US Airways Dividend Miles - Why is the last LAX-PHX so early?

I was looking to book a flight in September from LAX-PHX and the last flight US offers is at 5:50 p.m. If you are working all day that's a tough flight to make. I checked random days all the way through March and it is the same thing.

Seems like there would be enough demand for a later flight especially as WN, DL, AA, and UA all have later flights.

US also has a later flight out of LGB and BUR at ~7:30, just not LAX.

US also has a later flight out of LGB and BUR at ~7:30, just not LAX.

You answer your own question.

Seems like there would be enough demand for a later flight especially as WN, DL, AA, and UA all have later flights.

You would think.

I end up facing this issue fairly often -- arriving on an international flight into LAX that's too late for me to make a US connection. So I typically end up on UA or WN, though recently had to book AA for a trip early next month.

Both UA and AA are small regional jets, which is a pain, but it beats spending the night at LAX.

Answering this would require access to proprietary information which no air carrier would ever release, namely load factors.

How many people are there and paying what fare and what else is there to be done with the aircraft?

Lots of pax, paying full F/Y and an aircraft that can turn back to LAX or go onward with the same load means a later flight is likely supportable. Then, it's a question of whether that aircraft makes more for US elsewhere.

Perhaps the AA, UA, and WN flights are the reasons why there aren't US flights @:-)

That said, over the years PHX-LAX has fluctuated wildly. I remember the days of nearly hourly HP PHX-LAX/LAX-PHX flights (as well as LAS-LAX), the days of LAX-JFK/IAD/BOS flights, and now we're back on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Certainly if there is sufficient demand where they'd make money, there would be a flight (or flights).

I've noticed that many of the late leaving bank California-PHX flights is now a bit earlier than in the past. I'm going to SAN next month, and the latest return is 7pm. There used to be 9pm or even later.

You answer your own question.

Not really. Flying into one Southern CA airport and out another is a logistical nightmare, unless your trip is planned that way intentionally. If US schedules the last LAX-PHX flight for 5PM, I doubt that it is with the intention that their customers will simply take the BUR or LGB flight instead.

My guess is that the revenue on the later flights didn't justify the cost of operating them. Consequently, anybody who must fly to PHX later than 5PM will simply book one of US's competitors.

I realize that unless a US insider posts with hard data, we are all just speculating. And that's really all I was asking for. Just some speculations as to why this might be the case.

I didn't answer my own question and as SS255 said, if the 5:50 doesn't work for me, the 7:30 probably isn't going to work either by the time you factor in the additional drive time (or at that time of day, the additional sit and wait in traffic time).

As recently as last month I flew back on a late flight from LAX. I think it was at 9:30 and it was full.

US isn't even selling a code share on UA after 5:50.

LGB and BUR use RJ's for the later flights and there are flights in the 7 o'clock hour from ONT, SNA, and SAN. So every major airport in the SoCal area except THE major airport has a later flight. Not that it couldn't be the case but I'd be surprised if there just isn't demand for a later flight out of LAX.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that US is wrong and doesn't know what they are doing. I just find it interesting that the last flight is not only relatively early but at an odd time too. At least if it was 6:50ish people could work most of the day and still make that.

Interesting that there are mid evening departures out of BUR and LGB but not LAX. I checked flightaware, and there are only about 6 or 7 departures out of PHX from 9:40 pm onwards - DEN, ELP, TUS, EWR, PHL, and CLT.

My guess is that folks flying out of BUR and LGB would be flying to PHX to connect to the east coast whereas there are already non-stop flights out of LAX to all of these cities (save for probably ELP).

Well what about Las Vegas to Phoenix? I mean every business meeting runs late in Vegas.

Well what about Las Vegas to Phoenix? I mean every business meeting runs late in Vegas.

I looked just out of sheer curiosity.

Export from Wandering Aramean Travel Tools

Flight Timetable -- LAS-PHX for date: 20120829 at 00:00 on US Airways
Carrier|Flight|From |To |Dep. Time|Arr. Time|Schedule|Equipment|Duration|Exceptions|
US |486 |LAS |PHX |06:40 |07:50 |1234567 |320 |1:10 | |
US |158 |LAS |PHX |06:45 |07:55 |1234567 |319 |1:10 |9/2/2012 |
US |590 |LAS |PHX |06:45 |07:55 |------7 |319 |1:10 |8/26/2012 |
US |609 |LAS |PHX |10:00 |11:11 |------7 |757 |1:11 |9/2/2012 |
US |306 |LAS |PHX |10:00 |11:11 |------7 |321 |1:11 |8/26/2012 |
US |685 |LAS |PHX |10:00 |11:11 |123456- |319 |1:11 | |
US |105 |LAS |PHX |10:35 |11:46 |------7 |320 |1:11 |9/2/2012 |
US |230 |LAS |PHX |10:35 |11:46 |1-3456- |319 |1:11 | |
US/?? |27 |LAS |PHX |10:35 |11:47 |-2----- |CR9 |1:12 | |
US |338 |LAS |PHX |11:40 |12:50 |1234567 |319 |1:10 | |
US |1550 |LAS |PHX |12:35 |13:46 |-2345-7 |321 |1:11 | |
US |601 |LAS |PHX |12:35 |13:46 |1----6- |321 |1:11 | |
US/?? |27 |LAS |PHX |14:30 |15:42 |1-345-7 |CR9 |1:12 |9/2/2012 |
US |660 |LAS |PHX |14:40 |15:50 |-----6- |320 |1:10 | |
US/?? |27 |LAS |PHX |14:40 |15:52 |------7 |CR9 |1:12 |8/26/2012 |
US |55 |LAS |PHX |16:35 |17:48 |12345-7 |EQV |1:13 | |
US |603 |LAS |PHX |17:50 |19:03 |12345-7 |EQV |1:13 | |
US |689 |LAS |PHX |19:30 |20:39 |12345-7 |320 |1:09 | |
US |307 |LAS |PHX |20:45 |21:54 |---4--- |320 |1:09 | |
Powered by The Wandering Aramean Travel Tools. (http://www.wandr.me/Tools/Flight_Timetable.aspx) Click for your free account!

I checked flightaware, and there are only about 6 or 7 departures out of PHX from 9:40 pm onwards - DEN, ELP, TUS, EWR, PHL, and CLT.

Is this a seasonal (winter vs. summer) difference, and, if so, why?

Coming back from HNL to PHL this summer (and looking for protection in case of missed connection with 22:45 PHX-PHL, I was struck by the fact that there was not only a later PHX-PHL, plus PHX-CLT; but that I could also connect on US via overnights to ATL, BWI, DTW, and ORD. Made me feel I was flying on a big league airline:). So they are all gone, huh?

US has significantly cut down on their number of flights between LAX and PHX. In the HP and just after the merger days I think it was between 8 and 10 flights a day including a ~9:30 PM flight and a ~7 PM flight. Sadly, UA has cut down on their number of flights on this route too from their peak of 6 in the mid-2000s. WN seems to be the way to go for frequency :(

US has significantly cut down on their number of flights between LAX and PHX. In the HP and just after the merger days I think it was between 8 and 10 flights a day including a ~9:30 PM flight and a ~7 PM flight. Sadly, UA has cut down on their number of flights on this route too from their peak of 6 in the mid-2000s. WN seems to be the way to go for frequency :(
I just checked my past itineraries and I flew on US LAX-PHX at 9:30 as recently as the end of July. So this seems to be a very recent change.

US has significantly cut down on their number of flights between LAX and PHX. In the HP and just after the merger days I think it was between 8 and 10 flights a day including a ~9:30 PM flight and a ~7 PM flight. Sadly, UA has cut down on their number of flights on this route too from their peak of 6 in the mid-2000s. WN seems to be the way to go for frequency :(

It looks like US continues the 9:30 PM flight when it has a sizeable bank of flights out of PHX - the "PHX flex".

In July, the flex operates a lot of the month and US has 7 flights a day including the 9:30 PM. In September, where the flex hardly operates, US mostly has 6 flights per day with the 5:50 PM being the latest.

From their perspective it makes sense, if you don't carry a large % of the local traffic (and WN will always be the preferred PHX local carrier), then there's no sense having a flight that doesn't connect to much.

It looks like US continues the 9:30 PM flight when it has a sizeable bank of flights out of PHX - the "PHX flex".

In July, the flex operates a lot of the month and US has 7 flights a day including the 9:30 PM. In September, where the flex hardly operates, US mostly has 6 flights per day with the 5:50 PM being the latest.

From their perspective it makes sense, if you don't carry a large % of the local traffic (and WN will always be the preferred PHX local carrier), then there's no sense having a flight that doesn't connect to much.

I didn't realize the later bank was so 'flex.' I also didn't realize that US doesn't carry a large % of the local traffic on the route. (Has that always been the case -- even in the HP days?) So you're explanation makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for the clarity. ^

This also helps explain why UA and AA run the smallest of their regional jets on this route. One could wonder, "Why bother?" But they just need something to feed their passengers to/from LA hub flights -- meaning they're also not looking for much in the way of local traffic.

To me, what US cares is the connecting traffic from LAX, rather than the LAXPHX O&D traffic. So, get them in (with time to spare for redeyes) for the last connecting bank out of PHX. Local passengers can fly others.

Not exactly great service for people based in PHX whose primary airline is likely to be US.

It looks like US continues the 9:30 PM flight when it has a sizeable bank of flights out of PHX - the "PHX flex".

In July, the flex operates a lot of the month and US has 7 flights a day including the 9:30 PM. In September, where the flex hardly operates, US mostly has 6 flights per day with the 5:50 PM being the latest.

From their perspective it makes sense, if you don't carry a large % of the local traffic (and WN will always be the preferred PHX local carrier), then there's no sense having a flight that doesn't connect to much.
What is the "PHX flex"? And whatever it is it seems that it only runs in the summer months as there was nothing after 5:30 for at least the next 7 months (at least on the random dates I checked).

Not exactly great service for people based in PHX whose primary airline is likely to be US.
And that is the crux of my issue. I'm not going to fly WN so I guess I'll have to either fly UA for that segment or see if I can make it to the BUR or LGB flights.

Let's say that LUV offers $69 advance purchase fares each way on it's later flights. US could put a plane on that route and fill it with $69 fares, or they could put the plane on a higher-fare (less competition) route from PHX (say PDX or SEA). As long as they can get their connecting passengers to PHX for those higher fare connections (ELP, etc.), then what do they gain by running late flight. Don't get me wrong...they cut late flights to my home airport in certain seasons from PHL and CLT...I don't like it, so I fly the competition when I have to.

Let's say that LUV offers $69 advance purchase fares each way on it's later flights. US could put a plane on that route and fill it with $69 fares, or they could put the plane on a higher-fare (less competition) route from PHX (say PDX or SEA). As long as they can get their connecting passengers to PHX for those higher fare connections (ELP, etc.), then what do they gain by running late flight. Don't get me wrong...they cut late flights to my home airport in certain seasons from PHL and CLT...I don't like it, so I fly the competition when I have to.
I understand that and that may be the reason. I just thought it odd that there are at least 5 other aircraft flying US flights out of the Southern California airports after 6 PM. Is US really likely to get more traffic from LGB/BUR/SNA/ONT than it is from LAX? I know we cannot really answer that so it's just food for thought. Also, it seems that many of the late afternoon, early evening flights from LAX on WN are priced higher so there must be demand at that time of day.

Interesting thing.

I ran searches for every California airport to PHX and looked at the final departure time. Setting aside the itty-bitty destinations of MRY and SBP, every city in California has a PHX departure after 6:00 pm with nearly all of them being after 7:00 pm.

LAX and SFO are exceptions: SFO's last departure being 5:10 pm and LAX's being 5:50 pm.

Is this a function of the fact that there are non-stop east coast services out of these airports? Or is US lessening competition with United a bit? I noticed that SAN's service to PHX is at 7:15 pm (even though it has late night non-stop flights to PHL and CLT)...

I'm guessing the only good explanation is that US uses LAX-PHX route mostly for the connections out of PHX. Later flights would need to be for the late night local traffic, which may not be worth serving given all the competition.

US has significantly cut down on their number of flights between LAX and PHX. In the HP and just after the merger days I think it was between 8 and 10 flights a day including a ~9:30 PM flight and a ~7 PM flight. Sadly, UA has cut down on their number of flights on this route too from their peak of 6 in the mid-2000s. WN seems to be the way to go for frequency :(

Umm, you forgot that AA and DL have added several flights each per day on LAX-PHX. Even WN has cut back from its peak and, god forbid, you need to go to BUR or ONT. The number of flights from PHX - ONT/BUR is skimpy these days.

In addition, as the previous poster mentioned, US is primarily concerned with CONNECTING passengers through PHX, not necessarily local traffic. US has become quite adept at having more flights on peak days/times of year and fewer flights on low demand days/times of year.

Any chance that part of the answer involves the later flights being operated by Mesa? On the smaller RJ's they would have less costs? Do the RJ's have to pay a higher fee to fly out of LAX than the others?

Next week I'm flying into LAX and out of SNA but this was by design based on my schedule. I was surprised to get a $69 fare out of SNA with a week notice. (It is a mid-day flight and I'm guessing competition with WN factors in.)

Umm, you forgot that AA and DL have added several flights each per day on LAX-PHX. Even WN has cut back from its peak and, god forbid, you need to go to BUR or ONT. The number of flights from PHX - ONT/BUR is skimpy these days.

In addition, as the previous poster mentioned, US is primarily concerned with CONNECTING passengers through PHX, not necessarily local traffic. US has become quite adept at having more flights on peak days/times of year and fewer flights on low demand days/times of year.

Umm, I forgot nothing. I said FREQUENCY. WN has 9x flights on a weekday, that's one more than DL and AA COMBINED.

Umm, I forgot nothing. I said FREQUENCY. WN has 9x flights on a weekday, that's one more than DL and AA COMBINED.

And frequency at WN, US, and UA has taken a hit because AA and DL have added flights. I thought we were discussing why US had cut back on frequency in the evenings. As I pointed out, the entrance of AA and DL has had a negative effective on US and WN frequencies. In addition, most airlines have gotten better at scheduling fewer frequencies at off-peak times.

And frequency at WN, US, and UA has taken a hit because AA and DL have added flights. I thought we were discussing why US had cut back on frequency in the evenings. As I pointed out, the entrance of AA and DL has had a negative effective on US and WN frequencies. In addition, most airlines have gotten better at scheduling fewer frequencies at off-peak times.

Is that really true though? Delta first introduced frequency in 2007 when they took over a bunch of ExpressJet flying. In the year or so they flew it before dropping it I don't think it affected US frequency on the route. I thought (quite possibly erroniously) that US pulling back on the route was more recently.