Flying Blue (Air France, KLM, and Other Partners) - business class AF or KL

a friend is 6.6 tall and has to choose between AF and KL for his c class trips from europe to south america. which c-class is better AF or KL? any advise welcome.

They're equally ****, but if I were him I'd go with AF, it's more up to date than KL

I found KL's cradle j seat is more comfortable for sleeping. Hate AF's nev4 J seat as the bed could be very slippery sometimes.

The cradle seat works for small people, but not at all for someone 6'6". I'm 6'1" and I hate both equally. The best is the A380 which means AF if you manage to find it on your route. Get a window seat and rest your legs on the side bins.

Tell your friend to use the sling trick where you extend the seat belt all the way and run it under your butt like a sling. That way you hopefully won't slide down the seat when your muscles relax during sleep.

I'm tall and I'd take a A388 of AF over KL any day of the week
Best skyteam J is new AZ J ( by a mile )

Tell your friend to use the sling trick where you extend the seat belt all the way and run it under your butt like a sling. That way you hopefully won't slide down the seat when your muscles relax during sleep.

That must lead to interesting converstations when the cabin crew comes to check that you have seat belt on, and visible over your blanket!

Anyway, all this talk of the A380 is of no use to the OP - Air France does not currently fly the A380 to any South American destinations.

Tell your friend to use the sling trick where you extend the seat belt all the way and run it under your butt like a sling. That way you hopefully won't slide down the seat when your muscles relax during sleep.

This is exactly what I have found also.

Fly AZ - that is an option to S America

Fly AZ - that is an option to S America

Good suggestion! Although I'm a star alliance flier I flew on AZ last week and was thoroughly pleased. They've certainly upped their game!

On longhaul J I'd take AZ over AF or KL on any route served by new A330 or 777

Just avoid old A332 and 764 ( which on truth are 763 )

AZ flat bed is top top quality. Flat, spacious, huge TV and very private

I flew the new flat bed on AZ. Plus big scree, good food/wine, service. Way better than AF.
Maybe a bankruptcy is the way to go for AF.

I flew the new flat bed on AZ. Plus big scree, good food/wine, service.

Told you ;)

Told you ;)

That is why I flew AZ. Many thanks

but was worried about a/c swap. Did not happen

That is why I flew AZ. Many thanks

but was worried about a/c swap. Did not happen

No way of being sure but basically if the flight has got premium economy "classica plus" it's the new plane / new fit so it's got new J

All MXP flights SHOULD be new A330 (so MXP - JFK / MIA)

FCO -> JFK - LAX - MIA are nearly always new J

ORD - BOS - YYZ -> hardly ever new J

South America normally new J. Maybe Caracas is only destination not normally served by new A330

Not sure on Japan

I've got back from US recently. Flew out F with BA and back with AZ ex LAX in J and preferred AZ seat. The amazing thing is that it is so private
Similar to new DL businessfirst seat but personally I prefer AZ seat^

No way of being sure but basically if the flight has got premium economy "classica plus" it's the new plane / new fit so it's got new J

All MXP flights SHOULD be new A330 (so MXP - JFK / MIA)

FCO -> JFK - LAX - MIA are nearly always new J

ORD - BOS - YYZ -> hardly ever new J

South America normally new J. Maybe Caracas is only destination not normally served by new A330

Not sure on Japan

I've got back from US recently. Flew out F with BA and back with AZ ex LAX in J and preferred AZ seat. The amazing thing is that it is so private
Similar to new DL businessfirst seat but personally I prefer AZ seat^

I flew FCO KIX : the FCO KIX with the new product, the KIX FCO with the old one.

The new AZ J is a wonderful product :

- very good seat ;

- good TV (but it is not very important in my opinion) ;

- if you have to work, it is very convenient ;

- food is amazing.



(To moderators : I am not allowed to post on two forums, but I really think this opinion is relevant for both forums. This one because of the choice between carriers ; the AZ one).

I must add that, IMHO, the AF and KL J products are good ones.

I am 6' tall, I never had any problem sleeping in the J seats (I suppose it is a question of position, a very personal issue), but I must admit the flat AZ (and its "cosy" environment) is a way above.

I must add that, IMHO, the AF and KL J products are good ones.

I am 6' tall, I never had any problem sleeping in the J seats (I suppose it is a question of position, a very personal issue), but I must admit the flat AZ (and its "cosy" environment) is a way above.

Depends what is your benchmark. Compared to Y or Y+, AF and KL J products are excellent. Compared to solo flat beds of the majority of other airlines, the pair or trio seats are mediocre. And the NEV2 still found on many planes are antique and back-torture.

That is why I flew AZ. Many thanks

but was worried about a/c swap. Did not happen

Glad you enjoyed it. Aircraft swap/old planes is a legitimate concern, but to be honest, as time goes by, it is an increasingly remote possibility. I must say that (admittedly with a smaller fleet), AZ is proving faster at installing its new product than AF ever was for any one version of their new seats (with the possible exception of NEV4 but I'm not even sure).

AZ also has new arrivals of the New A330's

Soon old A330's and 763's will start to be phased out / used on charter operations so New J will gradually be guaranteed

777 refits aren't taking long and the plane I took ten days ago had new fittings with still the old livery on the outside of the plane!

I would choose KL over AF. They are very similar, but I like AMS better than CDG. (The delft house is a nice touch too.)

AZ is proving faster at installing its new product than AF ever was for any one version of their new seats (with the possible exception of NEV4 but I'm not even sure).

AF has been fast on NEV4 because it is just a newer, lighter version of the same seat. They just "unclip" the old seat and "clip" the new one. Same wiring, same avod.
On the other hand, AZ flat beds are totally different and need a new seat plan, wiring, new avod, etc... It takes considerably more time to retrofit.

Any thoughts on best Biz seat on KLM's a332?

AF has been fast on NEV4 because it is just a newer, lighter version of the same seat. They just "unclip" the old seat and "clip" the new one. Same wiring, same avod.
On the other hand, AZ flat beds are totally different and need a new seat plan, wiring, new avod, etc... It takes considerably more time to retrofit.

Exactly, and despite that, AZ will soon complete the retrofit. I say that there is something quite likeable about the new AZ, and it is not only the new (in my view great) product, but what comes across as a genuine willingness to act and 'build' a new, better airline.

I agree with orbitmic but I would add that when talking about AZ vs AF / KL its as much about AF / KL not improving as AZ moving up a notch ( or even two ). KL and AF do not have a competitive J product in 2012 both on and off the plane

Back to AZ - they have now announced a FCO - AUH further enhancing their relationship with EY. Will be served by new A330 so guaranteed new J

I agree with orbitmic but I would add that when talking about AZ vs AF / KL its as much about AF / KL not improving as AZ moving up a notch ( or even two ). KL and AF do not have a competitive J product in 2012 both on and off the plane

Back to AZ - they have now announced a FCO - AUH further enhancing their relationship with EY. Will be served by new A330 so guaranteed new J

Indeed. The interesting part is that the FCO-AUH flight will be operated by AZ while the Milano flights are operated by EY. EY is rightly renowned for its outstanding premium products. The new AZ J product is not inconsistent with this image, but hard to see that they would be happy to put their codeshare on a longhaul AFKL J product. Clients expecting the great EY premium products would be highly disappointed to get AF instead.

BTW, I think that this old post on skytrax fairly summarizes AF new seat:
http://www.airlinequality.com/news/airfranceSEP_2010.htm

I've flown on the MXP - AUH route with EY in Y and it was my best Economy flight. Excellent

No doubt AZ J and EY J are similar now - in Y EY are still way ahead

Haven't looked which terminal in AUH AZ will use. Would be great to be able to use EY business terminal

Btw - do AF still serve AUH?

Indeed. The interesting part is that the FCO-AUH flight will be operated by AZ while the Milano flights are operated by EY. EY is rightly renowned for its outstanding premium products. The new AZ J product is not inconsistent with this image, but hard to see that they would be happy to put their codeshare on a longhaul AFKL J product. Clients expecting the great EY premium products would be highly disappointed to get AF instead.

BTW, I think that this old post on skytrax fairly summarizes AF new seat:
http://www.airlinequality.com/news/airfranceSEP_2010.htm

To extend your comment about EY code-sharing on AF, for many years, AZ itself has heavily code-shared on AF long haul. I would expect that for many years, AZ passengers were quite happy to be on an AF code-share, but to be honest, nowadays, I would personally make an effort to be on AZ metal if possible rather than AF (or for that matter DL who operate most of the Italian flights with angled lie flat 332 or 333 and some craddle 763).

As a reminder, AF have promised us a totally new experience and cabins in J and P which would be 'best in the industry' in 2013. I seriously hope that they are monitoring AZ's product and that this will be their inspiration. I would be entirely happy with AF and KL simply poaching AZ's new hard product and even parts of the soft product. For example, adapting the AZ's 'regional menus and wines' system to France would be both natural and quite inspiring - with all due respect to our Dutch friends, admittedly harder to imagine for KLM but I'm sure they could find an alternative. In fact, even amenity bags are incredibly better on AZ than on AF and KL!...

To extend your comment about EY code-sharing on AF, for many years, AZ itself has heavily code-shared on AF long haul. I would expect that for many years, AZ passengers were quite happy to be on an AF code-share, but to be honest, nowadays, I would personally make an effort to be on AZ metal if possible rather than AF (or for that matter DL who operate most of the Italian flights with angled lie flat 332 or 333 and some craddle 763).

As a reminder, AF have promised us a totally new experience and cabins in J and P which would be 'best in the industry' in 2013. I seriously hope that they are monitoring AZ's product and that this will be their inspiration. I would be entirely happy with AF and KL simply poaching AZ's new hard product and even parts of the soft product. For example, adapting the AZ's 'regional menus and wines' system to France would be both natural and quite inspiring - with all due respect to our Dutch friends, admittedly harder to imagine for KLM but I'm sure they could find an alternative. In fact, even amenity bags are incredibly better on AZ than on AF and KL!...

Whilst unable to comment on the new AZ's long-haul product, I am perhaps not the only one who's rather sceptic and overall let's say not inclined to book an AZ flight due to their disgraceful way of handling issues. Without going into much detail (I also appreciate to be slightly off-topic): if everything goes right, then great; as soon as things start going wrong (i.e. a delay, a cancellation or any other problem you would normally encounter when travelling a lot), then you're up for some troubles (e.g. terrible customer service and so on).

Whilst unable to comment on the new AZ's long-haul product, I am perhaps not the only one who's rather sceptic and overall let's say not inclined to book an AZ flight due to their disgraceful way of handling issues. Without going into much detail (I also appreciate to be slightly off-topic): if everything goes right, then great; as soon as things start going wrong (i.e. a delay, a cancellation or any other problem you would normally encounter when travelling a lot), then you're up for some troubles (e.g. terrible customer service and so on).

I have had problem with AZ 'off the air' service with my last trip. Two of my segments confirmed in J first disappeared then reappeared but ticketed in Y. It was hell to get the situation resolved and extremely frustrating but somehow, it did get sorted out at the end.

On the other hand in previous trips - in both Y and C - I have had my fare share of irrops with AZ (not more than with others but as I travel quite a lot it adds up quickly) and I must say that while I appreciate I may have been lucky and much depends on the individual person dealing with you, every time so far, AZ was absolutely fantastic. ^ For example, virtually all my flights are connecting, and every time, AZ rerouted me directly when possible even if it meant rerouting me on other airlines (so basically, at the boarding gate in LHR, they would have a BA ticket ready for me instead of routing me via FCO). This is WAY better than what I experienced on AF, BA, KL (all typically: "you have to go to Paris/London/Amsterdam and they will reaccommodate you there" - stupid) and worst of all, my current pet hate, LX who have costed me two full days of my life (yes, that's 48 hours) in cumulated delays already in 2012 and can't even be a*sed to answer the complaint I sent in June or the reminder/copy I sent in July.

AlicorporareUK I know what you mean about AZ and its not that AZ have completely changed overnight. But they have done three major things

- buy new planes introducibg an amazing J cabin. I kid you not in saying that I would almost describe it as F 'minus' and if you get the new J seat its impossible to have a bad experience onboard

- improve punctuality - massively

- keep MM very attractive with less miles required vs FB on most routes and FAR less taxes ( fco - lax roughly 250 euros RETURN in J)
ok no promo awards though and availabilty not great

Some other things haven't changed ( short haul pretty grim sometimes ) - call centres often poor ( but at least they remain open ) and lounges ( a skyteam speciality... ) poor

But over KL ( have been on 772 and 74M recently, last 12 months) and AF ( A388 and 744) I'd take AZ in longhaul J any day of the week. The new J product really is that gd

Give AZ a go - orbitmic makes many a valid point as well

One thing I wished to add to my AZ experience.
I find AF onboard service lacking. FAs are elegant, professional-looking and chatty. But often you end up with a crew doing minimal service. They enjoy chatting with selected pax (and between themselves) but they seldom walk up and down the J cabin to check is everything is OK and a refill is needed. They do not answer the call button. Once dinner is served, they retire and good luck to get their attention. Again, I sometimes (rarely) get a more attentive team. I had used AZ before their bankruptcy and privatization. But my recent AZ flight was totally different in terms of service and quite impressive. You could feel "motivation". The difference with a semi-civil-servant attitude à la AF or old-AZ was impressive..

I just took another trip on the AF A380 in J. Other than a couple delays which weren't the fault of AF, everything about the flight was perfect. Great food, wine and service aboard a modern aircraft with excellent IFE and a well equipped seat. I couldn't complain about a single thing. Well except for one giant festering problem. I couldn't sleep on this red-eye due to the slanted seat. :mad:

I just took another trip on the AF A380 in J. Other than a couple delays which weren't the fault of AF, everything about the flight was perfect. Great food, wine and service aboard a modern aircraft with excellent IFE and a well equipped seat. I couldn't complain about a single thing. Well except for one giant festering problem. I couldn't sleep on this red-eye due to the slanted seat. :mad:

I like the A388 and very much enjoyed my J flight with AF

Didn't attempt sleeping though as I was going Westbound / day flight

Anything that isn't flat ain't going to get you the best "nights" sleep though

Great food, wine and service

I just experienced the opposite: a so-so service, with really downhill food.

Out of my C experiences in the last few months, I must say that AZ still stands as the best one, BA comes a close second, and AF goes happily in the last place.