significant meteorological conditions (actual or forecasted) that, in the judgment of the carrier, delays or prevents the operation of a flight such as tornado, blizzard or hurricane.
National Aviation System (NAS): Delays and cancellations attributable to the national aviation system that refer to a broad set of conditions, such as non-extreme weather conditions, airport operations, heavy traffic volume, and air traffic control.
Late-arriving aircraft: A previous flight with same aircraft arrived late, causing the present flight to depart late.


Based on these definitions it would seem that JetBlue is more aggressive in scheduling their turns and hasn't been able to actually keep to that schedule, resulting in delayed inbounds. Also interesting is that weather delays are responsible for only 3% of total delay minutes for the carrier, though WX+ATC is about 50% of total delay minutes. Also of note is that minutes can be split between categories for a single delayed flight.

I'll be interested to see the July numbers, but right now it would seem that the main issues JetBlue suffer from are ATC (hardly a surprise these days with JFK) and zero slack in their schedule to make up the time down the line. Because WN doesn't fly overnight they can almost always recover by the next morning. B6 cannot do that because they have the redeye flights. Their plan would be great in optimal conditions, but those just don't exist, and it doesn't seem that JetBlue is accounting for actual conditions in their scheduling and planning as much as they could. And their customers suffer for it.

Thanks for the data. What does "% of Total Operations" mean?

I'll be interested to see the July numbers, but right now it would seem that the main issues JetBlue suffer from are ATC (hardly a surprise these days with JFK) and zero slack in their schedule to make up the time down the line.

I would agree with you. ATC is a *huge* factor with B6 delays-- JFK is on a roll with the daily GDPs. This obviously trickles down into the rest of the day to cities experiencing no problems, as those aircraft are now late arrivals. The whole system suffers because of ATC initiatives, and quick turn schedules.

Thanks for the data. What does "% of Total Operations" mean?
My understanding is that it is the % of flights for the month affected (first number) and then the share of the total delay minutes (second number). The percentages for the first sets will add up to some number that will represent the percentage of flights delayed in any given month (~30% generally) and then the minutes percentages should add up to ~100%. Rounding and whatnot will make them not sum perfectly and that is noted on the BTS page that I lifted the stats from.

I would agree with you. ATC is a *huge* factor with B6 delays-- JFK is on a roll with the daily GDPs. This obviously trickles down into the rest of the day to cities experiencing no problems, as those aircraft are now late arrivals. The whole system suffers because of ATC initiatives, and quick turn schedules.

This begs the question: Should B6 adjust their schedules to be more realistic, or continue to suffer delays on more than 25% of their flights due to ATC issues and the follow-on effects? When the numbers are this consistently bad it is hard to justify keeping an unrealistic schedule on the books until the ATC issues get reduced on a regular basis. Then again, if JetBlue reduced JFK frequencies someone else would probably pick them up so it wouldn't really help all that much.

Looking at just JFK the numbers are somewhat more telling.
JetBlue:
#Ops %Ops Delayed Minutes % of Total
Delayed Minutes
On Time 2,980 67.13% N/A N/A
Air Carrier Delay 138 3.11% 12,540 12.44%
Weather Delay 14 0.31% 1,037 1.03%
ATC Delay 617 13.90% 51,240 50.84%
Security Delay 0 0.00% 11 0.01%
Aircraft Arriving Late 495 11.15% 35,957 35.68%
Cancelled 146 3.29% N/A N/A
Diverted 49 1.10% N/A N/A
Total Operations 4,439 100.00% 100,785 100.00%
All Carriers:
#Ops %Ops Delayed Minutes % of Total
Delayed Minutes
On Time 6,121 61.64% N/A N/A
Air Carrier Delay 561 5.65% 46,301 18.57%
Weather Delay 158 1.60% 11,636 4.67%
ATC Delay 1,768 17.81% 123,997 49.73%
Security Delay 7 0.07% 225 0.09%
Aircraft Arriving Late 887 8.94% 67,186 26.94%
Cancelled 332 3.34% N/A N/A
Diverted 95 0.96% N/A N/A
Total Operations 9,930 100.00% 249,345 100.00%

ATC and the associated trickle-down accounted for 86%+ of the JetBlue delays at JFK in June.

Also scary is the 3%+ cancellation number for JetBlue at JFK. That's ~5 flights daily. Jet blue was responsible for 40% of the JFK delay minutes in June, which is about on par with their 44% of JFK operations for the month. But they take 44% of the ATC delay minutes with only 34% of the ATC delays, meaning that theirs average longer than other carriers' delays. And they account for a whopping 56% of aircraft arriving late, again suggesting that they do not have the slack in their system to handle the delays that are typical of their operations.

I would agree with you. ATC is a *huge* factor with B6 delays-- JFK is on a roll with the daily GDPs. This obviously trickles down into the rest of the day to cities experiencing no problems, as those aircraft are now late arrivals. The whole system suffers because of ATC initiatives, and quick turn schedules.

I was making pretty much the same observation over two years ago (http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5798201).

We can infer that JetBlue has determined that less aggressive scheduling will not help matters enough to outweigh the revenue loss. This may, however, be yet another example of short-term corporate thinking, ignoring the long-term cost of customer defections. I hope not. I'd really like to see JetBlue stick around for a long, long time.

Edited to add: I made another post on this subject in April 2007 (http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7592205).

This begs the question: Should B6 adjust their schedules to be more realistic, or continue to suffer delays on more than 25% of their flights due to ATC issues and the follow-on effects?

It's an ongoing, daily battle. On one hand, if all goes according to plan, the aggressive scheduling works out to benefit everyone with on-time percentages and fleet utilization. On the other, all it takes is a JFK GDP (now a daily occurrence) to throw a wrench into the whole process. I think nsx has nailed current thinking, and less aggressive scheduling could help in terms of performance, but would prove to be a loss in terms of revenue.

I think right now, everyone's just sitting on their hands waiting to see what happens after the Labor Day period. Fingers crossed much?

It's an ongoing, daily battle. On one hand, if all goes according to plan, the aggressive scheduling works out to benefit everyone with on-time percentages and fleet utilization. On the other, all it takes is a JFK GDP (now a daily occurrence) to throw a wrench into the whole process. I think nsx has nailed current thinking, and less aggressive scheduling could help in terms of performance, but would prove to be a loss in terms of revenue.

I think right now, everyone's just sitting on their hands waiting to see what happens after the Labor Day period. Fingers crossed much?

JetBlue has been betting on consistent on-time performance from JFK for years now, and it just hasn't happened. The post-Labor Day schedule cuts might help, but that may just get JFK back to "ridiculous" from the current "ludicrous."

Something has to give eventually...

JetBlue has been betting on consistent on-time performance from JFK for years now, and it just hasn't happened. The post-Labor Day schedule cuts might help, but that may just get JFK back to "ridiculous" from the current "ludicrous."

Something has to give eventually...

Well, a good number of JFK's GDPs are directly or indirectly due to excessive volume. Coupled with a service reduction this year and the increased cost of travel, it stands to reason that it's highly unlikely things can get worse at JFK. I suppose it remains to be seen exactly how things will improve in the next few months, but I, for one, am confident.

I'm sorry... what? Cite?


Cite? How about this forum?


I have no idea what information or statistics you're basing this largely subjective statement on, but B6 does not now, nor has it ever, "routinely stranded" "so many people."


Baloney.

It stranded people for a week during the Valentine's Day massacre and it strands folks at JFK nearly every day.


You may have your own opinions on B6 as a carrier, but if you're going to base those opinions on statements such as the one above, I'd ask that you back it up with some information or statistics. If it's just your own ill-formed opinion that B6 "strands so many people routinely" based on vendetta, grudge, or "well look at all the threads on this message board," that's fine -- was just wondering if in the mean time you could produce some kind of objective cite for the statement.

I find the qualitative data present here is just fine, thanks. It more than backs up my opinion that B6 is not a reliable carrier.

Do you disagree? Is JetBlue reliable in your opinion?

I hate propaganda.

I have visited other forums at FT and although those airlines have momentous issues currently the tone, however heated at times, doesn't come close to the special disdain that Jetblue engenders.


You might also notice that the other forums here at FlyerTalk are not dominated by a few kool-aid drunken employees and a handful of apologetic loyalists. The disdain you refer to is often a backlash to the outlandish statements made by these loyalists.

You might also notice that the other forums here at FlyerTalk are not dominated by a few kool-aid drunken employees and a handful of apologetic loyalists. The disdain you refer to is often a backlash to the outlandish statements made by these loyalists.

I won't even comment. :rolleyes:

I won't even comment. :rolleyes:

Really? It seems like you just did. :D

Cite? How about this forum?

Because a forum populated by those only frustrated enough to post is as reliable as firm, quantitative statistics. The fact is, most flights operate without a problem at all. Yet you don't see a plethora of "great job!" posts, do you? That alone seems to be quite indicative of survey bias, judging from numbers alone.

Baloney.

It stranded people for a week during the Valentine's Day massacre and it strands folks at JFK nearly every day.

Routinely (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:routinely&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title)

And again, if you're going to make a quantitative claim about the number of people "stranded" at JFK "nearly every day," I'd like to see some numbers and citation. If you'd like to recant the statement and rephrase it as one based solely on your opinion based on posts made here, then that's fine.

Do you disagree? Is JetBlue reliable in your opinion?

Yes. I find JetBlue to be quite reliable to meet my travel needs, and apparently, millions of others find it reliable enough to continue doing business with, as well.

I hate propaganda.

As do I.

Because a forum populated by those only frustrated enough to post is as reliable as firm, quantitative statistics. The fact is, most flights operate without a problem at all. Yet you don't see a plethora of "great job!" posts, do you? That alone seems to be quite indicative of survey bias, judging from numbers alone.



Routinely (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:routinely&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title)

And again, if you're going to make a quantitative claim about the number of people "stranded" at JFK "nearly every day," I'd like to see some numbers and citation. If you'd like to recant the statement and rephrase it as one based solely on your opinion based on posts made here, then that's fine.



Yes. I find JetBlue to be quite reliable to meet my travel needs, and apparently, millions of others find it reliable enough to continue doing business with, as well.



As do I.

Do you work for B6?

Do you work for B6?

That's already been discussed here. But on the topic, what exactly does that have to do with the poster's very valid points? Please respond to those comments.

That's already been discussed here. But on the topic, what exactly does that have to do with the poster's very valid points? Please respond to those comments.

So is that a "yes"?

I find that employees of an airline are not always the most objective in making claims about reliability and such. @:-)

Do you disagree?

Because a forum populated by those only frustrated enough to post is as reliable as firm, quantitative statistics.


You seem to not frequent other forums on FT. In United, for example, the threads are not populated "by those only frustrated enough to post." Quite the opposite actually; there is a lot of diversity over there.

Here, however, the tenor is almost always negative. I don't think this is an accident. Do you?


The fact is, most flights operate without a problem at all.


Obviously. And that is why people say JetBlue is a great airline, when the weather is nice.

What separates airlines is what happens when things go wrong. This is where B6 fails miserably relative to its competition.


Yet you don't see a plethora of "great job!" posts, do you? That alone seems to be quite indicative of survey bias, judging from numbers alone.


Could be. Or maybe it is indicative that B6 hasn't been doing a great job. @:-)



And again, if you're going to make a quantitative claim about the number of people "stranded" at JFK "nearly every day," I'd like to see some numbers and citation. If you'd like to recant the statement and rephrase it as one based solely on your opinion based on posts made here, then that's fine.


When did I ever make a quantitative claim?


Yes. I find JetBlue to be quite reliable to meet my travel needs, and apparently, millions of others find it reliable enough to continue doing business with, as well.


Just because millions of people fly the airline doesn't mean, relative to its peers, that it is reliable. @:-)

So is that a "yes"?

I find that employees of an airline are not always the most objective in making claims about reliability and such. @:-)

Do you disagree?

I do disagree - and strongly so. We're not denying the fact that JetBlue has operational issues right now. We're just pointing out that it is not as severe as you make it seem to be, and that we're certainly not alone when compared to the operational reliability of other airlines. You're making a claim that is not backed up by evidence.

I do disagree - and strongly so. We're not denying the fact that JetBlue has operational issues right now. We're just pointing out that it is not as severe as you make it seem to be, and that we're certainly not alone when compared to the operational reliability of other airlines. You're making a claim that is not backed up by evidence.

Evidence? How much more evidence do you need? You're posting in a thread entitled "WHO ELSE HATES JETBLUE"? What do you think is the cause of this vitriol? Jealousy?

The bottom line here is that JetBlue, relative to its competition, is not reliable. If you need to be somewhere on a given day, you are better off flying Southwest, United, American, whoever. Do you honestly disagree with that?

Since the UA forum was brought up, that post about scrapping meals in coach on transoceanic flights seems to be getting a lot of attention.

Since the UA forum was brought up, that post about scrapping meals in coach on transoceanic flights seems to be getting a lot of attention.

Of course it is! Why shouldn't it?

But is every thread negative in UA? Heck, every thread isn't even negative in US!

C'mon dude. Admit the fact that this airline has got some serious issues and those are reflected on FT. Why can't you just admit it?

Evidence? How much more evidence do you need? You're posting in a thread entitled "WHO ELSE HATES JETBLUE"? What do you think is the cause of this vitriol? Jealousy?

The bottom line here is that JetBlue, relative to its competition, is not reliable. If you need to be somewhere on a given day, you are better off flying Southwest, United, American, whoever. Do you honestly disagree with that?

You cannot be serious - or maybe you are?

You're suggesting that the title of this thred that is YEARS OLD is somewhat of an official rating of JetBlue. Sure FlyerTalk is a great community, but it is nowhere near an official source to judge how good or bad an airline is. This forum represents but a TINY percentage of the traveling public. Take a look at JD Power, Conde Nast, etc. JetBlue is not voted in the top spots year after year by luck. And guess what...on-time performance is known to be the FIRST priority in such polls; above legroom, above IFE, above perks, etc.

Also, it's threads like these that try and diminish the brand image of a wonderful, innovative company. Think about it - customers rant about the bad experiences, while only mentioning the great ones once in a blue moon. This goes for any company in any industry - especially the airlines.

Oh, and I find it amusing how you constantly pat yourself on the back with those "great idea" icons.
@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)

Of course it is! Why shouldn't it?

But is every thread negative in UA? Heck, every thread isn't even negative in US!

C'mon dude. Admit the fact that this airline has got some serious issues and those are reflected on FT. Why can't you just admit it?

WHERE DID I NOT ADMIT THE FACT THAT JETBLUE HAS OPERATIONAL ISSUES? I am only backing up a great company with an amazing brand and pointing out to the FT community that a lot of the things you mention are not as severe as you make them seem to be, especially when compared to the rest of the industry.

You're suggesting that the title of this thred that is YEARS OLD is somewhat of an official rating of JetBlue. Sure FlyerTalk is a great community, but it is nowhere near an official source to judge how good or bad an airline is. This forum represents but a TINY percentage of the traveling public. Take a look at JD Power, Conde Nast, etc. JetBlue is not voted in the top spots year after year by luck. And guess what...on-time performance is known to be the FIRST priority in such polls; above legroom, above IFE, above perks, etc.

Also, it's threads like these that try and diminish the brand image of a wonderful, innovative company. Think about it - customers rant about the bad experiences, while only mentioning the great ones once in a blue moon. This goes for any company in any industry - especially the airlines.


You don't spend enough time on other forums because your claims simply are untrue. The negative attitudes in this forum far outweigh any other airline forum on FT, with perhaps the exception of US. It's funny.. travelers in other forums have nice things to say about their airlines every once in awhile. Here that is most often voiced by the employees, not the travelers. @:-)

The extent to which one thinks that JetBlue is a "wonderful, innovative company" probably correlates highly with how often one is stranded by said airline. @:-)

WHERE DID I NOT ADMIT THE FACT THAT JETBLUE HAS OPERATIONAL ISSUES? I am only backing up a great company with an amazing brand and pointing out to the FT community that a lot of the things you mention are not as severe as you make them seem to be, especially when compared to the rest of the industry.

I'm not making anything severe, it is the posters in this forum that make them severe with their experiences. Are you saying that they're overreacting? When your flight gets canceled and JetBlue tells you to pound sand for 3 days while you wait for the next available flight.. are they overreacting?

And guess what...on-time performance is known to be the FIRST priority in such polls; above legroom, above IFE, above perks, etc.

Really? Looking at the JDPower (http://www.jdpower.com/travel/ratings/airline-ratings/low-cost/sortcolumn-0/ascending/page-1#page-anchor) poll I see many metrics, none of which include on-time performance. There is Reservations/Schedule, Check-in, Interior, Boarding / Deplaning / Baggage, Flight Crew, In-flight Services, Cost & Fees and Overall, and I am not sure if Overall is an average/resultant number or is something that the person fills out in the survey.

Conde Nast Traveler (http://www.concierge.com/cntraveler/articles/11452) magazine uses the following metrics as best as I can tell:
Seat Comfort/Legroom, In-flight Amenities/Technology, Food/Bev, Cabin Service, Airport Lounges and FF program.

So, where is the operational reliability being counted in those ratings??

Really? Looking at the JDPower (http://www.jdpower.com/travel/ratings/airline-ratings/low-cost/sortcolumn-0/ascending/page-1#page-anchor) poll I see many metrics, none of which include on-time performance. There is Reservations/Schedule, Check-in, Interior, Boarding / Deplaning / Baggage, Flight Crew, In-flight Services, Cost & Fees and Overall, and I am not sure if Overall is an average/resultant number or is something that the person fills out in the survey.

Conde Nast Traveler (http://www.concierge.com/cntraveler/articles/11452) magazine uses the following metrics as best as I can tell:
Seat Comfort/Legroom, In-flight Amenities/Technology, Food/Bev, Cabin Service, Airport Lounges and FF program.

So, where is the operational reliability being counted in those ratings??

I said 'such' polls. I never gave specifics as to what metrics were used in these polls. But, if you'd like to get technical, the DOT which officially measures on time performance, seems to get a VERY LOW number of complaints per 100,000 customers for JetBlue compared to other airlines.

I said 'such' polls. I never gave specifics

:confused:

You listed Conde Naste and JD Power and then referred to them as "such." @:-)

Here are a few of the numerous negative threads on the first page of AA's forum. Shall I continue with other airlines in alphabetical order? Funny (or should I say sad?) thing is a lot of these are posted by elites.

AA
How can this happen? Bags make it onto plane, passengers denied boarding.

American canceling award and not replacing

Wow some fares for next year are cheap but most are rediculously expensive
Baggage pilfering from AA flights in SJU

5+ Hour Delay on JFK-LAX 8:30PM Flight 185 - Any Recourse?

Guide to, and listing of, compensation (consolidated)

Domestic Confirmed Same Day Travel "Standby" fee increase $50 (consolidated)

Heh, that's funny. The difference between AA and B6, however, is that where AA has good and bad threads about it, B6 seems to have a disproportionate share of negative.

Must be a coincidence of course. JetBlue is the best airline there is! Yay!!

Heh, that's funny. The difference between AA and B6, however, is that where AA has good and bad threads about it, B6 seems to have a disproportionate share of negative.
Only since you've been trolling around here...


Must be a coincidence of course. JetBlue is the best airline there is! Yay!!
Immaturity and jealousy at it's best.

I said 'such' polls. I never gave specifics as to what metrics were used in these polls.
C'mon. I'm willing to give credit where it is due, but you blatantly made a claim that those polls were going to support your position when they actually do not. It happens. I'm just trying to provide objective data to the discussion.

But, if you'd like to get technical, the DOT which officially measures on time performance, seems to get a VERY LOW number of complaints per 100,000 customers for JetBlue compared to other airlines.

The delays section of the report (most current PDF version here (http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/reports/2008/august/200808atcr.pdf)) includes delay data up through June '08 is simply a repackaging of the BTS data that I cited above. That covers the part where there are "official measurements."

There is also a section where they account for passenger complaints across a number of categories, but I would think that you'd want to err on the side of using verifiable data rather than passenger opinions. And JetBlue is proportionally consistent to the rest of the industry in terms of complaints about operational issues, which is to say that 33% of their complaints in June '08 were about delays/misconnects/cancellations and the industry as a whole was at 31.5% for the same period. Also there was a grand total of 763 complaints filed to the DoT for the month of June (only 12 for JetBlue). I think that depending on any sample size that small to provide an accurate snapshot of an industry that moves millions of people a day is a questionable exercise in statistics.

Only since you've been trolling around here...



Trolling?

No, you see, JetBlue left my family stranded on that fateful Valentine's "week" and since then I haven't been a huge fan.

But hey, I thought, we'll give them another shot. And guess what happened? Canceled flight. Couldn't rebook until 3 days later.

But you know, things happen, we'll try it one more time. AUS-BOS, 7 hour delay. I canceled my ticket and flew United instead, connecting in Chicago and got home 2 hours earlier than I would have on B6.

So trolling doesn't really fit me well. Rather, I have serious concerns about this airline and I would rather not have other people get screwed like I did.

FT is an information service. I'm here to provide the truth. They certainly won't get it from the employees and such posting here.

Trolling?

No, you see, JetBlue left my family stranded on that fateful Valentine's "week" and since then I haven't been a huge fan.

But hey, I thought, we'll give them another shot. And guess what happened? Canceled flight. Couldn't rebook until 3 days later.

But you know, things happen, we'll try it one more time. AUS-BOS, 7 hour delay. I canceled my ticket and flew United instead, connecting in Chicago and got home 2 hours earlier than I would have on B6.

So trolling doesn't really fit me well. Rather, I have serious concerns about this airline and I would rather not have other people get screwed like I did.

FT is an information service. I'm here to provide the truth. They certainly won't get it from the employees and such posting here.

Oh, now I see! Since one guy and his family got 'screwed' three times, that means that TENS OF MILLIONS of other people get screwed on an annual basis. That also means that ALL future JetBlue customers will get screwed as well. As a matter of fact, JetBlue is the only airline that this can happen with.

@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)

Yeah, that makes sense.

Oh, now I see! Since one guy and his family got 'screwed' three times, that means that TENS OF MILLIONS of other people get screwed on an annual basis. That also means that ALL future JetBlue customers will get screwed as well. As a matter of fact, JetBlue is the only airline that this can happen with.

@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)@:-)

Yeah, that makes sense.

We'll let the audience make of this what they will.

We'll let the audience make of this what they will.

What audience? Why don't YOU respond to that? I'm defending a great company. I am sorry JetBlue disappointed you 3 times. That does not mean that others, as you suggest, will also get 'screwed.' I (and many others) have been screwed by other airlines (and other companies) many more than 3 times.

What audience? Why don't YOU respond to that? I'm defending a great company. I am sorry JetBlue disappointed you 3 times. That does not mean that others, as you suggest, will also get 'screwed.' I (and many others) have been screwed by other airlines (and other companies) many more than 3 times.

The question is whether or not JetBlue is reliable relative to its peers. I maintain that it is not. You maintain that it is?

If you needed to get from point A to point B on a given day at a given time, say for a funeral, would you take JetBlue or United?

Depends on the airport I was leaving from . If it was ORD or IAD , I would take UA since they have a hub and there should be backup planes in case my current flight has mechanical trouble. If it was JFK , I would use B6 . If the drive was short enough I would consider using my car (much more reliable then flying these days). From BOS I may drive to PVD and use WN . I would avoid going thru NYC at all costs . A couple of months ago I flew from JFK to
SFO on VX and we had to taxi for a hour (this was on a nice sunny day) before we could take off (due to volume).

I find that employees of an airline are not always the most objective in making claims about reliability and such. @:-)

Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree. Airline employees have access to accurate data, and they see many more flights than customers do.

That said, there is a subtle but very real issue of different perceptions. First, delayed flights are more memorable than on-time flights. That's human nature. Second, if you weight performance by the number of hours you spend, the delayed flights take on extra weight.

This second point is analogous to queues for service. If you ask a post office clerk what the lines are like today, you will get an answer based on the whole day, equally weighted for all hours. If you ask a customer, you will get an answer based on what that customer encountered. If you ask all customers, you will get a composite answer weighted by the distribution of their arrivals over the day. This distribution is not uniform.

Therefore you will have two different answers, both correct from their point of view. Customers will see longer average wait times because they tend to show up at peak times. Clerks see plenty of off-peak times when the wait is short but there are many fewer customers.

So it's not a simple matter of objective statistics.

What separates airlines is what happens when things go wrong. This is where B6 fails miserably relative to its competition.

And as "things going wrong" is entirely subjective, we obviously have two very different definitions. I don't see things going wrong very often at all, which was the contention of the original post -- that B6 routinely strands its customers. It does not -- that much is a quantitative fact.

Could be. Or maybe it is indicative that B6 hasn't been doing a great job. @:-)

Because, again, that determination is made solely from the opinions and threads posted here, on this internet forum.

When did I ever make a quantitative claim?

Can you blame us? Do you honestly think B6 should be getting the benefit of the doubt when it strands so many people routinely?

Quantitative claim being "strands so many people routinely."

Just because millions of people fly the airline doesn't mean, relative to its peers, that it is reliable. @:-)

It means that millions of people find it reliable enough to continue using over and over.

Do you work for B6?

That's neither here nor there, and completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand--all of my statements in this discussion have been made as a customer of JetBlue. If you doubt my ability to remain objective, then we can just agree to disagree and move on.

I find that employees of an airline are not always the most objective in making claims about reliability and such.

Do you disagree?

I find that well educated, sensible people are able to make objective observations from the point of view of a customer, even if they are employed by the business. By contrast, I find that, often, those who have a personal, negative experience with a business are often bias to ignoring actual, factual, statistical data regarding overall performance. Do you disagree?

Agreed.

The difference for FT though - it is mostly a consumers board not employee board. So if employees try to present themselves as customers, even if they are occasionally, there is a conflict of interest there.

Not sure about JBLU, but some legacies have rules on whether/how employees post in public forum.

I think that the minimum that a poster can do is either proactively disclose, or disclose upon the question. Remember that not long ago the CEO of Fresh Foods got into trouble by mis-representing himself as an average stockholder, which he was, but he was also an insider.



Yes, I disagree. Airline employees have access to accurate data, and they see many more flights than customers do.

That said, there is a subtle but very real issue of different perceptions. First, delayed flights are more memorable than on-time flights. That's human nature. Second, if you weight performance by the number of hours you spend, the delayed flights take on extra weight.

This second point is analogous to queues for service. If you ask a post office clerk what the lines are like today, you will get an answer based on the whole day, equally weighted for all hours. If you ask a customer, you will get an answer based on what that customer encountered. If you ask all customers, you will get a composite answer weighted by the distribution of their arrivals over the day. This distribution is not uniform.

Therefore you will have two different answers, both correct from their point of view. Customers will see longer average wait times because they tend to show up at peak times. Clerks see plenty of off-peak times when the wait is short but there are many fewer customers.

So it's not a simple matter of objective statistics.

I noticed that all of the B6 employee posts in this forum have the following.

> The above does not represent actual views and/or opinions of JetBlue Airways


I suspect that Jetblue may require it when posting on a forum . I have seen this in 3 or 4 different employees . FYI I do not work for Jetblue.

The Southwest forum has a handful of employees who regularly post. Readers value their insights and their ability to convey our message into the company. I believe that one employee adds more value for the readers than ten bashers. When FT loses an airline employee from a forum, it hurts.

Do the employees of Southwest and JetBlue have a more favorable view of their respective companies than employees of legacy airlines? Of course. Why wouldn't they? They haven't gone though endless layoffs, pay cuts, and benefit cuts. Enthusiasm does not imply lack of objectivity, especially when there are sound reasons for that enthusiasm. The same goes for criticism.

That would go back to my original statement of discolosure. It is 100% beneficial that employees come out and express their opinions, as employee. But, if an employee put on the hat of the customer of its own employer, and argue with other non-employee customer - there is a problem and will not be seen as objective, for good reasons.




The Southwest forum has a handful of employees who regularly post. Readers value their insights and their ability to convey our message into the company. I believe that one employee adds more value for the readers than ten bashers. When FT loses an airline employee from a forum, it hurts.

Do the employees of Southwest and JetBlue have a more favorable view of their respective companies than employees of legacy airlines? Of course. Why wouldn't they? They haven't gone though endless layoffs, pay cuts, and benefit cuts. Enthusiasm does not imply lack of objectivity, especially when there are sound reasons for that enthusiasm. The same goes for criticism.

That would go back to my original statement of discolosure. It is 100% beneficial that employees come out and express their opinions, as employee. But, if an employee put on the hat of the customer of its own employer, and argue with other non-employee customer - there is a problem and will not be seen as objective, for good reasons.

Are you suggesting that an employee can not separate their personal feelings as a frequent customer from those held as an employee? In my experience, as I said, sensible, educated folk are able to separate themselves as customer and as employee and provide views from both ends, depending on the context.

I'm not sure your doctrine applies in this instance, though. An objective, quantifiable claim was made ("B6 [...] strands so many people routinely"). Clarification was sought, with a request for citation. None was provided, and a personal opinion was sought. If the suggestion you're making is that an employee cannot objectively provide his or her own opinion, then I'm going to have to disagree with you. If that wasn't your suggestion, then I apologize for misunderstanding. nsx was spot on, IMO, when he said:

Enthusiasm does not imply lack of objectivity, especially when there are sound reasons for that enthusiasm. The same goes for criticism.

Do you work for B6?Interesting responses.

Me thinks that, of course, you don't have to answer this question.

But if you don't answer, then that kinda tells the reader that the answer's yes. :)

And as "things going wrong" is entirely subjective, we obviously have two very different definitions.


Yeah, sorry I wasn't more clear. My definition of "things going wrong" include canceling a flight and telling you that your next available flight is two days from now.


I don't see things going wrong very often at all


I would suggest, respectfully, that you haven't been paying attention.



Quantitative claim being "strands so many people routinely."


That isn't necessarily a quantitative claim; it can be a qualitative claim as well.



It means that millions of people find it reliable enough to continue using over and over.


Is that really the test of reliability? If a million people fly it?



That's neither here nor there, and completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand--all of my statements in this discussion have been made as a customer of JetBlue. If you doubt my ability to remain objective, then we can just agree to disagree and move on.


All I know is that this forum has a ton of folks who seem to work for B6. This, relative to other forums, is disproportionate to the actual flyers. Do you disagree with this?

And, further, yes, I question your ability, as an employee (if you are one of course) to be objective about the airline. Obviously you're in a subjective position.



I find that well educated, sensible people are able to make objective observations from the point of view of a customer, even if they are employed by the business. By contrast, I find that, often, those who have a personal, negative experience with a business are often bias to ignoring actual, factual, statistical data regarding overall performance. Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree 100%. I don't think employees can be objective about the airline they work for.

We had a UA employee over in the UA forum as the biggest cheerleader you could imagine. And then he got laid off. Boy, did the tune change after that!

All I know is that this forum has a ton of folks who seem to work for B6. This, relative to other forums, is disproportionate to the actual flyers.

I believe that the B6 forum has a greater percentage of employee participants than any other forum on FT. And you think that's a bad thing? It's a badge of honor, and a tribute to the quality of the company. Employee members enrich the forum, providing valuable perspective from a side that we customers do not see.

I'm pretty easygoing on moderation, but one thing I will not tolerate is driving away employee participants. They are too valuable to our readers. Please everyone, treat them with the respect they deserve for sharing their time with us here.

I believe that the B6 forum has a greater percentage of employee participants than any other forum on FT. And you think that's a bad thing?

No one said it is a bad thing. I think it is a fine thing. But it would be a better thing if said employees would admit maybe they're not the most objective ones here.

Edited to add: I firmly believe also that B6 employees should not be arguing with customers about what constitutes a problem and what does not. This is when we get into the tricky territory of B6 employees here.

I firmly believe also that B6 employees should not be arguing with customers about what constitutes a problem and what does not.

I fully agree. Employees are generally highly deferential to customers in their posts, as they should be.

Yeah, sorry I wasn't more clear. My definition of "things going wrong" include canceling a flight and telling you that your next available flight is two days from now.

And you believe this to be a common, everyday occurrence?

I would suggest, respectfully, that you haven't been paying attention.

It would seem, instead, that you are the one who hasn't been paying attention, if you do believe this to be a common occurrence.

That isn't necessarily a quantitative claim; it can be a qualitative claim as well.

Oh, for goodness sake... it's clearly quantitative in nature, and even if you wanted to make it subjective, I'd still disagree.

Is that really the test of reliability? If a million people fly it?

If millions of people continue to fly, time and time again, then they clearly find it reliable enough to meet their needs. QED.

All I know is that this forum has a ton of folks who seem to work for B6. This, relative to other forums, is disproportionate to the actual flyers. Do you disagree with this?

Don't know, I clearly don't pay that much attention.

And, further, yes, I question your ability, as an employee (if you are one of course) to be objective about the airline. Obviously you're in a subjective position.

Yes, I disagree 100%. I don't think employees can be objective about the airline they work for.

Then as I said, I see no further point in discussing this with you. I'd remind you, though, that it's quite easy to be objective, regardless of one's position as employee or customer, when an industry such as an airline keeps good numbers to indicate just how many people it's "routinely stranding."

No one said it is a bad thing. I think it is a fine thing. But it would be a better thing if said employees would admit maybe they're not the most objective ones here.

Or maybe they are. Or maybe you're not being objective at all? You've admitted to having a few negative experiences with B6 in the past; out of thousands and thousands of flights, none of which you've been a party to. Instead of checking numbers to substantiate your claims, you've instead decided to challenge the objectivity of others, rather than consider that you may be holding bias, as well. I applaud your ability to judge people's discretion, though, having an internet message board as your only tool available to do so.

And you believe this to be a common, everyday occurrence?


Judging by the posts in this forum, I would say yes, it is a common occurrence. Everyday? No, it doesn't rain everyday. When it does, however, you can count on JetBlue being messed up.



It would seem, instead, that you are the one who hasn't been paying attention, if you do believe this to be a common occurrence.


Please read the title of this thread.



Oh, for goodness sake... it's clearly quantitative in nature, and even if you wanted to make it subjective, I'd still disagree.


You need to look up qualitative.



If millions of people continue to fly, time and time again, then they clearly find it reliable enough to meet their needs. QED.


What an insane statement, IMHO.



Don't know, I clearly don't pay that much attention.


Actually I think in this instance it is motivated observation that is doing the work here.



Then as I said, I see no further point in discussing this with you. I'd remind you, though, that it's quite easy to be objective, regardless of one's position as employee or customer, when an industry such as an airline keeps good numbers to indicate just how many people it's "routinely stranding."


Shrug, I don't think you can be objective as an employee of this airline. You disagree, that's fine.

But can you answer me this? Why are so many JetBlue employees defensive about their airline?



Or maybe they are. Or maybe you're not being objective at all? You've admitted to having a few negative experiences with B6 in the past; out of thousands and thousands of flights, none of which you've been a party to. Instead of checking numbers to substantiate your claims, you've instead decided to challenge the objectivity of others, rather than consider that you may be holding bias, as well.

I fly over 125 segments a year on a variety of airlines. I have a good sense of many carriers. JetBlue is absolutely on the bottom of the list in terms of reliability. And, I bet, if you surveyed the regular travelers in this forum, most would agree.

Sorry, but it's true. In an objective analysis JetBlue needs to get a lot better when it comes to IROPS. Other JetBlue employees here have admitted that. Why can't you?

Judging by the posts in this forum, I would say yes, it is a common occurrence. Everyday? No, it doesn't rain everyday. When it does, however, you can count on JetBlue being messed up.

Again, you're using poor survey methodology if you're sampling based solely on posts here. You may have a point if everyone who flew on JetBlue posted here, but by far, that's not the case. Your sample size is too low, and there's no random sample involved whatsoever.

You need to look up qualitative.

And you need to understand that your initial claim was of a quantitative nature.

What an insane statement, IMHO.

That millions find the airline reliable enough to meet their needs time and time again? Ok.

Actually I think in this instance it is motivated observation that is doing the work here.

Actually, I was being facetious given your earlier suggestion that I'm not paying attention.

But can you answer me this? Why are so many JetBlue employees defensive about their airline?

In my experience, that's not the case. You'll find many JetBlue employees who are unhappy with the airline; they just aren't posting about it here. Likewise, you'll also find plenty of JetBlue employees who are quite happy with the airline. This is another fine example of your methodology being flawed--you suggest that the plethora of poor experiences posted here is typical of JetBlue operations, and you also find that most JetBlue employees are defensive about the airline. Neither are the case--both are disproportionate to the sample you'd find on FlyerTalk.

JetBlue is absolutely on the bottom of the list in terms of reliability. And, I bet, if you surveyed the regular travelers in this forum, most would agree.

I think you're missing the point. That may be the case, indeed, but I bet if you surveyed the regular travelers on the airline, and not just restricted to this one corner of the internet, most would disagree. Again, the overwhelming majority of flights operate with no problems whatsoever. That doesn't make news, though.

Sorry, but it's true. In an objective analysis JetBlue needs to get a lot better when it comes to IROPS. Other JetBlue employees here have admitted that. Why can't you?

I never suggested that JetBlue doesn't have problems. I've made two points thoughout this discussion:

- Your original claim was false--JetBlue does not routinely strand people anywhere. It's not a common occurrence in the least.

- JetBlue is reliable enough to meet my travel needs. That may not be the case for you, and it's understandable.

But don't suggest that I have claimed JetBlue is perfect or that it does not have a long way to go with overcoming IROPs. It does. When things go wrong, they go wrong. Recovery is sometimes slow, but getting better. Reliability is entirely subjective to the needs and education of the traveler, and objectively, JetBlue has some work to do when it comes to IROPs. Objectively, though, it's not commonplace at all for JetBlue to "routinely strand people," either.

Again, you're using poor survey methodology i


Again, I'm making qualitative statements, not quantitative statistical ones. You need to understand the difference. It is really imporatnt.



That millions find the airline reliable enough to meet their needs time and time again? Ok.


No, that this statement above is an indication that the airline is reliable. That's silly.



In my experience, that's not the case. You'll find many JetBlue employees who are unhappy with the airline; they just aren't posting about it here. Likewise, you'll also find plenty of JetBlue employees who are quite happy with the airline. This is another fine example of your methodology being flawed--you suggest that the plethora of poor experiences posted here is typical of JetBlue operations, and you also find that most JetBlue employees are defensive about the airline. Neither are the case--both are disproportionate to the sample you'd find on FlyerTalk.


OK then why is the sample of JetBlue so highly defensive relative to other airlines on FT?



- Your original claim was false--JetBlue does not routinely strand people anywhere. It's not a common occurrence in the least.


You need to define common and routine. I would argue that you're off base here. But let's hear your definitions.


- JetBlue is reliable enough to meet my travel needs. That may not be the case for you, and it's understandable.


How often do you fly?

It definitely does not meet my needs.



But don't suggest that I have claimed JetBlue is perfect or that it does not have a long way to go with overcoming IROPs. It does. When things go wrong, they go wrong. Recovery is sometimes slow, but getting better. Reliability is entirely subjective to the needs and education of the traveler, and objectively, JetBlue has some work to do when it comes to IROPs. Objectively, though, it's not commonplace at all for JetBlue to "routinely strand people," either.

Good, we're making progress.

Now, would you say that relative to other airlines JetBlue is better/equal/worse when it comes to IROPs?

After discussing this thread with nsx we have decided that this thread is going to remain closed. Appearantly a warning post is not enough to cool things off. Sorry folks but this is where this thread is stopping.