Miles & More (Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and other partners) - SN Allowing non-crew personnel in the cockpit?

I've just landed and I really can't believe if what I have just seen is true or not. without any means to show off i consider myself a quite experienced and frequent flyer.

SN3713 BRU - BIO Departing aug 18th at 12.05h.

Preliminaries: Before departure the pilot is in the passenger waiting area showing his "affect" to a girl, meaning they are engaged or somethig.
After boarding this woman is seating on 1B with another man to her left 1A and a second girl seated in 1D. They all seem to know eachother.


Here it comes: after reaching flight altitude the pilot comes out from the cockpit and has a talk with 1A and 1B. The passenger in 1A gets inside the front galley and the pilot discretetly closes the drapes, however I still can see what happens: the pasenger enters the cockpit.
Surprisingly the passenger remains inside the cockpit even after landing!
The cockpit door is not opened by the FAs untill the very last passengers are bout to exit the vessel.
THERE HE IS, seated behind the pilots and I have the footage in video :D
Yet again, surprisingly this guy just goes away as any other passenger accompanied by the other two girls.



I have seen this type of situations before and you could clearly believe and distinguish that the "visitior" was a airline member who was not in duty. This time I did not have that feeling at all: the guy did not act as being used to the plane, even when they were in the bagagge claim area he really acted like a tourist and I believe a guy with long dreadlocks and tatoos doesnt seem to work as a FA (he might be a pilot).


I decided not to say anything to the crew just in case I have actually caught them violating ICAO rules and give them the opportunity to make up a story.
However, I had to go to the SN counter to make a claim and after explaining everything I was told to mail the customer service dept... so the crew might already be aware of this.

I don't mind if that guy was part of the company or not, and if so he was not in duty and not identified as being part of SN.


The question is, who is really allowed inside the cockpit?

It's within the Commander's discretion to admit people to the flight deck. Company policy governs when and how he should use that discretion.

What's the problem though ? Was your safety compromised ?

Perfectly normal, flight deck can be visited, there are jump seats in there for you to sit on. Only in the US they now have clear instructions who can be on the flight deck, for the rest of the world its SOP of the airline and the judgement of the crew.

I did not know this policy, specially the presence of non-crew members being allowed during landings.

I feel my safety IS compromised as that person is not part of the crew.
Well, the plane did make a strange movement once (sudden nose lift and down inmediately,really noticeable, done from the cockpit) and there was no manouver to be done as the plane was fliying on a straight line, stable altitude, no turbulence. I really hope this is my own paranoia and they did not let this guy the controls...

I dont pay a ticket for somebody else's amusement. It really pisses me off that the captain can invite their friends at his wish.

That's my point of view, of course wihtout the intention of making any trouble.

If it is a company policy there is nothing to complain about, well, at least I will let them know my dissapointment.

Thanks for the info mates.

Your safety wasn't compromised, in fact it was enhanced. The additional personnel in the cockpit meant the crew was less likely to fall asleep :p

You don't work for the airline nor for the various agencies in charge of aviation safety or operations, so you don't get to decide. What does your ticket have to do with any of this? Are you one of those "my ticket pays your salary" kind of people?

The visitation or use of jump seats in the cockpit is governed by the various agencies and elaborated by the operations manual of the airline in question. Don't like it, go to work for one of those agencies or an airline.

I'm glad that guy was able to visit the cockpit and have a great experience.

What's the problem? Why do you want to ruin this?

HTB.

I've seen numerous people enter the cockpit on numerous flights. It's never bothered me, I don't see why it should bother you.

Are you sure it's not the fact that he had long hair and tattoos? Would you still have been bothered if he'd had a suit on and an executive haircut?

It's a very common sight in Europe ...

It's a very common sight in Europe ...

Really?

I have never seen this...

I believe that after the Aeroflot crash (captain let his son to visit the flight deck and be 'a pilot') and after Sep 11, it is strictly 'crew only' access to the flight deck.

I DO agree with the OP - the flight safety was compromised and it should be reported...

Not agreed. The captain can take someone in the FD when he wants to, however on his own responsibility. In the Aeroflot case, the kid was behind the actual controls. That however is not allowed. As long as this person was just standing in the FD, the safety was not compromised and I don't see what the problem is.
And how are you sure he isn't a crewmember? Couldn't it be he's a crew just going on a holiday?

Not agreed. The captain can take someone in the FD when he wants to, however on his own responsibility.

So Aeroflot captain ON HIS OWN RESPONSIBILITY invited his son to the flight deck and let him crash the aircraft... Not too much difference to SN case mentioned by the OP. SU captain wanted to impress his son... how shall we be sure that one day SN pilot would not want to impress the person he/she invited to the flight deck... Better safe, than sorry... IMHO...

For all we know the person invited, hasn't been behind the controls. The son of that captain was controlling the airplane at that particular moment.
But I do think there should be a unified law that either allows or prohibits flight dek visits for everyone (even off-duty staff)

In Europe it is , also for intercontinental flights except those heading to North America or having flight path over US/Canadian airspace, then this is strictly prohibited.

Have been to cockpits before 9/11 and after 9/11 and even spent whole flights in jump seat. To be fair, I hold aviation security clearance and have some GA flying experience.

I'm glad that guy was able to visit the cockpit and have a great experience.

^

The OP should be pleased he was not on the Star Mega Do 1 charter when the cockpit door was wide open during most of the flight to allow nosy and intoxicated passengers to visit the flight deck in turn. :D

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2759/4079164421_7bc26ceb63.jpg
Somewhere over France between OSL and TLS.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2609/4079926006_fa15550db8.jpg
Missed approach in TLS.

Have been to cockpits before 9/11 and after 9/11 and even spent whole flights in jump seat. To be fair, I hold aviation security clearance and have some GA flying experience.

I have neither of these, yet a similar track-record on spending whole flights inside the cockpit, from pre-flight preperations to landing.

Greetings - Dirk

Here it comes:
The cockpit door is not opened by the FAs untill the very last passengers are bout to exit the vessel.
THERE HE IS, seated behind the pilots and I have the footage in video :D


You waited to be the last person of the aircraft, with video camera at the ready, then filmed the third person in the cockpit ?? THEN went to a airline to desk to lodge a formal complaint ??

We can all sleep easy tonight, happy in the thought that people like you are ensuring our safety in the air.


Hercule Poirot manqué :D

For most airlines, any person travelling on staff travel tickets are eligible to ride in the flight deck. You happened to observe it, but I assure it happens very frequently. If you're ever on a over sold flight, you can be sure there is a non -crew pass traveller in the flight deck.

Get over it.

I did not know this policy, specially the presence of non-crew members being allowed during landings.

I feel my safety IS compromised as that person is not part of the crew.
Well, the plane did make a strange movement once (sudden nose lift and down inmediately,really noticeable, done from the cockpit) and there was no manouver to be done as the plane was fliying on a straight line, stable altitude, no turbulence. I really hope this is my own paranoia and they did not let this guy the controls...



You're funny...

As others have noted, it's quite common in Europe and not at all unsafe, as long as whoever is invited into the cockpit doesn't touch the controls.

Also, if an F/A brings the flight crew their meals and stays in the cockit for a little chat, does that compromise safety too?

If anything, I'd like to congratulate SN for not being loaded with health & safety regulations about what is and isn't allowed and just leave up to the captains discretion.

Slightly OT, but....
As a child in the 1980s I remember it being practically standard procedure for kids to visit cockpits during flights and we usually didn't ask but we did once on an Aeromexico flight from Los Angeles to Manzanillo.

I remember going in there and being completely awestruck at everything, and just as I was expecting to get kicked out as we were starting our descent, the pilots asked me if I wanted to stay on through to the landing!? :) Those 15-20 minutes are probably one of my best air travel memories and I can still see the lights on the runway as we made our approach at night as if it were yesterday.

I'm sure that the person on your flight also had a great experience and I really trust that the pilot would never do anything that would compromise the safety of the other passengers on the plane, as well as his own!? Long story short: live and let live.

This has been fun reading...but is it worth to keep the thread alive anymore?

A friend of mine was actually invited to the cockpit quite recently on a SN flight. After presenting some sweets to the cabin crew, and telling them to "be sure and give some to the pilots too", the captain was actually so happy for his gesture that he invited him to sit in the cockpit throughout the rest of the flight and landing.

So what is your problem?

I think it is just, that you have not been invited to come to the flight deck...

Ah, the good old days when my wife and I were invited to the Concorde cockpit at M2!

In Europe it is , also for intercontinental flights except those heading to North America or having flight path over US/Canadian airspace, then this is strictly prohibited.

Absolutely not. Been on cockpit jump seats from/to BOS, LAX, JFK, MIA on both Air France and Swiss. At LX They explained me that the only destination left where cockpit visits were not allowed was Israel. The UK changed not too long ago.

I really don't know why the OP gets so overexcited about this.

Absolutely not. Been on cockpit jump seats from/to BOS, LAX, JFK, MIA on both Air France and Swiss. At LX They explained me that the only destination left where cockpit visits were not allowed was Israel. The UK changed not too long ago.

I really don't know why the OP gets so overexcited about this.

I am sure that you are not exactly correct. USA based airlines are still extremely paranoid about safety of their crews. As recently as two months ago on UA flight, they were erecting special barrier between upper deck seats on 747 and the entrance to the cockpit whenever one of the cockpit crew needed to go to the toilet or when cabin crew were delivering food for them. This paranoia results in unavailability of the only two lavatories available for business class passengers on upper deck for extended periods of time (at one time over 30 minutes).

Additionally, I was told (when actually visiting their cockpit) that they were allowed to let people visit cockpit only when on ground.

I am sure that you are not exactly correct. USA based airlines are still extremely paranoid about safety of their crews. As recently as two months ago on UA flight, they were erecting special barrier between upper deck seats on 747 and the entrance to the cockpit whenever one of the cockpit crew needed to go to the toilet or when cabin crew were delivering food for them. This paranoia results in unavailability of the only two lavatories available for business class passengers on upper deck for extended periods of time (at one time over 30 minutes).

Additionally, I was told (when actually visiting their cockpit) that they were allowed to let people visit cockpit only when on ground.

Re-read my post and the one I was referring to. Nothing to do with USA-based airlines, only with the statement that European airlines often allow cockpit rides, including on intercontinental flights except to the USA and over USA/Canadian airspace. I replied that this is not true and gave the example of LX and AF. Maybe I should have specified that neither Swiss nor Air France are USA-based airlines, their names are indeed very misleading and hiding their country of origin.

Re-read my post and the one I was referring to. Nothing to do with USA-based airlines, only with the statement that European airlines often allow cockpit rides, including on intercontinental flights except to the USA and over USA/Canadian airspace. I replied that this is not true and gave the example of LX and AF. Maybe I should have specified that neither Swiss nor Air France are USA-based airlines, their names are indeed very misleading and hiding their country of origin.

:mad::mad::mad:
No, you should not need to, I am quite literate and geography savvy. However, I should have made clear, that according to the UA captain, it was not UA’s regulation, but FAA’s regulation. As far as I know, FAA regulations apply to all flights in airspace governed by FAA. Your post inferred that it is OK to allow people in cockpit in flights to/from USA which is in contradiction with what I was told.

Just to show how different it can be, here is short abstract from Australian Aviation Transport Security Regulations 2005:

4.67 Security of flight crew compartment — all aircraft

(1) This regulation applies to an aircraft that is used to operate a prescribed air service.

(2) If such an aircraft has a cockpit door:

(a) the door must be able to be locked; and

(b) there must be a means for the cabin crew to communicate with the flight crew while the door is locked.

(3) If the aircraft has a cockpit door, the door must remain locked from the time the aircraft’s passenger doors are closed and secured for departure until they are unlocked to allow the passengers to disembark, except:

(a) when necessary to allow a person to enter or leave the cockpit; or

(b) when otherwise necessary for safety reasons.

(4) A person must not be allowed to enter the cockpit after the aircraft has taken off unless:

(a) he or she is authorised to do so by the aircraft’s pilot in command or the aircraft’s operator and:

(i) is a member of the aircraft’s crew; or

(ii) is an employee of the aircraft’s operator; or

(iii) is authorised or required by the Civil Aviation Regulations 1988 or the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998 to enter the cockpit; and

(b) he or she holds appropriate identification as a person referred to in paragraph (a).

(5) If subregulation (2), (3) or (4) is contravened, the operator of the aircraft concerned commits an offence.

Penalty: 200 penalty units.

(6) A contravention of subregulation (5) is an offence of strict liability.

(7) It is a defence to a charge of contravening subregulation (2) or (3) that the aircraft concerned:

(a) had a faulty door lock, or that the door lock became faulty during flight; and

(b) was being returned to a place at which the lock could be repaired.

(8) If an operator is returning an aircraft with a faulty door lock to a place at which the lock can be repaired, the operator of the aircraft must inform the Secretary, as soon as practicable, of:

(a) the flight; and

(b) the measures taken to ensure that the cockpit of the aircraft is secure during the flight.

Penalty: 50 penalty units.

:mad::mad::mad:
No, you should not need to, I am quite literate and geography savvy. However, I should have made clear, that according to the UA captain, it was not UA’s regulation, but FAA’s regulation. As far as I know, FAA regulations apply to all flights in airspace governed by FAA. Your post inferred that it is OK to allow people in cockpit in flights to/from USA which is in contradiction with what I was told.

Not if they're not yet in FAA controlled airspace (mid-ocean). FAA regs only apply to US airlines and US airspace.

joe

Let's make sure, that the legendary US paranoia :mad:does not creep any further into air travel. I have seen on US airlines the policy to block access to the toilets with a full size trolley when a pilot when for an extended p.......
Well maybe it is neccessary in a country which has the same gun laws as the US:rolleyes:

Don't understand the fuss the OP makes about it.

Americans believe the hype and spoon fed paranoia, without realizing it's only a ploy for increased funding.

As a passenger, we buy tickets to the show. The production is A to B. Some buy first row, some buy standing room. But, we don't get to tell the director how to do it our way! ;)

I think that people who believe the paranoia are funny too. But think we can 'un-brainwash' at least the FlyerTalk demographic. :D

What's really scary is seeing the 'non-traveling public' eat up the hype like it's gospel.

Really?

I DO agree with the OP - the flight safety was compromised and it should be reported...

What a load of nonsense...this was common in the days before 911 - Do you really think all those people's safety was compromised for years?

So Aeroflot captain ON HIS OWN RESPONSIBILITY invited his son to the flight deck and let him crash the aircraft... Not too much difference to SN case mentioned by the OP. SU captain wanted to impress his son... how shall we be sure that one day SN pilot would not want to impress the person he/she invited to the flight deck... Better safe, than sorry... IMHO...

Unfortunately for you, that is not your call;) I recall being in the cockpit of a LH 747 flight as a kid - the FA's brought a bunch of us up there out of Chicago and it was the best experience for an impressionable kid.

Unfortunately for you, that is not your call;) I recall being in the cockpit of a LH 747 flight as a kid - the FA's brought a bunch of us up there out of Chicago and it was the best experience for an impressionable kid.

Same thing happened to me and 5 other children in my family. AMS-MCO on a Martinair 747.

I just don't see the link how the link person in cockpit -> safety compromised is made.

I DO agree with the OP - the flight safety was compromised and it should be reported...

I think the OP should erase the movie data from his harddisk asap! What if terrorists hack his computer and produce a pilot lookalike, later used for hijacking a plane, based on this footage?

So Aeroflot captain ON HIS OWN RESPONSIBILITY invited his son to the flight deck and let him crash the aircraft... Not too much difference to SN case mentioned by the OP. SU captain wanted to impress his son... how shall we be sure that one day SN pilot would not want to impress the person he/she invited to the flight deck... Better safe, than sorry... IMHO...

In your quoted instance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593) the SU captain allowed his son and daughter to sit in the pilots seat and 'fly' the plane resulting in the crash. A completely different scenario to allowing someone access to a spare jumpseat.

Again, on a flight to JFK with a large European carrier, kid with adult allowed into the cockpit about one hour before landing. Came out after landing. Was I afraid that my safety was compromised? Not in the least. Why? Because I could not for a second imagine that both the Captain AND the copilot would have the absence of mind to let a kid control the plane. Not sure what was going on twenty years ago in Russia, but in this case I was absolutely OK with it (and a little jealous, too).

I'd prefer people getting excited over other things that impact everyone's safety, such as keeping seat belts on, remaining seated until the gate is reached, and not hauling heavy hand luggage over other passengers' heads, not getting intoxicated by inappropriate consumption of alcohol.

I don't understand the problem either. I was able to enjoy dozens of flights in the cockpit, highlights included a CAT III landing in FRA and a take-off at LCY. So what ? Unfortunately after 9-11 it has become very rare - but still happens. But of course not (or, almost not) to the regular pax - either you know the crew, or you travel on some sort of ID ticket so they know you work in the industry. And then usually only when the plane is full and the pilot nice enough to assign jump seats to stand-by pax.

I don't think is was very fair of the OP to exactly identify the flight he was on, thus allowing anyone on this public forum to raise a complaint.

If the OP would like to raise a complaint, given that he was on the flight, that is within his rights.

If the OP wanted to prompt a discussion on the rights and wrongs of people on FD, then he could have achieved the same end without identifying the flight he was on.

And then usually only when the plane is full and the pilot nice enough to assign jump seats to stand-by pax.

Last summer in was in that situation: if you are on an ID ticket flying standby and the flight is oversold/full you get handed a clipboard at the gate to list yourself for a jumpseat. The captain picks the people for the jumps. The standby pax need to list their airline, joining date, LH department any ATPL etc. The list then goes to the flight deck, the people are picked and can board after the confirmed pax have boarded. Needless to say I was not even picked to sit in a galley jump seat, but LH employees waiting at the gate said that the flight crew only pick fellow officers, off duty FAs or friends to sit in the cockpit jump seat itself. Regular ID/AD travellers rarely get picked.

My first op-up ever was in 1989 when we boarded a JAT DC-8 in SXF. We were among the last to board and all seats were taken. So my mother was seated in F and after a quick check with the flight deck I got the jump seat up front. :D It was a very memorable short flight from SXF to ZAG for a teenager :-::-:

My first op-up ever was in 1989 when we boarded a JAT DC-8 in SXF. We were among the last to board and all seats were taken. So my mother was seated in F and after a quick check with the flight deck I got the jump seat up front. :D It was a very memorable short flight from SXF to ZAG for a teenager :-::-:

Not long before LH started doing funny things like flying 747s on SXF-TYO or NYC. Didn't last long but probably one of the best periods in stand-by travel...

Really?

I have never seen this...

On my last trip to JNB, I saw 3 families of 3-4 people (kids + 1 parent) enter the front galley and enter the cockpit. I was tempted to ask for a visit myself, but I opted to work instead.

The OP reminds me of a post that appeared some years ago asking whether it was safe to travel through London Heathrow as procedures there did not require to remove shoes at security check points.

Frightening to see how dumbed down one can people get with some brainwashing. Happens most frequently in the US (which ironically enough also has some of the brightest minds on the planet), but also elsewhere.

Unfortunately, Australia does everything possible to "trump" the USA. Just have a look at recent developments in area of body scanners, cyber security laws etc...

As a kid I have been to the Flightdecj on every flight. I was member of LH Junior club and you had to come to the flightdeck to get your logbook signed. Good old times.

I had the chance to visit the flightdeck numerous times in the past. We had always nice. Chats. My greatest experience was a whole flight in an 8 seater on the copilot seat.

It is sad that flightdeck visits are limited because of the silly paranioa. Nevertheless my girls had a few chances in the past.