TalkBoard Topics - Lifetime??? Bans?

So I notice in http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum20/HTML/004851.html that the lifetime ban on Cameraguy has been lifted.

Personally, I'm glad. I know that CG crossed the line several times, but having spent some time with him, I find him to be a rightous dude and so am glad to see him back.

I'm also glad that El Presidente seems to have had a hand in getting him back:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cigarman:
FEAR NOT... I had a hand in the return of our beloved Camera Guy. There will be no "O" in the CO forum.</font>

Of course, it is the second sentence of this quote that leaves me perplexed.

CG and Ozstamps recieved the EXACT SAME email from Randy that said "I am taking an unheralded move to suspend your
privileges to post on FlyerTalk permanently."

Now, I am no fan of many of Ozstamps' shenanigans. To the contrary, my first interaction with him was a long, interesting but ulitmately frustrating dialogue about the history of the Australia (on which I STILL say the Dutch set foot first http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif).

But my question is this: Why has Camera Guy been parolled but not Ozstamps?

Here are my guesses:

Randy has decided that CGs sins were less heinous then Ozs.

or

Cigarman intervened with Randy on CG's behalf and used whatever influence he has with Randy to get CG back but keep Oz out.

or

It was just totally arbitrary.

or, and this is what I suspect we are most likely to hear (and quite frankly would hope to hear):

It's my board and I run it the way I choose.

Again, it'd be nice to know where lines are and what the rules are in a more specific way, but I'm the one who has counseled Randy to become more of a dictator and so will now live the with concequences of his decision to do so http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif.

[edited to correct Freudian slip]

[This message has been edited by kokonutz (edited 04-03-2002).]

Gotta bring some of 'em back for those driven away by inequity! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Dorian

Didn't the Dutch buy Australia for $24 and a Quantas schedule signed by Rainman?

didnt Oz "violate" his ban a couple of times..giving him in effect 3 lifetime bans as opposed to CG's 1?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by missydarlin:
didnt Oz "violate" his ban a couple of times..giving him in effect 3 lifetime bans as opposed to CG's 1? </font>

Violations are rarely publicized, so it is impossible to get an accurate count.

There are bigger issues in this event than just the return of a banned member.

On March 6th, Cigarman posted in regards to the GLBT forum:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">If I wanted to stop the GLTF, I could simply have delayed a vote, as I call the votes. I, instead, knew it was an important issue to many. Thus, I called the vote the first day I could as president. Anyway, enjoy the new forums. Cigarman </font>

Then there was the infamous insight into how he contributes to a discussion regarding a selection process for moderators:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I would disagree with Kokonuts. He has exibited severly bad judgment in regards to his personal life at FT functions. It appears he has a MAJOR alcohol problem. I like xxxx xxxx. But, it would have to be the correct forum, due to his young age, he sometimes is not the most level headed. He also needs to concentrate on his school work, so he doesn't flunk out</font>

Today he writes in response to the lifting of CameraGuy's Ban:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">FEAR NOT ... I had a hand in the return of our beloved Camera Guy. There will be no "O" in the CO forum. </font>

I don't know about the rest of you, but the arrogance of these statements is unbelievable and unacceptable.

My concern is NOT about whether Camera Guy's ban should have been lifted. That's Randy's decision. But I do find it appalling that Cigarman is taking credit for reversing the ban of the one who happened to be his friend.? Even more disconcerting is his "assurance" that a similar reversal will not be forthcoming for the other previous member simultaneously handed a lifetime ban in that dark period of FT.

Cigarman's bravado is legendary stuff here. And if it were only a case of meaningless chest-thumping, self-aggrandizing behavior, I would accept it as the annoying background noise I believe it to be. My concern is that, based on the example the threads above provide, he is buying his own marketing and believes he is truly crafting the policy and direction of FlyerTalk. There are new members arriving here daily who should not be mislead about this.

The only expressed role of TalkBoard leadership is that of procedural traffic cop. But Cigarman seems to believe he has been endowed with some kind of real power. If the power of the TalkBoard Presidency has changed since I was there, and if Cigarman does, in fact, have the power to shape the major decisions of FlyerTalk, I want to know that, because I have no interest in supporting his regime. But I don't believe for a minute that this is the case.

This behavior is an abuse of a relatively meaningless position. And it's an insult to what is a well-meaning and selfless group effort on the part of the other TalkBoard members.

I know that publicly addressing punitive measures is not Randy's style. (I also know that Randy is currently in China, so we won't have this immediately addressed by him.) So if he wants to slap Cigarman's hand in the background, that's his prerogative. But I do feel strongly that the at-large members of FlyerTalk merit public confirmation that Cigarman is NOT as power-laden as he would have us believe and is NOT running FlyerTalk.

Edited to correct UBB code errors.

[This message has been edited by svpii (edited 04-04-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by svpii:
I don't know about the rest of you, but the arrogance of these statements is unbelievable and unacceptable.
</font>

I agree. It is also important to keep in mind this quote from Randy:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
From all else that i've seen, you're really only as good on FlyerTalk as your last post.
</font>

So when are the next elections?

svpii...

VERY well put.

Dorian

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by svpii:


I know that publicly addressing punitive measures is not Randy's style.

</font>

Pam, I hate to quote and somehow get you into the middle of something you are not responsible for, but I must correct you on your above statement.

Randy did publicly announce that I had been suspended from the boards, his post as TravelAssist was clear and could not have been read any other way.

Furthermore, not only was my 'punishment' announced publicly (although Randy did also email me privately about it), but it was handed out for reasons that I -to this day- do not understand. I flamed nobody, I merely stated facts about the non-presence of another member of this community. The fact that those posts were labeled " a rumor " by some is puzzling to me. Just because the community member in question was not on the boards at that time to confirm what was being said does not mean that what I (and others) where writing was malicious, or disrespectful, or untrue. All I did was be real about a fact, and I guess not being in Wonderland and just acting like all is well in FT Paradise got me into hot water and awarded Gaucho100K a one week return trip to Bannedsilvania.

In addition, when I (and many others that participate on travel & mileage boards outside of this one) where insulted by another member of this board, no action was taken. This offending member has been posting away freely since, and thinks that he has exculpated himself and taken the high ground by merely posting and emailing me a half hearted apology –but- at the same time not admitting to his lack of tact and utmost rudeness. So then, I am compelled to ask... Why does there seem to be a double standard on FlyerTalk?

To return on topic, it now appears that some of those banned are allowed back, while others are not. Is this a prerogative of those that run these boards? Certainly. Does that sound equitable? Each of us should decide that.

Also, I get the impression that Cigarman is currently the victim of “political fallout”. I also think that the allegations of him wanting to take over FT are blown out of proportion. There is clearly an underlying issue with people that don’t want Cigar where he is (its simply a personal thing) and that’s the reason why people keep on bringing skeletons out of the closet. The great paradox is that while Pam is up-front, clear, and open about what she thinks, others instead resort to a cloak & dagger off board methodology behind peoples backs that I have a problem with.

As long as we get personal and not factual on the boards, there will be trouble... unless we want a Community, since if that’s the case we have to get personal… but wait!! Then we need a clear set of rules that apply to all, or..?

Regardless, its stuff like the straight shooting we have from Pam above that we need on this board. It will be the first step in GETTING REAL about whats going on in this place. While I don’t agree with Pam on many of the things she states in her above post, I still applaud her for showing us the way on how we will (if that’s what we want) build a Community. I try to do my part by agreeing to disagree in a civil manner.

In any event, please refer to my profile to see what my plan B is... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

------------------
Gaucho100K

[edited for UBB code error]

[This message has been edited by Gaucho100K (edited 04-04-2002).]

Who flies to "Bannedsilvania" Gaucho? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Quite possibly Tarom? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Seriously, I have been thinking about this a lot--about what I love about FlyerTalk, what I don't like and the things that got me addicted here in the first place and the things that now make me hesitant to visit and post.

When I first stumbled upon the board I was delighted to find that FlyerTalk was a wonderful, joyous, and spontaneous place, populated by some very, very bright, sophisticated and often hilarious people of apparent goodwill. I was very attracted to the people and the spirit of the board (as much as the information) and am thrilled to say that some of those early (and also some later) posters have become very good friends who I sincerely hope will last the rest of my life.

Over time, FlyerTalk got bigger and bigger and things began to change. Obviously there was a need for some controls, i.e., quickly deleting obscene posts in the manner that Craig did yesterday (thank you Craig), and the development of a method to control on-board bickering and personal attacks.

I honestly believe that all the bickering and resultant bannings could easily have been avoided had FlyerTalk established a truly effective Moderation Team consisting of very seasoned, objective, level-headed persons (such as Craig) who trust one another and confer with one another on a regular basis, to seek the most expedient and enabling possible solutions that they, as a team, can develop to resolve the problems that arise on board from time to time.

This is, IMHO, the only solution that will work.

Letting threads run out of control with insults and badgering and then suddenly closing them, is not an answer. Recondite closing of perfectly factual and civil threads that violate some unwritten and ambiguous standard is not an answer. Moving threads hither and yon, thereby eliminating the spontaneity and continuity of the board, is not an answer. Arbitrarily banning people who infringe upon some mysterious and inexplicable criterion is not the answer. Putting power (or the illusion of power) in the hands of anyone who would misuse it for self-aggrandizement is surely not an answer.

In my mind the issue is not the banning or reinstating of Camera Guy, Oz or anyone else. I happen to know both of these gentlemen, as well as a number of the other recently and not so recently banned. They are all people whom I have encountered both in person and in other cyber environments that do have careful moderation, and they all have exhibited not only goodness of heart, but also excellent on-line and real-life manners and deportment. This would lead me to believe that our FlyerTalk problems are more rooted in the personal insults and confrontational exchanges that are allowed from time to time to flourish here, rather than in insurmountable personality defects of the posters involved.

Again, I would strongly urge the immediate development of a Moderation Team that can and will work together to maintain peace and goodwill on the boards. I am also willing to put my money where my mouth is and serve on such a team, swearing to act objectively and even handedly in all situation.

The development of such a Moderation Team, coupled with a clear statement of rules which will be equitably applied to all are, I believe, necessities to the salvation of my wonderful cyber home, FlyerTalk.


[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 04-04-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Punki:
...the spontaneity and continuity of the board... </font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> The development of such a Moderation Team, coupled with a clear statement of rules which will be equitably applied to all are, I believe, necessities... </font>

Punki

First, I think that "spontaneity" and a "clear statement of rules...equitably applied" are likely self-contradictory concepts.

Second, one of those rules that our host is trying mightily to consistently implement is that posts shall be on-topic; but you have objected to that in several threads. It's not usually hard to read the description of a forum and then figure out if a post does or doesn't apply. Yes, there are exceptions, but not many. (And I would agree that Craig has done an excellent job trying to implement the rules and expectations about on-topic postings that Randy has already clearly laid out more than once). I would hope that if you were indeed a moderator that you would do the job asked by our host of helping keep posts on-topic?

Third, I agree with you (if this is what you meant) that Randy's "hiring" of moderators (not moderators who have been chewed over and discussed by the Talk Board) is essential and they should be given full power to apply the rules that make this a community rather than just a collection of folks.

Thank you, cblaisd, for your insight and perspective.

I see no contradiction whatsoever between "spontaneity" and a "clear statement of rules...equitably applied"

The FlyerTalk rules and guidelines prohibit:

Personal attacks
Offensive Language/Material
Condoning of Illegal Activity
Invasion of Privacy
Commercial Messages
Misuse of Copyrighted Material
Duplicate Posts

How, specifically, do you see that even-handed application of these rules would inhibit the posting spontaneity of a person of good manners and breeding?

You go on to write:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">"One...rule that our host is trying mightily to consistently implement is that posts shall be on-topic; but you have objected to that in several threads."</font>

I sincerely apologize for whatever poorly crafted posts I have made that would lead you to believe that I objected to posts being "on topic". That has most certainly never been my intent.

What I have said, and do believe, is that eliminating threads without locking and leaving the original thread title in place and without a url leading to the new placement is very disorienting and discouraging for both new and old posters alike, but I am especially concerned that this activity drives away new posters who become confused and just give up. This makes me very sad because, while I am a member of the FlyerTalk OldTimes, one of my greatest joys of FlyerTalk is the possibility of meeting a wonderful new friend every day.

I am very grateful that Craig takes the time and effort to lock the misposted threads and leave a clear trail to their new position. I would be totally comfortable handling misposted threads in this gracious and elucidating fashion. I would not, however, be comfortable simply erasing threads and moving them onto the Aisle of Misfit Threads, because I do not believe that so doing is in the best interest of encouraging people to become active members of the FlyerTalk community.

Beyond that the only feeling I have had and continue to have in on a related topic. I sincerely do believe either one of two things needs to happen to facilitate a smooth conversion to and understanding of the new FlyerTalk approach to forum positioning:

1. (Preferable approach) Place a General Travel Talk Forum at the top of the FlyerTalk Miles page, which is the page that most FlyerTalkers visit most often. This is the easy answer because it would be the natural place for all General Travel questions to go, thereby dramatically reducing the need for constant movement of thread from the Miles position to the Travel position. My theory is that more intuitive, natural processes will automatically be more successful than contrived or belabored processes.

2. If there is some reason that this (General Travel Forum on FT Miles) is an unworkable solution, i.e., the need to balance the number of posts between the Travel and Miles in response to some techincal necessity, it would seem logical that a clear explanation of those facts would not only encourage active participation, but might also prompt a plethora of highly workable suggestions and solutions from the cadre of high-tech geniuses who hang out hereabouts.

In your last paragraph you state:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Third, I agree with you (if this is what you meant) that Randy's "hiring" of moderators (not moderators who have been chewed over and discussed by the Talk Board).</font>

Now this is most interesting. Randy has in the past been very clear and explicit that the selection of Moderators did not fall within the scope of TalkBoard, but would instead be accomplished by him and his staff, selecting from a pool of volunteers. I have no idea why some TalkBoard members would have chosen to indulge in those inappropriate moderator discussions.

My only (and ongoing) goal is to enhance the FlyerTalk experience for first-time and seasoned posters alike.

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 04-04-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Punki:
Thank you, cblaisd, for your insight and perspective. </font>

You are welcome.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Punki:
I see no contradiction whatsoever between "spontaneity" and a "clear statement of rules...equitably applied"

The FlyerTalk rules and guidelines prohibit...

How, specifically, do you see that even-handed application of these rules would inhibit the posting spontaneity of a person of good manners and breeding? </font>

You missed my point, or I failed to make it well, or some combination of the two. I'll try again: My comment was directed at "spontaneity" as meaning the right or the ability to post a topic wherever one wants to regardless of our host's instructions or the forum's description. I was thinking of your contention in
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum95/HTML/001877.html :

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Punki:
..This is the first time that I have ever felt this type of hesitation and confusion on FT and it is not a great feeling. In the past I could have just posted it and waited for responses. Now it is really complicated....</font> (Italics added to highlight what I am referring to)

where you seem to be arguing that you should be able to post a topic wherever you think it should go and then wait for responses. Randy has clarified this for you and all of us, you'll recall, though, on the same thread noted above:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Randy Petersen:
We simply cannot allow members to post topics where ever they want and as the member of FlyerTalk who has served the longest as a member of this board, find it better to know what i will be seeing when i visit a described forum. </font>

That is what I had in mind by "spontanieity." A board where everyone gets to decide where their posts should go will quickly become useless, imo.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Punki:
I sincerely apologize for whatever poorly crafted posts I have made that would lead you to believe that I objected to posts being "on topic". That has most certainly never been my intent. </font>

Thank you for clarifying that.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Punki:
What I have said, and do believe, is that eliminating threads without locking and leaving the original thread title in place and without a url leading to the new placement is very disorienting... I am very grateful that Craig takes the time and effort to lock the misposted threads and leave a clear trail to their new position. I would be totally comfortable handling misposted threads in this gracious and elucidating fashion. I would not, however, be comfortable simply erasing threads and moving them onto the Aisle of Misfit Threads, because I do not believe that so doing is in the best interest of encouraging people to become active members of the FlyerTalk community. </font>

You and I agree that Craig's method is the preferred one. But I also recall Randy saying that that was not technically possible when moving threads from FT Miles to FT Travel;

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Randy Petersen:
..When we have to move threads from one forum to another (a different license and board), we have to post it as "TravelAssist" as the thread starter because we can only move threads with everything in place within a forum.... </font>

hence the workaround whose need should decrease over time as folks post their topics in the right forum in the first place. And, with all respect, what you are "comfortable" with is not necessarily the index of what will work best -- or certainly of what Randy has indicated will be the case.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Punki:
1. (Preferable approach) Place a General Travel Talk Forum at the top of the FlyerTalk Miles page, which is the page that most FlyerTalkers visit most often. </font>

Again, we have agreed on this several times. But Randy has made it clear that he is trying to change FT visitors' habits.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Punki:
My only (and ongoing) goal is to enhance the FlyerTalk experience for first-time and seasoned posters alike.</font>

I hope that is the goal of all of us indeed.

For, as you stated in the thread I referenced above:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Punki:
...we must make every effort to try to go with the flow and I am most certainly trying to understand the logic behind these new policies and work with them to the best of my ability. </font>

And since as hfly so rightly noted on the same thread,

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by hfly:
I also think that Randy has now made himself quite clear on this subject about 20 times now on various threads....</font>

therefore I think it behooves all of us to graciously follow Randy's wishes. Because he has made himself clear.

Chuck

(Edited to insert the quote from Randy -- which I found after originally not being able to -- concerning the technical problem of moving from FT Miles to FT Travel)

[This message has been edited by cblaisd (edited 04-04-2002).]

My concern is not with people who have habits that Randy is trying to change (for reasons I honestly still don't understand), but instead with the folks who become so confused by not being able to find their first or second FlyerTalk posts that they simply don't stick around long enough to develop habits, good or bad.

My confusion regarding my "misplaced post" which you reference above, was that my primary stated goal in making that post was to figure out how to get the most miles for the best price, getting where I needed to go. On that one I still don't understand where I should have posted it and it is obvious that Randy did not understand my question. I have quite frankly simply given up on getting help from FlyerTalk on that issue and have resorted to e-mail solicitation of ideas from friends.

People keep saying that Randy has made it perfectly clear why these new forum positioning policies have been adopted, but I honestly and truly must have missed these explanations. Would someone please be so kind as to direct me to the posts outlining the goals these new policies are trying to achieve and logic behind them.

Now I must apologize to svpii for going (and enticing cblaisd into going) off topic from her most excellent and well stated points. Mea culpa.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by kokonutz:
Again, it'd be nice to know where lines are and what the rules are in a more specific way. . .</font>

I had a limited (and not very effective) education in a religion in which certain things are forbidden. The "line" separating those things from what is permitted is not drawn next to the forbidden things, but some distance away, to provide a margin of safety, or a buffer zone.

If we are conducting ourselves as ladies and gentlemen (as most of us try to do, and would like to think that we do), we will never need to know where the lines are, because we will never come close to crossing over those lines. I hope and think that kokonutz was saying, "I want to know where the lines are so that I can stay far away from them," and not "I want to know where the lines are so that I can get as close to them as is permissible."

If we act as we would like others to act, then we don't need to know where the lines are.



------------------
"Yes, but at least mine will be found in a first class seat." -- Peattie and Taylor

LawLord , beautifully and succinctly put. I shall file that final line away for use on other occasions.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Punki:
My confusion regarding my "misplaced post" which you reference above, was that my primary stated goal in making that post was to figure out how to get the most miles for the best price, getting where I needed to go. On that one I still don't understand where I should have posted it and it is obvious that Randy did not understand my question. </font>

I would disagree. I think he understood it clearly and went out of his way to offer you assistance in both the thread and via private email that he cited.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Punki:
I have quite frankly simply given up on getting help from FlyerTalk on that issue and have resorted to e-mail solicitation of ideas from friends. </font>

Certainly your prerogative.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Punki:
People keep saying that Randy has made it perfectly clear why these new forum positioning policies have been adopted, but I honestly and truly must have missed these explanations. Would someone please be so kind as to direct me to the posts outlining the goals these new policies are trying to achieve and logic behind them.... </font>

Punki I would contend that you have subtly shifted the question here. You have contended that you don't understand the new "rules." But numerous folks have cited them for you: there is now to be an assertive effort to make sure that posts to a forum are on-topic as indicated in that forum's description. Or, once again, from Randy :

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Randy Petersen:
...the facts say a good topic will get attention if posted in the proper place...
We simply cannot allow members to post topics where ever they want and as the member of FlyerTalk who has served the longest as a member of this board, find it better to know what i will be seeing when i visit a described forum.

...Just one thing, don't suggest that any member can post anything they want anywhere they want. I argues with a member about that issue last week and in the end, I won, I blocked their ability to post on FlyerTalk. I was here before any of you, and really don't find it difficult at all to use common sense when posting. Simply - it's like posting apples to apples, not apples to oranges. </font> from
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum95/HTML/001877.html

But now insteading simply wanting to understand what the rules are, you want an explanation why Randy has stated these new (which were, of course, never really "new") rules, and of the policy goals and logic behind them.

It might be nice to get such, but it is certainly not owed to either one of us.

(Edited upon discovering a grammar mistake; the reader will doubtlessly find others....)

[This message has been edited by cblaisd (edited 04-04-2002).]

If Randy had truly understood (and admittedly it was probably my fault that he didn't because I failed to be perfectly clear) that my only intent was to get the most miles at the best price getting from point A to point B, why on earth would the post have been moved out of FT Miles? That is the point of my confusion.

I assure you that there is no "subtle shift". My concern is and always has been a very blatant worry that new posters who enter FT Miles and post to or respond to a post on the top thread will be discouraged and driven away by the fact that their post/reply disappears into thin air.

While I enjoy your most civil and interesting philosophical responses and our discussions, I do believe that most folks reading them may have a hard time discerning that we actually agree on all substantive issues. I would, therefore, suggest that we take our fascinating discussions off-line and return this thread to svpii's truly timely and important observations and questions.

Again, I apologize for getting off topic and for continuing to entice my highly intelligent friend cblaisd to discuss things that are truly off topic.

The heart of the matter as originally posted by svpii (Again, please forgive me for wandering off topic):

There are bigger issues in this event than just the return of a banned member.
On March 6th, Cigarman posted in regards to the GLBT forum:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">If I wanted to stop the GLTF, I could simply have delayed a vote, as I call the votes. I, instead, knew it was an important issue to many. Thus, I called the vote the first day I could as president. Anyway, enjoy the new forums. Cigarman </font>

Then there was the infamous insight into how he contributes to a discussion regarding a selection process for moderators:


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I would disagree with Kokonuts. He has exibited severly bad judgment in regards to his personal life at FT functions. It appears he has a MAJOR alcohol problem. I like xxxx xxxx. But, it would have to be the correct forum, due to his young age, he sometimes is not the most level headed. He also needs to concentrate on his school work, so he doesn't flunk out</font>

Today he writes in response to the lifting of CameraGuy's Ban:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">FEAR NOT ... I had a hand in the return of our beloved Camera Guy. There will be no "O" in the CO forum.</font>

I don't know about the rest of you, but the arrogance of these statements is unbelievable and unacceptable.

My concern is NOT about whether Camera Guy's ban should have been lifted. That's Randy's decision. But I do find it appalling that Cigarman is taking credit for reversing the ban of the one who happened to be his friend.? Even more disconcerting is his "assurance" that a similar reversal will not be forthcoming for the other previous member simultaneously handed a lifetime ban in that dark period of FT.

Cigarman's bravado is legendary stuff here. And if it were only a case of meaningless chest-thumping, self-aggrandizing behavior, I would accept it as the annoying background noise I believe it to be. My concern is that, based on the example the threads above provide, he is buying his own marketing and believes he is truly crafting the policy and direction of FlyerTalk. There are new members arriving here daily who should not be mislead about this.

The only expressed role of TalkBoard leadership is that of procedural traffic cop. But Cigarman seems to believe he has been endowed with some kind of real power. If the power of the TalkBoard Presidency has changed since I was there, and if Cigarman does, in fact, have the power to shape the major decisions of FlyerTalk, I want to know that, because I have no interest in supporting his regime. But I don't believe for a minute that this is the case.

This behavior is an abuse of a relatively meaningless position. And it's an insult to what is a well-meaning and selfless group effort on the part of the other TalkBoard members.

I know that publicly addressing punitive measures is not Randy's style. (I also know that Randy is currently in China, so we won't have this immediately addressed by him.) So if he wants to slap Cigarman's hand in the background, that's his prerogative. But I do feel strongly that the at-large members of FlyerTalk merit public confirmation that Cigarman is NOT as power-laden as he would have us believe and is NOT running FlyerTalk


[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 04-04-2002).]

see-gar who?

arturo fore El Presidente

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Loving, Caring, Honest, Intelligent, Empathetic, Creative, and Giving.

I'm sorry to butt in here....BUT... LIFETIME BAN is LIFETIME Ask Pete Rose

Ask Steve Howe.

What about Darryl Strawberry?? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Maybe it is related to the lifetime of the miles? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Perhaps it is more closely related to the "lifetime" of a particular FT handle?

Or am I taking this whole FT thing too, too seriously?

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"You are A Freak. You are A Freak. You are A Freak. You are A Freak."

-- Wingless, DUS-ORD...