Southwest Rapid Rewards - Irregular FA Safety Briefing

One of those odd WN days:

Was flying this morning on WN 3814 from LAX -> HOU 6:50am departure. Boarding did not begin until 6:35 a.m. despite the aircraft being a remain over night and about 8 wheelchairs needing pre-boarding. Ultimately pushed 10 minutes late (drives me crazy!).

The weird part was that the FA's began their safety demo prior to pushback. They got through the seat belt/over-water evacuation part and then something distracted them from completing the oxygen briefing. Pilot signaled ready for departure and the FA's got on the PA saying that they would finish the demonstration at 10,000 feet. I've never seen that before and would guess that may be an FAA no-no? I would have thought the FA's would call the pilots and have them wait two minutes. I know airlines report to the tower when they are ready to proceed to the runway. WN pilots probably assume FA's did their job timely.

Pilot signaled ready for departure and the FA's got on the PA saying that they would finish the demonstration at 10,000 feet.

I've had it happen once or twice before. It's not against the FAA regs, as long as you're briefed below a certain altitude (I think 18k). Though I'm not sure they'd want to do this if a cabin inspector was riding along.

LAX can be a funny airport for taxi times--you can get out right away, or sometimes you wait forever, despite being in T1. Same goes for PHX.

I've had that occur on several Southwest flights. As long as the demonstration is conducted prior to climbing above 10000 feet, all is well.

Most of the WN gates at LAX are just feet from runway 24L and at that early hour there was most likely no waiting to takeoff.

Had this happen to me back in 2004 when I was a brand new FA for Independence Air. I was riding WN, coming out of a really small airport...I'm thinking Harlingen? Anyway, the pushback/startup/taxi lasted roughly 2 minutes, at which point they got the bells ready for TO. They sat down before the O2 demo. I thought to myself "oooooh, this is SO against FARs!" After landing, I asked a friend who was also in the cabin, who also happened to be a WN fa. It's legit and doens't break any FARs as long as it's briefed before 14,000 feet. Plenty of time to bust it out between the 10k chime and reaching 14k and above (that's when there no more oxygen outside to breath.
Quite enlightening! :-)

Boarding did not begin until 6:35 a.m. despite the aircraft being a remain over night and about 8 wheelchairs needing pre-boarding. Ultimately pushed 10 minutes late (drives me crazy!).

Obviously, I don't know, but a possible reason is that 1 of the FA's did not show up on time. You cannot begin boarding until all the FA's are aboard.

One of those odd WN days:

Was flying this morning on WN 3814 from LAX -> HOU 6:50am departure. Boarding did not begin until 6:35 a.m. despite the aircraft being a remain over night and about 8 wheelchairs needing pre-boarding. Ultimately pushed 10 minutes late (drives me crazy!).

The weird part was that the FA's began their safety demo prior to pushback. They got through the seat belt/over-water evacuation part and then something distracted them from completing the oxygen briefing. Pilot signaled ready for departure and the FA's got on the PA saying that they would finish the demonstration at 10,000 feet. I've never seen that before and would guess that may be an FAA no-no? I would have thought the FA's would call the pilots and have them wait two minutes. I know airlines report to the tower when they are ready to proceed to the runway. WN pilots probably assume FA's did their job timely.

Wow. You seem to sweat the small(10 minutes late) stuff.

Seriously. You complain about a 10 minute late departure and yet, the flight arrives early in to Houston. WOW.

The FA did not break any FAR's. They are required to demonstrate the oxygen before the aircraft reaches 24,000 Feet.

It's not against the FAA regs, as long as you're briefed below a certain altitude (I think 18k).

As long as the demonstration is conducted prior to climbing above 10000 feet, all is well.

It's legit and doens't break any FARs as long as it's briefed before 14,000 feet.

They are required to demonstrate the oxygen before the aircraft reaches 25,000 Feet.

Haha. So which is it? 18k, 10k, 14k, or 25k?

I'll throw my hat in the ring and say 16,233.2 feet.

Haha. So which is it? 18k, 10k, 14k, or 25k?

I'll throw my hat in the ring and say 16,233.2 feet.

The FA can stand in the aisle to demonstrate safely after 10K feet because they are not climbing as steep after take off. However, they are required to demonstrate it before 24K feet.

If you need me to post this FAR's regulation, I'd be happy to.

The FA can stand in the aisle to demonstrate safely after 10K feet because they are not climbing as steep after take off. However, they are required to demonstrate it before 24K feet.

If you need me to post this FAR's regulation, I'd be happy to.

Haha, no need. I don't really care. I just thought it was funny that each response, including now your second one (24k vs 25k), gave a different number.

Haha, no need. I don't really care. I just thought it was funny that each response, including now your second one (24k vs 25k), gave a different number.
Must be a typo. The number 4 and 5 is right next to each other on the keyboard.

LOL

If you need me to post this FAR's regulation, I'd be happy to.

Please do..

Please do..

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%20121-24C/$FILE/AC121-24C.pdf

Section 1.a.(10) on "Page 3"

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%20121-24C/$FILE/AC121-24C.pdf

Section 1.a.(10) on "Page 3"


Gotta love linked proof!

Gotta love linked proof!

I was looking at the reg 121.577, but what was posted was an FAA Advisory Circular, not quite the same thing... ;)

I was looking at the reg 121.577, but what was posted was an FAA Advisory Circular, not quite the same thing... ;)

I Binged "FAA Safety Briefing 25,000" and that's what I got. If you've got something more official, please post. :)

Edit: This one mentions 12,000 feet if there is no flight attendant, but nothing about if there is one.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/71ab32e8a7261e2386256ecf004e3ab1!OpenDocument&ExpandSection=2#_Section2

The oxygen mask demo must be done before 25,000 feet.

Per FARs:

"(f) Passenger briefing. Before flight is conducted above flight level 250, a crewmember shall instruct the passengers on the necessity of using oxygen in the event of cabin depressurization and shall point out to them the location and demonstrate the use of the oxygen-dispensing equipment."

The full rule can be found at:

http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part121-333-FAR.shtml

And yes, I have had to do the demo, AFTER takeoff due to short taxis.

It's rare and uncommon... but it is TOTALLY within FARs.

And LAX is actually one of the places I have had to do it AFTER take-off.

It's not common, very rare, but perfectly within FARs.

The magic number per FAR 121.333 (f) is 25,000 feet.

Haha. So which is it? 18k, 10k, 14k, or 25k?

I'll throw my hat in the ring and say 16,233.2 feet.

The reason for so many different altitudes related to passenger oxygen is that they pertain to different aspects and contexts.

* The FAA uses a 25,000 ft. threshold for determining which aircraft have to have have an emergency oxygen system installed on the aircraft. If an aircraft can make an emergency descent from 25,000 to a lower altitude with breatheable air within 4 minutes, the aircraft isn't required to have a passenger oxygen system--as long as it never goes above 25,000 in normal cruise. This is why some turboprops have a max altitude of 25,000 feet. Narrow-bodied jet airline aircraft commonly fly in the 30,000-41,000 range, and can't meet the 4-minute requirement, hence the need for an oxygen system, and why 25,000 feet is the threshold for having to have the F/A announcement completed by.

* If an airline jet has its passenger oxygen system inop, it's limited to 10,000 feet. Depending upon the direction it's to be operated, that may be 9,000 feet for cardinal altitude rules.

* If an airline jet completely depressurizes, it has to come down to 10,000 feet, or in mountainous areas (for terrain clearance), down to 14,000 feet. With cardinal altitude rules, than can be 9,000 or 13,000 feet, respectively, for the direction of travel.

* The passenger oxygen masks drop automatically when the cabin altitude exeeds 14,000 feet.

T this is standard procedure when takeoff is imminent and the briefing is not complete. And to the original posters question, no the FA's cannot delay takeoff because the safety briefing is not complete.

This has happened to me once or twice flying out of PHL...usually, the first flight of the day and the pilot had a bit of a lead foot on the taxiway.

IIRC, they continued the safety briefing once we passed 10k feet.

Matt

Thanks for all the input. It wasn't that it was an unusually quick departure out of LAX, it was that something held their attention after the first part of the briefing and they just couldnt get it together.

As far as the 10 minute delayed departure, I should feel upset because the whole crew was sitting there far in advance, it was the first departure of the am, there was no sense of urgency by the gate attendant or flight attendants to get people on board, just leisurely moving at their own pace (slower than usual). I feel some stations are better than others at getting folks to sit down, shut up, and leave quickly (OAK in my experience),

Thanks for all the input. It wasn't that it was an unusually quick departure out of LAX, it was that something held their attention after the first part of the briefing and they just couldnt get it together.

As far as the 10 minute delayed departure, I should feel upset because the whole crew was sitting there far in advance, it was the first departure of the am, there was no sense of urgency by the gate attendant or flight attendants to get people on board, just leisurely moving at their own pace (slower than usual). I feel some stations are better than others at getting folks to sit down, shut up, and leave quickly (OAK in my experience),

"getting folks to sit down, shut up, and leave quickly"

Do you feel the same way when you've arrived 10 late at the gate and seat belt sign is turned off......Getting folks to stand up, shut up and get out quickly?

LOL :p

Thanks for all the input. It wasn't that it was an unusually quick departure out of LAX, it was that something held their attention after the first part of the briefing and they just couldnt get it together.

As far as the 10 minute delayed departure, I should feel upset because the whole crew was sitting there far in advance, it was the first departure of the am, there was no sense of urgency by the gate attendant or flight attendants to get people on board, just leisurely moving at their own pace (slower than usual). I feel some stations are better than others at getting folks to sit down, shut up, and leave quickly (OAK in my experience),

What time did you arrive at your destination? On time, early, late? Was the flight full? There are many variables as why boarding was 'relaxed'.

One of those odd WN days:

Was flying this morning on WN 3814 from LAX -> HOU 6:50am departure. Boarding did not begin until 6:35 a.m. despite the aircraft being a remain over night and about 8 wheelchairs needing pre-boarding. Ultimately pushed 10 minutes late (drives me crazy!).

The weird part was that the FA's began their safety demo prior to pushback. They got through the seat belt/over-water evacuation part and then something distracted them from completing the oxygen briefing. Pilot signaled ready for departure and the FA's got on the PA saying that they would finish the demonstration at 10,000 feet. I've never seen that before and would guess that may be an FAA no-no? I would have thought the FA's would call the pilots and have them wait two minutes. I know airlines report to the tower when they are ready to proceed to the runway. WN pilots probably assume FA's did their job timely.

When I saw the title of the thread I was expecting this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=213cHY2xI54