Trip Reports - Comparison Trip Report LH C vs KLM WBC




Threy
Oct 24, 02, 11:05 am
After taking my first LH Business Class flights over the big pond after the cutbacks that follwed Sep 11 it`s time to compare LH`s C product with KLM`s World Business Class.


I had to experience some strange problems as LH was not able to excess my M&M account the weekend before my flight.So I decided to upgrade at DUS on the day of departure.The F (* Gold ) positions were quite busy on a Thursday morning.Usually two agents are manning the F desks which can also be used by passengers who fly the DUS-EWR BBJ ! Check in was quite efficient and fast and I made my way through security ( extra line for F/* Gold ) to enter the Lounge which is located one
floor up from the gate area at DUS.For those of you not familiar with the lounge facilities at DUS, you will find the typical LH Lounge here. The entrance hall is used for both FTL and SEN members with a printer for your M&M transactions.After that you will find your lounge on the right or left side

First real advantage for LH is the ability to print and look up your M&M balance from the lounge.Would theoretically be possible in KLM`s lounges at Schiphol as well. At least the agents can check your balance, but I doubt they will print it..., but I am not really sure.I can only expect the look of a KLM Lounge Agent after asking her to print your recent FD transactions.Reminds me of the good old Bond classic „From a view to a kill“

Anyway the agent wants to proceed my upgrade but could not do it. She actually had to call LH Kassel and after giving my pin she was able to work on it to proceed the upgrade and deduct the miles.I was pretty late but the agents were acting professional and were very friendly.After a short visit to the lounge and a bun with some Zentis Frühstückskonfitüre I went down to board LH 136, the early morning service to Frankfurt.
Got an aisle seat in C but the had the whole row just for me.

Another nice perk of the M&M programm, your connecting flight is always upgraded with your long-range flight.KLM will not adopt that, so your feeder will be in Coach

Not that they operate a 2 class cabin from a lot of german cities, but it would be a plus from cities with a 2 class cabin and service, which are Berlin, Hamburg, Frankfurt and Munich on some Boeing 737 departures.

Lufthansa`s intragerman Business Class service has been reduced and reduced and even more reduced over the years.Right now you will get two different types of service.The Breakfast dish is served like McDonalds serves its Egg dishes.Looks simply cheap on a hard paper tray.Unfortunately it not only looks cheap, it is pretty cheap, some would say you will find „Weber at its best“ service.
A small sandwich with delicious Parma ham, a sweet muffin ( can change from time to time ), some grapes( not the seedless ones, would be way too expensive I guess ) and a Actimel drink, ironically an expensive one.My advise would be to replace the Actimel drink with a cheaper comparable product and introduce seedless graves.Would be worth a pressnote

The other variety includes a plain sandwich, followed by the usual Lindt Pralines and sometimes a promotion invitation from Audi or Sixt.

For those of you not familiar with Lufthansa on intragerman flights, the shorter ones does not have service in Y at all.Reason for that, sometimes explained over the PA , is the short duration of the flight....By the way DUS-FRA is at least 45 minutes due to the high traffic volume around FRA.I remember a flight last year from FRA back to DUS with some guys from the Ukraine, who told other passengers that they are shocked by not only the interior of their LH flight ( older A 310 with the very old grey seats )but also because of the service, which was not existent on this leg.Quote back in those days was: „We always thought that LH is one of the best Airlines around...“

KLM`s service on the shorter Cityhopper flights or comparable KLM exel flights from DUS to AMS is at least a sweet cake or typical dutch cookie and your choice of orange juice or water in Y.
Not that I care too much about the food, but wouldn´t it be nice to serve at least some water on LH....??

After arriving at Frankfurt I made my way over to the C Gates with some stops at the Red Carpet Club and the Sen Lounge.The RCC was not so crowded, but the Sen Lounge has better food selections, but was heavily overcrowded as usual.

Both KLM and LH have too types of lounges, formerly separate ones for C and F.Since KLM had ceased its F class, their F lounge is now only for KLM`s top tier members.The C lounges are comparable, but Lufthansa offers some showers for C pax, which KLM does not.Obviously it is not enough to pay some $ 8000 to enjoy the priveledge of taking a shower at Schiphol.
Lufthansa`s First class lounge is superior to KLM`s RW Lounge, when it comes to the food selection, but both are notorious for offering the same products year after year. At least LH made some changes from time to time.KLM has to improve the quality of its brand new Crown Lounge to be competitive again.On the other hand AMS seems to be one of the Airports where no lounge is really nice, so there is no need for KLM to improve cause they still operate the best one.


Anyway the boarding process started at 9.15 for the 9.50 departure to DFW.Over the PA you could hear the next gate looking for volunteers for LH`s Tel Aviv service, offering TCV`s worth $ 600.

They boarded our Airbus through the first two doors, unfortunately and in typical german fashion, everybody took the first gangway and proceeded right through F class and all the way through C to Y.The whole boarding process lasted about 45 minutes with people already sitting in F.I wonder if LH cannot do better and avoid the migration through the C and F cabin or at least the F cabin ?? If they do so, they can already serve some drinks without being interrupted by passengers.Does not make sense to me to serve the drinks while pushing back and collect the glasses three minutes later....

The lounge agent was able to give me 12A and blocked 12B, nice touch especially because C was booked very solid.The first thing you notice after flying NW and KLM upfront throughout the last months, it is tight in C on Lufthansa.A 48 inch pitch in comparison to the 60 inch pitch of KLM and NW is not competitive.

Pre-Departure Drinks were offered and we pushed back some 20 minutes late and left FRA 30 minutes late with a flight time of exactly 10 hours.

Almonds and Drinks were offered along with the menu:

Hors d`oeuvre

Gravlax with Coriander Ginger Mayonaise and smoked Trout Tartare
Or
Breast of Poularde with Couscous Tabbouleh and Arugula Creme Fraiche

Salad

Frisee and Radicchio with Mustard Orange Dressing
Bread, Rolls and Butter

Entrees

Lamb Medaillons in Herb Crust accompanied with Ratatouille and Potato Dumplings
Or
Fillet of Halibut and Vegetable Julienne served with Tarragon Seafood Fond, Romanesca Cauliflower and Mississippi Rice
Or
Zucchini Piccata in Basil Tomato Sauce with green Asparagus

Cheese and Dessert

Appenzeller, Camembert and Tete de Moine with Grapes

Gingerbread Mousse Basel-style and Fig Compote

Fresh Fruit Salad

I chose the Gravlax and the Lamb, which were very good.However both sides were rather small, but were presented very nice.
The crew was very attentive, constantly offering refills and replaced the trays as fast as possible.I asked to have the cheese and some fruit salad and was given both with friendly smiles.

The main difference between KLM/NW and LH is the possibilty to choose from two starters on LH. KLM only offers one starter dish, but that is usually a much bigger portion.The entrees are very much comparable, personally I think you should offer at least some more popular entree like steak or a chicken breast.It is very likely to have pax, who simply don`t eat fish or lamb. Same with KLM lately, they offered hake and fish and some vegetarian pasta, which caused some questions from passengers, if they don`t have anything like chicken or steak....

The inflight entertainment system is virtually the same, a small screen with about 15 channels but no interactive choices.KLM shows the new releases much quicker, because of no need to translate the movies. Therefore LH is running behind some months with its movie presentations.Headsets are just bad on both airlines.

The snack was served about 90 minutes out of DFW:

Salad

Seasonal Greens with Dressing
Roll and Butter

Hot Specialities

Red Snapper with Mustard Crust
Or
Herb Chicken Patty Pojarsky

Dessert

Chocolate Tartlet

The snack was tasty as well, but the dessert and the Chicken Patty were both very small.KLM`s „Before Arrival“ snack is normally a cheese puffy and some tripple decker sandwiches served with a fruit bowl as dessert.Overall KLM`s snack is slightly better, but both airlines are really not offering a Biz class like product here

Immigration was a breeze and the luggage showed up first, I guess because of the * Priority Tags.A huge advantage for Lufthansa here, neither KLM or NW seem to recognize Priority Tags at all.Just lately I had to wait nearly an hour at MIA for my luggage packed with all kinds of Royal Wing tags, Priority Tags, WBC Tags etc.Unfortunately that is very commom on many airports....

LH 439
DFW-FRA

The flight backed was overbooked in Y so I hoped for an operational upgrade which I got at the gate.Again it was 12A with 12 B blocked off.Lufthansa Staff at DFW was both very nice and friendly as well as professional.Seems to be a nice station.The Lufthansa Lounge at DFW is downstairs, has no windows, but showers and a decent snack selection and soft drinks.Alcohol is offered upon request.One minute away from the Lufthansa Gate B 33.

Menu

Hors d`oeuvre

Snow Crab Salad served with Champagne Vinaigrette, Chives, Asparagus Spears and roasted Tomato

Grilled marinated Vegetables offered with Goat Cheese and Hummus

Salad

Seasonal Salad presented with Dressing
Roll and Butter

Entrees

Beef Tenderloin Roulades fiiled with Porcini Mushrooms
With a Pearl Barley Risotto and Mediterranean Vegetables
Or
Pan seared Arctic Char accompanied by Curry Sauce, grilled Scallion, Ratatouille and Couscous

Potato Gnocchi offered with Parsley Cream Sauce and Wild Mushroom Ragout

Cheese and Dessert

Cheddar, Chaumes and Blue Cheese

Praline Mousse

Fruit Salad

Again the whole presentation was very professional, the entrees very good as well as the dessert.Service was rocksolid, but not as attentive as on LH 438.Bottles of water were not distributed, but water and orange juice was constantly offered throughout the night.

Enjoyed one of the surprising films these season “Bend it like Beckham“, which is both funny and entertaining with some ironic remarks on the recent Germany-England soccer history.

Flight was uneventful, Cruising speed was relatively high with light bumps over New England.

Breakfast was offered about an hour out of Frankfurt:

Fresh Fruit

Roll and Croissant with Butter and Preserves

A variety of cold cuts featuring Honey baked ham, Edam and Cheddar Cheese

Entrees

Omelette

Peach Blintz

Last Minute Breakfast

Coffee or Tea

Orange Juice

Croissants

The Omelette was dry and needed a lot of pepper and salt to be enjoyable, but the rolls were warm and the selection of cold cuts was nice.Rolls and Croissants were offered for a second and third time.

KLM`s a la carte Breakfast beats Lufthansa`s breakfast easily, because you can choose from different options and order your own breakfast.However LH offers a better breakfast than NW.KLM and NW basicly are offering the same WBC product,but the breakfast is different.

On a sidenote, we had to circle for over 40 minutes due to the normal high traffic volume over the Frankfurt area.

Had to switch terminals again to get to A 38 with a stop at the A Sen Lounge which was packed to describe it very very objective.

The main disadvantage LH cannot compensate is their hub.Don`t get me wrong, Frankfurt has become a nice airport but the ways are too long and you have to switch Terminals which simply costs too much time.The time for riding the train or running the tunnel would be sufficient to connect throughout AMS under the worst circumstances.A plus for FRA is the fact that there definately more immigration officers around.The lack of immigration officers at AMS can be described best as a „connection killer“. To be honest I have nver seen anybody using Schiphol`s state of the art but too expensive „we scan your eye“ technology.What?s the name again ?? Actually I really expected KLM to pay for their best customers to use this technology, but obviously they did not think so.
-
Heavy rain delayed our departure back to DUS, so we arrived 45 mintes late.Usually at DUS the luggage needed 20 minutes to show up, but my staff was first out again.

My personal summary and comparison

KLM is a notch better than Lufthansa, when it comes to compare the C Class product.The main reason for that is the fact, that their pitch is simply better, 12 inches cannot be underestimated.Food is on average, but enough for my not so high expectations on airline food.KLM`s second meal service is better, but LH offers a better snack service between the main meal presentations.I guess everybody will prefer some sandwiches and fresh cheese cake to a selection of chocolate bars.AMS is superior to FRA as well, but both are horrible if you have to take the bus to the Terminal.Fortunately Schiphol has only one, not bus but terminal which is Frankfurt`s main disadvantage, at least when you have to connect.

Both are offering a very professional service, which is highly recommendable from my point of view.Both are economically successful as well, therefore I can tolerate and understand some service cutbacks over the last years.I don`t need high quality champagne in C to give an example, but I would enjoy internet access from your seat and an interactive Entertainment System, a huge disadvantage if decent movie selections are available.Beside that the seat is standard, I like Northwest`s really old, but still nice WBC seat.Standing 6`3 both KLM`s and LH`s seat are giving me problems to use the footrest in any comfortable position.
The new amenity kit KLM gives out is both equally decorative and stuffed with quality products.LH is behind on that point but offers the stickers the pax can use to express their wishes whether to sleep or have breakfast etc.

A huge advantage for Lufthansa is their superior ground service.On Average I get a better treatment being a SEN in comparison to the treatment as a KLM Royal Wing.Hopefully Plat recognition and treatment will be better.Another advantage for LH is their baggage handling. AMS is awful on that matter. If KLM is responsible for that is beyond my knowledge, but LH is doing a fantastic job here.
Lost luggage is unfortunately standard at AMS.

So I guess you cannot have everything...., but you are normally a happy camper on both KLM/NW and LH/* !!


MileTex
Oct 24, 02, 12:32 pm
Great comparison! I'm looking forward to flying on KLM's WBC thanks to their Match promotion. I take LH out of DFW quite alot and I have to say their service is really first rate. I understand the DFW employees have more combined years of seniority than anywhere in the US system. The pitch on LH is in serious need of improvement. I can rarely sleep on their flights.

Thanks again for the nice report http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Carfield
Oct 25, 02, 7:35 pm
Thanks for an interesting comparison report!

LH J products are a bit outdated, especially the seats are a bit tight for J class these days.

The food aspects are interesting...
Thanks for the detailed information!

Carfield


johan rebel
Nov 6, 02, 8:49 am
Thanks! Interesting comparison. A few comments :

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Threy:
KLM has to improve the quality of its brand new Crown Lounge to be competitive again.</font>

They have already started! The almonds are gone, so now you have to munch on the same peanuts as in the C class lounges! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Threy:
personally I think you should offer at least some more popular entree like steak or a chicken breast. Same with KLM lately, they offered hake and fish and some vegetarian pasta, which caused some questions from passengers, if they don`t have anything like chicken or steak....</font>

On my KLM flights AMS-JNB-AMS the same menu has been offered since September. It is getting a bit boring, but the main course selection is reasonable on the outbound flights :

-Jalapeño chicken
-Braised beef with apricot
-Fish curry.

On the late return flight (KL592) there is a choice between a cold supper (butterfish) or a hot supper (the same butterfish and Thai green chicken curry)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Threy:
Headsets are just bad on both airlines.</font>

KLM will be introducing new headsets in WBC in December, according to an article in the Dutch Flying Dutchman magazine. No specifics given.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Threy:
To be honest I have nver seen anybody using Schiphol`s state of the art but too expensive „we scan your eye“ technology.What?s the name again ?? Actually I really expected KLM to pay for their best customers to use this technology, but obviously they did not think so.</font>

Obviously you have never had the privilege of seeing me in action! I've had a Privium Card (that's what it is called) almost since day one, and I'm very satisfied. If you fly frequently enough to or from Schiphol I definitely believe it is value for money. You can save a lot of time, not only at immigrations, but also at the security checkpoints. They almost bend over backwards to speed you through. If you travel with hand luggage and use KLM's e.check-in machines, you can check-in and clear security and immigrations in about two minutes, easily. On very busy days this you may thus save half an hour.

KLM and Schiphol Airport fight like cat and dog at times. KLM believes that, being the largest airline at Schiphol, it and its customers should receive preferential treatment. They were not at all pleased when Schiphol introduced the Privium Card, that's why they refused to sign up to the program. Other airlines (Air France, Alitalia, Austrian, bmi, Cathay Pacific, Delta, Lufthansa, SAS and United) did do so, which allows Privium Card holders to check-in at dedicated counters when flying with these airlines.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Threy:
Another advantage for LH is their baggage handling. AMS is awful on that matter. If KLM is responsible for that is beyond my knowledge, but LH is doing a fantastic job here.Lost luggage is unfortunately standard at AMS.</font>

The responsibility for luggage handling lies squarely with Schiphol Airport, who dramatically underestimated the growth in airline travel and failed to increase the capacity of the baggage handling system. Frantic efforts have been underway for several years now, but they still have a long way to go. For obvious reasons KLM and its passengers are the worst affected, so KLM has put a lot of money and effort into temporary solutions to alleviate the problems. This is yet another reason for the strained relations between the airport and the airline.

A quote from KLM's latest annual report :

"Schiphol’s current quality is still a cause for concern. Although the renovations of recent years are now nearing completion, which in itself represents a quality improvement, the delayed delivery of the new baggage system is another setback. In these circumstances, service and quality can be maintained only by means of expensive additional measures that have a direct impact on our results. We continue to believe that a number of substantial issues must be resolved before privatization of Schiphol can be successfully undertaken to the benefit of all current and potential stakeholders in the airport. This is particularly important given the public significance of Schiphol’s mainport function and the fact that Schiphol would remain a monopolist supplier even after a possible privatization. Specific issues such as quality and capacity, fees and conditions, our own position as the largest user and our opportunities to strengthen our distinctive presence at the airport need to be successfully addressed. As these improvements are made, Schiphol’s standing will be enhanced to the benefit of all its users."

johan

[edited to add quote from KLM annual report]



[This message has been edited by johan rebel (edited 11-07-2002).]

LH738
Nov 6, 02, 8:59 am
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Threy:
On the other hand AMS seems to be one of the Airports where no lounge is really nice, so there is no need for KLM to improve cause they still operate the best one.</font>
So true!
(IMO, the only small advantage of the KLM RW lounges in AMS is the champagne. At LH SEN lounges in Germany, there's no champagne available - except you ask and have luck)

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif Very interesting report. Thanks.

eMailman
Nov 6, 02, 10:11 am
I am also a regular on the DFW / FRA run on LH and your observations are 100% accurate. Next trip is on Saturday (9 Nov).

Tim2008
Nov 7, 02, 5:06 pm
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LH738:
[B] [QUOTE](IMO, the only small advantage of the KLM RW lounges in AMS is the champagne. At LH SEN lounges in Germany, there's no champagne available - except you ask and have luck)
B]</font>

In BRE it is normally available without asking http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Anyway great comparisation!

Tim



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