American Express Membership Rewards - AMEX at Xroads in Technology ?

Seems AMEX can't figure out if they *like*, or *dislike*...electronic payment services such as paypal, billpoint (ok, eBay payment services), C2IT (owned by Citibank), Bidpoint (affiliated with, if not owned by Western Union), Yahoo's "Paydirect", etc.

I was, well, elated, about 45 days ago when I learned AMEX would now be accepted by paypal...and I learned about it in these very webflyer threads...and was well into the process of diverting mid-5 figures in charges MONTHLY to AMEX from my V and M/C cards...then, abruptly, in the last 10 days it seems AMEX is not sure it desires charges that originate via paypal and other electronic paying services' either (i hear).

My experience now is AMEX allows a mere $1000 MONTHLY to pass through paypal or a paypal-type service...then locks the door (disallows charges to process without manual involvement).

And that's on PERSONAL/BUSINESS OPTIMA cards...on the corporate AMEC card side, I have been told NO charges are allowed (even corporate platinums w/ 6-figure line of credits). hhmm....puzzling indeed.

Seems to me AMEX is ALREADY WAY BEHIND the power curve in getting an ELECTRONIC PAYING SERVICE online in the first place. To then stifle even their ability to profit on the side from this new concept in paying bills...is indeed amazing.

Wells Fargo (part owner of paypal), Citibank (c2it.com), andBidpay (Western Union)...all seem to have taken the very obvious and bold step into the 21st Century and recognize this is, indeed, will be the year of transferring money electronically. I could almost see "PAYPAL.COM" on the cover as TIME's MAN OF THE YEAR this year. Intuitive on its face.

Well, maybe that's a bit overboard.

Yet, AMEX, to my great disappointment, has seemingly closed the door less than 60 days after they 'came online" at paypal. HELLO !!

Sometimes I really have to wonder at AMEX's managements' ability to look into the future (or not). While Citibank and Wells Fargo are flying into this technology..AMEX is getting left behind once again, like when AMEX turned down American Airlines bold new venture - the concept of a frequent flyer affinity club concept over 15yrs ago - and to their gross dismay (according to Forbes), have been shut out of the AAdvantage program ever since (ie Amex's Membership Rewards has never been able to get AAdvantage signed up because of their sleight so many years ago - plus, giving credit where credit is due...also due to Citibank's LOCK on AAdvantage).

Come on AMEX - dig into, and understand the dynamics of electronic payments...eBay and online internet sales have once again RE-DEFINED your world. Sit idly by and lose out this time in a major way.

ok...simple question - is anyone else actively using, or trying to use, AMEX at paypal or any of these other services ?

Please post regarding your experience...in last 10 days or so.

[This message has been edited by ILUVCITIBANK (edited 02-19-2002).]

I was happy to give you the good news about paypal and saddened to hear of its apparent demise (of sorts). How do paypal payments show on an AMEX statement? Are they considered cash advances? That's a total of 1K a month from all combined epayment services?

How does paypal etc.. work?

WhiteAMEX,

I believe the $1K/mo is per each separate independent electronic paying service....insomuch that I don't think AMEX can [yet] keep a running total, of sorts, per account, aggregate them together, and monitor on that basis. My understanding is they just track the dollar volume per eps ("electronic paying service" - ok...I coined that term here and now - like Chicago Bulls' coach trademarked "threepeat")...and close the valve at some number *which I heard* was $1000.

There is a way around this impasse, though its a hassle...If you take the time to CALL in to AMEX, ask for an "AUTHORIZER"...wait the typical 5-7min...and then request a 1x charge approval....they will still selectively let charges go through...but there's no certainty or predictability to it.

I met *so* many AMEX people this week on the phone who, themselves, could not quite figure out that AMEX at some higher level had semi-blocked paypal, bidpay, et al, that I gave up and just migrated back to my trust MC and V.

Gave up in disgust that AMEX didn't even brief thoroughly their first-line supervisors, facilitators, authorizers, customer service reps, etc...which made them look foolish trying to tell me (and no doubt hundreds of others in the last 2 weeks) why a legitimate charge would not go through...from an authorized AMEX merchant (which paypal is to this minute)....for a qualified purchase (not cash advance)...when there was no credit hold...and adequate line of credit was available...and account was current and in good standing. This issue stumped more than a few AMEX reps I have dealt with last few days.

Paypal, to their discredit also...never mentioned this apparent "Mexican" stand-off between paypal (and, again, most eps) and AMEX on their home page...or anywhere on their site...which literally left we consumers trying to figure out if there were credit issues, accounts not in good standing issues, paypal issues, or what in the world was causing charges to be declined over and over and over...a real mess. Not paypal's or AMEX's finest hour IMO as they sort through their dance cards together.

Clearly and fundamentally, it all goes back to AMEX *missing*, once again, a MAJOR PARADIGM SHIFT in how consumers of this 21st century plan to pay their bills.

Have you noticed how FAST paypal's BILLPAY service seems to be growing. AND, *ironically*, AMEX is one of the apparent merchants that WE CAN PAY BILLS TO USING PAYPAL. What a twist of logic for AMEX to deny use of PAYING AT PAYPAL using an AMEX card, yet to be a very early partner w paypal to let people...pay their AMEX bill on paypal. Huh ?

As for why this is a TRAVEL BOARD issue...it absolutely is, on several levels....
1) guess how I sat down and paid a over-$1000 invoice this weekend while traveling ? Yep paypal. Merchant I was visiting, for whatever reason, accepted paypal and not credit card direct payments...so I was able to use their pc...just on the net....and pay them in seconds. AMEX, of course, missed this one also.
2) for those who bemoan that they don't have adequate ways to charge high-dollar and/or frequent, recurring charges....paypal is literally a godsend. Literally everyday now I pay individuals across the US via credit card payments...that would otherwise never have the ability to accept a credit card payment. No small wonder why paypal jumped to 160% of their IPO price last week. This is a paradigm shift of a major scale...some caught on (Wells Fargo/paypal, Citibank/c2it, Western Union/bidpay, etc), but appears that AMEX is flat-footed so far and looking under every rock and log for ghosts that aren't there. IMO.

Re: your question about how it shows up - It shows up as a line item called "paypal"....not as a "cash advance", which it is not as I use it anyway but is apparently AMEX's MAJOR GRIEVANCE and CONCERN (ie that people are using paypal to indirectly obtain cash advances)...shows up essentially just a poorly-described charge. Spouse spends more than an hour sorting through the arcane listing and comparing it to an actual charge. Seems to me paypal could be more forthcoming to the credit card company and provide a better description (ie payee's email address, etc) for cross-referencing.

Whew....enuff of this subject for today...anyway - I'm hoping Randy P will catch on and QUICKLY add folders for paypal, bidpay, Yahoo's paydirect, Citibank's c2it, etc. IMO - these are services, like credit cards did 25yrs ago or whenever they hit the consumer world...that will change our lives forevermore as we travel and move around. Unlike that which any credit card in my pocket allows me to do...I can have $1000 sent to any unique email address in the world in seconds. And I enjoy all the benefits of Western Union, but *without * having to go stand in line at a grocery store and deal with Western Union (actually, more benefits since I get ff miles to boot).

[This message has been edited by ILUVCITIBANK (edited 02-19-2002).]

What other epayment services accept AMEX? It doesn't seem that BillPoint does.

You're right; billpoint ("eBay payments" or something like that I believe it's now called) does not accept AMEX. Never has.

Another opportunity lost for AMEX. I caught a brief news article that eBay is about to announce some major improvements to billpoint....they could start with supporting AMEX and/or Diner's Club as partners...and then could lift that silly $500 per transaction limit, which is why I always avoid them, even as an ebay shareholder, which would imply I should support eBay's payment service...I ignore and void eBay's internal payment service, because it's antiquated and archaic and poorly modeled.

Without even bothering to look, since Citibank owns c2it.com, I will assume AMEX won't get their foot in this door.

I'm guessing bidpay.com, which is essentially an electrnic Western Union money order ordering site....probably doesn't allow AMEX payments either.

I have now confirmed AMEX won't allow a traditional AMEX card Gold, Plat) to charge a single dollar at paypal...only their Optima family...and then only $1000 per mo. What a joke of a limit.

In short, AMEX is letting all their competitors gain a huge foothold....in the electronic payment concept...while rome burns. Not unlike how they allowed Citibank and American Airlines to become giants in the affinity card/co-op industry.

Amex - stuck perpetually 15 years behind.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ILUVCITIBANK:
[B]
I have now confirmed AMEX won't allow a traditional AMEX card Gold, Plat) to charge a single dollar at paypal...only their Optima family...and then only $1000 per mo. What a joke of a limit.

B]</font>

What?!!! How is this possible!!?

ILUVCITIBANK: If you think Amex is behind time, check out Diners Club!

WhiteAMEX - yep - as you may, or may not know, Amex's Plat/Gold CORPORATE cards are apparently managed far differently, and with entirely different rules, than their Optima family (Starwood, Hilton, Sony, Delta, et al)...and seems the Optima side thinks $1000/mo is about right (but no more, god forbid) to be charged at paypal...while the traditional AMEX card family thinks anyone with a corporate card is out charging cash advances at paypal and circumventing the rules, which they sternly disprove of, so they just categorically deny cardholders to charge at paypal. Don't believe me - go try it.

I should say AMEX really is clueless and their policies are inconsistent in how the set the limits and then enforce them....but this is how I understand their general policy. Paypal plays the "hear no evil, see no evil" partner and claims it's "in AMEX's hands" as to when this will all be worked out, yet they continue to display AMEX's logo as a method to pay bills. A real screwed up mess IMO. Neither of these two parties seem too worried about it was my impression. AMEX, of course, stands to lose the most - I estimate they've (AMEX) lost over $20,000 in my charges alone in the past 10 days due to their inability to "get it together". Paypal, of course, just had a very successful IPO, and since AMEX wasn't a factor in paypal's business until last couple of weeks and since AMEX certainly had nothing to do with their IPO success, I suspect paypal sees accepting AMEX only as a necessary evil and not much more...that AMEX has internal problems with people using paypal....paypal sees as no strategic risk to their model...so, as I said in my first posting...AMEX gets further and further behind in being at the forefront of the electronic funds payment paradigm...and the fools don't even know Rome is burning yet. Citibank/American Airlines's AAdvantage/James Robison fiasco revisited (don't ask) over a decade later. If I sound irritated - it's because I am - I had planned to spend $30-$50K/month with AMEX once their affiliation with paypal was announced...now all of that business has shifted back to MC and V to the exclusion of AMEX. Oh well - can't say I didn't try.

Flyaway - yeap - I know. I thought Diner's Club's most "progressive" pathetically minimal move last few years I've had one was to *finally*, and it took forever, get their staid (read "old-fashioned, archaic, timeless") card put on the "approved list" to pay my $21.95 recurring monthly AOL bill. Geez - I mean year after year I thought this was a no-brainer - for DC to get a sales rep over to AOL...and get their card into the family of cards people can charge their recurring AOL bill on....failed to happen, year after year, and finally I see they made it. Only the largest ISP in the world - and $21.95 MONTLY x 12million subscribers monthly (I know I'm wrong - may be double that by now) was going to go to *some* charge card, whether AMEX, V, or M/C.

Crying shame is that DC arguably has the single-best affinity program because they can migrate points to so many airlines, to include AA and United, coupled to arguably the world's worst charge card...if they could ever get their head out of the, well, sand, and figure out people simply can't use the DC very effectively in their daily life...and get their coffee-drinking, doughnut-eating sales force out to the streets to grow the merchants that accept their card....their fortunes surely might shine more brightly. Instead, DC just jacked the annual fee, added a stiff (proportionally) fee to convert DC points to miles for ALL ACCOUNTHOLDERS, and in general have now effectively killed the value of their card. I call their major moves this year REGRESSIVE across the board - surely didn't improve the card or the affinity program - so I will be canceling mine something this year I am 86% certain. Seems now DC is trying to induce DC cardholders to give "Montage" a try....I see that card as "more of the same", and given DC's deplorable ability to get DC more wide-accepted, I say "no thanks". Montage was laughed out of several threads on the DC board. Too many superior choices out there. If DC offered an AA conversion bonus of any respectable amount at all - I'ld move my points and close the account immediately. I suspect a lot of DC people are waiting for the British Air 100% bonus to pop up this summer...and they'll do exactly this also.

ILUVCITIBANK I'd like to email you something privately. What is your email address?

Is that $1000 per calendar month or statement month?

d

deleted

[This message has been edited by ILUVCITIBANK (edited 03-21-2002).]

[This message has been edited by piet (edited 03-01-2002).]

Personally I think AMEX may be way ahead of all the leaders you keep touting. These services all have serious issues to work out before they can be considered a "paradigm shift", the most important of which is prevention of fraud. The chargeback rates that PayPal has experienced are horrific and they can not continue at their current pace, and I have not seen any significant steps that PayPal has taken to stem that. AMEX's limits most likely are directly related to the high incidence of chargebacks and fraud since their cards do not have a set credit limit (so fraudsters could run up quite a bit if unchecked).

These services are a paradigm shift for criminals, that's for sure ...

BTW, I haven't tried to send a PayPal payment too recently by AMEX, but have never had trouble in the past using my Platinum AMEX card ...

Finally, nothing personal (really), but your handle lends to a general lack of credibility to your posts railing against AMEX, you obviously have some vested interest in seeing Citibank succeed for whatever reason.

I'm unclear about what the problem is.

I pay my SPG Amex each month on the web site and it literally take 10 seconds. I select the entire bill option, hit a button and I'm done. The only thing better for me (and it would only save the 10 seconds) would be if Amex automatically deducted the bill from my checking account like my Visa does. That way, I'd never have to do anything.

Family flyer, I think AMEX allows the billpayment option to go thru paypal without issue. It's when you try to charge to a person's account, and hit the $1000 monthly ceiling, that you wil hit a brick wall.

Beckles, I might agree with you if I didn't have to step over some mountainous points against you...when AOL/Citibank get in bed and establish C2IT (AO's version is "QUICKCASH"), and Wells Fargo is a founding subordinate partner of paypal (just sold out their position when paypal went IPO), and then of course Western Union sees fit to establish Bidpay, and in general....these titans in the banking industry see fit to establish their own electronic paying service...I tend to think *they* are on the right track, and *AMEX* is not. Guess that could just be me. Not unlike back when AMEX turned down American Arlines' overtures decade+ ago to become the AAAdvantage partner instead of Citibank...would you not call that a missed paradigm shift ? Forbes sure did. Nailed AMEX big-time for missing that one. I submit this will easily be a dominent way to transfer money by 3002 and beyond...because there is no concept that lets me get up at midnight in the comfort of my home...get online...and in 60sec or less...have $300 to my kid in France Just how it is. de facto cool and paradigm-shifting. Sure - it's infant with respect to fraud management...but its tightening up fast IMO. AMEX's bogus $1000/mo limit just tells us how the others capture the business, and AMEX misses the opportunity. You must not be reading how much money C2IT and paypal are flowing through their services. In the billions. Per year.

You can read more here if you wish -
http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/Payments/roadmap.ht

BTW - you may be using your PERSONAL platinum card, but I am 100% certain you are not using a CORPORATE platinum card. Big difference, or so says AMEX. I apologize if I wasn't clear.

As for meeting your credibility standards, I'm glad I don't allow that to be a concern in my life. I've run into you specifically in other threads, and found yours and my views differed there as well, so your credibility to me, 4779 posts notwithstanding, is on the edge as well. Not surprised to see you trying to lock horns here again. Surely, one of us must be republican, the other democrat ? No offense taken of course.

Just because they supposedly do billions of dollars in business doesn't mean they'll last. How much profit exactly have they turned on that billions of dollars in business? I'd be willing to say that combined, c2it and PayPal have made ... let's see ... zero dollars in profit (btw, BidPay is not analogous to these services, all's they provide is a means to buy a money order by Credit Card, they are not an electronic funds service like PayPal and c2it).

There have been plenty of internet sites that were great ... problem is they can't last if they can't make money, and none of these companies have shown exactly how they are going to make money. IF one of them can, it will likely be PayPal first ... but they haven't gotten there yet despite repeated increases in their fees, and they can't just keeping jacking up their fees without losing customers, especially when big corporations like Ebay/Wellsfargo and Citibank are willing to play in the same space and throw away money in such money losing propositions (Ebay's situation is a bit different since them losing money isn't necessarilly a bad thing for them since they make money elsewhere in the transaction ... which by the way leads me to the fact that this service is not analogous to PayPal and c2it since it can only be used to pay for Ebay auctions and you can't even keep money in the account, it's nothing more than a transaction service, which is not what c2it or PayPal are about).

In the end, these services will be marginalized if PayPal goes belly up (and they will unless they figure out how to control fraud and make money, there have been plenty of internet companies who had stock prices/market caps a lot higher than PayPal's who are no more) and they will serve niche markets, not become a paradigm shift.

Hey, I use these services all the time, and I actually do want them to survive, believe it or not, but they MUST clean up their acts. You can pretend it's not there but fraud/chargebacks are rampant, read PayPal's disclosures in their IPO documentation, it's in there ... they've been fined by Visa/MC for excessive rates of chargeback, I can only imagine what their merchant fees are running at. Now AMEX is putting limits on such usage, likely to protect their customers from fraud. For these services to work, you must have the credit cards on board.

Beckles,
well-considered response. I appreciate your insight because I am now having to think through the prosopects of what if they go away...not too pretty.

A few last responses:
1) at one time, billpoint (before eBay internalized them as an eBay payment mechanism) allowed money transfer between parties not related to eBay auctions. If it is now exclusively for use ICW auctions only, thats news to me.

2) AMEX only *came on board* with paypal sometime in mid-Jan...which I found out about via a posting in this thread (thanks again - WhiteAMEX). So, I find it tough to believe AMEX has already seen excessive chargebacks such that they are singling out paypal (and I hear bidpay, and assume c2it, et al) for risk of fraud and excessive chargeback potential and, in 6 weeks or less, put draconian limits in place. Rather, I still ADAMENTLY believe, based on AMEX's historical lack of vision and inability to see mega-trends before them (the AAdvanatage/Citibank/AMEX fiasco was the harvard B school classic screwup of all time)....they became a paypal partner, *then* went to school on the issue. Ie...put the card, oops, cart, pardon the pun, before the horse...except that the horse has already left the starting gate and typically and predictably, Citibank and Wells Fargo are already turning the first corner.

3) I was disappointed to see paypal buy back the Wells Fargo stake...because surely Wells Fargo ran inteference for paypal between paypal and the V and M/C entities ( and I don't disagree with you about high inherent risk of fraud and almost without debate high chargeback rates *versus* traditional merchants).

Now that paypal is out there stand-alone, with no Wells Fargo or any other megla-bank backing....may be tough go for awhile.

I have not studied the c2it model much; don't have any experience to speak of.

4) I don't argue that bidpay/wells fargo is a different model, of sorts, but it still seems that AMEX considers them the same category in that they impose the same limit there. Bottom line I can, still, at midnight, get online, and in 1 min, have money being sent to anyone in the world. In that sense, I class bidpay w/ all the other electronic payment services. bidpay just happens to only send out money orders...IOW - it's beholden to Western Union and seeks to entrench WU and the status quo. Needles to say, I rarely use bidpay..and the web site is pathetically slow to boot.

5) defacto - if Citibank hasn't limited paypal charges for security reasons, and they haven't as of 2/28....nor has virtually any other major bank V or M/C program....then I submit the chargeback and fraud rates *must* be within acceptable limits, by defintiion. Citibank has a world-class fraud management system...and they seem eager and happy to see my paypal charges coming through daily.

Bottom line - I think you're being conservative and devil's advocate about the entire concept *making it* - which is fair. I tend to think that it's more "the cat is out of the bag"...and proof of the concept is now indisputable...all that's left is tweaking the system(s) to be saf(er) for both payer and payee and middleman, and then the race is on. If ultimately paypal is a literal "wash" profit-wise, and a bank has to own them to DOMINATE electronic funds transfer...then I would not be surprised to see banks . Put another way - if Citibank *ever* says to me...we don't and won't accept paypal, but will allow Citibank cardholders to use c2it at a reduced rate, AND/OR only allow electronic funds transfers to proceed for a) citibank cardholders, and b) via c2it, guess what - I immediately get registered at c2it, and all of my business migrates to c2it. Ie, electronic funds transfer engines then become a competitive block and tool for major name banks to bring in and retail exclusive business...and at that point, I susepct they can easily control fraud since they'll have detailed knowledge of who precisely is using their sevice on the payment issuing side (which I'm guesing is where the fraud happens mostly). If the model morphs into this, so be it....AMEX still loses out.

No mattter how I examine this...AMEX is day late, dollar short...laggard as always. Just like they can't seem to hook up United or American Airlines, only the two largest airlines in the unverse...now for years and years...into their Membership Rewards program. What an embarrassment that must be. Has cost them literally millions of my business over last 8 yrs.

Some random points:

1) I don't believe BidPay (http://www.bidpay.com) is owned by Western Union. Western Union is affiliated with them in that BidPay (http://www.bidpay.com) uses Western Union money orders, but they are like the thousands of other companies that sell Western Union moneyorders. Western Unions attempt at this was MoneyZap (http://www.moneyzap.com), which no longer accepts credit cards and has already retreated from this space basically. As for AMEX limiting this particular service, I think you might see other credit cards do it too, because the problem is you are buying a money order, not merchandise. BidPay has eliminiated chargebacks because you get what you pay for, and they can prove it, a moneyorder, the transaction is not related to the ultimate goods or services you are actually purchasing, so there is a great disconnect. This service is also a potential black hole for money laundering activities it would seem like (purchasing money orders with a credit card, bad bad idea). Finally, have you ever looked at the fees for this service? For anything under $100 they're outrageous and they don't get close to otheer services (like PayPal) until you are well over $200.

2) You seem to assume that someone (bank) will always support this idea if it never makes money. I don't think that is really the case. PayPal must at some point at least breakeven (which you kind of refer to with your "wash" statement). PayPal has raised their fees repeatedly in the less than two years I've used the service, yet they still can not turn a profit. Once PayPal turns a profit, this business will be for real ... until then it's another nice internet concept that has not proven itself yet (like free internet access, where exactly is that business model these days?).

3) c2it has a fairly serious flaw in that some credit cards consider it a cash advance. This creates significant fees for the person making the charge, and it also creates a similar disconnect between the charge and ultimate merchandise that BidPay has. At some point c2it will eventually have to try and at least get close to breaking even (let's see, they gave me $10 + 500 Clickrewards to sign up, makes PayPal's old $5 offer seem like chickefeed, they're still giving $10 to all takers).

4) There are movements in several states to regulate PayPal. I'm not an expert on what this will cost, but I have to imagine it will only make their costs go up, which since they aren't turning a profit yet, will not contribute to that goal.

5) What do you want to bet despite the high incidence of fraud/chargebacks that the real reason AMEX is restricting PayPal charges is Membership Rewards and other Affinity cards being abused using these services? (plenty of threads on Flyertalk about folks doing exactly that ...). This just now came to me, lest I be accused of sand bagging that argument. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Believe me, I love these services. I can't imagine going back to only accepting checks and money orders for my Ebay auctions (http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=beckley&include=0&since=30&sort=3&rows=25)! (Luckily I think BillPoint will stick around, only because Ebay will always be willing to subsidize it for obvious reasons). It's also valuable for paying back Flyertalkers when you finds yourself 20 pounds short in the UK and you need to pay back someone in Europe from the US. HOWEVER, they have to find a profitable business model!

(FYI, I have used MoneyZap (before it was "neutered"), PayPal, BillPoint, and c2it for several transactions each at a minimum, and in PayPal's case fairly extensively)

The more I think about it, this whole thing about AMEX comes back to 5 I bet ...

I hear your arguments and don't really disagree much; last time I promise - back only to the AMEX issue....I personally believe, after well over a decade of extensive Citibank card usage...and about 8yrs of AMEX card usage...that Citibank is *the* gold standard for security processes, screens, algorithims, and such. AMEX is not far behind (ie not incompetent in this area), but Citibank seems to sniff out, and screen for security issues IMO way before they happen. Just MO and sense of things and can't be proven.

That AMEX *determined* paypal and bidpay were security risks...based on actual chargebacks and real-world security problems...in what I think was about a 4-5 week paypal affiliation....doesn't fly at all with me. I still think at best AMEX just didn't understand what they were doing....and have in effect stuck their head in the sand on the issue....since in my conversations with them clearly AMEX marketing was thrilled to be paypal partners...but the security people apparently one-upped them and were able to shut things down, while the mega-banks out there pass on by or at least are trying to let these electronic payment services work.

Bluntly, AMEX strikes me as a bank about 2-4 yrs behind the times in terms of managing creditworthiness, catching leading trends and emerging technologies, and understanding the dynamics of why consumers use their product, or not.

. Diners Club is the only card I have that seems to be worse on these last two issues. But that discussion is for another board.

Guess we'll see how this plays out.