Trip Reports - Children should be seen – and disemboweled – A tale of LHR-ZRH-TLV

This was a very simple flight from LHR to TLV – just 2 days of business. The first time I flew to TLV was using this route. The lovely Tracey our Amex Travel plant, had uncovered this C fare via ZRH, which works out £100 cheaper than a BA full Y. I would have tried and gone with LH via FRA, but I am not on a full blown mileage build ( I already got my 100k miles for the year) I was interested to compare the flight now that I have sampled more C fares on different airlines. At the time I was most impressed, it being my first real business class and all. It also made me fall in love with the airbus 330-200.

My limo picked me up at the office on time and deposited me without any issue at TS LHR. As this is almost a night flight and TLV treats priority luggage so well, I figured I’d check the bag in. No time for the lounge, picked up some underwear at hacketts (forgot to pack any !!!!) and on to the gate. The lounge for those of you not in the know at LHR is one of the serviceair shared ones. Its not all that, but then with the exception of the virgin lounge in T3 none of the lounges are that great in my opinion.

The flight pushed back on time and we didn’t have much of a wait for a spot. The meal on the flight was chicken in a tomato sauce, with pasta shells with a basil coating, a fruit tarte and coffee. Seeing the champagne was Lanson Black, I opted for a glass or two. The meal was actually quite good for a hoppa (<2 hours) and after a single circuit we landed. A bus to the terminal left me with a 5 minute walk to B34.

Boarding took quite a while, and as there is no separate boarding for C you get to see all kinds of life. Most interesting if not worrying was the non-orthodox Jew praying and the orthodox reading a comic. The look on a kids (<10) face when I took my contact lenses out, and all the people going ahhhhhh when a baby started gurgling. A demonic gurgle…..

In typical Swiss fashion the plane boarded on time, however it was the announcement that triggered the demon, bealsibub, the number 666 glowed from its forehead – that’s right. The baby started screaming. 12 and half pounds of screaming **** machine, breaking FCC approved levels of noise pollution.

I boarded and took me seat, 7D. The amenity pack as ever on SR was superb, the devils offspring was not far behind.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Through seats 7,8,9,10, and into economy it went, whist not visible the sound bored into each ear like a pair of well fitting hammer drills. While I tried to find the 6inch nails and hammer I always carry for such a situation, (just like a vacuum, you cant hear the screams when the kid is nailed to the wing), the brat made a move


Row 10,9,8, oh my god – please stop the pain.

‘Is there a doctor in the airport ??’ came the answer’. ‘Yes but you’ll need to leave the plane’. That’s ok, well fly in the morning – we can get our bags in TLV. No I am sorry we will need to get your bags of the plane.

And so the 21.10 finally left ZRH at 22.16, because some parents in the preceding 2 hours had not been able to detect that their spawn was ill.

Unfair on them – YES YES YES. Dogs are given a sedative and placed in the hold. Why not children. Of course they boarded with a quantity of hand luggage any serious FT’er would get nailed for, but cos they have a baby its justified,

The flight itself, well the seat is pretty good, as per any Airbus Ive been one. The food – not bad, the salmon salad was wonderful. The veal with cep sauce, not bad. Will I do it again, well ill return in 2 days, but from now on ill go through FRA or VIE. Good service and miles – isn’t that what its all about.

Don’t bother flaming – 24 years and a serial single – Ive said it before, if at the age of 30 you have a need to demonstrate you still have sex, take pictures than at the most inappropriate and in crowded area’s show them to complete strangers,. You’ll have the same affect. – And ill no doubt say it again

Jon

Originally posted by jongar:


Don’t bother flaming – 24 years and a serial single – Ive said it before . . . And ill no doubt say it again.

No, please don't. It was neither funny nor appropriate the first time.

I guess everyone has an opinion.......mine is that this is an inappropriate header from someone that was probably a child once too.

I'm relieved to know that I am not alone in my opinion of children and flying.

Now what will I do?????

I just got married. My wife and her entire family is from Europe. We are both going to be living in the U.S. and she wants 4 children. None of her family has ever been to the U.S. and since she is close to her family, I am sure she will want to bring her children back home.

How long do cruise ships take???

Jongar, InIndiana,IMHO you should refrain from generalizing all kids as bad travellers, since the main problem with most kids is that they are infrequent travellers. That being said, they share the EXACT same problems as infrequent travelling adults. Common logic would suggest that kids who travel enough to earn elite status or fly a lot in premium cabins would gain a good understanding of how to behave while travelling.
The problem with adults who dislike Kids flying has many aspects. Firstly, I think lots of people on this board have trouble comprehending the amount of travelling some kids do these days, . As a younger FT member (25) I am thankful for growing up in a time and in an environment that allowed me to travel significantly each year growing up ( around 40k each year fyi)
Seocndly, Adults, including myself, often hold the beleif that the reason we are traveling is more important than what the kid next to us is on the go for. Unless you are saving the world it is arogant for one to assume that their dot com meetings are more important than kids spending time with their families.
What it all boils down to is that more kids are travelling, so there are more bad apples, but by the same token, more kid ff's who know the game and prove that it is wrong to "disembowel" all kids

disemboweled?

Wow! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

CTANK said it well! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Well, from a country that brought you Double W Bush, come the usual liberal mixture of rubbish, for those of you travling with infants, toddlers or brats, dont consider the front cabins, you gave up comfort when you had children. Consider the other PAX who paid or are being paid a considerable sum to either proepare for business or saving the world. Then consider, wieghed down with all the crap, you carry, getting a seat at the front isnt nessasary, for that reason do the abnormal, sit right at the back of the plane, if they start screaming and your unable to control or silence them, have a look in the front cabin for a 6"5 blonde hair, 24 year old, chances are he has a roll of ducK tape and some a hammer/nail set.

Jon

(lets see the americans rile themselves again)

Originally posted by jongar:


Dogs are given a sedative and placed in the hold. Why not . . .

Yes, that's it! Why not jongar? You can take your duct tape, hammer and nails, sedatives, and pictures of yourself having sex and retreat to the hold, where surely you will be able to resume saving the world http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif, uninterupted by other innocent human beings. Please be sure to post a trip report! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I recall having a similar attitude to jongar…..prior to the birth of my two wonderful sons. It's amazing how having kids changes your perspective on life. In a nutshell you go from "the world is all about me" to "my world is all about my kids", overnight. Cut jongar some slack. He just hasn't experienced the selfless joy that children bring to one's life. Poor guy.

...and let's hope he never does. Infanticide is a crime in the land of Jack the Ripper as well. Maybe I can see the wisdom in the recent posts about BA's ban on seating unaccompanied minors next to male passengers. Perhaps jongar had something to do with this. This kind of animosity towards children usually is because someone was abused as a child themselves. I could go on but I don't treat people over the internet. Given this is coming from a 24 year old male, hopefully this is just misplaced adolescent humor.

A few points.....

1.) I am 18 years old and in my senior year of high school. I object to and am insulted by this sweeping generalization that all people in school or still living at home are stupid little brats. Judging from your infantile attitude, immature comments, and potty mouth, jongar, you seem as if you shout just as loudly on airplanes with your complaining as the little kids you wish to disembowel.

2.) Not all children behave poorly on aircraft. Yes, there are babies who cry and those who rarely travel who do not know how to behave, but adults who rarely travel don't know how to behave. Let's see... I seem to recall that individual who defecated all over the United First Class serving trolley was a middle aged business man. Same with the man who assaulted an old woman on a LHR-ORD AA flight because she reclined her seat a little while he was "working on all important laptop business presentations." Get over your arrogance. You seem to be one of those adult whiners who sits on airline flights and talks aloud (so everybody else can hear you) about how bad the airline is and how you are "elite level frequent flyer who deserves better treatment" that makes those around you whip out the duct tape.

I like to think I behave myself on board airline flights. Last year I flew enough to make Elite level with TWA and earn enough for a free ticket with HP/CO plus smatterings of miles with Northwest and American. I dress appropriately, even more so when I'm flying in First with TWA as I believe those in the front cabin should dress nicely. I don't run up and down the aisles slapping everybody with a ruler. Should I be sedated and put in the cargo hold? Please tell me if you feel that way. I'd be more than happy to do it and let you have your preparations for saving the world in utter silence and peace, because, after all, I'm a teenager who's flying and must be disemboweled for that reason.

Oh, and don't worry... if I'm ever seated next to you on a flight, I won't talk to you because I realize, thanks to you, my inferior position in the scope of things. Thank you so much for putting me in my place.



------------------
Jason Seiple
OMA

jongar, you are a SICKO! You actually have the gall to say that children should be disemboweled! You were a child once; is there some reason you were allowed to live but children today should not?

I've read posts from people who don't like kids in F, and I've read posts from people who don't like kids on the plane at all. I disagree with those opinions, but that's all. What you have written is not merely an opinion; it indicates a serious psychological problem.

I pray my children never go near you on a plane or anywhere for that matter. You are the type of person who commits unspeakable crimes, because you have no conscience. Note that I didn't say you did commit a crime, I said you are the type of person who does.

Please get some help before you do something that a human with a conscience would regret.

what I should have actually observed is that the children are not really the problem, it is the parents who refuse to control their children. My parents never let me get away with anything loud and problem causing when I was a kid--I was taught to behave in public.

I once had a screaming baby two rows in front of me and one two rows behind me. The parents seemed to encourage it, not discourage it. I was the one with the riproaring headache.

You hit the nail on the head. Its entirely the parents that are to blame, not the kids. Last week on a flight back from HNL to SFO a mother let her 4 year old repeatedly run up and down the entire length of the plane, pushing aside everyone in the aisles. When waiting in line for the bathroom, he stepped on my feet, which wasn't comfortable since I was wearing open sandals, and I asked him to watch where he was going. The mother started berating me, if you can believe it, telling me he was just a kid and I should be more tolerant. I told her she needed to control her child, and her only answer was "you must not have childred". I replied that was not relevant, since the 10 other parents with children on the plane were somehow able to keep their kids at least in the vicinity of their seats. Unbelievable sometimes.

Unless a parent has some twisted desire to deafen other passengers, they aren't encouraging their babies to cry. It's natural for a baby to cry, because he/she can't communicate any other way.

One of my babies cried all the time, but another of mine rarely cried (and never cried on the plane). Same parenting in both cases! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

If my young kids (age 3 and 5) bump into someone or steps on someone's toes, I immediately apologize. Even in New York, I've noticed that parents almost always apologize when their kids do that (really easy to step on toes on the bus or the subway).

However, if the person is rude, I'm not going to be apologetic. I will explain nicely why that happened, but if you're rude you're not going to get an apology. Little kids don't do things like that on purpose -- they're still learning how to be careful where they step, and lashing out at them doesn't help.

So far, I have not had one problem on board an aircraft (worst case was a woman saw my baby, and she moved to another seat). And I have never, ever had a problem on the bus or subway, no matter how crowded, and I have taken my kids on public transport hundreds of times more often than on a plane! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Only situation was on the street.

[This message has been edited by JS (edited 03-21-2001).]

InIndiana, glad to see there are some normal people still around. Whilst I am sure having children is a wonderful experience, it is not one I want to go through at my time in life. There are far more importnat things in life to deal with, like girls, money and fast cars.

Seiple, if you at 18 still cry on flights, then I am very sorry, seek out a therapist. If i mention in a post a large amount of luggage, infants, children (<10 means less than age 10) then it is safe to assume i dont mean an 18 year old, if that is your interpretation my I also recommend you stay at high school a little longer. I dont feel i made any sweeping generalization, I was definatly refering to children - do you consier your self a child or childish ?? At 18 most people including the law would consider you an adult. Hell in some states you could marry a cousin at your age. And as for dressing nice - ?? The modern era calls for dress appropiate. If I am walking into a meeting of a flight I wear a suit, otherwise its a rugby shirt and chino's and a pair of slipon shoes. However I dress you can be sure that mr chin down the road ironed it to perfection.

flytoeat, I am insulted by your post. To think I would ever fly BA, is a gross injustice, they are the only group of people I could legitimatley class as more arrogant than myself. As for your psycoligical profiling - please stick to something your good at. Abuse - Well maybe, if you consider being strapped for testing my football could break glass repeatedly. As to being a peodaphile - If she's in a bar, she's legal rates slightly below even my degradent moral code and given I have a 12 year old sister I find that kind of accusation highly offencive possibly slanderous given that this is a public forum. If I was to suggest you molest your children would you take it in your stride ?? This isnt an animosity towards children. Its an animosity to inconsideration. I was taught - by the same abusing father - to open doors for others, to say please and thankyou and to show above all condideration and tolerance for others. The last two however, condideration and tolerance, are a two way deal. Stop me sleeping or working and I will come about thee in a most uncristian manner most likely ridicule you in front of your colleages and co-travellers. To cause physical harm to an infant - GET A SENSE OF HUMOUR - I appreciate that satire and irony are a form of comedy not fully appreciated by our cousins on the other side of the pond, but dont worry, from June 10, I will be among you permanently, and you will learn.

JS, What can I possibly type thant would allow you to understand that it is impossible to escape from a plane at 35K having killed a baby with out a dramatic loss in cabin presssure. I think you will find if you read back through this thread that maybe, just maybe people over react. Especially highschoolers flying first class on I assume a well paying newspaper round or trust fund.



Have a nice day http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

ps thank heavens i didnt put email notification on this post.

edited for typos and additional comment

[This message has been edited by jongar (edited 03-22-2001).]

Jongar, not only are you setting Anglo-American relations back by decades, but you seem to be enjoying it.

I would stack my six-year-old son's inflight behavior up against that of most flying adults I observe, and on the evidence you provide I daresay he makes a more agreeable seatmate than you.

Adults, not children, create most inflight disruptions. It is men matching your demographic profile, for example, who get drunk, beat up flight attendants and force unscheduled landings. Statistically people should be more wary of sitting next to people like you than people like my child.

Thank you for the lecture about what satire is. It would be deeply wrong, OMNI-tangential and ad hominem provocative of me to point out that were it not for your country's weak and corrupt leadership it would still be safe to eat meat and have a stroll in the country, and if it weren't for my grandfather and his friends you'd all be driving Volkswagens today. So I'll refrain. But lest you tempt me further, stow the condescension to those more mature than you re: satire and irony.

Edited by Tango.

[This message has been edited by Tango (edited 03-23-2001).]

BearX220 and Tango, thankyou for proving me wrong. To be satired by an american is truly a first, and I am most gratful. As to my demographic profile should that not also contain my hometown and earnings, I am proud to say i am an ABC1. As for my profile, the ones I see on the telly (BBC for the demgraph profilers) are usually the irish holidaymakers, who unable to control themselves faced with a 'free galley' do things I have not yet done, namely misbehave on a plane.

Tango http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif I usually fly Virgin longhaul to the states and SA and Lufthansa within Europe. on Virgin I always sit in seat 3J and 1C on LH. If you want I will fly LH to SFO in 1 week, I can post the details on the relevent page. Is your child allergic to adhesive vinyl ??

Jon

Bear,

Like the majority of americans I did not for my leader. I see him as a grinning fool, bouncing from crisis to crisis, sadly there is no one in the opposition who could do a better job.

As to Anglo-American relationships, I believe we have a 'special relationship'. We make oversized garish pastel coloured sweaters, and the yanks but them. Just like commenerative teaspoon's.

Jon

Edited by Tango.

[This message has been edited by Tango (edited 03-23-2001).]

Are we now also going to have "moderators" in the "Trip Reports" forum? Geeez! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

BearX220 wrote:


It would be deeply wrong, OMNI-tangential and ad hominem provocative of me to point out that were it not for your country's weak and corrupt leadership it would still be safe to eat meat and have a stroll in the country, and if it weren't for my grandfather and his friends you'd all be driving Volkswagens today.


Even as an childless Englishman in his mid-thirties (though married!) I was not on Jongars's side until I read your post.

Your knowledge of history seems to be based on the Holllywood version - I bet you loved U571 - and yes we have foot & mouth now for the first time since the 1960's. Let's all laugh when the USA gets it (again) ....

Robert.

[This message has been edited by bulkhead (edited 03-22-2001).]

Getting OMNI here, but regardless.... U571 was Americanized so the "heroes" or main characters would be American. That aside, if it weren't for the US soldiers who fought in WW2 there would be no star alliance or Oneworld, because BA would be LH......

This is some of the worst tripe I've ever seen on FT. And you wonder why some very knowledgeable & experienced people have left this board.

To all of you who responded to this topic, when are you going to learn? You just gave a TROLL more food... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif Without it they cannot exist!

Such egos! Sounds like some of you never left the ruler-in-the-nightstand stage. I loved the part where nationality became the flying pie. Are YOU proud of everything your government does?

What's with the jewelry rattling? You don't like what the guy says, so you imply that you're wallet is fatter than his? Why not list the year and model of your car, Rolex, and wife in your auto-signature? Virtual Viagra!

If the airlines had platinum halos that hovered 4" above your head, some of you would wear them all the time -- even to church.

Jongar: if you've got a wide fanny, or freckles, I suggest you keep it to yourself. Some of these people WOULD stoop to that level.

For you Americans out there: As an American myself, I know better than to comment on the travelling habits of other nationalities. Witnessing Americans travelling abroad can be extremely embarrasing -- more than any other group.

Disheartened.

Well, what could i say that would wind up our colleages on the other side of the pond. What have we (I) learned. There is a contingent of Americans, who read all the words but not the space between them, some are unable to distinguish between an over exagerated wittisism and real life. In future i may use a different choice of words, either that or post future posts en francais.

I took the trip originally to compare a previous flight, not to be tortured by an infant, who's parents were so engrossed in their escape on holiday, could not see thier child was ill until after a plane had boarded. Yes, I still feel that young children and thier parents should be seated as far from the high yield pax as possible. It is in the airlines best interest to keep those poeple happy.

And on a final note, the americans did not win the war for us. They assisted. Wee managed to contain the germans for 3.5 years, before requiring your services, and I seem to remember you only joined in when the japanese signed a treaty with the germans. could be wrong.

From the county that brought you the decryption and radar, have a nice day.

I am off to slaughter and burn a few hundred thousand sheep. What will we make those pastel coloured sweaters out of now ???

End of thread - I hope

Originally posted by jongar:
Well, what could i say that would wind up our colleages on the other side of the pond. What have we (I) learned. There is a contingent of Americans, who read all the words but not the space between them, some are unable to distinguish between an over exagerated wittisism and real life. In future i may use a different choice of words, either that or post future posts en francais.

I took the trip originally to compare a previous flight, not to be tortured by an infant, who's parents were so engrossed in their escape on holiday, could not see thier child was ill until after a plane had boarded. Yes, I still feel that young children and thier parents should be seated as far from the high yield pax as possible. It is in the airlines best interest to keep those poeple happy.


The best interest of the airlines is to seat everybody according to how much they pay, if parents pay F they sit F. SQ is an good example how F is kept something special.

How 'bout beginning the ceremony with castration and frontal lobotomy. Guess who?

Before that, you might consider returning to 3rd or 4th grade and learn 1) parsing, 2)
punctuation, and 3) simple spelling.

And please don't insult our George W. He may not be a Oxbridge double first but he sure beats the London Looney Tunes and Merry Melodies crowd. You really have a wonderful country but instead of burning the cows and sheep you should try turning the government over to them.

[This message has been edited by nathan detroit (edited 03-23-2001).]

"...End of thread - I hope

Indeed! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

BearX220 wrote:

...if it weren't for my grandfather and his friends you'd all be driving Volkswagens today.


CTANK wrote:


..if it weren't for the US soldiers who fought in WW2 there would be no star alliance or Oneworld, because BA would be LH


Britain *joined* WW2 because of the situation in Europe - not because it was being invaded. Didn't the USA do the same? Either country could have turned a blind eye.

So if you would like to point out the event history when Germany tried to invade the Britsh Isles then I'll beleive we'd be driving VW's (I don't) and flying LH (I occasionally do).

Robert.


[This message has been edited by bulkhead (edited 03-23-2001).]

Many complaints have two sides.

One of the things that really annoys Law Lord Jr. (a happy 2-1/2 year old) on an airplane is when the passenger next to him spends the trip clattering madly on a laptop or shouting into the airphone, because he can't concentrate on his coloring book.

He thinks it very rude of his seat-neighbor even when I explain that his mother does need to get the document finished before the plane lands. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

------------------
"If you want to win the game, write the rules."

Dear Mr. bulkhead: The Nazis did invade the British Isles. Ever been to Jersey?

As for the generally idiotic revisionist historical debate above, a few million people and tens of millions of their descendants who were never to be would surely be alive today if both countries had entered the war in Europe a lot earlier.

It further seems to me that "foot in mouth" is much more generally relevant to this thread than "foot and mouth".

{dupe post.}

[This message has been edited by essxjay (edited 03-24-2001).]

Britain *joined* WW2 because of the situation in Europe - not because it was being invaded. Didn't the USA do the same?

Actually, no. The US was attacked by Japan. Some dust-up in Hawaii, I seem to recall. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

jongar, the spelling, grammar and punctuation in your posts detract from the credibility of your argument. Clue: Word's spellcheck feature is F7 on your keyboard.

[This message has been edited by essxjay (edited 03-26-2001).]

Robert: I apologize for making a post regarding the history of WW2, i meant only to get the LH/BA joke across in this time of mergers and not to offend anyone with incorrect facts.

All: Since Jongar took it upon himself to insult my country, I childishly decided to insult his back. I understand that this is not condusive to building a better FT, for that I apologize.

regarding my spelling, i have a habit of typing live, perhaps that will change. i cannot however ask my assistant to proof read my posts. when she gets unhappy she alters my flights to include low colesterol or kosher food. just her little way of saying watch it sunshine. sorry for the lack of capitals but my shift key has died.

jon

RichG wrote:


A few million people and tens of millions of their descendants who were never to be would surely be alive today if both countries had entered the war in Europe a lot earlier.


I couldn't agree more. And I should have said the Britsh mainland. My point was simply that Britain *chose* to join the war, it was not being invaded. (Jersey was invaded after Britains declaration of war and the channel isles had been largely evacuated). I would say that most British people fully respect and are grateful for the American involvelemt in Europe during WW2, but do not feel they they were saved from German occupation.

Essxjay: You've accidentally attributed my comments about GB/USA to BearX220, but I stand corrected anyway. (Still can't see why Japan attacking Pearl Harbour saved me from driving a VW http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif)

CTANK: Thanks.




[This message has been edited by bulkhead (edited 03-25-2001).]

bulkhead, you're right about the misattribution. Sorry about that! I've fixed my post.

I thought Jongar's initial post was quite amusing. I didn't take any of his comments too seriously. I happen to love kids (if not their unparents). I was surprised tho, when he went on the attack against us poor Yanks. I guess we're all ignorant clods. Stereotyping has served us all so well around the world, particularly in the years preceding WWII and since! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

I take exception to 2 things:

1.
2.

Dan
On 2nd thought, I'll go the essxjay route.

[This message has been edited by dhammer53 (edited 03-27-2001).]

I think parents that absolutely insist on flying with babies should at least undertake to minimize the discomfort placed on the rest of the cabin should the baby start wailing.

Get your pediatrician to prescribe something to knock the kid out.



[This message has been edited by Carioca Canuck (edited 03-27-2001).]

a hammer ???

or drugs ??

Both

Somebody's just outta control.

Another attempt at humour, no doubt! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

How 'bout a meek laugh ( http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif) and closure? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I was hoping this thread was closed 20 posts ago. I will not post any more messages to this thread.

I am off to some Vikaden

The only thing worse than a screaming child in FC (or coach) is a complaining, crabby grown-up. I've only had the latter on recent trips, and boy, they really make me cringe.

If it kills the thread I AGREE