United MileagePlus (Consolidated) - TOD Departure Upgrade "revoked"

This has to be one of the craziest things I've experienced on the "new" United. I was booked on an H class fare on a flight to Mexico. This flight operates on a A319 from IAD-MEX. I applied to use a RPU and was wait listed. At checkin there were two seats available and I was #1 on the upgrade list.

About 40 minutes before boarding I was #2 on the upgrade list and then one of the seats filled up with what I expect was a TOD upgrade. Having flown way to much the previous week, I decided to check on a TOD for myself -- mentally thinking that anything around 150 bucks might get me to pull the trigger on this flight. Lucky me -- on-line re-checkin offered me a $169.00 TOD upgrade (or is that 16.9 :-) ) I took it.

My first mistake was getting my boarding pass re-printed at the gate by one of the two agents working the flight. While I was getting a re-print a very-very agitated flyer was berating the agent for "giving his/her" seat away to someone else... as they were Global Services and they were #1 on the upgrade list with one seat left.

My second mistake was telling "him/her" not to take it out on the agent, that I paid for the last seat just minutes ago for "about $150 bucks" and they should take it up with UAL for their ridiculous TOD upgrade offers.

Next thing I know the other gate agent tells me that the GS member should have the right to seat BEFORE me and if he/she is willing to pay for the TOD upgrade they have to offer it to her.

After several minutes of "intense" conversations and the request of a supervisor -- I relented and told the agent to give the seat to this other person who seemed to need it more than me -- I just wanted my old seat back and that I wasn't going to wait for the supervisor to show up 10 minutes before departure and bump me back to E+ and then have to check a bag.

My only request was that before the flight left that I be given a refund for the TOD.

About half way thru boarding a supervisor comes on the plane with my refund for the TOD AND a small token of appreciation for "taking the high road" (vouchers).

The supervisor must have informed the flight crew because the first-class purser must have visited me 3 or 4 times during the flight to 1) offer me a pre-depature beverage, 2) offer me dinner from the BYOD menu, 3) offer me yet another drink and 4) offer me a cookie. (for the record I only took them up on dinner).

Also for the record, the gate agent said she WOULD have bumped me back to E+ IF (and only IF) the GS member paid whatever their TOD amount would have been. I have no idea if the supervisor would have done the same.

It actually all ended up pretty well for me -- but yet another reason why TOD should NOT be offered when there are 1K or GS members on the wait list.

What would you have done? (aside from keeping you mouth shut during mistake #2 above :-) )

Looking at future dates on united.com, an H-fare round-trip is pricing out at $1179, with an M-fare round trip at $1485, so the "TOD" seems about right for this flight.

That being said, the more complicated you make the upgrade process, the more things agents can screw up.

Wouldn't this situation warrant downgrade compensation? No idea how to calculate that though.

Loose lips sink upgrades.

Wouldn't this situation warrant downgrade compensation? No idea how to calculate that though.

Maybe that's what the OP got with the vouchers.

Wouldn't this situation warrant downgrade compensation? No idea how to calculate that though.

I would assume the answer is yes. The OP didn't fly in the cabin he was ticketed to be in. The fact that he got refunded on the spot is a bit unique but perhaps that's the rationale that was used to grant the vouchers.?.

About 40 minutes before boarding I was #2 on the upgrade list and then one of the seats filled up with what I expect was a TOD upgrade. Having flown way to much the previous week, I decided to check on a TOD for myself -- mentally thinking that anything around 150 bucks might get me to pull the trigger on this flight. Lucky me -- on-line re-checkin offered me a $169.00 TOD upgrade (or is that 16.9 :-) ) I took it.

My first mistake was getting my boarding pass re-printed at the gate by one of the two agents working the flight. While I was getting a re-print a very-very agitated flyer was berating the agent for "giving his/her" seat away to someone else... as they were Global Services and they were #1 on the upgrade list with one seat left.

My second mistake was telling "him/her" not to take it out on the agent, that I paid for the last seat just minutes ago for "about $150 bucks" and they should take it up with UAL for their ridiculous TOD upgrade offers.

Next thing I know the other gate agent tells me that the GS member should have the right to seat BEFORE me and if he/she is willing to pay for the TOD upgrade they have to offer it to her.

After several minutes of "intense" conversations and the request of a supervisor -- I relented and told the agent to give the seat to this other person who seemed to need it more than me -- I just wanted my old seat back and that I wasn't going to wait for the supervisor to show up 10 minutes before departure and bump me back to E+ and then have to check a bag.

What would you have done? (aside from keeping you mouth shut during mistake #2 above :-) )

I'm glad the crew kept it classy, and really did acknowledge that you took the high road.

Hey, you played the game as UA has set you up to play it. No fault on you.

BTW, while I get the GS's frustration, but her DYKWIA attitude got her way. That's too bad. Why do you say she "needed the seat more than me?" Because she was making a scene, and making everyone feel awkward? Behaving badly makes her more entitled? Too bad.

BTW . . . the GS didn't have any priority over you once you bought the TOD. She had the same opportunity, and chose to play the waiting game, and lost based on a UA policy you followed. And still got the seat.

Hope the flight was good. Did the DYKWIA thank you for your graciousness at all?

I'm almost 100% sure I know the answer.

What would I have done? My goal is that DYKWIA and rudeness never get my sympathy nor compliance.

So they were hawking TOD upgrades at the gate on the early LAX to HNL flight on Monday for $225, there were at least 20 people still on the upgrade list still and only 1 or 2 seats left. So I think the GA had it wrong basically, they want to maximize revenue per flight.

So they were hawking TOD upgrades at the gate on the early LAX to HNL flight on Monday for $225

When does a TOD stop being a TOD? What's the upper limit?

Maybe that's what the OP got with the vouchers.

Yes $200 in vouchers and a refund of the TOD fee on the spot.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. If things are as the OP says they are, as a 1K, I should be able to do the following:

- Waitlist for complimentary upgrades as I normally do.
- If I clear the free upgrade, great.
- Before time of departure, if it looks like I will not get the upgrade (based on my position on the upgrade list, and how many FC seats are available for sale and/or not checked in yet), then approach the podium and ask if anyone of lower status purchased a TOD. If so, and I'm willing to pay for it, then they must give it to me instead, refund the other passenger's TOD fee, and send him back to coach.

That doesn't seem quite right, but appears to be what the OP is describing.

I'm glad the crew kept it classy, and really did acknowledge that you took the high road.

Hey, you played the game as UA has set you up to play it. No fault on you.

BTW, while I get the GS's frustration, but her DYKWIA attitude got her way. That's too bad. Why do you say she "needed the seat more than me?" Because she was making a scene, and making everyone feel awkward? Behaving badly makes her more entitled? Too bad.

BTW . . . the GS didn't have any priority over you once you bought the TOD. She had the same opportunity, and chose to play the waiting game, and lost based on a UA policy you followed. And still got the seat.

Hope the flight was good. Did the DYKWIA thank you for your graciousness at all?

I'm almost 100% sure I know the answer.

What would I have done? My goal is that DYKWIA and rudeness never get my sympathy nor compliance.

I just figured if he/she was going to put up such a fuss over a 4 hour flight that they must need it more than me. Also to be clear if this was IAD-someplace far away, I would have fought it till the end.

I did get a small "nod" when I walked by the FC cabin.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. If things are as the OP says they are, as a 1K, I should be able to do the following:

- Waitlist for complimentary upgrades as I normally do.
- If I clear the free upgrade, great.
- Before time of departure, if it looks like I will not get the upgrade (based on my position on the upgrade list, and how many FC seats are available for sale and/or not checked in yet), then approach the podium and ask if anyone of lower status purchased a TOD. If so, and I'm willing to pay for it, then they must give it to me instead, refund the other passenger's TOD fee, and send him back to coach.

That doesn't seem quite right, but appears to be what the OP is describing.

That's excatly what happened... but I'm sure SMI/J would say that it was a glitch :)

Loose lips sink upgrades.

the first rule of upgrade club is don't talk about upgrade club

Yes $200 in vouchers and a refund of the TOD fee on the spot.

Sounds about right.

This was the CO downgrade voucher thresholds from a few years ago:

The ETC is based on the distance between the origin and destination of the oversold segment:
1-1000 miles $200
1001-2000 $250
2001-3000 $500
3001-4000 $1,000
4001+ $1,500

So if those are still current, $250 should have been the number.

I'm somewhat tempted to try this on a flight next time I'm not near the top of the list. Just hang out within earshot of the gate and wait for disgruntled GS to approach.

Maybe that chart is why United attempted to shrink the world earlier this year?

the first rule of upgrade club is don't talk about upgrade club

Hanging on the wall of United Clubs should be a poster depicting a suit-and-tie frequent flyer crammed into a E- middle seat and surrounded by crying infants, passengers of size, etc. Under the illustration, in bold and all caps:

SOMEONE TALKED.


(h/t to the set designer on "The Spanish Prisoner")

I don't understand your need to share the information about your buy-up with the GA nor your easy willingness to give it all up to an unhappy GS. And your upgrade wasn't "revoked," except by you.

I'm glad the crew kept it classy, and really did acknowledge that you took the high road.

Hey, you played the game as UA has set you up to play it. No fault on you.

BTW, while I get the GS's frustration, but her DYKWIA attitude got her way. That's too bad. Why do you say she "needed the seat more than me?" Because she was making a scene, and making everyone feel awkward? Behaving badly makes her more entitled? Too bad.

BTW . . . the GS didn't have any priority over you once you bought the TOD. She had the same opportunity, and chose to play the waiting game, and lost based on a UA policy you followed. And still got the seat.

Hope the flight was good. Did the DYKWIA thank you for your graciousness at all?

I'm almost 100% sure I know the answer.

What would I have done? My goal is that DYKWIA and rudeness never get my sympathy nor compliance.

+1 agree with all your points
^

Hanging on the wall of United Clubs should be a poster depicting a suit-and-tie frequent flyer crammed into a E- middle seat and surrounded by crying infants, passengers of size, etc. Under the illustration, in bold and all caps:

SOMEONE TALKED.


(h/t to the set designer on "The Spanish Prisoner")
o/t but, i loved that movie!

So they were hawking TOD upgrades at the gate on the early LAX to HNL flight on Monday for $225, there were at least 20 people still on the upgrade list still and only 1 or 2 seats left.

When does a TOD stop being a TOD? What's the upper limit?

Fare-difference upsells are generally considered to be not TODs. $225 LAX-HNL definitely is, especially given how expensive F tickets to the islands are by way of redeeming miles or paying miles+copay upgrade. The upsell for West Coast to Hawaii flights used to be in the range of $375 at PMUA, and that was still a good deal given the alternatives.

$225 LAX-HNL definitely is, especially given how expensive F tickets to the islands are by way of redeeming miles or paying miles+copay upgrade.

Wow, isn't that less than the copay?

When does a TOD stop being a TOD? What's the upper limit?

I've always thought that the limit was $100. Then it stops being a TOD and starts being a HOD.

So let me get this straight: the end result was that you got your money back plus $200 in vouchers and wound up back in your old seat? Just because a GS second on the upgrade list complained about you buying "her" upgrade from under her?

We should start conspiring to run this scam! Next time I'm #1 on the upgrade list I'm gonna find #2 and we'll split the vouchers.

My second mistake was telling "him/her" not to take it out on the agent, that I paid for the last seat just minutes ago for "about $150 bucks" and they should take it up with UAL for their ridiculous TOD upgrade offers.

"Ridiculous TOD upgrade offers"? - Pity the GA didn't speak up - it would have been amusing to have them educate you on the spot that this wasn't a "TOD" offer at all, but a buy-up from your fare to the nearest one that would put you in the front cabin.

I do love the trend around here to call *all* paid upgrades "TODs" - regardless of how they are calculated or what the monetary value is :rolleyes:

I do love the trend around here to call *all* paid upgrades "TODs" - regardless of how they are calculated or what the monetary value is :rolleyes:

Look at the Hawaii example. TOD is shorthand and implies a high degree of discount relative to how UA values the premium cabin seat by other means. Not all paid upgrades are TOD, but there is a clear consensus on this forum of what qualifies. This shouldn't even be a debate by now.

Look at the Hawaii example. TOD is shorthand and implies a high degree of discount relative to how UA values the premium cabin seat by other means. Not all paid upgrades are TOD, but there is a clear consensus on this forum of what qualifies. This shouldn't even be a debate by now.

Of course the Hawaii one was - no question. But where's the usual data you need to determine if anything is "wrong" - how many elites on upgrade list, etc.? I was referring to the OP's example of something that was definitely NOT a TOD.

Looking at future dates on united.com, an H-fare round-trip is pricing out at $1179, with an M-fare round trip at $1485, so the "TOD" seems about right for this flight.

That being said, the more complicated you make the upgrade process, the more things agents can screw up.

Difference for travel today (even for tickets bought two weeks ago) is actually $290 each way, so I believe this does qualify as a TOD.

Look at the Hawaii example. TOD is shorthand and implies a high degree of discount relative to how UA values the premium cabin seat by other means.

Really? In my experience United values most premium cabin seats on domestic flights at zero dollars, which is why I seem to wind up sitting in 'em for free. :D

Realistically there's a spectrum of values, what with price segmentation and all that. My feeling on the *actual* value of a domestic first class seat is as follows: given the 38" seat pitch and 1.5x seat width of a typical domestic F seat compared to a typical E- seat, this means a domestic F seat is 1.8 times bigger than an E- seat. It "should" therefore sell for roughly 1.8 times the E- price, plus a slight premium for a cheap-... meal and possibly a couple of drinks... minus a fuel cost factor because I still weigh the same regardless of whether I'm taking up one seat or one point eight.

Anyway, I'd say that any upgrade price less than 80% of the economy fare is cheap... while anyone paying more than 1.8 times the economy fare out of their own pocket is a nut^H^H^H^H^H^H deeply price-insensitive. ;)

"Ridiculous TOD upgrade offers"? - Pity the GA didn't speak up - it would have been amusing to have them educate you on the spot that this wasn't a "TOD" offer at all, but a buy-up from your fare to the nearest one that would put you in the front cabin.


If the GA were familiar enough with the system to explain it in this manner, then they wouldn't have revoked it and rather explained to the GS that TODs are first-come first-served, and that COdbaUA is happy to sell that upgrade out from under the GS for $169.

Yes $200 in vouchers and a refund of the TOD fee on the spot.

Well good. I'm saying that I like to hear stories where "taking the high road" does get you something. You received $200 and some extra courtesy for the crew.

I just figured if he/she was going to put up such a fuss over a 4 hour flight that they must need it more than me. Also to be clear if this was IAD-someplace far away, I would have fought it till the end.

I did get a small "nod" when I walked by the FC cabin.


I understand your thinking but my guess is that this person is used to whining more than you are used to hearing it. But . . . at least you got a courtesy nod . . . and that is more than I expected here from her. So I'm no longer 100% at predicting a DYKWIA response. Shucks!

I'm somewhat tempted to try this on a flight next time I'm not near the top of the list. Just hang out within earshot of the gate and wait for disgruntled GS to approach.

+1 for HUMOR. This man knows the game . . . and is NOT afraid to play it! Don't hate the player . . . hate the game. ^

A fundamental change seems to have occurred in domestic US travel in the past 4 years or so: It used to be that planned, non-refundable F was many many times more expensive than coach, so one would work towards status, buy coach tickets and use status, mileage or other mechanisms to reach F. I recall flights to Hawaii in F costing 4-6x that of Y (with advance purchase).

Once Silver became worthless, I have noted that outright buying F (A fare) in advance (personal travel) is maybe 2x the price of coach, and is often now within my budget / willingness to pay, and less hassle then trying to work the present UA mess. Tomorrow I fly delta on F transcon, purchased. In two weeks I fly HA to LIH, purchased. In two months I fly US in F, again, purchased. These all used to be UA coach tickets that I would have formerly upgraded. When I deduct luggage fees and so on, the gap is even narrower. Eliminating the need for mileage runs to achieve 2P, etc, for a few trips a year, it now makes the economic argument to buy F much more reasonable. Not being beholden to any one airline is another bonus.

I get the GS's point, but the financial gap between purchasing domestic First versus Coach seems to have narrowed domestically, and the OP was gracious to walk away from his purchased upgrade.

International, it remains financially exorbitant, and miles / status still matter there. That is what Chase VISA still does for me (*A premium cabin vacations).

It's a new price structure and paradigm, along with the various fees.

The craziest part of this post is that you didn't take the cookie.... Love those warm cookies...