Newsstand - Attn: West Europeans! Please don't risk coming to the US anymore!

http://www.helsinki-hs.net/news.asp?id=20030317IE7

A 33-year-old Finnish woman underwent a harrowing ordeal at JFK International Airport in New York early last week, as she was on her way to the state of Washington spend a month with her sister's family.

(snip)

The woman was taken to another place at JFK which was open 24 hours a day. For the transport, she and the others with similar problems were put in handcuffs and leg irons.
...
The shackles were not removed when they reached their destination. Next to the Finnish woman was a London banker wearing a pinstripe suit. He had stayed one day beyond the limit in 1996.

What are the legal rights of a passenger in such a situation ?

I really feel sorry for that woman, as the finns have a lifestyle and social rules so far from that perversion !!!
Definitely 2 different worlds !
Bureaucratic abuses might happen everywhere,
but here it sounds more like "Midnight Express" less the torture..

Should I cancel my plans for US mileage runs? I am Australian with Japanese residency.

When you find yourself in such a situation your legal rights have no relevance.

I am not a legal expert so I can't say if the officials abused their powers. However I can say that these officials should be tough a lesson in how to treat people in a respectful manner.

I liked the line about how they would be brought to a place to rest in the morning. I would like to ask the officials if they consider this to be normal - sleep during the day?

And I think handciffs would be enough, if they considered these people a security risk. Some people just don't realize it when they are getting carried away.

IMHO I hope that fewer visitors go to the US and that the US suffers economically and realizes that they are mistreating their paying guests.

I for one, live in Germany and am an American citizen, had planned a short 4-day trip to the US. But this has been cancelled - I have absolutely no desire to be branded a co-conspirator in the Axis of the Unwilling (or whatever the term of the week is) and subjected to what amounts to psychological abuse by some narrow-minded, official that is not able to make any sound judgements about citizens of other countires. He has probably never left his home state, never mind travelled abroad, so how could he differentiate?

The questions I have been asked before tell me that there is the US and then there is a big blender bucket into which all of the other countries fall. Apparently this blender gets used a lot!

What a disgrace! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif

------------------
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

I agree that the treatment that this woman received was disgraceful and she should have been treated better. However, are we to just quit enforcing our laws? Or are we to "selectively" enforce them. Immigration has become a big issue since 9/11 and all visiters are being looked at more closely. I do not agree that this woman should have been treated this way, but if she did overstay a visa, that precludes her from entering the US again.

Turn the other foot, I know LOADS and LOADS of Americans who have overstayed visa waivered entries to the UK, most Americans would scream bloody murder if UK immigration shackled and cuffed them until a hearing for a 1 day overstay or a clerical error upon a future re-entry. If INS has their passport/travel docs what is the risk to have to shackle someone and handcuff them.

The INS is KNOWN to make HUGE mistakes. In my citizenship case alone, TWICE my fingerprints were lost (when they still did paper fingerprints), and once my check was lost. 4 ATTEMPTS, prior 3 all errors by the INS. This is minor, think about someone who gets a dis-service by the INS and is detained due to it.

One MORE reason ( I see no-one has seen or read my other posts) to do an ETA/Electronic Travel Authority system. Australia uses this VERY well, people who have overstayed are denied an ETA visa (issued by the airlines which are linked to Oz immigration), in cases of denial a paper visa needs to be issued. No turning up and being arrested in Oz as the person KNOWS they can't get an ETA and land in Oz, hence they get a paper visa.

Why is the INS, State Dept and Homeland security in the darn dark ages when it comes comes to issuing visa's, especially pre-validating visa waivered entries. BTW: If you do believe you have overstayed a previous entry to the US and aren't sure, the local US embassy/consulate provides NO WAY to verify this. So most people show up and get detained. I find THIS hard to believe as INS/Border patrol catches these people right away. Seems like a disservice to LEGIT visitors to this country (for those who think the overstayer's commited a crime see my reference above to Americans I KNOW have overstayed in UK and the rest of Europe - do we want what we dish out to visitors to be given back to us - with NO RECOURSE)



[This message has been edited by NickP 1K (edited 03-19-2003).]

Sure, mistakes happen with every gov't agency in every gov't. If a US citizen overstaed a visa in the UK, they have every right to deny them re-entry if they so coose. Thats what makes them a sov. gov't. I lived in the UK for 4 years and they made plenty of mistakes, that was back in the early to mid 80's and almost ALL gov't business was done on paper! It took 9 weeks to get an auto registration form back, and it was hand written with the wrong plate number. My first daughter was born there (dual citizenship) and her British birth certificate is hand written. They got the birthdate wrong twice. So we are not the only gov't that has errors in paperwork or processes.

Not to throw petrol on the fire but if you think the above is bad, you aught to see how the INS treats stowaways on cargo ships.
I have seen such unbeliveable treatment which makes me wonder why anybody (if they knew before hand) would subject themselves to that just to get into any country even the US.
Foreign cargo vessels (even in US ports) fall under some unusual rules governing stowaways and capatain is required to keep the individual on board until they return to (the stowaway's) home port, which in the case of most bulk carriers, may be years. So the ships crew have to construct a makeshift prison on board (under INS supervision) usually in places extremely hot areas with little or no ventilation and certainly no bathroom facilities.
It is very disturbing to have to work on these ships (my job entails spending some 2 to 4 hours on board) and hear one or more stowaways screaming their lungs off from their confinement.

Its no wonder when some are forced by the crew to jump overboard and swim ( which happens more often than you care to believe) when the ship sails near shoreline they might actually be glad to do so.
Mike

Leg irons for allegedly overstaying a visa? Ridiculous. The phrase "jackbooted thugs" comes to mind. I am more than a little embarrassed for my country over this one.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
I agree that the treatment that this woman received was disgraceful and she should have been treated better. However, are we to just quit enforcing our laws?</font>

No, we shouldn't quit enforcing our laws, but we shouldn't be wasting our resources and (presently very limited) money on this kind of treatment for someone who may have overstayed 7-8 years ago.

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by MIKESILV:
Not to throw petrol on the fire but if you think the above is bad, you aught to see how the INS treats stowaways on cargo ships.
I have seen such unbeliveable treatment which makes me wonder why anybody (if they knew before hand) would subject themselves to that just to get into any country even the US.
Foreign cargo vessels (even in US ports) fall under some unusual rules governing stowaways and capatain is required to keep the individual on board until they return to (the stowaway's) home port, which in the case of most bulk carriers, may be years. So the ships crew have to construct a makeshift prison on board (under INS supervision) usually in places extremely hot areas with little or no ventilation and certainly no bathroom facilities.
It is very disturbing to have to work on these ships (my job entails spending some 2 to 4 hours on board) and hear one or more stowaways screaming their lungs off from their confinement.

Its no wonder when some are forced by the crew to jump overboard and swim ( which happens more often than you care to believe) when the ship sails near shoreline they might actually be glad to do so.
Mike
</font>

I was going through CAE the other day and there was a guy from Cuba who was being deported back to that workers paradise. He was accompnied by 2 INS agents, and a doctor. He was heavily sedated, and handcuffed in a wheelchair. As we were waiting for our flights, I struck up a conversation with the INS agent. It seems that this individual had arrived in this country during the Mariel boat lift. He had been imprisoned in Cuba for murder but Castro took advantage and emptied his prisons letting these fine folks come to the US. Needless to say, this guy killed a man in a home invasion, raped and killed the wife too. He had just finished his sentence here and was being taken "home." Now that boat lift aside, I lived in Miami in those days, I don't think it is too much to ask that our gov't know exactly who is coming here before they get here. After they get here is just too late.

I think it is a good thing the INS has decided to strictly enforce the laws. These kind of incidents will more quickly lead to the laws being changed. Congress makes the laws and Congress can change them.

But then again this is the same Congress that "outlawed" french fries and french toast. Maybe my faith in them changing stupid laws is misplaced. I wonder what type of salad dressing they use.

Doppy, had they known she was coming into the US and had they had the information about her, it is unlikely that she would have been allowed to make the trip in the first place, thus avoiding the problem altogether.

Assuming that this event really happened, it is indeed sad.

Unable (or unwilling) to do anything to prevent September 11, 2001, impotent government bureaucrats are now only doing what comes naturally - following their regulations to the letter, even if justice is trampled.

Odds that this woman is a terrorist? Zero.

Odds that she knows any terrorists? Zero.

Odds that she is any danger to the US? Zero.

Benefit to the rest of us from the shabby treatment she received? Zero.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

so if a European overstaid their visa a number of years ago, what are they supposed to do to avoid this type of episode?

richard - basically, just don't go.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by richard:
so if a European overstaid their visa a number of years ago, what are they supposed to do to avoid this type of episode?</font>

Given the INS' gross incompetence at record keeping, it's a wonder they can make such claims about visa overstayers in the first place.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">However, as reported by DOJ's Inspector General in 1997 and 2002, INS
lacked many Form I-94 departure records, and as a result, INS could
not identify all of the aliens who had left the country.[Footnote 4]</font>

http://www.gao.gov/atext/d03188.txt

What a disgusting story. Terror alert or not, I expect immigration authorities to use common sense in their job functions. I find it especially troubling that she wasn't the only one (i.e. it wasn't an isolated incident).

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif

Score one more for Usama and Co.

I give up, any thread in which this ACES guy gets involved in, reasoned dialogue immediately goes out the door, maybe a little reading comprehension would help.

How many times are we going to hear about the Mariel boatlift, that was 20 years ago
and what does that have to do with the INS
treatment of at least apparently individuals and the inhumane treatment of non-American

If really funny that the right-wing were so against the Cubans coming here, but now they vote Republican so everything is okie dokie.
Mike

Smessier your "from" has piqued my interest
who, who, who pray tell.
They seems to be all here, at least recently.
mike

Simple. If you are a non-American, spend your money elsewhere. Perhaps send receipts of your non-US spending to US equivalent stores. Maybe one day the authoritarian fools in our government will learn.

As someone who is probably one of the harshest critics of the INS (or its subsequent avatar) normally, I must regretfully side with ACES II on this matter. The law is the law. The agency was in full compliance both with the law as well as with their own internal policies in this case.

The INS had reason to believe that the lady had overstayed a previous entry. As a result, they were absolutely justified in detaining her and ordering her expedited removal to country of citizenship. That is due process at work for you. She was not abused or beaten up or lied to at any point. The law provides limited rights to detainees in this situation, but it appears from the account that all of these were respected.

There was absolutely nothing disgraceful about the way the woman was treated. The INS did a good job in this case.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
Doppy, had they known she was coming into the US and had they had the information about her, it is unlikely that she would have been allowed to make the trip in the first place, thus avoiding the problem altogether.</font>

Again, restricting people's ability to travel based on a minor violation that MAY have happened 7-8 years ago is just a waste of our resources and bad for globalization and the world economy.

d

In your opinion.

There really are enough stories and experiences about the INS to warrant concern. It doesn't serve U.S. interests to be seen as obstructionist in admitting the vast majority of visitors that bear us no ill will.

At the very least, a much more transparent process for determining one's status (besides just coming here and finding out in front of an officer) is in order.

Indeed you are correct, people come here for many reasons. A lot of them do not ever intend to return to their home country. We should know who they are and their intentions (to the best of our abilities) before they get here. How many stories of "students" coming here from questionable countries (Syria, Iran, Libya, to name a few) for an education and disappear are we going to hear before something is done about it? There are MILLIONS of people in this country that are here illegally. The INS has no idea of where or who they are.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
In your opinion.</font>

Well, the effect on economics is a simple fact.

I find it very, very unlikely the lady
was put in leg irons.

Notice the source of the information made
no attempt to verify any facts whatsoever.
What you have is an unsubstantiated, biased,
opinion that was printed.

The INS also has separate detention facilities and would not send a detainee to a police lockup in queens.

The last, really stupid unsubtantiated fact in the article is that police threw out her personal belongings. Had she been detained, her items would have been stored and/or catalogued.

Ok, I am due in the States in 2 weeks time. My departure card from my last visit is still in my passport, as nobody could be bothered to take it away from me (it was in November - all that increased security?). Do I cancel my visit in case I am refused entry for a bureaucratic oversight?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by leightonbest:

The INS also has separate detention facilities and would not send a detainee to a police lockup in queens.

</font>

If the INS facilities are full, which they often are, they use local facilities. In Chicago they have used the jail in Wheaton (Dupage county).

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by leightonbest:
I find it very, very unlikely the lady
was put in leg irons.

The INS also has separate detention facilities and would not send a detainee to a police lockup in queens.

The last, really stupid unsubtantiated fact in the article is that police threw out her personal belongings. Had she been detained, her items would have been stored and/or catalogued.
</font>

I can assure you that leg irons are standard operating procedure for INS detainees. I have regularly seen hapless folks being escorted through JFK with them on.

Also, perishables of detainees are routinely destroyed not just by the INS but pretty much any agency.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Jenbel:
Ok, I am due in the States in 2 weeks time. My departure card from my last visit is still in my passport, as nobody could be bothered to take it away from me (it was in November - all that increased security?). Do I cancel my visit in case I am refused entry for a bureaucratic oversight?</font>


Same thing happened to me a few years back Jenbel and I was worried about whether they would think I'd overstayed. I've been back twice since , including pre clearance at YVR with no problems. I was going to NYC on 9/13/2001 but of course there were no flights. Now with the tightening of security I do wonder if soemthing will flag next time I enter.

Nigel

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Jenbel:
Ok, I am due in the States in 2 weeks time. My departure card from my last visit is still in my passport, as nobody could be bothered to take it away from me (it was in November - all that increased security?). Do I cancel my visit in case I am refused entry for a bureaucratic oversight?</font>

You should have no problem. The important thing if you want to avoid major hassles is to keep your own records showing entry and exit, and be prepared to show them. The INS did not keep keep good records. The lack of good records is a major impetus behind the new system they are trying to put in place.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by chi1k:
You should have no problem. The important thing if you want to avoid major hassles is to keep your own records showing entry and exit, and be prepared to show them. The INS did not keep keep good records. The lack of good records is a major impetus behind the new system they are trying to put in place. </font>

So frequent flyer statements are good for something after all then http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Nigel, I'm sure if something does go wrong, you will hear all about it! And since its a leisure trip, I don't even get to seek assistance from the Embassy - though never been convinced they would be much help anyway!

According to the INS in DC.

Leg irons would only be used on a criminal or someone that was suspect of hurting themselves or others deemed a severe flight risk. They are not routinely used by any means.

Also stated they would have sent to another INS facility and not put into state custody if the JFK holding facilites were beyond capacity.

Much more dramatic the way it was told though.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by leightonbest:
According to the INS in DC.

Leg irons would only be used on a criminal or someone that was suspect of hurting themselves or others deemed a severe flight risk. They are not routinely used by any means.


</font>

Complete and utter BS
I have seen foreigners put in leg irons in more than TEN TIMES within the last 15 years.

People just dont know about the INS because
the ordinary citizen rarely come in contact with them.

One incident which has stood out in my mind occurred a few years ago, when 4 or so stowaways jumped ship at a dock just south of Tampa.
INS and Border patrol was called in and they rounded up about 12 our more, all " foriegn looking" people in area, brought them back to the ship in cuffs and leg-irons.

Only problem was that all but one were Mexican farm-workers here legitimately working in the tomatoes fields nearby.
Most were kept in that condition for over two days until their documents were verified.
Mike

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by leightonbest:
According to the INS in DC.

Also stated they would have sent to another INS facility and not put into state custody if the JFK holding facilites were beyond capacity.

</font>

The INS routinely uses non-INS jails all the time.

But, as you say, surely the INS is telling the truth, since they always do, and the Finnish lady is "embellishing".

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
I agree that the treatment that this woman received was disgraceful and she should have been treated better. However, are we to just quit enforcing our laws? Or are we to "selectively" enforce them.</font>

They have been selectively enforced in the past. If this woman has been allowed into the US time and time again since the supposed incident, she has every right to believe that there's no problem. If the INS has asked earlier, she'd have had her old passport to prove who was right.

Part of how law is supposed to work is that it's supposed to be fair. None of that is fair. There's also this matter of "innocent until proven guilty" and they don't seem to respect that either, especially when they conveniently don't bother to investigate at all until after a person's old passport is no longer available.

I have been to the US many times and have never overstayed. I have just recently had a new passport issued. The INS could make a mistake and do the same thing to me. Given their "guilty until proven innocent" stance, I'd have no way to avoid the same fate as this woman.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Kremmen:
They have been selectively enforced in the past. If this woman has been allowed into the US time and time again since the supposed incident, she has every right to believe that there's no problem. If the INS has asked earlier, she'd have had her old passport to prove who was right.

Part of how law is supposed to work is that it's supposed to be fair. None of that is fair. There's also this matter of "innocent until proven guilty" and they don't seem to respect that either, especially when they conveniently don't bother to investigate at all until after a person's old passport is no longer available.

I have been to the US many times and have never overstayed. I have just recently had a new passport issued. The INS could make a mistake and do the same thing to me. Given their "guilty until proven innocent" stance, I'd have no way to avoid the same fate as this woman.</font>

Kremmen, yes the INS rules were enforced haphazardly in the past. 9/11 seems to have changed all that though and now they are very aggressive. As for the laws being fair. Who are they supposed to be fair too? Fair to those they are there to protect (US citizens), or those who want to enter the US (non-citizens). They are what they are. The US has always had open arms for anyone coming here. We got burned very badly by that and that changed our governments attitude to those coming here. Only time will change that. I would not worry about your new passport, however, if you still have the old one, you have proof of your travels. I am all for pre-screening of individuals coming here before they arrive as I believe that will prevent many if not all of the problems that arise. There is no way to correct them once you get here.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Kremmen:
There's also this matter of "innocent until proven guilty" and they don't seem to respect that either.</font>

Actually, a fundamental tenet of US immigration law is that aliens are GUILTY until proven innocent.

All alien applicants for non-immigrant entry are presumed to have immigrant intent until they are able to prove to the satisfaction of the examining officer that such is not the case. The burden of proof is squarely and entirely upon the alien.

Hee Hee.... Show me an INS field manual that they ACTUALLY have to abide to, and I'll vote republican.... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

B747-437B, that is more likely true and I believe it. I guess they took that stance since so many people absolutely never intended to leave once they got here. Given that millions of the worlds population would love to live in the US it is only prudent for the US gov't, or any gov't, to assure that their population is not inundated by "visitors" who quickly become illegal immigrants. However, both of our political parties are guilty of neglect when it comes to the INS. The Democrats see these new immigrants (illegal or not) as new voters for them and the Republicans see them as cheap labor. Both parties are disgraceful in acting that way and I for one disagree with both of them.

I'm in shock!!! ACES and I actually agree on something. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Just one additional fact: Since the 1980s, the U.S. has been trying to deal with illegal immigration by making it VERY difficult for illegal aliens to get jobs. The theory is that people won't stay if they can't work here. The burden is on employers to establish U.S. citizenship or legal residency of new hires. Of course, lots of employers are willing to hire illegal aliens, which causes lots of problems for legal visitors.

Bruce

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
The Democrats see these new immigrants (illegal or not) as new voters for them and the Republicans see them as cheap labor.</font>

Well, once upon a time I would have agreed with you, but since 2000 Pres. Bush and the Republican party ended up jumping on the Democratic bandwagon and up until 9/11 had wanted to regularize all the illegal Hispanic immigrants in a cheap effort to pick up votes long term.

These illegal immigrants may be cheap labor for US businesses and households, but now we can pretty easily take the work overseas and give our clients and their shareholders a better bottom line. This outsourcing has become big business for me and overtime I expect fewer immigrants chasing work and instead tend to see work chasing overseas labor until time- and quality-adjusted price arbitrage occurs.

First goods/commodities were shipped and the price of commodities worldwide were more or less equalized. Then capital became mobile and the price of money (risk-adjusted interest rates, return on capital, etc.) were more or less equalized. Now, the price of of labor is going to more or less equalize. I make a business of this and rack up the miles and points in the process of following this historical wave of labor arbitrage.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by GUWonder:
These illegal immigrants may be cheap labor for US businesses and households, but now we can pretty easily take the work overseas and give our clients and their shareholders a better bottom line. This outsourcing has become big business for me and overtime I expect fewer immigrants chasing work and instead tend to see work chasing overseas labor until time- and quality-adjusted price arbitrage occurs.</font>

That's a good point. It's an excellent way for other nations to work their way up to the US's level, versus having everyone come to the US.

Next we need to get rid of government subsidies that are putting these developing nation's out of business. (e.g. farm subsidies that make US agricultural products cheaper in developing nations than their own local products, thus putting the local farmer out of business, and necessitating the US to then pay "aid" to the developing nation so it can feed its people who can't find work.)

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:
That's a good point. It's an excellent way for other nations to work their way up to the US's level, versus having everyone come to the US.

Next we need to get rid of government subsidies that are putting these developing nation's out of business. (e.g. farm subsidies that make US agricultural products cheaper in developing nations than their own local products, thus putting the local farmer out of business, and necessitating the US to then pay "aid" to the developing nation so it can feed its people who can't find work.)

d</font>

Now THATS a funny thing, we pay farmers NOT to grow crops, and we give money to other countries to buy food. Would it not be cheaper for us to let the farmers grow the food at a set price paid by us and just GIVE the food to the poorer countries? Only one monetary hand out that way.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:
[
Next we need to get rid of government subsidies that are putting these developing nation's out of business. (e.g. farm subsidies that make US agricultural products cheaper in developing nations than their own local products, thus putting the local farmer out of business, and necessitating the US to then pay "aid" to the developing nation so it can feed its people who can't find work.)

d[/B]</font>

The situation is self perpetuating because the money the US gives other countries to buy food can only be used with certain strings attached.
First they are required to buy the food from US farmers at prices set by the USDA, the cargo must be tranported on US ships ( which is a problem since the USA has a minscule merchant marine) and if the money is not used within a certain period the credit is forfeited.
I know of one particular instance where a Caribbean nation brought large quantities of Bulgar wheat, a food item which they do not normally consume, just to use up the amount of money loaned/allocated.
The stuff ended up getting infested (with weevils) and sitting in containers in the discharge port for so long the demmurrage came up almost to cost of the grain.
After all that they still ended up owing the US banks a bunkch of money, so next year they borrowed (or were loaned) more money to pay off the previous loan.
Mike

[This message has been edited by MIKESILV (edited 03-21-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:

Next we need to get rid of government subsidies that are putting these developing nation's out of business. (e.g. farm subsidies that make US agricultural products cheaper in developing nations than their own local products, thus putting the local farmer out of business, and necessitating the US to then pay "aid" to the developing nation so it can feed its people who can't find work.)

d</font>

Doppy, we finally agree on something, it's exactly the same in Europe. 10 Million farmers who all get a handout of some kind.

Nigel

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
Who are they supposed to be fair too? Fair to those they are there to protect (US citizens), or those who want to enter the US (non-citizens).</font>

How about "everybody"? Even if this woman had overstayed by a few days some previous year, what harm did this do? These laws are intended to stop illegal immigration. Someone who allegedly overstays by a few days is clearly not attempting to migrate. They are no doubt pumping more money into the US economy while in the country.

These stories of fascist behaviour from the INS will simply discourage tourists to the USA. Is that fair to US citizens any more than to the non-US traveller? It helps wreck the travel industry in the US and put lots of US citizens into unemployment. Doesn't seem fair to anybody.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Kremmen:
How about "everybody"? Even if this woman had overstayed by a few days some previous year, what harm did this do? These laws are intended to stop illegal immigration. Someone who allegedly overstays by a few days is clearly not attempting to migrate. They are no doubt pumping more money into the US economy while in the country.
</font>

Exactly. This is harrassment and nothing more that serves no purpose whatsoever. She overstayed her VISA almost 10 years ago ... BFD.



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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin