US Airways Dividend Miles - Children should not be seated in Envoy!

I'm sorry, but I don't care how much money you paid for them!!

What sort of idiot would bring their 2 and 3-year-olds into Envoy and put them smack dab in the middle of the Envoy seating and what sort of idiot airline would allow them to do so?? Uncaring/disengaged parents and USAirways of course!

What sort of moronic parents would subject the entire Envoy section to blabbering children for an overnight flight?!

My spouse was just on the PHL-MAD flight on Wednesday, with only eight people seated up-front, but the kids were given seats C3 and F3 - in the absolute center of the cabin, with parents on either side who disregarded the children the entire trip -- except to make absolutely stupid comments like "what do you need darling? what can mommy do?"

I got a call about 30 minutes after departure time, from my spouse's cell phone, as they sat on the side of the runway in PHL, delayed and waiting for a new routing because of weather. There was non-stop chattering in the background from the two little ones. I suggested switching seats to get away, but the issue was that while there were empty seats all around the children were in the center of it all!

One long flight without sleep later, my spouse arrived in MAD feeling that way "mad!" given that the children didn't sleep much at all and kept everyone awake as well. Complaints to both flight attendants were said to be answered with reassurances that while they could empathize, there was nothing they could do about the situation.

I suggest that while children are welcome to fly wherever they'd like,they should not be allowed to be disruptive to the flight and interrupt the sleep of passengers who also paid a heck of a lot for their "sleeper" seats. We actually changed my spouse's routing to PHL in order to get on the A330-200 rather than the CLT-MAD flight on a 767 for the sole purpose of being able to sleep!

Keep your children at home if you cannot control them! USAirways should pay more attention to where they seat children, and keep them out of Envoy! Sorry, but that's the new rule.

IMO, if you want to make sure you have a nice, quiet sleep, you need to remember to bring your earplugs (most stores have a nice variety of very effective foam earplugs that really work) plus a comfortable eyeshade (available in amenity kits and frequently at airport terminal kiosks along with travel pillows). With my earplugs, noise cancelling headphones and eyeshades, I can sleep thru anything, even noisy Type-A adults who talk loudly all night long.

I am more concerns about the use of a cell phone while underway, even if still on the ground! As for some other remarks suggest you contact net jets as public transport is not for you.

I am more concerns about the use of a cell phone while underway, even if still on the ground! As for some other remarks suggest you contact net jets as public transport is not for you.

On my AA flights, the pilots frequently give permission to use electronic devices and cell phones when we're going to be delayed by 30-90 minutes before takeoff. Here is a paraphrase from my JFK-LAX 7:00 pm departures (that frequently actually occur closer to 8:30 or 9:00 pm):

"Ladies and Gentleman, this is your Captain. I'm sorry to report that we're 56th in line for takeoff this evening. Feel free to use your phones and other PED while we're sitting here. I'll make a further announcement later on when you must discontinue their use and put them away."

Oh good, we've never done this thread before. Should be fun!

One of the Southeast Asian carriers (Malaysian Airlines is coming to mind) by policy doesn't allow children in the premium cabins.

The problem with ear plugs is that they only help up to a point. I have some that are made for target practice and even those are not enough to keep out the high pitched squeals of toddlers.

Horrendus children in the premium cabin is a known peril that happens from time to time. Deal with it. Earplugs, ambien, alcohol, duct tape their mouths, whatever. But we've all been there, we'll all be there again, and we don't need another thread on the subject.

One of the Southeast Asian carriers (Malaysian Airlines is coming to mind) by policy doesn't allow children in the premium cabins.

WestJet puts them in the cargo hold. Too bad it was just an April Fools stunt.

Keep your children at home if you cannot control them!

I agree 100% with this sentence (but not the subject of your post). It amazes me how some parents allow their overly worshiped offspring to act however they please just to keep the kids "happy" -- even if it means being inconsiderate to everyone else around.

I've also been in premium cabins with very well-behaved children.

One of the Southeast Asian carriers (Malaysian Airlines is coming to mind) by policy doesn't allow children in the premium cabins.

Actually, they don't allow them on the upper deck of the A380 at all. They have business and economy class up there... Probably a good idea from an emergency evacuation perspective as well.

I am more concerns about the use of a cell phone while underway, even if still on the ground!

Seriously? :confused: :confused: :confused:

People shouting into cell phones complaining about a 30 minute weather delay in PHL should be banned in Envoy!

What did you want the FAs to do???

I've also been in premium cabins with very well-behaved children.

Whenever I see kids in long-haul J, they're pretty good. In fact, I'm wondering if the kids in the OP were really "out of control". Chattering in the background of a cell phone call? :confused: Sounds like they were talking, not screaming or disobeying a crew member. (And we're all just guessing anyway since the OP wasn't even there.)

I've only been on one flight in probably 1,000 commercial flights that had a serious problem with a disruptive child. (Short-haul AA in the mid-90's, kid was in coach...probably would have resulted in entire family getting kicked off the plane with 2012's security norms...) I've probably been on 5 to 10 over the years involving a drunk passenger being mildly to moderately annoying. Therefore, when I board a plane and see a few kids around me in J or F, I'm actually happy knowing that my odds of a serious disruption are lower than they would be otherwise.

. . . As for some other remarks suggest you contact net jets as public transport is not for you.

Really? Let's stretch it a bit - imagine Envoy without kids, but I'm going to scream and run around all night long preventing other people from sleeping. I'm pretty sure FAM would be summoned and I'll be restrained or taken off the flight.

We all hate noisy children. Unfortunately, the airlines do nothing about this out of fear of lawsuits.

I've also been in premium cabins with very well-behaved children.

Me too. Mine. :D

My daughter was a big fan of the LH Business Class Bassinet! Now she is old enough for her own seat (and US DM account too).

Unfortunately (and particularly in the US) we live in a self-centered and narcissistic society. Couple that attitude with children and you end up with obnoxious kids, not just on planes but everywhere.

Really? Let's stretch it a bit - imagine Envoy without kids, but I'm going to scream and run around all night long preventing other people from sleeping. I'm pretty sure FAM would be summoned and I'll be restrained or taken off the flight.

We all hate noisy children. Unfortunately, the airlines do nothing about this out of fear of lawsuits.

We all hate noisy adults, people who smell, and people of size being put right next to us. The airlines also don't do anything about those because of fear of lawsuits.

So should we just ban people we don't like from planes?

There's also the fact that if they pay for that seat, they have as much right to be there as you or I do. And given how badly I've seen some adults behave in C and F, I don't see anyone calling for banning adults or alcohol out of there either.

Bottom line is we all have to deal with other people when in a public space like that. Some (both adults and kids) are going to be well behaved and others aren't. If we really want to be guaranteed a pristine experience, we don't have much choice but to book private transport we we can control that.

Bottom line is we all have to deal with other people when in a public space like that. Some (both adults and kids) are going to be well behaved and others aren't.

I don't accept this often-repeated mantra.

If you ask an adult to be more considerate, they usually abide (unless the pax is drunk, in which case that pax can be arrested if he's disturbing others and won't calm down). But when you ask the parents of inconsiderate kids to control the kids, you typically get NOWHERE and there are no repercussions for the parents. Big difference.

Ear plugs in conjunction with a good set of Bose will fix ANY sound problems I have ever experianced on a plane. Feel free to add 12.5mg of Ambien along with a stiff shot of vodka & you'll sleep like a baby (-;

... suggest you contact net jets as public transport is not for you.

I like this response. ;) Love your humor. Wish I could afford those net jets!

Anyway, I was not actually there, but when the spouse is still remarking about it more more that 24 hours later I assume it was significantly bothersome to be worthy of mentioning it.

Neither my spouse or I dislike children, and if you are control of your children (rather than vice versa) then I'm happy to sit next to them. However, those who simply let them run wild should be shown the door. :p

Regarding "oh no, not another thread on misbehaving children!..." Sorry, yes, I do apologize if it's a tired subject for you. That said, you clearly took the time to read the post and make comments - adding to the bump in subject (rather than letting it die a slow death)?

We all hate noisy adults, people who smell, and people of size being put right next to us. The airlines also don't do anything about those because of fear of lawsuits.

So should we just ban people we don't like from planes?

There's also the fact that if they pay for that seat, they have as much right to be there as you or I do. And given how badly I've seen some adults behave in C and F, I don't see anyone calling for banning adults or alcohol out of there either.

Bottom line is we all have to deal with other people when in a public space like that. Some (both adults and kids) are going to be well behaved and others aren't. If we really want to be guaranteed a pristine experience, we don't have much choice but to book private transport we we can control that.

Invalid argument.

Paying for a seat doesn't give you a right to behave in a way objectionable to a reasonable person.

While SOME discomfort associated with having kids in the cabin is expected and is acceptable, not being able to sleep all night is certainly not acceptable, and "families" like the one described in the OP should be just taken off the flight - if they cannot conform their behavior to an accepted norm, perhaps THEY should look into private transportation.

As to the weight issue, overweight people who do not fit into their seat should buy the seat they fit in, instead of encroaching on mine. On my most recent AA flight, a guy next to me occupied almost a third of my seat - he certainly didn't pay for that.

I don't accept this often-repeated mantra.

If you ask an adult to be more considerate, they usually abide (unless the pax is drunk, in which case that pax can be arrested if he's disturbing others and won't calm down). But when you ask the parents of inconsiderate kids to control the kids, you typically get NOWHERE and there are no repercussions for the parents. Big difference.

There are plenty of stories of DYKWIA on FT. You can ask a person to settle down, but they can tell you to F off just as easily as a parent can.

It often comes down to how you ask a parent. If approached in an adversarial way, I can imagine a parent getting pissy. Conversely, there are parents who are aware of their kids and are doing their best to control them.

I've found IME that most of the complaints come from people who don't have kids and don't understand the challenges of raising them. Kids are people too, and imagine someone trying to control you. It isn't easy. I'm not saying there aren't parents who just don't care and abdicate trying - there are plenty. But there also plenty of parents that try.

Prior to having a kid, I felt a lot the same way. Now that I do, I'm a lot more empathetic - assuming the parent's trying. However, a blanket ban (pun intended) isn't the way to go.

I like this response. ;) Love your humor. Wish I could afford those net jets!

Anyway, I was not actually there, but when the spouse is still remarking about it more more that 24 hours later I assume it was significantly bothersome to be worthy of mentioning it.

Neither my spouse or I dislike children, and if you are control of your children (rather than vice versa) then I'm happy to sit next to them. However, those who simply let them run wild should be shown the door. :p

Regarding "oh no, not another thread on misbehaving children!..." Sorry, yes, I do apologize if it's a tired subject for you. That said, you clearly took the time to read the post and make comments - adding to the bump in subject (rather than letting it die a slow death)?

You started a thread to vent about a topic that has been debated to death, and you weren't even there??? We have a winner! DYKWMSI (Don't you know who my spouse is?)

Invalid argument.

Paying for a seat doesn't give you a right to behave in a way objectionable to a reasonable person.

Define reasonable. What may be reasonable or objectionable to you may not be to someone else. To some, it's entirely reasonable that no kids should be in a premium cabin. To others, not so much. Whose definition of reasonable is to be used then? Yours? Mine? The captain's? Someone else's?

While SOME discomfort associated with having kids in the cabin is expected and is acceptable, not being able to sleep all night is certainly not acceptable, and "families" like the one described in the OP should be just taken off the flight - if they cannot conform their behavior to an accepted norm, perhaps THEY should look into private transportation.

Good luck taking them off the flight in the middle of a TATL. :rolleyes:

Feel free to complain to the airline. US isn't alone in this experience as I've seen it happen on UA and DL too.

There's also the possibility that the story in the OP's case is also embellished or she made a bigger deal out of it than it was. Chatter, can simply be people talking or it can be screaming, or anything in between.

US does provide earplugs ... the OP said nothing about his wife using them. If she didn't, that's her fault too.

As to the weight issue, overweight people who do not fit into their seat should buy the seat they fit in, instead of encroaching on mine. On my most recent AA flight, a guy next to me occupied almost a third of my seat - he certainly didn't pay for that.

I agree with that, but good luck trying to get the airlines to enforce that. In this case, you have a much more tangible thing to complain about - you paid for the space. Unfortunately, we're not paying for the people around us not to be jerks.

I'm sorry, but I don't care how much money you paid for them!!

What sort of idiot would bring their 2 and 3-year-olds into Envoy and put them smack dab in the middle of the Envoy seating and what sort of idiot airline would allow them to do so?? Uncaring/disengaged parents and USAirways of course!


Keep your children at home if you cannot control them! USAirways should pay more attention to where they seat children, and keep them out of Envoy! Sorry, but that's the new rule.


Since when do you get to write the rules?

If they can afford to pay the fare, they can sit wherever they damned well please.

You can ask a person to settle down, but they can tell you to F off just as easily as a parent can.

It often comes down to how you ask a parent. If approached in an adversarial way, I can imagine a parent getting pissy. Conversely, there are parents who are aware of their kids and are doing their best to control them.


But that's my point. Even the pax who tells you to F-off is likely going to stop being inconsiderate once his righteous indignation wears off.

However, spoiled kids don't know they are being inconsiderate because that's just how spoiled kids behave. So even if you're approach the parent nicely, the kid is not going to suddenly change behavior.

But that's my point. Even the pax who tells you to F-off is likely going to stop being inconsiderate once his righteous indignation wears off.

I disagree with that. DYKWIAs typically do whatever the hell they want because they're 1K's, CPs, etc. Sure there's a chance that they might calm down after telling people to F-off. I've also seen them continue to be jerks more often than not.

However, spoiled kids don't know they are being inconsiderate because that's just how spoiled kids behave. So even if you're approach the parent nicely, the kid is not going to suddenly change behavior.

Spoiled kids often turn into the DYKWIAs. @:-)

You started a thread to vent about a topic that has been debated to death, and you weren't even there??? We have a winner! DYKWMSI (Don't you know who my spouse is?)

DYKWIA - I'm the one who paid for my spouse to enjoy the "Envoy" experience (which unfortunately did not turn out as expected).

:(

I disagree with that. DYKWIAs typically do whatever the hell they want because they're 1K's, CPs, etc. Sure there's a chance that they might calm down after telling people to F-off. I've also seen them continue to be jerks more often than not.



Spoiled kids often turn into the DYKWIAs. @:-)

Judging from your attitudes, that's where your kid is headed.

There are parents who understand that neither them nor their offspring are entitled to special treatment and who make the best effort to prevent their kids from disturbing others. This is easily seen and is appreciated by other pax, even if the infant presents some, or even significant, discomfort.

And then there are parents like you, who think they and their kids are entitled to be tolerated.

Judging from your attitudes, that's where your kid is headed.

There are parents who understand that neither them nor their offspring are entitled to special treatment and who make the best effort to prevent their kids from disturbing others. This is easily seen and is appreciated by other pax, even if the infant presents some, or even significant, discomfort.

And then there are parents like you, who think they and their kids are entitled to be tolerated.

That's totally uncalled for. :td: No personal attack was needed. :td:

I'm not saying there should be special treatment at all. I make my best effort when traveling with my kid. You don't know me or how I travel, so it is completely inappropriate to state how I travel with my kid.

I'm sensitive to those around me, and have my kid travel accordingly. I've also never had a problem traveling in F with him.

Why is it acceptable to state that kids should be banned period from C/F while it's not OK to state that they shouldn't?

If my kid is behaving appropriately, there is absolutely no reason why my kid shouldn't be there. If people have a problem with a kid even being in the cabin if they're behaving, that's THEIR problem. Not the parents'.

Horrendus children in the premium cabin is a known peril that happens from time to time. Deal with it. Earplugs, ambien, alcohol, duct tape their mouths, whatever. But we've all been there, we'll all be there again, and we don't need another thread on the subject.

I strongly disagree with the bolded part. Just because some of us have been loitering here for years and have participated in these incendiary threads shouldn't deprive the new Flyertalkers from the same experience. :)

Kids in premium cabins and feet on bulkheads. Always a good time.

That's totally uncalled for. :td: No personal attack was needed. :td:

I'm not saying there should be special treatment at all. I make my best effort when traveling with my kid. You don't know me or how I travel, so it is completely inappropriate to state how I travel with my kid.

I'm sensitive to those around me, and have my kid travel accordingly. I've also never had a problem traveling in F with him.

Why is it acceptable to state that kids should be banned period from C/F while it's not OK to state that they shouldn't?

If my kid is behaving appropriately, there is absolutely no reason why my kid shouldn't be there. If people have a problem with a kid even being in the cabin if they're behaving, that's THEIR problem. Not the parents'.

Nobody's saying that all kids should be banned from C/F, even though it's literally the title of the thread. The OP was referring to noisy kids uncontrolled by the parents, and the whole discussion was centered around that type of kids and that type of parents.

And your attitude across the thread seems to be - "tough luck! don't like it? feel free to complain to the airline," which is precisely the attitude of parents who think that if they made babies, they and their precious kids can just do whatever they want.

It is true that I don't know how you and your kid(s) are. That's why I wrote "judging from your attitudes."

However, those who simply let them run wild should be shown the door. :p

No mention of the kids running wild in the first post...are you suddenly "remembering" it now on behalf of your spouse? :rolleyes:

Paying for a seat doesn't give you a right to behave in a way objectionable to a reasonable person.

I'm beginning to think that the children in the OP actually weren't misbehaving.

"families" like the one described in the OP should be just taken off the flight

Really? :rolleyes: What exactly was the offense in the OP? Irritating a cranky DYKWIA? All that's mentioned in the OP is that children were talking. No screaming, running, etc.

You started a thread to vent about a topic that has been debated to death, and you weren't even there??? We have a winner! DYKWMSI (Don't you know who my spouse is?)

:D

I strongly disagree with the bolded part. Just because some of us have been loitering here for years and have participated in these incendiary threads shouldn't deprive the new Flyertalkers from the same experience. :)

Kids in premium cabins and feet on bulkheads. Always a good time.

And dress codes in premium cabins. It would be unfair to new members to deprive them of these threads. @:-)

Nobody's saying that all kids should be banned from C/F, even though it's literally the title of the thread. The OP was referring to noisy kids uncontrolled by the parents, and the whole discussion was centered around that type of kids and that type of parents.

Actually, that's exactly what the OP was saying:

Keep your children at home if you cannot control them! USAirways should pay more attention to where they seat children, and keep them out of Envoy! Sorry, but that's the new rule.

You can't get much clearer than that, and that's what I was arguing against.

I was also calling into question as to how disruptive the kids really were.

And your attitude across the thread seems to be - "tough luck! don't like it? feel free to complain to the airline," which is precisely the attitude of parents who think that if they made babies, they and their precious kids can just do whatever they want.

But you also can't ignore the other side of the argument which is equally extreme. I never made that argument.

It is true that I don't know how you and your kid(s) are. That's why I wrote "judging from your attitudes."

And even in this thread, I haven't expressed my full opinion and attitudes on the subject. You should be careful about forming judgments based on limited information. You know what they same about when one assumes ...

. . . I'm beginning to think that the children in the OP actually weren't misbehaving. . .

Do you know why these threads never fail? Because everyone has had his share of horror experience on a flight with kids, and I'm not talking about a baby crying for ten minutes before the considerate mom makes it stop in a hurry. I'm talking about kids kicking into your seat while you're trying to sleep, talking loudly the whole duration of the flight, having food fights, etc.

And for what it's worth, we already do have rules against out of control behavior on planes that apply to all passengers. We've seen airlines remove families from planes for violating those rules, so I don't buy that an FA is going to ignore either FAA rules or the airline's own rules because of fear of a lawsuit.

And for what it's worth, we already do have rules against out of control behavior on planes that apply to all passengers. We've seen airlines remove families from planes for violating those rules, so I don't buy that an FA is going to ignore either FAA rules or the airline's own rules because of fear of a lawsuit.

And you would be wrong, because FAs allow kids to behave in a way for which an adult will be removed from the plane, restrained, or arrested. There is a clear and different standard there.

I'm not saying that the standard should be the same - after all kids are kids, and they are not expected to behave like adults, but in our society this is taken to the extreme.

I am amazed to see nearly 40 posts on this subject in a little over 3 hours. Wow! Anyway, most of us have been in similar situations. Grin and bear it. It makes for a good story later. Yeah, it stinks while you are there but just make to best of it with earplugs and alcohol! :p

No mention of the kids running wild in the first post...are you suddenly "remembering" it now on behalf of your spouse? :rolleyes: ...I'm beginning to think that the children in the OP actually weren't misbehaving.

I did hear them in the background of the cell phone conversation myself, and the reason for my spouse's call was to complain about two things - the delay and the torture of the children being allowed to do whatever they wanted, while the parents conveniently ignored them.

You can think whatever you'd like.

So just a little sympathy for the OP and his spouse, not because I endorse the solution to the problem, but just because, hey, when by money or miles or by hook or by crook you (okay, I'll speak for myself ... when I) have landed an Envoy suite for the overnight flight, it's a drag to have noisome kids, or chatty adults, or a too-loud cabin crew, or a 767 swap out :eek: kill the good buzz and put you in Europe in the same condition as if you had sucked it up and gutted it out in steerage. The annoyance is proportional to the cost and high hopes.

Actually, that's exactly what the OP was saying:


Keep your children at home if you cannot control them!



You can't get much clearer than that, and that's what I was arguing against.



You are right, can't get much clearer... Oh, wait... Did he say "if you cannot control them"?


And even in this thread, I haven't expressed my full opinion and attitudes on the subject. You should be careful about forming judgments based on limited information. You know what they same about when one assumes ...

I'm judging from what you write, which is perfectly normal. My not having complete information is irrelevant - noone ever has complete information. Besides, I made proper disclaimers.

“I like children. If they're properly cooked.”
― W.C. Fields

(donning the nomex drawers)

I tend to agree with the OP. business CLASS is a place where folks pay top dollar to actually have a chance of sleeping on a TATL flight. As such, there should be a certain level of decorum observed where you are actually expected to have some consideration for those around you.

People with money but NO class just don't care about such things. If you aren't willing or able to control your kids - sit in the back. If you aren't smart enough to know this, or simply don't care, an age limit should solve the problem. Arbitrary, heck yeah, but still ...

Endured an OSL-EWR flight with a lap brat in business recently. Had to be humored/indulged constantly the entire flight or screaming ensued. Put on my Bose and cranked up the music to drown it out. Glad it was a daytime flight, would have been beyond whizzed if it disrupted what little sleep I get on this type of flight.

It's all about respect for those around you - who may or may not have kids, and may or may not have a high tolerance for noisy brats. I EXPECTED my kids to behave, and, imagine this, they did.

But then again, I have a certain degree of respect for those around me, and didn't travel with them in the premium cabin until it was reasonable for them to behave appropriately. But some people don't give a .... about anyone but themselves.

Paying for business class is a way to avoid some of the lousy experiences the air travel system dishes out these days - and unruly kids count as lousy in my book.

That's totally uncalled for. :td: No personal attack was needed. :td:

I'm not saying there should be special treatment at all. I make my best effort when traveling with my kid. You don't know me or how I travel, so it is completely inappropriate to state how I travel with my kid.

I'm sensitive to those around me, and have my kid travel accordingly. I've also never had a problem traveling in F with him.

Why is it acceptable to state that kids should be banned period from C/F while it's not OK to state that they shouldn't?

If my kid is behaving appropriately, there is absolutely no reason why my kid shouldn't be there. If people have a problem with a kid even being in the cabin if they're behaving, that's THEIR problem. Not the parents'.

Here is a more real example, and why many of us are so angry. Flying back from vacation in Puerto Rico last Thanksgiving. Last leg was CLT to BOS on a 321. I'm with my wife in 3A and 3C, my two daughters (15 and 17) are in 4 A and 4 C. Two women get on with 4 kids (sisters). The 2 women take the 2 oldest kids with them in 1A, 1C, 1D and 1F; put their headphones on and promptly go to sleep. They put 2 children in 2A and 2C in front of me; they were probably 5 and 6 years old. They screem and kicked the whole way to Boston. I had an early flight to PVG in the morning I only wanted a couple of hours of sleep. I bought F so that I could have a small chance of some peace on my trip; and yes I have excellent noise cancelling headphone. At no point did either the parents or the FA's intervene. This is just not right, I paid a lot of money for a better experience; all I got was a mess.

You are right, can't get much clearer... Oh, wait... Did he say "if you cannot control them"?

And then he went on to say the rest. He didn't say they're fine and welcome if they can be controlled. To me, he implied they're welcome in Y, not C.

I'm judging from what you write, which is perfectly normal. My not having complete information is irrelevant - noone ever has complete information. Besides, I made proper disclaimers.

Disclaimers make everything ok then. That's like trashtalking someone in the south as being ok as long as you say "Bless his/her heart." :rolleyes:

I'm also not judging your parenting style based on a few posts. I don't know if you have kids or not, but I certainly wouldn't guess what kind of parent you are based on what you post here or elsewhere - especially based on a few posts. You may not agree with me, and that's fine, but that doesn't extrapolate to what kind of parent I may or may not be. I've seen plenty of people that are jerks to other adults be great parents to their kids.

The snap judgment that I was a bad parent or a jerk parent was inappropriate, and that's what I had a problem with. Not that you disagreed with me. Disclaimer or not doesn't change what you said.

It's all about respect for those around you - who may or may not have kids, and may or may not have a high tolerance for noisy brats. I EXPECTED my kids to behave, and, imagine this, they did.

But then again, I have a certain degree of respect for those around me, and didn't travel with them in the premium cabin until it was reasonable for them to behave appropriately. But some people don't give a .... about anyone but themselves.

And that's a two way street. It's reasonable to expect respect, but one has to give it. If a person has a problem with a kid being there and they're doing nothing wrong, then that's not respect either. That person that has a problem doesn't give a .... either about anyone but themselves. It works both ways.

Here is a more real example, and why many of us are so angry. Flying back from vacation in Puerto Rico last Thanksgiving. Last leg was CLT to BOS on a 321. I'm with my wife in 3A and 3C, my two daughters (15 and 17) are in 4 A and 4 C. Two women get on with 4 kids (sisters). The 2 women take the 2 oldest kids with them in 1A, 1C, 1D and 1F; put their headphones on and promptly go to sleep. They put 2 children in 2A and 2C in front of me; they were probably 5 and 6 years old. They screem and kicked the whole way to Boston. I had an early flight to PVG in the morning I only wanted a couple of hours of sleep. I bought F so that I could have a small chance of some peace on my trip; and yes I have excellent noise cancelling headphone. At no point did either the parents or the FA's intervene. This is just not right, I paid a lot of money for a better experience; all I got was a mess.

Don't get me wrong. I think experiences like yours shouldn't happen. And I would probably be upset in that situation too. However, you also have the far end of the spectrum that think no kid belongs in C/F ever, and get all bent out of shape if the kid even says anything. Or if the kid is cranky but the parent is trying to console or take care of the kid. That's not right either. A little empathy in both directions goes a long way.

I've always tried to corral my kid so he's not running around, stop him if he's started to kick, and generally tried to keep him occupied and quiet. It doesn't always work though. I apologize to those around me and appreciate the patience as I try to correct the situation.

I purposely haven't taken my kid on any international flights C or Y as I know he can't handle it yet. A transcon's all he can really handle. That doesn't mean that he can't handle F domestically though, or that he should be banned from it simply because he's a kid.

There's a happy medium for these things. The problem is these threads tend to gravitate to both extremes

Here is a more real example, and why many of us are so angry. Flying back from vacation in Puerto Rico last Thanksgiving. Last leg was CLT to BOS on a 321. I'm with my wife in 3A and 3C, my two daughters (15 and 17) are in 4 A and 4 C. Two women get on with 4 kids (sisters). The 2 women take the 2 oldest kids with them in 1A, 1C, 1D and 1F; put their headphones on and promptly go to sleep. They put 2 children in 2A and 2C in front of me; they were probably 5 and 6 years old. They screem and kicked the whole way to Boston. I had an early flight to PVG in the morning I only wanted a couple of hours of sleep. I bought F so that I could have a small chance of some peace on my trip; and yes I have excellent noise cancelling headphone. At no point did either the parents or the FA's intervene. This is just not right, I paid a lot of money for a better experience; all I got was a mess.

I will also tell you that I travel very frequently to Asia. About 60 trips in the last 7 year. My company requires that I travel in Y. In Y almost 100% of Y passengers are Asian families; most with small children. I have very seldom had a problem with the children. So, I believe the US problem is not the childern it's the parents.

Some people are blessed with a lot more money than most other people possess and some other people have hundreds of thousands or millions of miles more than most other people and I couldn't care less if they use some of that cash or miles to put the whole brood in premium cabins.

It would be nice if everyone shut the hell up on overnight flights, but then again, it would be nice if everyone did that at the local cinema. Problem is, there are louts of all ages who refuse to abide by the same societal rules that I would impose if I were in charge.

So what to do? Spend a couple dollars to buy some earplugs and eyeshades. Had the OP or the OP's wife planned ahead for the possibility that the business class cabin would not be a quiet sanctuary, then she would have arrived in MAD well rested. Some people plan ahead for the common contingencies and some others complain loudly when they failed to plan.

You can go thru life complaining about things you can't control or you can plan ahead to minimize the inconvenience that others will impose upon you.

So what to do? Spend a couple dollars to buy some earplugs and eyeshades. u.

And that helps with the seat kicking and the running in the aisles?

. . . The snap judgment that I was a bad parent or a jerk parent was inappropriate, and that's what I had a problem with. Not that you disagreed with me. Disclaimer or not doesn't change what you said.

If your kid(s) were well-behaved, this thread simply wouldn't apply to you, and you wouldn't waste your time posting here. Yes, I made perhaps a snap judgment, but from your reactions it seems that I was right after all.

If your kid(s) were well-behaved, this thread simply wouldn't apply to you, and you wouldn't waste your time posting here. Yes, I made perhaps a snap judgment, but from your reactions it seems that I was right after all.

So, I'm not permitted to have an opinion on the topic? Gee, thanks for the news flash. :rolleyes: If that's the case, then perhaps this shouldn't be discussed in a public forum then.

Ok, so how would you feel if I questioned your parenting skills based on a few posts? Would you be ok with it?

You don't get it, do you?

And that helps with the seat kicking and the running in the aisles?

The OP's compliaint didn't involve seat kicking or running in aisles. Seat kicking in Envoy? Doubt that's a frequent issue. Nobody should kick seats or run in aisles, no matter their age.

My posts in this thread focus on the OP's complaints (all night chattering). Much like an appellate court, my failure to address items not germane to this thread should not cause you (or anyone else) to assume my positions on those other issues.

So, I'm not permitted to have an opinion on the topic? Gee, thanks for the news flash. :rolleyes: If that's the case, then perhaps this shouldn't be discussed in a public forum then.

Ok, so how would you feel if I questioned your parenting skills based on a few posts? Would you be ok with it?

You don't get it, do you?

You can twist what I said all you want, but it's not gonna help you. I didn't say you weren't permitted to have an opinion. I said, if you had well-behaved kids, you would look at the OP, decide that this thread has nothing to do with you, and move on.

Since you seem to want to play the game, sure, let's play it. What can you tell me about my parenting skills based on what I posted?

You can twist what I said all you want, but it's not gonna help you. I didn't say you weren't permitted to have an opinion. I said, if you had well-behaved kids, you would look at the OP, decide that this thread has nothing to do with you, and move on.

Again, you're making inferences which A) you have no business making, and B) are inappropriate. I never commented about my kid being a hellion or anything like that ... that was an assumption YOU made. The fact of whether I'm commenting on the thread or not has nothing to do with the fact that whether my kid is well behaved or not. I really don't have an idea why you're making this about my kid, especially as you know nothing about him or me. The OP posted a comment, and I responded. That's how a forum works. I don't have to have a personal dog in the fight to post. I don't understand why you think that's a requirement.

You saw fit to cast aspersions with no evidence based on a few posts. THAT'S what I have a problem with.

Since you seem to want to play the game, sure, let's play it. What can you tell me about my parenting skills based on what I posted?

I told you I wasn't going to form an opinion ... I don't have enough information. I'm not going to play amateur psychologist as you have been. Even if I think you're a jerk, that doesn't tell me what kind of parent you are or how your kids are behaved. Nor do I really care.

My point is that you've been resorting to personal attacks as you don't agree with me. I have not done that, nor am I going to do it.

. . . be posting on FlyerTalk! ;)

This thread was doomed from the title. Let's go back to talking about miles.

-AZ
Moderator