Security Woes: Thomas Donohue, president of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, spoke out yesterday on behalf of all those who feel harassed and humiliated going through airport security in the United States, according to The Post's Don Phillips. Donohue told a group of aviation safety reporters that it's time for the country to consider whether airport security is endangering American principles and values. "We have to do it in a way that gives people their dignity back," he said. Asked what he would do, he said that security must become more practical, with good intelligence, good process management, professional profiling, checked luggage screening and perhaps spot checks of passengers. "Most of all, we've got to get away from the attitude that everyone who walks through is a bad person," he said.
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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry
CarmelGreg
Nov 18, 03, 1:57 pm
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by biggs:
[B]From Keith Alexander's Washingtonpost.com column:
he said that security must become more practical, with good intelligence, good process management, professional profiling, checked luggage screening and perhaps spot checks of passengers. "Most of all, we've got to get away from the attitude that everyone who walks through is a bad person," he said. [B]</font>
AMEN. The TSA must change or go away. Momentum is growing. People are realizing, slowly, how insulting the TSA really is to the intelligence of the flying public. Now if we can get the IRS to be more "Customer" focused. Wait... public pressure already caused changes with-in the IRS. Never mind.
Challenge the ridiculous policies the TSA promote as "in the name of safety". Refuse to remove your shoes until they sit you in a chair. Do not walk barefooted/sock footed. Request a pair of slippers or request to be seated/secondarily screened.
Lock your luggage then file for damages and make a complaint if they destroy it. There is no excuse for opening my bag without my being present. None. I don't want to hear about airport space issues, cost of equipment, $4 billion is more than enough.
Ask why you need to show your BP/ID again. Question every person except the 1st that requests your BP/ID. Roll your eyes when they feed you the company line "for your safety sir".
Privatize screening.
FliesWay2Much
Nov 18, 03, 3:58 pm
I'm not sure I like the "perhaps spot checks of passengers" part. Remember, the out-of-sight baggage checks, shoe fetish and other harassments were all preceded by the random gate rapes. I think back to all the times I was "chosen." Those confrontations between me and the symbols of my government -- yes, they were confrontations -- were events during which I surprised myself at how uncivil I could be towards a fellow human.
screenerx
Nov 18, 03, 6:00 pm
"Lock your luggage then file for damages and make a complaint if they destroy it. There is no excuse for opening my bag without my being present. None. I don't want to hear about airport space issues, cost of equipment, $4 billion is more than enough"
You know you never answer my question on the last post. What if they do page you and you don't respond to it? Should they open it or deny you boarding?
And If you don't want to be given facts then don't talk on the subject. Space issues are a big issue because the "AIRPORT" has to agree to let the space be given to TSA. 4$Billion is a lot of money but the Airport has to agree to give TSA the space. Don't believe it? TSA at my airport can't expand our checkpoint for another xray because the airport refuses to let us move a wall that was donated to it over a few feet and they refuse to do it either.
They also didn't want the CTX machines up stairs because the space was crammed as it was and it would cost a lot of money to expand the airport.
Im not trying to say i agree with TSA on everything. But I'm open minded enough and also in the job to know that there is a lot of forces at work. TSA at my airport wanted the machines upstairs and the airport said no because of lack of space. Whats your answer now Carmel?
CarmelGreg
Nov 18, 03, 8:56 pm
screenerx:
I don't believe you really want an answer from me. Besides do a search I'm sure you've read many, many suggestions. It seems you only like the banter and thus like some other TSA posters, attempt to goad anti-TSA posters into tit for tat. It amazes me how you can defend the TSA while bashing it? Here are a few of your recent "randomly selected" comments, located at this thread (don't worry I changed my gloves):
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by screenerx:
I have no clue how many airports you fly out of, I don't know all the treatment you've gotten at them but understand something, we're their doing a job that we have to for the time being. There are policies in place that you don't even know or only half understand. I understand some screeners might be on power trips, or it might be like with me, that we're just tired of TSA and how it expresses it's policy to the public and then how they give them to us.
I go in and do my job. My job is going to bring me a lot of grief and pressure through out the day. But I live with it. This would all go alway if TSA got a clue but they haven't.
TSA answer, is to treat everyone as a terrorists.
I understand some screeners might be on power trips, or it might be like with me, that we're just tired of TSA </font>
CATSA Screener
Nov 18, 03, 10:10 pm
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CarmelGreg:
It seems you only like the banter and thus like some other TSA posters, attempt to goad anti-TSA posters into tit for tat. It amazes me how you can defend the TSA while bashing it? </font>
The unofficial motto of rank and file NYPD officers is, "the Job sucks!" These cops obviously aren't against law-enforcement, but rather against their inept management and ridiculous rules and regulations (and a 2.5% wage decrease? What's that all about?). Same with screeners, most of us agree with the basic principles of screening but just happen to hate our management and many of the stupid rules and regulations they impose on us. Hence you get rather schizophrenic responses from many of us depending on the topic.
[This message has been edited by CATSA Screener (edited Nov 18, 2003).]
screenerx
Nov 18, 03, 10:30 pm
CarmelGreg,
I answer the questions I can, when asked. I asked a question that does with security in general, not TSA. If Congress, not TSA, wants on checked luggage checked, how do you propose you get people to come back down to the checkin counter if the CTX is located downstairs?
People don't always respond to the PA system, as I stated to you in some of my most recent post to you. My problem is, you keep coming post to post stating you hate that prodecure. Heck, I agreed that I hate it to but asked how you could fix it but you haven't given me a response that really helped.
"Lock your luggage then file for damages and make a complaint if they destroy it. There is no excuse for opening my bag without my being present. None. I don't want to hear about airport space issues, cost of equipment, $4 billion is more than enough"
I posted a easy answer to this. You seem to think that TSA controls the airport, why I don't know. The airport and city in charge still own that airport. TSA took over the security contracts for the checkpoints and then had CTX machines and some rooms added(at TSA expense) to some airports to check luggage.
That isn't supporting TSA, it's me giving the whole picture. You give half a glass and I just fill it to the top with more info.
And Yes, I would like a answer if at possible. I would like to hear it because I have a list of items I plan giving to my management when I go to leave. So if it's a good idea I would love to have it.
"It seems you only like the banter and thus like some other TSA posters, attempt to goad anti-TSA posters into tit for tat."
You decide to take a shot at me and make yourself out to be innocent but add this little comment at the end of your post.
"(don't worry I changed my gloves)"
You goad TSA Screeners into things just as some of the TSA Screeners goad you into things. I'll admit, I like to argue , and when you get passed bashing TSA for a few minutes, you give some great arguments.
Yes I have defended the TSA a few times. But my defense was that if Congress hadn't set up such timelines as they did maybe TSA might have had a chance to make something that, in my view, is a lot better security.
I posted in a post on the boards recently that exact thing something like:
"If TSA hadn't had such pressure placed on it, it might have deveopled a lot better security system but TSA didn't handle the pressure in my view and failed."
I support what TSA tried to sat out to do but I don't feel everyone in TSA has that same view anymore. I think TSA is no better then what private screeners were doing, other then maybe attitudes.
CarmelGreg
Nov 19, 03, 12:34 pm
It's very frustrating, isn't it, when you have no control. I understand. Every customer that gets in TSA line knows they have very little control. It can be a very intimidating process. Especially if you make it known you don't aggree/approve of whatever it is they are asking/demanding from you. Most folks that work for a living know their limits. Most folks have had some kind of idiotic management that won't listen and implement stupid policies. I don't claim to have all the answers but most of the "lines" the TSA posters insult us with are "if you only knew what I knew", "in the name of safety", "for YOUR safety". You said it your self "TSA answer, is to treat everyone as a terrorists."
The only suggestion I have to offer that hasn't been posted (to my knowledge):
How about some bomb sniffing dogs? I don't care how much they cost, $4 billion is enough to put dogs in airports with "no space" and machines in places w/space. Space is not my concern. That is the TSA's concern.
As for responding to pages. Not my problem. If you want to inspect my bag, do it in my presence or have a dog sniff it. It is well known that TSA machines have an extremely high false-positive ratio. I mentioned in other posts the only time I have been paged (to my knowledge), I responded to in 3 minutes (Juneau, AK very tiny airport) my $h*t was already splayed out. Nitro glycerin is what the machine detected. Please....
Your agency refuses to inspect baggage without the customer present, refuses to be held accountable for damaged bags or items, and still demand we leave our luggage unlocked. This is "un-american". This is "in the name of safety". I get the impression that most of the TSA thinks they are doing us favor. I remind you again that we are the customers. Your procedures are window dressing only. Private companies can do the same job, more efficiently, with less money AND they will certainly be held accountable (ie no renewal contact) and I believe they know we are their Customers.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
If TSA hadn't had such pressure placed on it, it might have deveopled a lot better security system but TSA didn't handle the pressure in my view and failed. </font>
The TSA has had 2 years! They are still confiscating pen knives, box cutters, and an occasional screw driver or two (liquid and mechanical). It is still failing and will continue to fail as long as they are unaccountable, have deep pockets, and don't remember "WE ARE THEIR CUSTOMERS". That really is the key. We are customers. TSA thinks we're terrorist.
BTW, I've mentioned it in another post but... I really hate having to stand in line listening to TSA bark the same instructions for 30 mins or more. I liked the procedure some FT TSA poster mentioned; speaking to the line in groups. Walk up, get attention of 5-10 people in line, say your spiel move down the line to the next group of folks. We are not in boot camp, we are Customers waiting to be screened. This can be accomplished even in Zig-Zag lines.
screenerx
Nov 19, 03, 7:51 pm
"BTW, I've mentioned it in another post but... I really hate having to stand in line listening to TSA bark the same instructions for 30 mins or more. I liked the procedure some FT TSA poster mentioned; speaking to the line in groups. Walk up, get attention of 5-10 people in line, say your spiel move down the line to the next group of folks. We are not in boot camp, we are Customers waiting to be screened. This can be accomplished even in Zig-Zag lines."
Carmel, I wish you could hear what a Supervisor and Screening Manager told me and a friend that used to do this, lets just say after these conversation, we werent allowed to do it again. We did it though, beore being told not to and we had fun, why, because we both like to interact with passengers.
And some of those lines like "I wish I could tell you more" or "if you only knew what I knew" isn't trying to be insulting. Its just that the info we know is SSI and we know the penalty involved in saying that stuff.
Dogs are a great idea for bombs, but we're not just looking for bombs in the bags. A bomb is a balant threat to the plane. But when you have guys putting propane tanks and such in their bags that are filled, then what do you propose, if the dog can't sniff it out.
Thats why I think the answer is to keep the bag locked and if you the passenger can't respond to a page, then the bag doesn't board the plane, until you see it checked. Is it a perfect answer, nope but with the coniditions in place, it's the only one I can think of.
And Nitro Glycerin is item found in explosives so i don't understand your problem with that.
If do go private you will still be customers. But the airline pays my pay check at that point. And your the customer of the airline and Im there to make sure your complying with the airlines policies on items allowed and not allowed on planes, but yes your still the customer.
One thing you may not like is that airlines loved us conisficating alchol in flask and such before TSA took a major hold on us.
"The only suggestion I have to offer that hasn't been posted (to my knowledge):
How about some bomb sniffing dogs? I don't care how much they cost, $4 billion is enough to put dogs in airports with "no space" and machines in places w/space. Space is not my concern. That is the TSA's concern."
Ok, now TSA is gone from all airports and hires private companies back into the place. All the equipment is located downstairs still but the airline doesn't enforce a unlock policy, but ask that you listen for pages and such if your needed.
You don't respond to the pages. What is the private company to do now. Airlines aren't going to dish out the money to get machines that have been placed downstairs out of public eye, back upstairs. They will still be hurting for one thing.
Private did a lot of things before 9/11 and directly after 9/11. But something that changed was Congress's mandate to have all checked bags checked. That means more staff then before for private company's. That means training, which cost money to, or they hire back TSA screeners of course.
All of these cost come out of airlines pockets now and that comes out of your pocket.
CarmelGreg
Nov 19, 03, 8:33 pm
Screenerx:
I can see how "interacting" can be fun. I do a lot of software workshops and enjoy being on stage too.
I used to find it fun interacting in airports too until the the shoe thing took off. Fortunately for me the first person I speak to is the check in counter. Then TSA. Otherwise I'd never get upgraded and get sandwiched in a middle seat or something cause of the sour look on my face.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
And some of those lines like "I wish I could tell you more" or "if you only knew what I knew" isn't trying to be insulting. Its just that the info we know is SSI and we know the penalty involved in saying that stuff. </font>
The reason it's insulting is because aviation security today in the USA is a joke. You can't really think the things TSA does or even "knows" are going to stop a determined terrorist. You can't. You just can't honestly believe this.
I will admit that I'm not in the know as you are (what your specifically searching for) however I think anything you are searching for in checked luggage, a dog could be trained for. Most certainly my shoes if the alarm does not sound.
On my outbound flights I need my luggage. I'm fortunate to use a small airport and they hand inspect luggage. So I'm present when they do this. With all the money TSA has already spent buying all the smoke and mirrors necessary to fool Grandma they could have come up with 10+ more pratical solutions to the baggage thing. And some sccountability. TSA cannot continue to be unaccountable.
Nitro is what the TSA agent said my bag tested positive for in Alaska.
WHEN it goes private it will still be subsidized (sp?) by the taxpayer. Even "managed" by the TSA. However, it won't be $4 billion dollars a whack. They will be paid by the flyer and perhaps the airline or airport. $20 bucks a passenger is what my guess will be for starters.
Alchol. Got no issues there. I can afford to get drunk at the bar if so desired.
screenerx
Nov 19, 03, 9:49 pm
From what we were told, if they do go private, the wages have to be kept the same and the benefits matched. That would cost a little more money then before.
Problem with Nitro is it a product used in a lot of items. Hand Lotions, explosives, heart meds, etc.. and yes we get a lot of alarms over it. I don't exaclty qualify that as a false alarm in my book, as it a compantent(sp?) of a explosive.
TSA might have 10+ pratical ways to make it easier but the airport has to agree with these and each individual airport is going to be different in that regard. Some airports don't like the idea of big machines located in their lobbies. Others don't have the space and even with TSA backing, aren't willing to expand on a airport. But yes I agree, TSA can't be unaccountable.
You can only train dogs to do so much. And even if TSA did get rid of it's unlock bag policy, people wouldn't be happy. Why? Because bags still have to be open, and even if TSA made it clear, no passengers, no bag gets openned, or you lose your job! People would still blame TSA for any damage done to their bag.
BTW, The upgrading of equipment and maintence should make a bit happy. My private company right after 9/11 had two older xray's and one barringer that ran about 30% of the time. The answer, dump as many bags as you can. Wasn't a TSA idea btw, was the airline and private companies idea.