Newsstand - Ban CA driver's licenses from being used to fly?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">COMING TO AMERICA
Group seeks to ban California license as ID
Argues illegal aliens could use them to board passenger planes</font>

This article (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34787)

They asked me when I renewed my license if I was a terrorist, and I said no, so they renewed it. So I don't know what the fuss is about -- a driver's license is ASSURANCE that someone isn't a terrorist, right? That's why they are so intent on seeing it before I fly http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Frickin' idiots. An ID does not mean jack @#$% as far as safety goes.

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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

Why do intelligent people continue to believe that an ID Card can protect us from acts like 9/11? It is a disgrace to those that died to continue this sham. Anyone can get a fake ID card, or even use their own ID to cause all kinds of destruction.

This is so foolish.

Actually, the goal is to prevent people from California from flying. The rest of the country is afraid of catching whatever it is with California residents that leads to things like electing Arnold as governor. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Why do intelligent people continue to believe that an ID Card can protect us from acts like 9/11?

Who said anything about intelligent?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Plato90s:
Actually, the goal is to prevent people from California from flying. The rest of the country is afraid of catching whatever it is with California residents that leads to things like electing Arnold as governor. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif</font>

At least Arnold has actually lived and worked for the past many years in the state he is Governor-elect of...unlike Mr. Romney.

Of course California is not the only state which will give driver's licenses to illegal immegrants.

Maybe Arnold will find a way to reverse it, but doubtful.

Some people will never learn anything because they understand everthing too soon.

Alexander Pope

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by freakflyer:
Of course California is not the only state which will give driver's licenses to illegal immegrants.

Maybe Arnold will find a way to reverse it, but doubtful.</font>

What other states do this?

This is a public safety issue, bigtime.

Allowing anyone of driving age to prove their ability and get a driver's license is in the interest of public safety.

Not giving people one because of something that has nothing to do with driving means they will drive anyway, unregulated and untested as to the rules of the road.

Blanket denial of driver's license to a certain group means they will fall outside the regulatory system entirely, and will be more likely to endanger others on the road.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by R&R:
Some people will never learn anything because they understand everthing too soon.

Alexander Pope</font>

"The only true wisdom consists of knowing that you know nothing."

Socrates (pronounced So-Krates for this occasion)


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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

14 other states allow it:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34640

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
Amid the outrage over California Gov. Gray Davis' decision to sign legislation allowing illegal aliens to obtain driver's licenses comes the stunning revelation by immigration experts that the Golden State is neither unique nor alone: 14 other states also allow illegal aliens to drive legally on their highways.

While many of those states – Alaska, Connecticut, Idaho, Louisiana, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Utah, Washington and West Virginia – have had such laws in place for some time, they have become increasingly scrutinized since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, say analysts with the Federation for American Immigration Reform.
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California allowed undocumented aliens to obtain drivers licenses until a few years ago when CA began requiring a SSN from applicants.

I'm all in favor of issuing drivers licenses to all who pass the test, regardless of their immigration status.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by FWAAA:
I'm all in favor of issuing drivers licenses to all who pass the test, regardless of their immigration status.</font>

So am I, as long as the DMV is allowed to pass that information (that the person is in the country illegally) to the proper authorities so that person can be detained and returned to their country.

Steve

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by sllevin:
So am I, as long as the DMV is allowed to pass that information (that the person is in the country illegally) to the proper authorities so that person can be detained and returned to their country.

Steve

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That defeats the purpose. Then illegals will not get a license and will drive without one. So what have you accomplished?

Driver's licenses are primarily proof that someone is capable of driving. Secondarily they are used as "proof of identity" of course. Neither of these is remotely related to one's immigration status.

We should just station a cop at each DMV and when an illegal comes to get a license, boom now we can catch them.

See its a plot to trick illegals into a false sense of reality.

Ok, seriously, why give them a license? Their going to drive anyway. The waits in the DMV's are long enough as is in California from what Ive heard.

Now if it required a license to start a car then we might be onto something.

Just imagine, you go into the DMV and there are also car insurance firms there. You pass your test and then go and talk to the firms about the perfect insurance for you.

Then after your set and done, you gt a ride over to the car dealer where you have that new car waiting to be programed with your license information, so you can slip your license into the start up slot and insert your keys and drive away.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by richard:
Driver's licenses are primarily proof that someone is capable of driving. Secondarily they are used as "proof of identity" of course. Neither of these is remotely related to one's immigration status.</font>

I see it as another schizophrenic example of a gov't which doesn't know what to do with illegal immigrants.

The DMV is a government service. Giving illegal aliens licenses is on the same order of enrolling illegal immigrants in public schools. The gov't knows perfectly well that these people are illegal, and then invents all kinds of specious reasoning like "they'll drive anyways" or "we care about children" to aid and abett the criminal act of violating immigration laws.

Because states like California really don't want to get rid of its illegal immigrants. They provide cheap labor which the local economy can use. They are the gardners, laborers, cooks, cleaners, etc... that citizens like to have around. So the gov't looks the other way.

But if it ever gets to the point where illegal immigrants outlive their usefulness, as the imported Chinese railroad workers did in the 19th century, watch how fast the Califonian citizens reverse their position.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Plato90s:
I see it as another schizophrenic example of a gov't which doesn't know what to do with illegal immigrants.

&lt;snip&gt;

Because states like California really don't want to get rid of its illegal immigrants. They provide cheap labor which the local economy can use. They are the gardners, laborers, cooks, cleaners, etc... that citizens like to have around. So the gov't looks the other way.

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There is that. But remember that a significant percentage of the electorate are of Latin American descent, and they sympathize with "illegals." Where I grew up, "illegals" were ubiquitous. With the amnesty, many becamse illegal. Many people I know who are "hispanic" came to the USA "illegally" and are now "legal".

They are a huge plus to the economy. The best and brightest take the risks to come into the USA. They work very hard and save a great deal of money to send back home, quite often. They are not often well educated but as they assimilate their children become educated and move up the socio economic ladder. It is a huge boon and we are very fortunate that this happens.

But sticking to the topic, I am sure that the terror people in WAshington DC stay up nights worrying about this sort of thing and they are very concerned that if it is easy to get a driver's license and be an illegal alien, somehow this is a route terrorists will take. It makes no sense except to someone whose mind is already terrorized and paralyzed with fear.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Plato90s:

But if it ever gets to the point where illegal immigrants outlive their usefulness, as the imported Chinese railroad workers did in the 19th century, watch how fast the Califonian citizens reverse their position.</font>

What makes you think this is the position of Californians ? It is clear to me that this type of position was clearly repudiated in our most recent election. The soon-to-be former Governor flip-flopped on this issue in an attempt to garner more votes.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Plato90s:
But if it ever gets to the point where illegal immigrants outlive their usefulness, as the imported Chinese railroad workers did in the 19th century, watch how fast the Califonian citizens reverse their position.</font>

I think if you were paying attention you would see this policy is hugely unpopular with the Californian majority! It was a vote grab, to gather support from the Latino community specifically.

[This message has been edited by elCheapoDeluxe (edited 10-12-2003).]

I love California. Only there can:

1. You be given a $500 fine the third time you are caught lighting up a cigarette in a bar, but only be fined $100 if you can prove it is marijuana.

2. Arnie be elected on an "anti big government" platform after having most of the Kennedy clan campaign for him.

3. Gov. Davis be shocked and dismayed to learn that Arnie groped some starlets 15 years ago but was thrilled to have Bill Clinton come to endorse him.

4. Driving licenses be issued to illegal immigrants on the grounds that "they will drive anyhow." Doesn't this also hold true for people with drunken driving records?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Dovster:

4. Driving licenses be issued to illegal immigrants on the grounds that "they will drive anyhow." Doesn't this also hold true for people with drunken driving records?


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Dovster, if a drunken driver has her license revoked, she is not supposed to drive. That is the theory anyway.

If a whole class of people are denied the ability to apply for a driver's license because of their immigration status, that has nothing to do with their endangering other drivers. So how is it comparable?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by richard:
Dovster, if a drunken driver has her license revoked, she is not supposed to drive. That is the theory anyway.

If a whole class of people are denied the ability to apply for a driver's license because of their immigration status, that has nothing to do with their endangering other drivers. So how is it comparable?

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If an immigrant has not been given permission to live in the US, then he is not supposed to be there. The theory is that the US -- rightly or wrongly -- feels that his presence is detrimental to the welfare of the nation.

This may be because of something unique to this person (he is a wanted axe murderer in his native land) or simply because the country feels it can not afford unlimited immigration.

By the simple act of being in the United States an illegal immigrant is, ipso facto, committing a criminal act. Any person who knowingly assists in another in the violation of the law becomes an accessory to the crime.

As Federal law always take precedence over state laws, a California statute which would facilitate an illegal immigrant's ability to live in the US would turn the entire state into a criminal organization.

I realize, of course, that in the wake of its unlimited spending in recent years, California has precious little left in the way of assets, but I don't think anyone would really like to have the Golden Gate Bridge confiscated by the Justice Department under the RICO Act.

So true about us. Isn't there a difference between legal and illegal immigrants? Aren't there those we permit to come over for the purpose of labor and then to return? (I don't agree with the Chinese comparision)

I use my license in other countries when I visit, why can't these people do the same? I believe Thailand accepts our licenses with the requirement of some type of temp permit.

What are the illegals going to provide in lieu of the SSN that I must give.

3. Gov. Davis be shocked and dismayed to learn that Arnie groped some starlets 15 years ago but was thrilled to have Bill Clinton come to endorse him.

4. Driving licenses be issued to illegal immigrants on the grounds that "they will drive anyhow." Doesn't this also hold true for people with drunken driving records?



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Can somebody explain why allowing ANYONE to get a drivers license has anything to do with airline safety?

Though y'all may have some valid arguments/points about who should or should not get them, what has this got to do with stopping terrorists or crazy people?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by NoStressHere:
Can somebody explain why allowing ANYONE to get a drivers license has anything to do with airline safety?

Though y'all may have some valid arguments/points about who should or should not get them, what has this got to do with stopping terrorists or crazy people?</font>

Exactly! Establishing identity has absolutely nothing to do with air safety.

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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by NoStressHere:
Can somebody explain why allowing ANYONE to get a drivers license has anything to do with airline safety?</font>Nada. It is to protect airline revenue by preventing the aftermarket exchange, barter, or sale of airline tickets - all under the guise of "security".

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Spiff:
Exactly! Establishing identity has absolutely nothing to do with air safety.</font>

Well, nothing except for the fact that a properly cross-correlated computer system would detect the presence of wanted terrorists using their real passports while boarding commerical flights.

What terrorist would be stupid enough to use their real names to buy tickets, you may ask?

The 9/11 hijackers did.

All that flak about the "failure of intelligence" focused on the fact that at least 3 of the 19 were on the State Department's watch list, but somehow skated through immigration. A properly linked DB with positive identification would allow us to track criminals, along with privacy-conscious citizens like Spiff.

Requiring ID for travel is to create a paper trail which can then be followed. Anonimity aids criminals, and any kind of paper trail hurts them.

Isn't all this driver license Hoopla and whoop-de-doo just a big smoke screen?

Isn't the real agenda to establish a NATIONAL FEDERAL IDENTITY CARD? (don't leave home with out it, in fact, expect your home door to be kicked in if you don't have it).

Maybe NAFTA could include the free movement of people between Canada, USA and Mexico - now there's an idea that was never really seriously considered!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by GetReal:
Isn't all this driver license Hoopla and whoop-de-doo just a big smoke screen?

Isn't the real agenda to establish a NATIONAL FEDERAL IDENTITY CARD? (don't leave home with out it, in fact, expect your home door to be kicked in if you don't have it).

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yes, through the back door -- federally mandated standards that turn the states into the Fed's good little issuers of what becomes a de facto national ID card.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by natalie:
I use my license in other countries when I visit, why can't these people do the same? I believe Thailand accepts our licenses with the requirement of some type of temp permit.

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Most countries accept most other countries drivers licenses for short visits. Once you are a resident it's normally supposed to be a different matter.

Also, I don't know if it has changed but it used to be that there were very few drivers with licenses in Mexico especially the rural areas.

I doubt that many illegal immigrants from Mexico come with Mexican Drivers licenses.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by jerry crump:
Most countries accept most other countries drivers licenses for short visits. Once you are a resident it's normally supposed to be a different matter.

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That's true -- once you become a LEGAL resident.

If I want to stay in Italy for more than 3 months, for example, I have to get a special visa -- which is quite difficult to obtain if I am not a student -- and register with the police.

If I fail to do this, I am not going to find a friend when I try to get a driver's license.

Nobody is suggesting that legal immigrants should not be given driving licenses but there is no reason for any state services, other than emergency ones, to be granted to people whose very presence puts them in violation of the law.

If the United States decides to allow a person to live in the country, then no state has the right to ban him. On the other hand, if a person is there illegally, no state has the right to facilitate him in his commission of that crime.

If an illegal immigrant does not have a driver's license, and is stopped by a police officer for a traffic violation, he will be arrested. It will soon become clear that he is in the country illegally and the police will have the obligation to hand him over to the federal authorities -- just as they would if he violated any other national law.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Dovster:
That's true -- once you become a LEGAL resident.

If I want to stay in Italy for more than 3 months, for example, I have to get a special visa -- which is quite difficult to obtain if I am not a student -- and register with the police.

If I fail to do this, I am not going to find a friend when I try to get a driver's license.

Nobody is suggesting that legal immigrants should not be given driving licenses but there is no reason for any state services, other than emergency ones, to be granted to people whose very presence puts them in violation of the law.

If the United States decides to allow a person to live in the country, then no state has the right to ban him. On the other hand, if a person is there illegally, no state has the right to facilitate him in his commission of that crime.

If an illegal immigrant does not have a driver's license, and is stopped by a police officer for a traffic violation, he will be arrested. It will soon become clear that he is in the country illegally and the police will have the obligation to hand him over to the federal authorities -- just as they would if he violated any other national law.

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Very well said!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif