skofarrell
Sep 24, 01, 9:21 pm
The typical disclaimers: This is my first trip report, very long, feedback most welcome (really)
The trip: YYZ-ORD-LAS-ORD-YYZ on UA. September 20-23. Venetian Hotel.
This trip has been on the books for a while. Travel has slowed down for me considerably; I needed the 4K miles from this trip, plus a run to SIN in November to make 2002 PE. To add to the fun, my host at the Venetian had recently quit, so his supervisor was “taking care of me”. As of this point, I don’t yet have a real host, and the VP that is “taking care of me” isn’t great at returning calls. Losing a host in Vegas is never a fun thing; I had a nice relationship with my old one. I kept likening it to breaking up with a high school girlfriend, much to my wife’s chagrin.
Checked Schedule / Checked Schedule / Checked It Again
On 9/17 I checked United’s schedule via ual.com to make sure that my outbound 10:10am flight, connecting to the 11:50am Vegas flight (and the return 7:55 LAS-ORD and 2:45 ORD-YYZ) were going to survive the cuts. I was also worried that the “new security cruelty” might force delays as the airlines and pax tried to figure how things worked in our new world. My 55 min connection time seemed iffy, so I decided to try out the new UA non-y-fare flexibility. I called the international reservations number, and asked to be moved to the 8:10 flight. I figured it was worth some extra time in Chicago to make sure that I could get to Vegas. The helpful agent confirmed that NF space was still available and moved me over without a fuss. On the 18th, I looked at the schedule again and noticed that my 9/23 7:55 LAS-ORD has been cancelled. Called international rez again, and reluctantly moved to the 6:45 flight. For grins on the 19th, I looked at the sched one more time, and noticed that the 7:55 had returned. One more call to international rez and got the comment “what do you know, they decided to bring it back”. I asked, “Please, give me some more sleep and move me”. He said “Sure”, and I was back to the normal schedule. Moral of the story so far: checking pays off.
Pearson T2, Immigration, Customs and Security
The air travel hysteria hit a peak in the Toronto media as soon as Pearson airport reopened. There were a large number of articles and video about check-in lines snaking out the door for domestic travel, and delays at transborder running into the multiple hours. The advice was to get there 2-3 hours ahead of time if you wanted to make the flight. Like the sucker I am, I got up at 5am and left the house at 5:45 for the 20-minute drive to Pearson. Arriving at the airport by just before 6am, I couldn’t help but notice that I was the only person in Terminal 2. I walked up to UA’s First Class check-in, and got lectured for showing up so late for the flight (she assumed that I was trying for the 6:30 YYZ-ORD). I informed her that I was a sucker for listening to the hype, and that I was here for the 8:10. She immediately softened and asked, “Do you want to try for the 6:30?” I said that I’d try at the gate, as I was sure there’d be a line at immigration/customs. Leaving the desk, I was stopped a total of 3 times between the UA check-in and Immigration, all 3 times by T2 security people looking for boarding passes. The first one was a normal check, the other 2 were new. Turning the corner at Immigration I was greeted by 10 or so agents on duty with no one in line. I also noticed that the INSPass machines were still roped off, but an agent said they should go back into use on the 22nd or so. Good news. I answered the perfunctory questions that always come with being an American living and working in Canada, and went to customs. For the first time in memory I didn’t get the automatic “waive through” at customs, instead getting a couple of probing questions. The last one was “Where are you staying in Vegas?” I told him the Venetian; he nodded his approval and waived me through. Now for the final trial: security. They had every lane open, and I had no wait to get to x-ray and through the metal detector. As my custom, I had completely emptied my pockets into my carryon, but for the first time in memory, I still set off the detector. They wanded me (it looked like they were wanding everyone) and waived me through. They did not open my bag, did not check my cellphone or Ipaq. I felt disappointed that it wasn’t more thorough and that the Security people weren’t more diligent. They were the same caliber of underpaid unmotivated security workers that seem to be common across North America.
To ORD
Since I was now more than 2 hours early I went to the 6:30 departure gate and asked to be moved onto earlier the flight. “No problem”, a couple of clicks later and I was moved, but they could not confirm First on the earlier ORD-LAS flight. I figured that I could deal with it in Chicago, so I accepted the boarding pass for the 6:30 flight. Differences here: Passports was checked when they took the boarding pass. There was a roving security person wearing rubber gloves randomly inspecting carry on bags in the waiting area. The load was exactly 19 people on an A320. 7 in first (me and 6 non-rev crew). Flight was uneventful, with a very nice scrambled egg breakfast in a bowl or the fruit/cereal. Plastic knives, a warning from the pilot that waiting by the lav was no longer allowed. That warning, the plastic knife, and general crew nervousness were unwelcome reminders of current events.
“Snarfed” To Vegas
Upon arriving in Chicago, I headed through the T1 B concourse to the RCC. It was the quietest Friday morning at O’Hare that I had ever seen. The slowness at T1 coupled with the empty YYZ-ORD flight kept me thinking of one word: “scary”. After dropping the RCC card on the first level on the “B” concourse RCC, I headed up the escalator to the RCC rez agents. I gave them my sad story about arriving too early, and a very nice agent named Pam went to work to see if I could A). Get to Vegas early, and B). Stay in First. “Uh-oh.” Pam said. I replied that “Uh-oh” wasn’t something that I liked to hear check-in agents say. She said that First and coach were still full on the 9am ORD-LAS, and that the Toronto gate agent “unboarded me” from my 11:50 ORD-LAS flight. “OK”, I said, can you “reboard me?” Trouble was as helpful Pam explained, my seat on the 11:50 has been “snarfed” by someone else, she could accommodate me in coach and waitlist me for first. I set my jaw, explained that 10,000 of my hard earned miles got me the upgrade months ago, and implored her to “look outside the box” for another solution. She furrowed her brow and did a dance on the keyboard. “How about an 8:00 ORD-LAX, then the Sh*ttle to LAS, all in First? Should get me there about an hour sooner than the 11:50, and soles my “unboarding” dilemma. She saw the revulsion sweep across my face at the mention of the Sh*ttle, and said, “plus $200” in vouchers and your 10K miles back for the trouble. I figured that it was more than fair. Moving was better than waiting, and I got on my way.
Off to LAX.
The flight to flight to LAX was totally uneventful. Coach was full, First was 75% full. No one sat next to me. Upon arrival (approx 10:30am or so pacific time), the same “empty” syndrome was in effect in LA. The UA terminal was the quietest I’d ever seen. I checked the board and noticed that my Sh*ttle flight has the dreaded “Delayed” next to it. I went to the empty customer service counter, we looked into the flight and the agent informed me that it was mechanical. If it cancelled, I could get on the 1:50, getting me to LAS at 3pm, or about an hour and a half later than my original rez. Ugh. So much for trying to beat the system. At that point, I thought a peaceful drive across the desert sounded better than hanging out at LAX for the better part of the next 4-5 hours. I asked the agent to “unboard me” from the Sh*ttle flight, got assurance that my other segments wouldn’t be cancelled and made my move for the Hertz bus, cell phone in hand.
Neverlost to Vegas
I booked a full size one way to LAS over the phone for $43. I was told that I couldn’t use gold service due to the immediacy of my rental, and was instructed to go to the gold counter at the remote lot. Upon arriving, another helpful agent mentioned that they had a Lincoln that needed to be returned to Las Vegas. A Lincoln Navigator to be specific. Would I mind driving that car? I mentioned that the fuel would be a lot more than a Taurus, she comped me a fuel prepay, and I was on my way. The Lincoln Navigator can only be classified as a “land yacht”. This thing is huge. The two most noticeable features on this gas guzzler is the seating for 30, and the Neverlost terminal. Neverlost is Hertz’s dash mounted GPS/Map combo. The map software covers the western half of the US, the GPS terminal looks for a number of satellites to plot you position and marries it up with the map software. I’ve read articles on Neverlost, but this was my first chance to try it out. After warning you about not trying to use the terminal while driving (!), I typed in my destination: Venetian Hotel in Las Vegas. The software came up with the Venetian restaurant in LA, and the Venetian Body Shop in Pasadena, but no Venetian Hotel. Hmmm… How about the Mirage, directly across the street? Bing! The choice was shortest distance, fastest route, most use of freeways. I had the omnipotent Navigator, so I selected “Shortest distance” assuming that a mountainous dirt road or two should be no problem for my mean machine. Coordinates laid in, warp one, make it so, and we were on our way. The Neverlost was flawless. She directed me onto each freeway, gave me a nice happy beep when I made the right turns. Sadly, no dirt roads were selected.
LAX-LAS via I-15
I made my way out of town and I was immediatley struck by the way the country was supported itself during this troubled time. The huge display of flags, the homemade signs on each overpass filled me with a great deal of pride to be an American. MY country was not going to buckle. I think that being in Canada for the last 18 months has made me even more in touch with my "inner patriot". The support that my family and I have received in the last few weeks by my Canadian co-workers and neighbors has been truly awesome. The drive was uneventful, Ms. NeverLost confidently guiding me on the way, never getting mad if I purposely tried to foul her up (by pulling off for food, or nature call), she happily “recalculated” my route, and guided be back on the chosen path. I began to wish for a “surly” switch as she was just a little too nice, a little too happy, a little too accommodating of my human lack of direction. For those of you that haven’t made the drive, the trip is spectacular. The mountains outside of LA and Riverside are gorgeous, the Mohave desert is stunning., the Joshua Trees are from another planet. Stopped in Baker to see the “World’s Largest Thermometer.” Next thing I know, I’m in Vegas. I returned the car to the airport, called the Venetian for a pick up, took the Hertz shuttle back to the terminal, and met the driver at check-in. Just under 3.5 hours, slightly ahead of my orignal schedule, and felling better at seeing the mountains and desert up close.
Viva Las Vegas
As a parting gift, my old host comped me into a Piazza suite. The standard rooms at the Venetian are the best in Vegas, weighing in at 650 square feet; each room has a mini-bar and bathtub. The Piazza suites are about twice as big, weighing in at around 1500 square feet with a wet bar, 4 (!) TVs and a bathroom with a full Jacuzzi. The bathroom are awsome, basically bigger than my first apartment. They sit on the top (36th) floor of the hotel. In the past I had asked my host for this room when my wife is with me, as it goes to waste when I’m by myself (or with the guys). It was a nice touch that he took care of me before he left. The funny thing is there are even bigger rooms at the Venetian, but as a “medium roller”, I haven’t been able to weasel one yet. Taking Quiet Lion’s advice, I asked for and received a room with a north view (he mentioned that the construction was pretty bad on the other sides). The Venetian was the slowest that I’d ever seen. I normally go to Vegas the week before Christmas, which is very slow. Business this weekend was slower than Christmas. Over the course of the weekend, there wasn’t a single time that I saw all of the tables open. The dealers were complaining that they were being reduced to working 2 days per week, and that layoffs were happening all over town. One dealer mentioned that the Aladdin was having solvency issues and could be the first “new” casino to close. I did notice that the high limit slot machines and video poker machines were not paying. I also nocouldn't help but notice that at 9pm on a Friday night that I was the only player in the entire room. I’m not sure if the Venetian had cranked the profitability meter up, or if the machines were not getting enough action, but I was tired of getting cleaned out. I stopped playing then on Friday night (switching to tables) as it wasn’t any fun consistently losing. Dinner Friday night was at Delmonico’s, Emeril’s steak house. Fabulous as usual, with the sommelier turning a group of rowdy guys on to an excellent Cab from the “Nickel and Nickel” vineyard. If you can find a bottle, get it, as it was terrific. Saturday was enjoyed with a lot of Caribbean Stud, rounded out with 3 Card Poker, a very evil addicting game.
LAS-ORD-YYZ
Sunday morning, back to YYZ, through Chicago. Arrived 90 minutes before flight (allowing an extra 30 over the very accessible Vegas airport). Check-in was a breeze, the only new question was if I had a work permit for Canada. Never been asked that one by a United employee before, typically the US passport was enough. They were checking ID’s before the metal detector. This time, my belt did not set it off. No bag search or cellphone or Ipaq check here either. The fights back were uneventful. The load on the 7:55am flight was less than 50% in first and 70% in coach. I was surprised that it was that full given the shenanigans of canceling and un-canceling the flight earlier in the week. ORD-YYZ was full in coach, 6/8 in First. Again, no one was sitting next to me, a first in my United flying career, 4 flights in a row with an empty seat next to me. We arrived back in Toronto about 45 min late as a non-connecting pax did not make the fight, but his bag did, prompting an unload of the miscreant bag. Customs in Toronto was easy, since I didn’t check a bag, I was in my car and on the 401 home 15 minutes after landing.
[This message has been edited by skofarrell (edited 09-25-2001).]
The trip: YYZ-ORD-LAS-ORD-YYZ on UA. September 20-23. Venetian Hotel.
This trip has been on the books for a while. Travel has slowed down for me considerably; I needed the 4K miles from this trip, plus a run to SIN in November to make 2002 PE. To add to the fun, my host at the Venetian had recently quit, so his supervisor was “taking care of me”. As of this point, I don’t yet have a real host, and the VP that is “taking care of me” isn’t great at returning calls. Losing a host in Vegas is never a fun thing; I had a nice relationship with my old one. I kept likening it to breaking up with a high school girlfriend, much to my wife’s chagrin.
Checked Schedule / Checked Schedule / Checked It Again
On 9/17 I checked United’s schedule via ual.com to make sure that my outbound 10:10am flight, connecting to the 11:50am Vegas flight (and the return 7:55 LAS-ORD and 2:45 ORD-YYZ) were going to survive the cuts. I was also worried that the “new security cruelty” might force delays as the airlines and pax tried to figure how things worked in our new world. My 55 min connection time seemed iffy, so I decided to try out the new UA non-y-fare flexibility. I called the international reservations number, and asked to be moved to the 8:10 flight. I figured it was worth some extra time in Chicago to make sure that I could get to Vegas. The helpful agent confirmed that NF space was still available and moved me over without a fuss. On the 18th, I looked at the schedule again and noticed that my 9/23 7:55 LAS-ORD has been cancelled. Called international rez again, and reluctantly moved to the 6:45 flight. For grins on the 19th, I looked at the sched one more time, and noticed that the 7:55 had returned. One more call to international rez and got the comment “what do you know, they decided to bring it back”. I asked, “Please, give me some more sleep and move me”. He said “Sure”, and I was back to the normal schedule. Moral of the story so far: checking pays off.
Pearson T2, Immigration, Customs and Security
The air travel hysteria hit a peak in the Toronto media as soon as Pearson airport reopened. There were a large number of articles and video about check-in lines snaking out the door for domestic travel, and delays at transborder running into the multiple hours. The advice was to get there 2-3 hours ahead of time if you wanted to make the flight. Like the sucker I am, I got up at 5am and left the house at 5:45 for the 20-minute drive to Pearson. Arriving at the airport by just before 6am, I couldn’t help but notice that I was the only person in Terminal 2. I walked up to UA’s First Class check-in, and got lectured for showing up so late for the flight (she assumed that I was trying for the 6:30 YYZ-ORD). I informed her that I was a sucker for listening to the hype, and that I was here for the 8:10. She immediately softened and asked, “Do you want to try for the 6:30?” I said that I’d try at the gate, as I was sure there’d be a line at immigration/customs. Leaving the desk, I was stopped a total of 3 times between the UA check-in and Immigration, all 3 times by T2 security people looking for boarding passes. The first one was a normal check, the other 2 were new. Turning the corner at Immigration I was greeted by 10 or so agents on duty with no one in line. I also noticed that the INSPass machines were still roped off, but an agent said they should go back into use on the 22nd or so. Good news. I answered the perfunctory questions that always come with being an American living and working in Canada, and went to customs. For the first time in memory I didn’t get the automatic “waive through” at customs, instead getting a couple of probing questions. The last one was “Where are you staying in Vegas?” I told him the Venetian; he nodded his approval and waived me through. Now for the final trial: security. They had every lane open, and I had no wait to get to x-ray and through the metal detector. As my custom, I had completely emptied my pockets into my carryon, but for the first time in memory, I still set off the detector. They wanded me (it looked like they were wanding everyone) and waived me through. They did not open my bag, did not check my cellphone or Ipaq. I felt disappointed that it wasn’t more thorough and that the Security people weren’t more diligent. They were the same caliber of underpaid unmotivated security workers that seem to be common across North America.
To ORD
Since I was now more than 2 hours early I went to the 6:30 departure gate and asked to be moved onto earlier the flight. “No problem”, a couple of clicks later and I was moved, but they could not confirm First on the earlier ORD-LAS flight. I figured that I could deal with it in Chicago, so I accepted the boarding pass for the 6:30 flight. Differences here: Passports was checked when they took the boarding pass. There was a roving security person wearing rubber gloves randomly inspecting carry on bags in the waiting area. The load was exactly 19 people on an A320. 7 in first (me and 6 non-rev crew). Flight was uneventful, with a very nice scrambled egg breakfast in a bowl or the fruit/cereal. Plastic knives, a warning from the pilot that waiting by the lav was no longer allowed. That warning, the plastic knife, and general crew nervousness were unwelcome reminders of current events.
“Snarfed” To Vegas
Upon arriving in Chicago, I headed through the T1 B concourse to the RCC. It was the quietest Friday morning at O’Hare that I had ever seen. The slowness at T1 coupled with the empty YYZ-ORD flight kept me thinking of one word: “scary”. After dropping the RCC card on the first level on the “B” concourse RCC, I headed up the escalator to the RCC rez agents. I gave them my sad story about arriving too early, and a very nice agent named Pam went to work to see if I could A). Get to Vegas early, and B). Stay in First. “Uh-oh.” Pam said. I replied that “Uh-oh” wasn’t something that I liked to hear check-in agents say. She said that First and coach were still full on the 9am ORD-LAS, and that the Toronto gate agent “unboarded me” from my 11:50 ORD-LAS flight. “OK”, I said, can you “reboard me?” Trouble was as helpful Pam explained, my seat on the 11:50 has been “snarfed” by someone else, she could accommodate me in coach and waitlist me for first. I set my jaw, explained that 10,000 of my hard earned miles got me the upgrade months ago, and implored her to “look outside the box” for another solution. She furrowed her brow and did a dance on the keyboard. “How about an 8:00 ORD-LAX, then the Sh*ttle to LAS, all in First? Should get me there about an hour sooner than the 11:50, and soles my “unboarding” dilemma. She saw the revulsion sweep across my face at the mention of the Sh*ttle, and said, “plus $200” in vouchers and your 10K miles back for the trouble. I figured that it was more than fair. Moving was better than waiting, and I got on my way.
Off to LAX.
The flight to flight to LAX was totally uneventful. Coach was full, First was 75% full. No one sat next to me. Upon arrival (approx 10:30am or so pacific time), the same “empty” syndrome was in effect in LA. The UA terminal was the quietest I’d ever seen. I checked the board and noticed that my Sh*ttle flight has the dreaded “Delayed” next to it. I went to the empty customer service counter, we looked into the flight and the agent informed me that it was mechanical. If it cancelled, I could get on the 1:50, getting me to LAS at 3pm, or about an hour and a half later than my original rez. Ugh. So much for trying to beat the system. At that point, I thought a peaceful drive across the desert sounded better than hanging out at LAX for the better part of the next 4-5 hours. I asked the agent to “unboard me” from the Sh*ttle flight, got assurance that my other segments wouldn’t be cancelled and made my move for the Hertz bus, cell phone in hand.
Neverlost to Vegas
I booked a full size one way to LAS over the phone for $43. I was told that I couldn’t use gold service due to the immediacy of my rental, and was instructed to go to the gold counter at the remote lot. Upon arriving, another helpful agent mentioned that they had a Lincoln that needed to be returned to Las Vegas. A Lincoln Navigator to be specific. Would I mind driving that car? I mentioned that the fuel would be a lot more than a Taurus, she comped me a fuel prepay, and I was on my way. The Lincoln Navigator can only be classified as a “land yacht”. This thing is huge. The two most noticeable features on this gas guzzler is the seating for 30, and the Neverlost terminal. Neverlost is Hertz’s dash mounted GPS/Map combo. The map software covers the western half of the US, the GPS terminal looks for a number of satellites to plot you position and marries it up with the map software. I’ve read articles on Neverlost, but this was my first chance to try it out. After warning you about not trying to use the terminal while driving (!), I typed in my destination: Venetian Hotel in Las Vegas. The software came up with the Venetian restaurant in LA, and the Venetian Body Shop in Pasadena, but no Venetian Hotel. Hmmm… How about the Mirage, directly across the street? Bing! The choice was shortest distance, fastest route, most use of freeways. I had the omnipotent Navigator, so I selected “Shortest distance” assuming that a mountainous dirt road or two should be no problem for my mean machine. Coordinates laid in, warp one, make it so, and we were on our way. The Neverlost was flawless. She directed me onto each freeway, gave me a nice happy beep when I made the right turns. Sadly, no dirt roads were selected.
LAX-LAS via I-15
I made my way out of town and I was immediatley struck by the way the country was supported itself during this troubled time. The huge display of flags, the homemade signs on each overpass filled me with a great deal of pride to be an American. MY country was not going to buckle. I think that being in Canada for the last 18 months has made me even more in touch with my "inner patriot". The support that my family and I have received in the last few weeks by my Canadian co-workers and neighbors has been truly awesome. The drive was uneventful, Ms. NeverLost confidently guiding me on the way, never getting mad if I purposely tried to foul her up (by pulling off for food, or nature call), she happily “recalculated” my route, and guided be back on the chosen path. I began to wish for a “surly” switch as she was just a little too nice, a little too happy, a little too accommodating of my human lack of direction. For those of you that haven’t made the drive, the trip is spectacular. The mountains outside of LA and Riverside are gorgeous, the Mohave desert is stunning., the Joshua Trees are from another planet. Stopped in Baker to see the “World’s Largest Thermometer.” Next thing I know, I’m in Vegas. I returned the car to the airport, called the Venetian for a pick up, took the Hertz shuttle back to the terminal, and met the driver at check-in. Just under 3.5 hours, slightly ahead of my orignal schedule, and felling better at seeing the mountains and desert up close.
Viva Las Vegas
As a parting gift, my old host comped me into a Piazza suite. The standard rooms at the Venetian are the best in Vegas, weighing in at 650 square feet; each room has a mini-bar and bathtub. The Piazza suites are about twice as big, weighing in at around 1500 square feet with a wet bar, 4 (!) TVs and a bathroom with a full Jacuzzi. The bathroom are awsome, basically bigger than my first apartment. They sit on the top (36th) floor of the hotel. In the past I had asked my host for this room when my wife is with me, as it goes to waste when I’m by myself (or with the guys). It was a nice touch that he took care of me before he left. The funny thing is there are even bigger rooms at the Venetian, but as a “medium roller”, I haven’t been able to weasel one yet. Taking Quiet Lion’s advice, I asked for and received a room with a north view (he mentioned that the construction was pretty bad on the other sides). The Venetian was the slowest that I’d ever seen. I normally go to Vegas the week before Christmas, which is very slow. Business this weekend was slower than Christmas. Over the course of the weekend, there wasn’t a single time that I saw all of the tables open. The dealers were complaining that they were being reduced to working 2 days per week, and that layoffs were happening all over town. One dealer mentioned that the Aladdin was having solvency issues and could be the first “new” casino to close. I did notice that the high limit slot machines and video poker machines were not paying. I also nocouldn't help but notice that at 9pm on a Friday night that I was the only player in the entire room. I’m not sure if the Venetian had cranked the profitability meter up, or if the machines were not getting enough action, but I was tired of getting cleaned out. I stopped playing then on Friday night (switching to tables) as it wasn’t any fun consistently losing. Dinner Friday night was at Delmonico’s, Emeril’s steak house. Fabulous as usual, with the sommelier turning a group of rowdy guys on to an excellent Cab from the “Nickel and Nickel” vineyard. If you can find a bottle, get it, as it was terrific. Saturday was enjoyed with a lot of Caribbean Stud, rounded out with 3 Card Poker, a very evil addicting game.
LAS-ORD-YYZ
Sunday morning, back to YYZ, through Chicago. Arrived 90 minutes before flight (allowing an extra 30 over the very accessible Vegas airport). Check-in was a breeze, the only new question was if I had a work permit for Canada. Never been asked that one by a United employee before, typically the US passport was enough. They were checking ID’s before the metal detector. This time, my belt did not set it off. No bag search or cellphone or Ipaq check here either. The fights back were uneventful. The load on the 7:55am flight was less than 50% in first and 70% in coach. I was surprised that it was that full given the shenanigans of canceling and un-canceling the flight earlier in the week. ORD-YYZ was full in coach, 6/8 in First. Again, no one was sitting next to me, a first in my United flying career, 4 flights in a row with an empty seat next to me. We arrived back in Toronto about 45 min late as a non-connecting pax did not make the fight, but his bag did, prompting an unload of the miscreant bag. Customs in Toronto was easy, since I didn’t check a bag, I was in my car and on the 401 home 15 minutes after landing.
[This message has been edited by skofarrell (edited 09-25-2001).]