India - Spouse rights if of different nationality

Hi Folks,

If an Indian boy marries an French girl what kind of visa will the girl get to live in India ?
Surprisingly, I know of a couple who want to live in India after they get married.( and not like majority who would immediately go to live in France ) .

Will the spouse get a visa which will enable her to work in India freely ?
Can someone throw more light on the kind of visa the foreign spouse will get in India ?

Thanks,
A

They usually get an 'X' type entry visa in the passport plus need to register with the local FRRO that issues a registration document that serves as a staying permit. Once you have these you can get a PAN card, go work and own property in India. My mother has all of the above, the rules have waxed and waned in the past 32 years though :) Earlier days she had to get a re-entry visa for each trip outside the contry and the the permit was retained by immigration when you left the country. Nowadays the exit/entry X visa is stamped in the passport and the permit is kept with you if you only plan to stay less than 90 days outside the country.

The local FRRO can help you. Note that she needs to check with her consulate in CCU if the spouse visa/registration is free for indian spouses of french nationals, if so the X visa will be free for her. (same case for Germans). Sometimes they (MHA in Delhi based on the paperwork submitted by the FRRO and the state govt) issue a ten year visa, which is nice, since the yearly rigmarole is a pain. Another option is the PIO card available to spouses, that way you have a 20 year visa in one go.

More here: http://mha.nic.in/foreigDiv/ForeigHome.html

If an Indian boy marries an French girl what kind of visa will the girl get to live in India ?
Surprisingly, I know of a couple who want to live in India after they get married.( and not like majority who would immediately go to live in France ) .


its not that uncommon....i actually know a number of people who have spouses who are foreign nationals & have moved to india after marriage....they all work here....

do you know if the girl wants to give up her citizenship????just last week i had a client whose wife wanted to give up her american citizenship so that she could live here without the hassal of getting her visa renewed....

Of those whom I know, most of the European and (North or South) American spouses of Indians living in India don't seem to do any work even as all would have been entitled to. That may be a generational thing of course.

they all work here....

do you know if the girl wants to give up her citizenship????

yes, one of the main queries is on whether the spouse will be able to work in India.. seems they can..^
Nope, the girl infact from what I know has a dual citizenship .US and Dutch .. ( sorry its not France as mentioned earlier..) and I believe she not planning to give those up.

More here: http://mha.nic.in/foreigDiv/ForeigHome.html

They usually get an 'X' type entry visa in the passport plus need to register with the local FRRO that issues a registration document that serves as a staying permit. Once you have these you can get a PAN card, go work and own property in India. My mother has all of the above, the rules have waxed and waned in the past 32 years though :) Earlier days she had to get a re-entry visa for each trip outside the contry and the the permit was retained by immigration when you left the country. Nowadays the exit/entry X visa is stamped in the passport and the permit is kept with you if you only plan to stay less than 90 days outside the country.

The local FRRO can help you. Note that she needs to check with her consulate in CCU if the spouse visa/registration is free for indian spouses of french nationals, if so the X visa will be free for her. (same case for Germans). Sometimes they (MHA in Delhi based on the paperwork submitted by the FRRO and the state govt) issue a ten year visa, which is nice, since the yearly rigmarole is a pain. Another option is the PIO card available to spouses, that way you have a 20 year visa in one go.

Thanks for the detailed info & guidance shared by you all here .. cheers.. Abhi:)

its not that uncommon....i actually know a number of people who have spouses who are foreign nationals & have moved to india after marriage....they all work here....

do you know if the girl wants to give up her citizenship????just last week i had a client whose wife wanted to give up her american citizenship so that she could live here without the hassal of getting her visa renewed....

Never ever give up your citizenship (ever!) if its of a decent developed country. We had a few of those in CCU, they all tried to get back their German citizenship a few years later. Nowadays with the PIO available to spouses, you don't even have to register at the FRRO if you manage to leave the country every 179 days ^

Never ever give up your citizenship (ever!) if its of a decent developed country. We had a few of those in CCU, they all tried to get back their German citizenship a few years later. Nowadays with the PIO available to spouses, you don't even have to register at the FRRO if you manage to leave the country every 179 days ^

its all up to the individual at the end of the day....i know a number of people who have given up their citizenship of good developed countries because they see no reason to hold on to it....

the 2 best examples i can think of are my mother, who gave up her american citizenship when she moved here after marriage & one of my closest friends, who also gave up his american citizenship because he belongs to a political family here in india & wanted to take up politics himself....

Never ever give up your citizenship (ever!) if its of a decent developed country. We had a few of those in CCU, they all tried to get back their German citizenship a few years later. Nowadays with the PIO available to spouses, you don't even have to register at the FRRO if you manage to leave the country every 179 days ^

ok.. so what I understand is the spouse will be eligible for a PIO card ( basis husband being a citizen of India)..ofcourse the marriage certificate / some other docs and formalities would need to be completed..
And basis this PIO card, she can easily live and work in India..
She is actually concerned on whether she can work or not, since she is from AMS and has been working there and Kolkata is a totally different animal .. ;)

I would get the PIO in AMS/NL, much quicker to get it there. The CCU FRRO may make life difficult if she entered with a visitors visa, so go back home, get a new passport (if the name changed) and apply for the PIO. Note if they get married in India the marriage cert issued under the special marriage act needs to be endorsed by the WB state govt in order to be a legal document recognised abroad under the Hague convention of private law. Prior to 2008 even this was not available and you had to run to the consulate with an official translation of the cert and the WB home minstry endorsed document (from English :rolleyes:) to get the final legalisation. My mother married a second time in 1990, her marriage cert looks very exotic with multiple indian and german stamps and translation attached. (BTW, my US marriage cert is equally exotically endorsed and stamped with the seal of Michigan although it is far less tattered)


Working and paying taxes should not be an issue, she needs to check with the Dutch consulate of what reciprocal agreements exist between the Netherlands and India. Some countries need spouses to get and convert their X type into an E type visa, some don't.

PS: note that every right obtained (work, property, right to reside etc) hinges on the marriage. The moment that is not there, house of cards collapses and you get unceremoniously kicked out. I had a talk with the FRR Officer who insisted in our conversation that my mother only was a guest in India and had no 'right's as such. Sadly its true.

I would get the PIO in AMS/NL, much quicker to get it there. The CCU FRRO may make life difficult if she entered with a visitors visa, so go back home, get a new passport (if the name changed) and apply for the PIO. Note if they get married in India the marriage cert issued under the special marriage act needs to be endorsed by the WB state govt in order to be a legal document recognised abroad under the Hague convention of private law. Prior to 2008 even this was not available and you had to run to the consulate with an official translation of the cert and the WB home minstry endorsed document (from English :rolleyes:) to get the final legalisation. My mother married a second time in 1990, her marriage cert looks very exotic with multiple indian and german stamps and translation attached. (BTW, my US marriage cert is equally exotically endorsed and stamped with the seal of Michigan although it is far less tattered)


Working and paying taxes should not be an issue, she needs to check with the Dutch consulate of what reciprocal agreements exist between the Netherlands and India. Some countries need spouses to get and convert their X type into an E type visa, some don't.

PS: note that every right obtained (work, property, right to reside etc) hinges on the marriage. The moment that is not there, house of cards collapses and you get unceremoniously kicked out. I had a talk with the FRR Officer who insisted in our conversation that my mother only was a guest in India and had no 'right's as such. Sadly its true.

hmmm..
Yes, most probably the marriage will be in CCU..
While, we will check with FRRO too, guess it will be much simpler to get the PIO done in AMS..
Thanks for all the advice.. really appreciated..Will keep all updated..

Yes, most probably the marriage will be in CCU..


The Dutch seem to insist that the SMA marriage cert needs to be endorsed/countersigned by WB Home ministry and then sent to the MEA in DEL for the Apostille before they recognise it... :eek: The WB govt takes about a month, so keep that in mind!

http://india.nlembassy.org/services/consular-services/marriage

The apostille stamp is required for any such document to be recognized as valid by other countries for citizenship / residency paperwork.

Hi Folks,

If an Indian boy marries an French girl what kind of visa will the girl get to live in India ?
Surprisingly, I know of a couple who want to live in India after they get married.( and not like majority who would immediately go to live in France ) .

Will the spouse get a visa which will enable her to work in India freely ?
Can someone throw more light on the kind of visa the foreign spouse will get in India ?

Thanks,
A
Definite preference for living in an OECD country is a thing of past. Unlike a over a decade ago, there are plenty of opportunities opportunities in India. I know people who moved back to India in the mid 80's. The situation prevailiting today did not materilise suddenly. It's been a slow process, which accelerated about a decade ago.
PIO is the best bet in my opinion.

You don't automatically, and permanently give up your former citizenship by opting for Indian Indian citizenship, in spite of Indian constitution, which has no standing in one's country of of former citizenship.

Definite preference for living in an OECD country is a thing of past. Unlike a over a decade ago, there are plenty of opportunities opportunities in India. I know people who moved back to India in the mid 80's. The situation prevailiting today did not materilise suddenly. It's been a slow process, which accelerated about a decade ago.
PIO is the best bet in my opinion.

You don't automatically, and permanently give up your former citizenship by opting for Indian Indian citizenship, in spite of Indian constitution, which has no standing in one's country of of former citizenship.

Indeed. Also, when it comes to some people who have citizenship of more than one country before they naturalize as Indian citizens, some may be able to readily provide citizenship-surrender documents for one country or may not, for one or more reasons, even be able to surrender a citizenship before or after naturalizing as an Indian citizen.

Indeed. Also, when it comes to some people who have citizenship of more than one country before they naturalize as Indian citizens, some may be able to readily provide citizenship-surrender documents for one country or may not, for one or more reasons, even be able to surrender a citizenship before or after naturalizing as an Indian citizen.

Actually people prefering to return to India has always gone on. Throughout the 50's 60's and the 70's too. My school and college was full of people returned to India after studying abroad. When I was at BARC and TIFR were full of physicist, engineers and other scientists. Smiling Budhha was a result of the labour of those who preferred to live in India instead of the U.S. or the U.K. In those, opportunities in India were for the best or well connected.

Actually people prefering to return to India has always gone on. Throughout the 50's 60's and the 70's too. My school and college was full of people returned to India after studying abroad. When I was at BARC and TIFR were full of physicist, engineers and other scientists. Smiling Budhha was a result of the labour of those who preferred to live in India instead of the U.S. or the U.K. In those, opportunities in India were for the best or well connected.

Some of my relatives who were Indian doctors in the US (and/or UK) in the 1950s and 1960s did indeed return to India (in the 1950s or 60s). Some of them who were engineers -- some sent by Maharajas to study in the US -- also did return even before the 1950s. In that era, of those people who generally came back during prime working years of their lives, very few came back with foreign spouses.

In the Delhi and Bombay party/function scene, foreign spouses are far more common nowadays. Perhaps a small token of thanks to some Indian politicians marrying outside of their traditional family ways -- that too back when the foreign spouses mostly hid or, even more rarely (like Sonia Gandhi), attended quietly to and paid attention to the mother-in-law .... unlike some native bahu (who was annoying even back then). :D

My father always wanted to go back to India and did so before turning 40, moving one step further: he moved back to the village my grandfather came from :eek::D

His buddies in (West) Berlin all stayed back, mainly because they got used to the living standards and their wives had no interest to live in (the rapidly decaying in the 80s) CCU.

CCU has/had a fair share of 'foreign' wives who moved there in the 60s and 70s with their bengali husbands who they met in England, mostly middle/upper class types who had gone there to study.

When I finished college most of my classmates left to the US to study something in order to gain a foot in the door to the fantabulous US&A. About 80% stayed there, if it wasn't for the post-9/11 recession it would have been like 95%. They all live in a bubble there with wives imported from the home land and food from the local indian grocer. :rolleyes:

My father always wanted to go back to India and did so before turning 40, moving one step further: he moved back to the village my grandfather came from :eek::D

His buddies in (West) Berlin all stayed back, mainly because they got used to the living standards and their wives had no interest to live in (the rapidly decaying in the 80s) CCU.

CCU has/had a fair share of 'foreign' wives who moved there in the 60s and 70s with their bengali husbands who they met in England, mostly middle/upper class types who had gone there to study.

When I finished college most of my classmates left to the US to study something in order to gain a foot in the door to the fantabulous US&A. About 80% stayed there, if it wasn't for the post-9/11 recession it would have been like 95%. They all live in a bubble there with wives imported from the home land and food from the local indian grocer. :rolleyes:

Several professors of mine had English/American wives and just about everyone had a PhD from the U.K. or the U.S.

I would get the PIO in AMS/NL, much quicker to get it there. The CCU FRRO may make life difficult if she entered with a visitors visa, so go back home, get a new passport (if the name changed) and apply for the PIO. Note if they get married in India the marriage cert issued under the special marriage act needs to be endorsed by the WB state govt in order to be a legal document recognised abroad under the Hague convention of private law. Prior to 2008 even this was not available and you had to run to the consulate with an official translation of the cert and the WB home minstry endorsed document (from English :rolleyes:) to get the final legalisation. My mother married a second time in 1990, her marriage cert looks very exotic with multiple indian and german stamps and translation attached. (BTW, my US marriage cert is equally exotically endorsed and stamped with the seal of Michigan although it is far less tattered)



So as things stand now, the marriage is scheduled this July..^

The girl who has dual citizenship of NL and US has since been posted to US branch for work.. so she is now in US and will need to apply for a tourist visa / PIO in US ..

From the earlier conversation here, I understood that its faster & easier for her to come to India on a tourist visa, get married, take the legalized marriage certificate and apply for PIO in NL.. does the same hold good if applying in US also ? Any advice ?

Other option I see from the below link is to apply for Foreigner of Indian origin .. check point 16 , 3rd criterion..http://goindia.about.com/od/gettingmarried/a/Convert-Tourist-Visa-To-X-Visa-Marriage.htm

I see that the PIO card can be applied only after 1 year of marriage ?

Basically, we need info on best options for the following :
1. Getting a long term visa to stay in India.
2. Getting permission to be employed..

I would apply for the PIO in the US, and see what they say. PIO applications are treated a bit differently than the usual visa money printing operation, so I'm sure she will be invited for a meeting with a consular officer to plead/explain her case. If s/he rejects the PIO application they will probably offer a version of the 'X' visa instead so she can go to India to live with her husband. :cool:

I would apply for the PIO in the US, and see what they say. PIO applications are treated a bit differently than the usual visa money printing operation, so I'm sure she will be invited for a meeting with a consular officer to plead/explain her case. If s/he rejects the PIO application they will probably offer a version of the 'X' visa instead so she can go to India to live with her husband. :cool:

Ok.. so you suggest that she should come to India on tourist visa, get married, get the marriage certificate and then go back to US .. Then apply for the PIO there and they will either give her a PIO or a X type visa with which she can come back to India to live long term ?

Thanks for helping with such detailed advise .. really appreciate it ^

Ok.. so you suggest that she should come to India on tourist visa, get married, get the marriage certificate and then go back to US .. Then apply for the PIO there and they will either give her a PIO or a X type visa with which she can come back to India to live long term ?

Thanks for helping with such detailed advise .. really appreciate it ^

That certainly is a rather frequent way to do it.

Ok.. so you suggest that she should come to India on tourist visa, get married, get the marriage certificate and then go back to US .. Then apply for the PIO there and they will either give her a PIO or a X type visa with which she can come back to India to live long term ?

Thanks for helping with such detailed advise .. really appreciate it ^

Yes. Make sure you have all the paperwork squared away for the PIO application, they require quite a bit of stuff for foreign spouses. For example certified copies of the Indian passport of the spouse.

Ok.. so you suggest that she should come to India on tourist visa, get married, get the marriage certificate and then go back to US .. Then apply for the PIO there and they will either give her a PIO or a X type visa with which she can come back to India to live long term ?

Thanks for helping with such detailed advise .. really appreciate it ^
I second oliver2002's suggestion. In fact, that is probably the only way to do it because she cannot get a PIO card before the wedding.

I would apply for the PIO in the US, and see what they say. PIO applications are treated a bit differently than the usual visa money printing operation, so I'm sure she will be invited for a meeting with a consular officer to plead/explain her case. If s/he rejects the PIO application they will probably offer a version of the 'X' visa instead so she can go to India to live with her husband. :cool:

The visa process in the US has been outsourced to a third party (https://indiavisa.travisaoutsourcing.com/pio/display-requirements). If the PIO application is submitted before the first anniversary of the wedding it will be denied and the fees (currently $380) lost. There will be no invitation to a meeting with a consular officer who will offer an X visa instead!

a. I didn't say she should apply before marriage, its obviously pointless.
b. the 3rd party collects and processes the paperwork which is then sent to the consular officer for a final decision. If anything is not to his/her liking, s/he will ask the applicant to come in for an interview.

a. I didn't say she should apply before marriage, its obviously pointless.

The way I read your message, you were saying apply after the marriage but before the first anniversary. My point is that that will not work. If I misunderstood, and you are saying wait till you have been married for a year before applying, then we are saying the same thing.

b. the 3rd party collects and processes the paperwork which is then sent to the consular officer for a final decision. If anything is not to his/her liking, s/he will ask the applicant to come in for an interview.
Assuming you meant what I think you did - have you had any experience with Travisa, or another outsourced company, forwarding forms that will definitely be denied so that the consular section can decide if they want to do something with the applicant anyway? That has most certainly not been my experience and defeats the whole purpose of having a third party vet the applications for the consulate.

If you are talking about applying after one year of marriage, with a complete application and there is "Adverse information against the applicant", then yes, an interview may become part of the process.

My experience with the handling agents so far is that they process all the paperwork to make the life of the missions easier, but do not take and decisions whether to accept or reject a questionable application. I have only first hand experience with agency that does the work for the Indian missions in Germany and they candidly told me how they work on a day to day basis. Travisa in the US may be different.

My experience with the handling agents so far is that they process all the paperwork to make the life of the missions easier, but do not take and decisions whether to accept or reject a questionable application. I have only first hand experience with agency that does the work for the Indian missions in Germany and they candidly told me how they work on a day to day basis. Travisa in the US may be different.

Travisa in the US has been the same way. But sometimes they don't want to forward some documents that may be useful to the Indian government employees involved in matters of relevance.

I had experiences with the outsourced parties the Indian government uses for visa issuance in the US and three EU countries such that it became very clear to me how things operate in this area. [The Indian consular officials in the four countries had issued the visas of relevance to my party but the contracted handling agents sat on the docs. Fortunately an associate arranged travel and entry into India without the visas in the US and EU passports and we got what we needed to do that.]

My experience with the handling agents so far is that they process all the paperwork to make the life of the missions easier, but do not take and decisions whether to accept or reject a questionable application. I have only first hand experience with agency that does the work for the Indian missions in Germany and they candidly told me how they work on a day to day basis. Travisa in the US may be different.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. I am saying a PIO application based on a marriage that is not at least one year old is not a questionable application that Travisa will forward to the mission to let them figure out, even if all the paperwork (e.g. marriage certificate, passport copies) is present. Are you saying they will send it to the mission despite the application being invalid?

Travisa in the US has been the same way. But sometimes they don't want to forward some documents that may be useful to the Indian government employees involved in matters of relevance.

I had experiences with the outsourced parties the Indian government uses for visa issuance in the US and three EU countries such that it became very clear to me how things operate in this area. [The Indian consular officials in the four countries had issued the visas of relevance to my party but the contracted handling agents sat on the docs. Fortunately an associate arranged travel and entry into India without the visas in the US and EU passports and we got what we needed to do that.]

If the missions had issued the visas, won't they have put the stamps in your passports (which the outsourced parties were then holding on to)? Do you have multiple passports or did you travel to India without passports?

If the missions had issued the visas, won't they have put the stamps in your passports (which the outsourced parties were then holding on to)? Do you have multiple passports or did you travel to India without passports?

To answer the second question, traveled to India without currently valid visas on the other passports.

To answer the first question above, yes, in one way or another. The visas being issued with stickers/stamps in the passports doesn't necessarily mean that government-contracted handling agent or other visa service necessarily have the passports in their offices available for pick-up with open office hours at the time of relevance. There are routinely couriers involved and/or mail/package service companies involved that undermines the assumptions in the question, the assumptions indicated by the words you placed in parentheses "(....)". In some cases the contracted handling agent indeed were holding onto them; in other cases they were somewhere "in transit" despite already having been issued in the passports and handed off; in other cases opening hours were limited; and in other cases it was something else.

I hope that helps answer both of your questions in some ways.

I hope that helps answer both of your questions in some ways.

It does, thank you. I was merely being curious. Outsourcing may have helped the missions but your examples are a good reminder that there are scenarios where it may make things harder for us.