Traveled from IAD-AMS-FRA-AMS-IAD this past week with NW/KLM, and the flights were pretty normal. Packed pretty full, and we sat in the back, so nothing really special to report. I just wanted to comment on the security/immigration/customs officials along the way to contrast with the US, and get others' opinions on this matter:
We passed through immigration and customs at various points (AMS/FRA), and one thing that struck me was that the agents in these places were friendly, yet managed to do a VERY careful job. I had forgotten how different security officials can be from those in the US, where it seems like they think their job is the worst in the world, and the only thing you do is give them more trouble when you show up, asking for their favor to let you in the country.
In FRA and AMS, immigration agents were jovial, and played around with the kids passing through, even if they were traveling with passengers who were not waved right through -- eg. unusual passports or tickets. I don't know if this technique helps to identify passengers who are uneasy or suspicious, but it was interesting.
On our way back, we encountered the VERY thorough security questioning just before getting on the plane, and I was impressed by the young woman security officer who asked us about our baggage. Very detailed questions, such as: "what places did you visit on this trip" "what electrical devices are in any of your bags?" "did you recently have any of these devices repaired?" "were you separated from your bags at any time since you packed them this morning?" and so on. She spoke softly, so that we had to listen to her carefully, and was actually interested in the answers we gave!
Anyway, I actually felt somewhat safer compared to the 3 "nod your head yes, please" questions that we get in the US.
ps. another thing I noticed just about airport operations: in AMS and FRA, taxiing into the gate and pushing back from the gate on departure requires far fewer ground crew than in the US. I noticed that in the US, we put several "wing-walkers" to watch the wing clearances during both procedures, and it seems that over in Europe, this is unnecessary?
During taxi into gate, there is an automated positioning system in front of the pilot to tell them when to stop. And then, on departure, the pushback tractor operator seems to have complete control and does the whole thing expertly on his own.
Any thoughts on these things?
Worldtraveler36
Mar 25, 02, 6:07 pm
Needless to say I am majorly into this post and I have absolutely no idea where to begin http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif.
Frankfurt- anyone who has been to FRA has to have fallen in love with that airport. It, along with Zurich and Singapore, are the most technologically advanced airports in the world. AMS is up there, but not at that level. I do love AMS, fyi.
Even people who are, shall we say, not fond of the German people, and that is an understatement, will give that the German Airports are way techno. advanced than most others, and I include Zurich in that, if you will. Again, only Singapore comes after that group.
The idea that you can take your luggage on the escalators. Now why haven't the other airports done this? I only know of FRA and ZRH, with AMS, CDG, and YMX-Montreal Mirabel, having the upward moving sidewalks that I love. It is a science that makes perfect sense, but you don't see it anywhere else. I know that Munich has moving sidewalks, including upward, but not sure if you could take the bags on the esc. ???
The Skytrain-FRA is a brilliant concept, though I wish, like at Newark and Gatwick, that we could take the luggage carts onboard. I will also give LGW some points, they have a nice train between the terminals. Heathrow needs that desperately!
As for US security, Immigration, and Customs, you really don't want me to go there http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif. I will try to be nice, and remember, I am a devout American.
I asked my friend in France who he thought had the worst customs in the entire world. The guy has been to Tanzania and Madagascar, as well as many other 3rd world countries. Took him no more than 2 seconds to say the US. I fully agree, though China fits well into that.
FYI, we do have some nice officers, they are out there, but will agree, overall, they are mean and rude. I am embarrassed when my friends from other countries come here and don't know how to sugar and spice the idiocy of these people. I want to promote the USA, and they make it very difficult. Then I go to their country and I am out in 2 seconds.
The officers in Europe are great. Very seldom do they even ask questions(save the UK and Ireland, guess that it gives them their jolies!? LOL ) and most are polite. The Dutch are very impressed that an American would take the time to learn a couple of words of Dutch, so they smile and welcome me. The French love me for speaking French, so I get points there.
My favorites are the Swiss. My mom pointed out that they can see my excitement for landing in Switzerland, so, it puts a smile on their face. Plus, I mess up with my awful German and they smile(they speak fluent English, but I make the attempt)
As for security, the US security (idiots) have always been unprofessional and now it has become a total joke. The European screeners are professional, paid way more, and polite, while doing their job. It is almost apples and oranges. The fact that some US screeners don't(or atleast didn't til the Gov't took over) speak English might have been just a slight clue.
IMO, the Japanese screeners(and beautiful women at that http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif ) are the best.
I think that in the US you will see a change, now that the Gov't has taken over. New people will be trained, out with the old, in with the new, but will take about a good 2-3 years to accomplish, so we have to be patient...
Please post more like these, love them!!! You have put me into a Europe mood. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
------------------
Michael
AA PLT,1 MLN Miles+
HH GLD, SCI GLD, MM SIL
LE PRESIDENT ETERNEL DE CAMAIR-CAMEROUN AIRLINES :)
peasant
Mar 25, 02, 10:39 pm
"ps. another thing I noticed just about airport operations: in AMS and FRA, taxiing into the gate and pushing back from the gate on departure requires far fewer ground crew than in the US. I noticed that in the US, we put several "wing-walkers" to watch the wing clearances during both procedures, and it seems that over in Europe, this is unnecessary?"
Standard US airline union featherbedding. Plus in Europe, many of the ramp jobs that in US are airline jobs (baggage handling, marshalling, pushback) are not - the functions are split between airport employed staff and different groundhandling agency staff, with an airline supervisor. Rather than lead to inefficiency, this has led to better efficiency because there is no one group that can gang up on the airline, and demand concessions (such as qualified mechanics acting as wingwalkers)
The EU mandates there must be competition at airports, so airlines have a choice of service providers or doing it themsleves. In the US, airlines own/ lease the gates themselves, and union closed shop rules then make the ramp a monopoly of airline staff only...
TA
Mar 26, 02, 2:38 am
"Standard US airline union featherbedding."
If this is true, this really pisses me off. I saw a 60 minutes segment a while back on why the airline industry is so backwards, and basically it boiled down to the airlines being held hostage by labor rules. This is costing us all money, and it's going into the hands of pilots, FAs, and mechanics, who I am sure, are not struggling to make ends meet.
I'm sure they always "justify" the extra crew lounging around or watching the wings as a "safety issue", but going to other countries blantantly demonstrates that this is not the real reason. The crew I saw in AMS and FRA were doing it just fine without padding the workforce 3x.
[This message has been edited by TA (edited 03-26-2002).]
Uli
Mar 26, 02, 4:37 am
Thanks for the report and thanks to Worldtraveler for his comments.
Nice to hear someone has a good opinion about FRA -- I am nearly living on this airport and I love it, too. If they would rent apartments there then I would move in for sure http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Cris L
Mar 26, 02, 7:49 am
As a UK resident - I am generally impressed by the European Airlines staff efficiency and friendliness as compared to American.
Though having said that - when a US airline shines it really does a nice job, and the staff can be incredible.
US Immigration staff are the worst, and considering that as a South African national who needs visa's for everywhere, there is no hesitation in my mind that US Immigration is the worst. I wouldn't say that any in my experience are particularly friendly ( but I haven't been to Asia - yet ! ).
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Uli:
Thanks for the report and thanks to Worldtraveler for his comments.
Nice to hear someone has a good opinion about FRA -- I am nearly living on this airport and I love it, too. If they would rent apartments there then I would move in for sure http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif</font>
>>> May I move in with you, please? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
We ( you also have PP, right?) could do the Europe City Club everyday and then we find a way to "sneak" airside and you can take me to all the Lufthansa Senator lounges with the warden http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif hassling us over kein(no) boarding pass. But we go in anyway...
Then we find a way to access all the lounges, that would be worth it alone. They also have a McDonald's in T2, so there is dinner, for sure http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif. Not to mention the deli/bakerei in T2, yummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Wonder if the Sheraton would create appartments?! This is a lovely thought. If you get technical, you never have to leave the airport... Oh, and did I mention that there are beautiful stews all over the airport. LTU Skybabes http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif.
I would also want an apartment at Singapore Changi... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif and Zurich would be another possibility. They need a lounge in the public area so I get free snacks everyday and it has to belong to Priority Pass...
These are nice thoughts...
Worldtraveler36
Mar 26, 02, 9:21 am
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TA:
"Standard US airline union featherbedding."
If this is true, this really pisses me off. I saw a 60 minutes segment a while back on why the airline industry is so backwards, and basically it boiled down to the airlines being held hostage by labor rules. This is costing us all money, and it's going into the hands of pilots, FAs, and mechanics, who I am sure, are not struggling to make ends meet.
I'm sure they always "justify" the extra crew lounging around or watching the wings as a "safety issue", but going to other countries blantantly demonstrates that this is not the real reason. The crew I saw in AMS and FRA were doing it just fine without padding the workforce 3x.
[This message has been edited by TA (edited 03-26-2002).]</font>
>>> OK, AOL threw me offline again, GRWL. So, I am back!
The fact that the United mechanics were even considering going on strike!? Thousands have been laid off by the airlines, friends of mine were "screwed" by the layoffs, and these turkeys were ready to go on strike and create mayhem(chaos) with a strike. I think it is time to appreciate even having a job in the industry.
Ah, that otta(ought to-pardon my casualness here http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif ) tell the public right there that there is something rotten in the state of Denmark(US airline industry in this case). http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
The unions have too much power, but they are way more powerful in Europe. 5 weeks vacation, ah, they are powerful, not that I would ever snear at 5 weeks holiday...
Anyway, good points made. I am mad at the airlines that went after the travel agents and took away their hard earned commissions, but then the United mechanics get a raise in salary when everyone else has been cut back. Nonsense...
Worldtraveler36
Mar 26, 02, 9:38 am
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Cris L:
As a UK resident - I am generally impressed by the European Airlines staff efficiency and friendliness as compared to American.
Though having said that - when a US airline shines it really does a nice job, and the staff can be incredible.
US Immigration staff are the worst, and considering that as a South African national who needs visa's for everywhere, there is no hesitation in my mind that US Immigration is the worst. I wouldn't say that any in my experience are particularly friendly ( but I haven't been to Asia - yet ! ).
</font>
>>> Hi again, I apologize profusely for my third post in a row on here, but I love this subject and thread. Maybe cause it is more international!? We need that on here.
Let me just defend the US airlines for a second http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif, yes, there are some good staff and some very sweet flight attendants.
United, when I flew with them, had some outstanding crews that I just adored. I would take a box of chocolates and present it to them toward the end of the flight, to say thank you, usually when I flew Business or First, not coach. They would sometimes hand me back a bottle of champagne or something nice, but they appreciated it.
American Airlines crews have been so average that I have never had the incentive to do something like that. There have been a few exceptions, but not many. Then AA shines with some of their ground staff, who can be wonderful. There is an agent at LAX, one at JFK, and one at LHR that are incredible! I give lot's of SOS's(performance cards for Platinums) when I get them.
As for immigration, Singapore, they are very friendly and professional. I think the Australian(see trip report LOL) & New Zealand officers are very friendly. By the way Mr. South African(I love your country!) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif, the SA officers were very kind and sweet as well.
The Canadians can be 50/50. When I last landed at Vancouver, the woman-immigration Canada was so rude and offensive. She had gotten up on the wrong side of the bed! But then the gentleman next to her was friendly, smiled,and was cool. Why couldn't I have had him??? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
China(Taiwan, fyi, was very nice and spoke fluent English) was the worst for immigration. I was nervous and was happy to get out of there. We were in a tour group and they lined us up according to numbers, so we had to go through on that number and they speak no English(tour guide translated)... I think South America you could have some problems, unless you hand over la mordida(bribe) and then you are good. Speaking of which, Nigeria... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Thanks, I have enjoyed this post...
azj
Mar 26, 02, 10:00 am
I can tell you from first hand experience, that when we require wingwalkers for an arrival or pushback, it is NOT for union beaurocratic purposes! The union doesn't require the wingwalkers, the company does. We all know that if the company can do it cheaper, the will. You guys can mock the safety aspect of pushing and taxiing in, but that is the real truth. I'm not exactly a diehard union boy, but I make sure there are wingwalkers on my side of the plane, not because I want to make the people wait, or the rampers actually do their job, but because I am apart of a crew that makes the operation happen. The number of ground incursions with bag carts, catering truckes etc... are too high to not justify the use of wingwalkers. Rampers don't even WANT to be wingwalkers, its like calling your kids in for dinner, they are hard to rustle up for wingwalking, so it is very obvious it isn't union politics.
YOu as passengers can perceive it the way you want, but I no reason to lie and just thought I'd voice the opinion and fact from the other side.
mauld
Mar 26, 02, 10:46 am
Another comment on FRA, I travelled through there about 2 weeks ago and what I found very interesting was there was no security in the baggage claim area. I had only carry on, but I noticed that as one exited the baggage area the 'doors' were unmanned. There were the usual signs denoting 'nothing to declare', but if you did have something to 'delare' (which I didn't), there wasn't any one to 'declare' it too. Is this normal for FRA? In other airports, there are usually at least a couple of bored looking security guys standing around chatting with each other, but here no one!
greggwiggins
Mar 26, 02, 12:02 pm
I'll vouch for the value of wingwalkers from personal experience about a year and a half ago when the wingtip of the AA MD-80 I was on got up-close-and-personal with a fuel truck.
I wrote it up as a trip report, and you can find it in the archives as "Ramp Collision at BWI" at:
This business of the wing-walkers interests me. Why can they do without them overseas? Are they just better at not leaving random pieces of equipment in the path of planes coming in or being pushed back? This sounds like it could be fixed with a little more attentiveness....
Also, I noticed that they used very interesting tractors for pushback. While here in America we use the tractors that attach a towbar to the nose landing gear and push back, they were using this kind of tractor that grabs the front landing gear, actually *lifts the whole front of the plane up*, and then pushes it back, at high speed! It was pretty neat.
CanadianGuy
Mar 26, 02, 12:37 pm
Great report and interesting replies.
I was in AMS in November and found the security very good, although the long lines were quite frustrating (I don't think this is as much of an issue if you are intransit).
Re Immigration - the U.S. to me has to be the most frustrating. Miami is especially bad, many of the officers are rude and uncaring. Ironically, some of the 911 hijackers entered the U.S. via MIA several times.
Many of the security agents in MIA do not speak or communicate well in English, although I expect this to change. When I last departed MIA, the alarm went off when I went through the magnotometer (?) and I was once again asked to open my belt and zipper! This is the second time this has happened to me, and only in MIA. I then had to sit down while they ran the explosive check on my shoes. During all of this procedure, my wallet and briefcase are in open display on the luggage belt, which is surrounded by passengers.
They decide to clear me, and as I stand up to retrieve my articles, I am then told I have to remove my shoes and jacket and put them through the belt, despite just having been checked for shoe explosives and wanded.
I was really getting frustrated, but did not say a word - some of these screeners are just looking for an argument and an opportunity to call the National Guard over.
Sorry for the rant!
azj
Mar 26, 02, 1:09 pm
I don't have any answers as to why the Europeans do what they do. Perhaps they don't have the same regard for ground safety as Americans do? Perhaps they have different operating procedures? I don't know. All I know is that wingwalkers are an integral part of the safety issue for operating in and around American airports.
At our hub in DTW we have new tugs for our Avros that do exactly as you mentioned... they go under the nose gear and lift the plane slightly... the bad thing with this process is that you can't see the push crew after the disconnect until they're out from under the plane... which could mean disaster if the hydraulics ae turned on too early.
They've been using this for the saabs for a long time now at the old G concourse in DTW.
I think this all boils down to technique in operations and safety. I'm not saying that foreign carriers aren't safety conscious, but it would be interesting to see their ground a/c damage statistics. Ours has dramatically reduced with the insistance of wingwalkers.
Worldtraveler36
Mar 26, 02, 4:45 pm
Re-FRA & MIA,
MIA, agree, security is a pain and Spanish really is the first language at MIA, which I know some. Not just at the airport but at hotels, etc... It's our Montreal LOL.
Also, you should not be leaving your valuables out like that... put them well inside your carry on if you take them off your person which I have been doing and I haven't "dinged" for a long time. I started doing this in Europe where their machines are(atleast were) much more sensitive than ours. Now, I think we are at the same levels. Change goes into the carry on, as that is what sets the machines off more than anything. Belts seem to be a pain, too.
I think I will wear shorts and t-shirt for security http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif, then change if I want to try to upgrade, after security.
FRA- at many airports in Europe I am noticing a casualness with customs. Security is almost irelevant at the bag reclaim as you are technically airside, even though at FRA, you can cheat and come in from the public area, from upstairs. You aren't supposed to enter from the "arrivals public area" and would probably be fined for it.
FRA Terminal 1 is an exception.
For customs officers, more so in Europe, it is now more of a spot check thing. They can show up from out of nowhere, trust me.
I like airports so I "study", if you will, the layout, baggage claim, customs hall, and all, and yes, it raises suspicions. The officer in Milan-Malpensa popped up from out of nowere and then we did the customs dance. I tried 4 languages, he could only do the dance in Italiano(amazing!) as every plane up there was from the US or the UK. Sad, actually. I got through fine. I swear I didn't see him til he just popped up. Freaky! They are trained to do that...
So, if they give you a break, take it.
One time there will be no officers(or you can't see them) and the next, you could have 12 standing there. More so for flights from Africa and South America.
peasant
Mar 26, 02, 9:14 pm
AZJ – I was under the impression that some contracts specified that the wing walkers had to be mechanics, rather than just, say, baggage handlers.
Yes, foreigners do it differently. Again, one reason is that gates and departure slots are controlled by the airport, rather than the airline. In my experience, this does lead to a much cleaner working environment – airlines are not allowed to park/ store stuff anywhere near the area. Not sure that there are comparative stats on ground damage. Also, as the airport allocates gates, rather than the airline, there is less commercial pressure to clear the gate fast for the next inbound aircraft.
Again, in my experience ground damage usually occurs after aircraft is on blocks, from ground service equipment drivers running into the aircraft, rather than the aircraft running into the equipment. Wingwalkers would only be called for in foggy conditions.
I’ve worked in groundhandling world wide, though only been on study trips of US operations. If anything, I would catagorise US as being the most slapdash, because of the greater focus on turnaround times, the fact that it is mostly domestic (far more last minute pax and bags being loaded) and trying to get quickly into the departure queue in airports that are stupidly overscheduled (in the rest of the world, if you ask for a schedule departure of 08:00, and too many departures are already there, tough. In the US it seems the airline just schedules what it likes, and ATC then gives the take off slot to whomsoever calls ready first) In such a freewheeling system, yes, I saw containers and tractors left dangerously close to aircraft, and can understand why you don’t feel comfortable without the extra eyes.
azj
Mar 26, 02, 9:52 pm
Intersting theory... Perhaps there is just more space at terminals in foreign countries? True, there is damage to a/c after blocked in... but there are definitely many instances while the a/c is moving back or pulling in that dangerous situations occur. There probably is a more streamlined approach to things when one agency is running the show, but that will never happen in America, therefore we compensate for stuff like that by taking extra safety measures.
I remain firm though, that it is not union featherbedding and is certainly not an act for money or politics.
Each airlines contract is different... I don't even think it is in our contract with the company. Its just an operational thing that we conform to... I know that at NW a mechanic must be on the tug, pushing the plane though.
Buster CT1K
Mar 28, 02, 8:53 pm
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Worldtraveler36:
China... was the worst for immigration. I was nervous and was happy to get out of there. We were in a tour group and they lined us up according to numbers, so we had to go through on that number and they speak no English(tour guide translated)... </font>
I arrived in Shanghai just last week, and it was much BETTER than the U.S. and as good as Europe and Singapore. It was a matter of stamp stamp go. Efficient, quick, no questions, and was not stopped by customs.
I guess anyone's mileage can vary, huh? Maybe being in a group can raise a subjective anxiety level.
renalt130
Mar 29, 02, 10:30 am
The strangest tugs I've ever seen are at Paris CDG. They hook up to one of the main undercarriages and back out the plane via remote control. Pushback seems to be pretty much a one-man/woman deal at least for non-widebodies.
[edited because they hook up to the undercarriages, not the uddercarriages]
[This message has been edited by renalt130 (edited 03-29-2002).]
Worldtraveler36
Mar 29, 02, 12:40 pm
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Buster CT1K:
I arrived in Shanghai just last week, and it was much BETTER than the U.S. and as good as Europe and Singapore. It was a matter of stamp stamp go. Efficient, quick, no questions, and was not stopped by customs.
I guess anyone's mileage can vary, huh? Maybe being in a group can raise a subjective anxiety level.</font>
>>> I am glad you liked China. My experience was icky and a friend of mine went by himself on a day tour, Hydro from Hong Kong to Shenzhen-port. The people in charge messed up on the group visa-birthdates for the people on the tour. The officer stopped them from disembarking, shouted at the tour group leader, and was most unprofessional.
Friend freaked out, that was an understatement. I would have been worse.
We were in a group and had to be lined up, in order, freaky. My being #1 put me into more of a spot. HK we could go through in any order, they were polite and friendly. I love HK. China, no, freaky, was so happy to get out of there.
We(just my friend and I) also did a day tour of Zhuhai from Macau. Long time to process visa and lot's of checks on the computer coming and going. Had an eery feeling.
Didn't care for it. About 500 soldiers, police lingering around. I gave one a very dirty look http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif (stupid, I know) leaving as we were about to get back to the no man's land, then Macau(Portugese at the time) and HK was British at the time. I was so happy to get out of there you have no idea. Maybe the guard towers and barbed wire made it more eery!?
Plus, I have heard countless stories about China in this way. I would put China below the US, maybe as well several African countries which can be nasty. That is still not much of a compliment for our country at that.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif