United MileagePlus (Consolidated) - It's all about the customer stupid

Without the customer there is no revenue, without revenue there is no survival.

So my open question to the United board is, Who is in charge of keeping the customers coming back? I've been a 1K for around 10 years and this year as a result of the "Jeff effect" I have flown less than a third from previous years at this time. Add to this the minus of the "family effect", e.g. for every elite you lose, you lose their family's revenue as well, it's geometric and not singular.

Now if this were my company I would know who my top tier customers were and I would be tracking their travel and I would know if there was a decline in real time. This is just good business practice. It's not rocket science. If there was a decline I would immediately do whatever it took to get them back on track. Maybe discount coupons or some other targeted incentive. What is often forgotten is that it takes a whole lot of time and money to cultivate a loyal customer and it only takes one misplaced MBA to blow it to dust.

I'm quite amazed that I haven't had any communication concerning my drop off in business. This is just plain incompetence. I'm in sales and this is business 101.

I don't know shares but I do know a number of data base programmers who could easily have a report on a receptive CEO's desk in one day of who needed some love...and in case you forgot, it is love that makes the world go round.

I'm quite amazed that I haven't had any communication concerning my drop off in business. This is just plain incompetence. I'm in sales and this is business 101.


Mmmm-hmmm? And how many customers do you have? Ten million? Perhaps the 80,000 which is estimated as the number of current 1Ks?

I think you're vastly overestimating your own importance here, dude. Take a chill pill.

The moment I slowed down on travel with British Airways, which I flew 100K, in addition to UA, BA called me up to see what was going on.

United doesn't want us - we are "over-entitled" and expensive. I've never ever seen anything like it in my life. They just don't care about the "elites"/long-term customer. It's about the "now", the average passenger and how much money can they squeeze out of him/her from the moment they purchase their ticket (or hold it for x amount of days for $ and then purchase) to the moment their itinerary is completed.

As elites, we get things for free and we are expensive. However, what Jeff and Co doesn't get is EXACTLY what you state above...the repeat customer leaves and with him/her there's a trickle effect to friends and family. Some here are waiting for the floor to drop, the other side think it's going to work in UA's favour.

In my line of work, the customer experience has to be exceptional - from start to finish. Case studies throughout history has shown customer service is very important in running a company - especially the repeat business (you think?). So it will be interesting to see.

The odds of UA calling a 1K are slim, unless someone has something to share differently - and if you do get one...you MUST post it and tell us, it will be a very first. There are a few here, like TIMOS who got a phone call from the GS desk (as a few others), which was an anomaly.

I have been a 1K every year for the past 15 years, a GS since it started and I dropped my travel to maybe 10% - heard nothing. And I spent a good $50K-$70K a year. It breaks my heart, but it's not the same United.

May I ask where have you taken your travel to instead of UA?

Safe travels,

UG

Mmmm-hmmm? And how many customers do you have? Ten million? Perhaps the 80,000 which is estimated as the number of current 1Ks?

I think you're vastly overestimating your own importance here, dude. Take a chill pill.


Like I said, British Airways called me after six months...it all depends on whether the customer is considered important to the company, be it 800,000 or 80,000.

Mmmm-hmmm? And how many customers do you have? Ten million? Perhaps the 80,000 which is estimated as the number of current 1Ks?

I think you're vastly overestimating your own importance here, dude. Take a chill pill.

Sorry dude, but you're wrong. Like the other poster who had BA call, I know of two occurrences of AA calling EXP's who had a drop in flying. United is simply incompetent.

United is simply incompetent.

Or Smart. I know a number of 1Ks that will spend only a few grand so unless a person is spending some big $$$ CO probably wont care if they leave.

Could be BA and AA kept track of $$ spent , remember a person can spend a few grand on a NY-NRT tkt and CO will make alot more profit off that 1 tkt then the tkts a 1K buys to earn 1K

I love these threads where the poster is all upset they aren't flying United much anymore and United doesn't call them. Just move on. If they thought you were important enough they'd contact you. United made over $300 million last quarter - they don't need you.

Or Smart. I know a number of 1Ks that will spend only a few grand so unless a person is spending some big $$$ CO probably wont care if they leave.



About $50K a year between the CEO & me. No calls, no nothing. I did however write the single strongest business letter of my career to the Pass Plus Dept after they showed me the 2012 "Changes I'll Like" Program".

I felt genuine shame from our UA Sales mgr. You could tell he was truly embarrased have to hawk the 2012 "Switch & bait, smoke & mirrors program"!

Mmmm-hmmm? And how many customers do you have? Ten million? Perhaps the 80,000 which is estimated as the number of current 1Ks?

I think you're vastly overestimating your own importance here, dude. Take a chill pill.

Flyingeagle is right on! The number doesn't matter. Plenty of Sales/Customer Senior Managers deal with this, and on a larger scale than this company. It's called managing the business for the long-term. It has been proven to cost more money and require more time to cultivate new customers than to properly serve and retain existing customers.

Then as he has said, a simple report "can tell anyone who cares" what their best and most valuable customers are doing, at least pertaining to history. In a single day, I would as a Sales/Marketing Manager for this company, develop programs to get them back on my planes. They have mailing and email addresses, along with phone numbers. Call those in the top third, send personal letters to the middle third and email the bottom third. Offer them incentives, apologize for the trouble/inconvenience and tell them what is being done to correct all these measures. In other words, COMMUNICATE. Businesses cannot be managed in a vacuum/cave, which is what appears to be happening here. If customers matter, and in a service channel of trade, those customers are invaluable.

This business model does not work. The operation is compounding the problem. Come September, the revenue coming in at the top, will be proven not to exceed the revenue falling off the bottom. Then, come Nov-Mar, they had better hope not a single snowflake drops. That kind of IRROPS would be catastrophic.

Smi/J does not have the buy-in of his employees. Thats where the rubber meets the road. He has put most of them in untenable positions. I don't see an end-game that can overcome this problem. At best, it would take many years to overcome the damage he has caused. The best and quickest way out of this is to start over with a clean slate. The stripes on this zebra won't be changing any time soon. Ask the bulk of the employees, ask the many of the pmCO customers, ask the more than handful of the pmUA customers and ask the Gang of 11.

October will be the month of change for this regime.

Six of us from my company have a busy travel month in October, and on AA and DL. Absolutely no UA. I made sure of that. I hope I don't miss the news as it occurs.

quote from PMCO: "we are here to make money"
so, if you are leaving because you don't like paying ridiculously high price for a poor service, they are not going to hand you discount coupons.

Instead, they may send you a survey about whether you
(1) like their coffee or
(2) love their coffee

as a reminder of their ego

I, too have had calls from BA when my business dropped off. However, UA is possibly in a strange position. IMO it is a combination of things which puts UA so behind the pack as well as uncaring

A) SHARES - I truly don't believe they have a clue as to which customers have left, which one are new, etc

B) THEY DONT CARE - This a certainly part if it too. Planes are full. They could care a less who's in the seats. Ifpn fact, based on statements that have come from Jeff in the past, I would bet he prefers these seats be filled by other then Elite passengers so he can collect all those fees. This way work for now, but the first time passenger traffic drops off, UA will feel the pain.

C). He (jeff) is in denial. He does not believe that many Elites have left. I agree a little w this statement. I don't think as many left as some of us think. However, that's no excuse. They should fight for each passenger

I, too have had calls from BA when my business dropped off. However, UA is possibly in a strange position. IMO it is a combination of things which puts UA so behind the pack as well as uncaring

A) SHARES - I truly don't believe they have a clue as to which customers have left, which one are new, etc

B) THEY DONT CARE - This a certainly part if it too. Planes are full. They could care a less who's in the seats. Ifpn fact, based on statements that have come from Jeff in the past, I would bet he prefers these seats be filled by other then Elite passengers so he can collect all those fees. This way work for now, but the first time passenger traffic drops off, UA will feel the pain.

C). He (jeff) is in denial. He does not believe that many Elites have left. I agree a little w this statement. I don't think as many left as some of us think. However, that's no excuse. They should fight for each passenger

I think UA can tell you if their business has dropped off. They can see it in their revenue and the number of tickets sold.

I believe in $mi$ek mind he believes that customers are like cattle they will blindly do what they always do because they don't have a choice. I also believe that they know they can drop the price $5 and that will get people to jump on the planes. At least thats how it looks from my viewpoint.

I think UA can tell you if their business has dropped off. They can see it in their revenue and the number of tickets sold.

I believe in $mi$ek mind he believes that customers are like cattle they will blindly do what they always do because they don't have a choice. I also believe that they know they can drop the price $5 and that will get people to jump on the planes. At least thats how it looks from my viewpoint.

PMCO was the last ones to stop serving meals in Y and was the last Major to charge for bags. They thought by still giving meals and not charging for bags the sales would increase,turns out it didnt and thusly no more meals and bag fees

Mmmm-hmmm? And how many customers do you have? Ten million? Perhaps the 80,000 which is estimated as the number of current 1Ks?

I think you're vastly overestimating your own importance here, dude. Take a chill pill.

Mmmmm-hmmmm back at you good buddy. Never said that I thought that I was important but if 80,000 other 1K's feel the same way I do then it's trouble for United down the road. Just adding my voice to the chorus... and the chorus seems to be growing. I don't know about you but perhaps you're sitting in the audience.

Mmmmm- take a chill pill now should I? I'm thinking I'd prefer a nice glass of wine on the deck of Auberge du Soleil overlooking Napa Valley thank you very much. I'm thinking maybe a Cakebread Dancing Bear cab or perhaps Duckhorn's "Discussion". Yes, the "Discussion", that would be appropriate :)

As for where have I gone...I'm spreading the love around, just spreading the love.

PMCO was the last ones to stop serving meals in Y and was the last Major to charge for bags. They thought by still giving meals and not charging for bags the sales would increase,turns out it didnt and thusly no more meals and bag fees

Was SMI/J the CEO at the time those decisions were made? What has occurred that has changed his mindset?

I love the comments in this thread that try to suggest that "CO" or "SHARES" is so incompetent that they have no idea what their passengers are doing.

The reality couldn't be more different. Here is just one document that covers, in plenty of detail, what they were doing several years ago. Guess what PSS was in use at the time? I know for a fact that 4-5 years ago they were way ahead of what any other US airline was doing in this space - I haven't kept up with the detail since:

http://www.fuqua-europe.duke.edu/centers/ccrm/datasets/continental/Continental_Airlines_Case_Study.pdf

The most likely reason that we're not seeing a nimble, quick-acting response to changing customer travel profiles is that they just finished a rather substantial merger and are still focusing on the operational metrics. Once you get that right you can focus on more nebulous things like this.

Was SMI/J the CEO at the time those decisions were made? What has occurred that has changed his mindset?

No, Bethune was. The decision to stop serving meals in Y came right after 9/11 as a cost cutting measure and CO was the only one that did not follow suit. Perhaps the reason they discontinued meals was seeing the other airlines had eventually turned it into a revenue item.

If it were my business I would have a meeitng with my sales team, it would go something like this:

The Speech (http://youtu.be/mU2rpcAABbA)

it is damn shame UA does not practice what it once preached. AA is eating UA's lunch when it comes to wooing elites. I have already received two calls from AA since my status match asking how I like AA and if there is anything they can do assist in transitioning my business.

I agree with most of the points raised, but have some additional thoughts.

UA operational metrics are horrible. I would not advocate luring customers back onto the airline until they make reasonable progress in on-time performance. Why beg people to fly your airline when you are just going to cancel the flight or strand them somewhere? (exaggerating somewhat, but proving a point)

I would also add most of the SHARES nonsense into this as well...seating assignments, lost segments, ticket (non)synching, mileage posting. etc. The entire customer experience is sorely lacking.

And I agree, communication is really needed now. I recall one email several months ago, which was mostly a passive "sorry you are inconvenienced" message, directly from UA. Other than that, just spam about weekly (non)specials.

Even on FT, UA Insider started a whole thread about "post your integration issues"....but has not updated the issue list since March 31....:confused:

When...or if...they get ops back under control, then would be the time for sales promotions.

By the way, the financials are going to get worse. A portion of air travel is purchased in advance. There is a lag time between ticking off customers and seeing the impact.

The odds of UA calling a 1K are slim, unless someone has something to share differently - and if you do get one...you MUST post it and tell us, it will be a very first. There are a few here, like TIMOS who got a phone call from the GS desk (as a few others), which was an anomaly.



To me it feels more like the company is a bit out of control and spinning its wheels sporadically in different directions, rather than a dastardly plot by one individual. It's pretty obvious to me that the high-end customers would provide the most profit margin per head, as they might actually buy C and F travel. Probably most mid-level managers at the new UA are afraid to propose anything outside the box and are simply keeping their heads down so their salaries don't become part of the cost savings!

Oh, about 6 weeks ago, and much to my surprise, I received a call from "Mileage Plus customer service" to ask if my previous inquiry to 1K Voice had been handled properly. I said that I hadn't gotten the mileage refund yet, and she made it happen within 2 days and called me back to make sure it did. So miracles occasionally happen..


Even on FT, UA Insider started a whole thread about "post your integration issues"....but has not updated the issue list since March 31....:confused:

When...or if...they get ops back under control, then would be the time for sales promotions.

By the way, the financials are going to get worse. A portion of air travel is purchased in advance. There is a lag time between ticking off customers and seeing the impact.

All good points. I thought I saw that UA Insider did answer a few posts in the last few days, but not in the thread you mention.

UA operational metrics are horrible. I would not advocate luring customers back onto the airline until they make reasonable progress in on-time performance. Why beg people to fly your airline when you are just going to cancel the flight or strand them somewhere? (exaggerating somewhat, but proving a point)

Very good point. I agree that when the theater is on fire may not be the best time to be selling tickets to the next show.

At the moment the next show is looking like a Greek Tragedy.

Oh, about 6 weeks ago, and much to my surprise, I received a call from "Mileage Plus customer service" to ask if my previous inquiry to 1K Voice had been handled properly. I said that I hadn't gotten the mileage refund yet, and she made it happen within 2 days and called me back to make sure it did. So miracles occasionally happen..

Why aren't we hearing more about good things like this happening? I think it would go a long way to hear about some of the positives, the problem is they are so few and far between.

Flyingeagle is right on! The number doesn't matter. Plenty of Sales/Customer Senior Managers deal with this, and on a larger scale than this company. It's called managing the business for the long-term. It has been proven to cost more money and require more time to cultivate new customers than to properly serve and retain existing customers.

Then as he has said, a simple report "can tell anyone who cares" what their best and most valuable customers are doing, at least pertaining to history. In a single day, I would as a Sales/Marketing Manager for this company, develop programs to get them back on my planes. They have mailing and email addresses, along with phone numbers. Call those in the top third, send personal letters to the middle third and email the bottom third. Offer them incentives, apologize for the trouble/inconvenience and tell them what is being done to correct all these measures. In other words, COMMUNICATE. Businesses cannot be managed in a vacuum/cave, which is what appears to be happening here. If customers matter, and in a service channel of trade, those customers are invaluable.

This business model does not work. The operation is compounding the problem. Come September, the revenue coming in at the top, will be proven not to exceed the revenue falling off the bottom. Then, come Nov-Mar, they had better hope not a single snowflake drops. That kind of IRROPS would be catastrophic.

Smi/J does not have the buy-in of his employees. Thats where the rubber meets the road. He has put most of them in untenable positions. I don't see an end-game that can overcome this problem. At best, it would take many years to overcome the damage he has caused. The best and quickest way out of this is to start over with a clean slate. The stripes on this zebra won't be changing any time soon. Ask the bulk of the employees, ask the many of the pmCO customers, ask the more than handful of the pmUA customers and ask the Gang of 11.

October will be the month of change for this regime.

Six of us from my company have a busy travel month in October, and on AA and DL. Absolutely no UA. I made sure of that. I hope I don't miss the news as it occurs.

Spot on. Especially about the part about the clean slate.

Removing Jeff will be the first of many changes that need to be made. Changes I think I'll like.

1. As a starting point, OP is a $25K customer (he & his CEO combine at $50K). They are also dependent on a business program which UA management has determined was not particularly profitable. Were OP & his CEO flying in paid F, Y/B/M or are they heavy travelers but buy non-refundable discounts?

2. UA clearly is shifting to a model focused on large business discounts where the CEO and presumably OP would be "granted" GS. Why? Because 1K has become diluted.

I do know that UA sales people are chasing to customers down and trying to make it better. But, they are being selective. Why? Because there's not much competition and there soon may be less.

Well said!

Flyingeagle is right on! The number doesn't matter. Plenty of Sales/Customer Senior Managers deal with this, and on a larger scale than this company. It's called managing the business for the long-term. It has been proven to cost more money and require more time to cultivate new customers than to properly serve and retain existing customers.

Then as he has said, a simple report "can tell anyone who cares" what their best and most valuable customers are doing, at least pertaining to history. In a single day, I would as a Sales/Marketing Manager for this company, develop programs to get them back on my planes. They have mailing and email addresses, along with phone numbers. Call those in the top third, send personal letters to the middle third and email the bottom third. Offer them incentives, apologize for the trouble/inconvenience and tell them what is being done to correct all these measures. In other words, COMMUNICATE. Businesses cannot be managed in a vacuum/cave, which is what appears to be happening here. If customers matter, and in a service channel of trade, those customers are invaluable.

This business model does not work. The operation is compounding the problem. Come September, the revenue coming in at the top, will be proven not to exceed the revenue falling off the bottom. Then, come Nov-Mar, they had better hope not a single snowflake drops. That kind of IRROPS would be catastrophic.

Smi/J does not have the buy-in of his employees. Thats where the rubber meets the road. He has put most of them in untenable positions. I don't see an end-game that can overcome this problem. At best, it would take many years to overcome the damage he has caused. The best and quickest way out of this is to start over with a clean slate. The stripes on this zebra won't be changing any time soon. Ask the bulk of the employees, ask the many of the pmCO customers, ask the more than handful of the pmUA customers and ask the Gang of 11.

October will be the month of change for this regime.

Six of us from my company have a busy travel month in October, and on AA and DL. Absolutely no UA. I made sure of that. I hope I don't miss the news as it occurs.

The most likely reason that we're not seeing a nimble, quick-acting response to changing customer travel profiles is that they just finished a rather substantial merger and are still focusing on the operational metrics. Once you get that right you can focus on more nebulous things like this.

One would think these aren't mutually exclusive. AA is somehow going through the bankruptcy process AND has launched a program to nab UA VFFs/HFVs.

I agree with the OP that it is a short-sighted business policy.

I'm not at all shocked by it. And I don't think it is due to stupidity . . . it was a calculated business decision.

UA FFs might not think that UA's course as far as treatment of elites is the right one, but someone in a board room at UA made a case otherwise using metrics we might not see as obvious. Example: Offering inexpensive, last minute upgrades to non-elites makes you some money right now, but loses you more in the long run . . . it is possible that the CEO is really, really okay with that.

Afterall, we have no real knowledge of what really drives the CEO comp-wise, or even how long he wants to be with the company. He has a "vision", but his "reality" may be that this is just a temporary gig. Failure and alienation of your best customers may be okay . . . he'll land with his golden parachute and move on. You have no real idea if that is his plan or not.

I do get it . . . you should treat your best customers well. It just may not be the CEO's priority.

Let me give you a non-airline industry example: HP had Mark Hurd as CEO . . . he slashed payroll, slashed workforce, closed sites, and made the balance sheet look really, really good. The stock price rocketed. However, he didn't invest in innovation . . . if a product didn't immediately contribute to this Q's revenue, it was tabled, cutback, or canceled.

Mark had 100s of 1000s of shares of HP, and he was paid on immediate profitability of the company, handsomely. So, mortgaging the future was no big deal for the near-term goals. Now he's gone, dismissed for having an affair with a consultant. Kept his winnings and got a golden parachute, and a new job with a competitor of HP's to boot. HP's stock has plummeted, and no one is really sure of their strategic technological direction. They are in part, set back because of near-term thinking that cost them long-term growth. Only time will see if they recover.

UA could be in the same boat. The reasons why . . . well, I think we know of.

United doesn't want us - we are "over-entitled" and expensive. I've never ever seen anything like it in my life.

My travel on UA this year is lower than it's ever been at this point in the year in as long as I can remember, and for the first time in probably more than 6 years, I've got no future travel booked with them.

No special offers. No calls. No emails. No care. Nothing.

Clearly, we don't fit into the low-end second-tier kettle mentality that's taken over this company.

A) SHARES - I truly don't believe they have a clue as to which customers have left, which one are new, etc.

I would rethink this statement. I'm not trying to unduly put you on the spot here, but in your own conversation with the UA mgr. you had, he'd done his homework:

UA Passenger Info (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/18585613-post236.html)

"He called prepared for me as besides having my MP/Customer info, he also had my companies, my business partners and those of the employees who were on the cancelled tkts (all of whom range from Gold - 1K (our sales manager is a GS (thru pass plus) but he didn't have his info since he was not part of those returned tickets)."

I don't know what system MileagePlus runs on, but they can definitely pull up past history to evaluate who is flying and who isn't. All it takes is some effort and interest on their part. Just food for thought.

B) THEY DONT CARE - This a certainly part if it too. Planes are full. They could care a less who's in the seats ...

Certainly part of it, but it's probably a matter of triage. Certainly UA knows they're losing high-value passengers, but in their shoes, where do they place their resources? Solving the problems of what's been causing delays and IROPS, or sitting down to phone the pax who aren't flying any longer, only to be told it's because of an unreliable schedule, lack of upgrades, etc., which they already know about?

Posters such as 1KPath have had coupons and upgrades and other offers tossed his way after moving his and his organization's business away from UA, but it's not enough. UA can't successfully lure lost passengers back until their schedule is reliable again.

C). He (jeff) is in denial.

I'd change that to "in over his head." But that's a personal opinion based on anecdotal reports, not access to anyone inside UA. It appears UA was caught off-guard with the success of AA's status match (again, opinion), and are now left with pax asking why UA doesn't care about them as much as their new suitor is.

One would think these aren't mutually exclusive. AA is somehow going through the bankruptcy process AND has launched a program to nab UA VFFs/HFVs.

Going through a Ch. 11 process is trivial compared with going through a large merger.

If it were my business I would have a meeitng with my sales team, it would go something like this:

The Speech (http://youtu.be/mU2rpcAABbA)

it is damn shame UA does not practice what it once preached. AA is eating UA's lunch when it comes to wooing elites. I have already received two calls from AA since my status match asking how I like AA and if there is anything they can do assist in transitioning my business.

Thanks for sharing that. I found that commercial haunting . . . while I DO remember viewing that commercial on TV in the past, I can't imagine ANY airline thinking along those lines any more. Airline industry has changed quite a bit, as the video evidence has shown.

BTW . . . thanks for sharing your experiences with AA. While I generally lump all US airlines into the "equally bad" category, which is a cynical view, it is good to read of evidence that at least one airline is working to sway, keep, and personally treat well FFs. That's why AA has a case for UA elites.

Mmmm-hmmm? And how many customers do you have? Ten million? Perhaps the 80,000 which is estimated as the number of current 1Ks?

I think you're vastly overestimating your own importance here, dude. Take a chill pill.

Echoing what many others have said, I had several e-mails, surveys, and various bonus points offers from Marriott within a month of my business dropping off from five or so weeknights a month at the same property (for a year and a half or so) to zero nights anywhere. This was not a case of poor service or anything. It was just a temporary lack of travel as a result of me changing jobs and the new employer not sending me anywhere for a little while. But you'd better believe that Marriott HQ noticed, and I'm certain I was far from the biggest fish in their pond.

I've noted a decline in both service (checking baggage at the understaffed 1K counter at SFO especially) and my upgrade success. But even the diluted 1K and MM benefits are significant enough to the family and I to make it difficult to contemplate jumping ship, with the routes we fly and our redemption patterns. Trying to redeem SkyPesos at anything other than the top-tier rate would drive me absolutely nuts. AA has generally been fine for me in the past, but the few times I've been unfortunate enough to fly American Eagle, it's been nothing short of an absolute nightmare and some of the worst customer service I've experienced from any company. Our most frequent routes as a family take us to Eagle-only cities, so that's not a great option. Despite many tales to the contrary from others, US has been generally good to us in flight, but the lack of E+ is a big drawback. Plus, redemption is a real problem with them, unless you always want to pay the "standard" rate for awards. B6, VX, and AS don't fly to a lot of places we want to go.

So now it's more a matter of choosing the least undesirable option, rather than before, when (even as a 1P in the early 2000s and a 1K from 2006 on) the perks and appreciation seemed more substantial and I was choosing the most desirable option. I'm sure there are others in a similar situation, and someone has figured out just how much UA can cost cut and take away before we'll jump ship.

I think this ultimately boils down to a pretty simple situation where UA management (lead by SMI/J and with endorsement from the BOD) is simply in the process of reinventing the new airline. And as has been pretty clearly stated (and supported by a lot of real-life evidence), UA is trying to 'break' alot of long-term customers of past habits, expectations, etc. Inevitably, some customers will be displaced/disenfranchised/lost in this process (some bigger and more profitable than others)...but clearly UA management believes that they can 'navigate the narrows' and come out strongly on the other side. On the 'other side', past practices and expectations from the old UAL are largely gone (at least the ones that don't tangibly add to the bottom line), and the 'old base' is slowly replaced by more and more new customers who just go with the flow and accept the new reality. It's a process--and a tough one for many of us--but it's pretty clear that UA management is simply executing on a gameplan with a number of highly calculated risks and rewards to all of their various strategies. One day, we'll think nothing of having to pay for seat selection at time of booking, always having to support an upgrade with some sort of instrument/payment, etc., etc. It's only difficult because the old reality is still so close...

Posters such as 1KPath have had coupons and upgrades and other offers tossed his way after moving his and his organization's business away from UA, but it's not enough. UA can't successfully lure lost passengers back until their schedule is reliable again.


Yup, just this week our beleaguered UA sales rep made us some offers that I would never have expected to see(very large % off and guaranteed UGs)...we declined because it is all about the reliability!

I agree with most of the points raised, but have some additional thoughts.

UA operational metrics are horrible. I would not advocate luring customers back onto the airline until they make reasonable progress in on-time performance. Why beg people to fly your airline when you are just going to cancel the flight or strand them somewhere? (exaggerating somewhat, but proving a point)

I would also add most of the SHARES nonsense into this as well...seating assignments, lost segments, ticket (non)synching, mileage posting. etc. The entire customer experience is sorely lacking.

And I agree, communication is really needed now. I recall one email several months ago, which was mostly a passive "sorry you are inconvenienced" message, directly from UA. Other than that, just spam about weekly (non)specials.

Even on FT, UA Insider started a whole thread about "post your integration issues"....but has not updated the issue list since March 31....:confused:

When...or if...they get ops back under control, then would be the time for sales promotions.

By the way, the financials are going to get worse. A portion of air travel is purchased in advance. There is a lag time between ticking off customers and seeing the impact.

Wow, 18 posts before someone really "got it". I'm not sure about PMCO, but there were occasional posts in the PMUA board on why UA never contacted elites that left. Seems they have a long history of not doing so.

That being said, the better point is above. The airline is currently an operational disaster. Spending lots of time and effort woo elites back? Why? Into what? A travel experience that's only going to alienate them more. It makes no sense.

UA should be fixing the operational issues that they're dealing with, get the customer experience back to where it needs to be, THEN start bringing the elites back into the fold.

Others have used AA as an example of actively recruiting elites, and it makes good sense for them to do so. Even during the current bankruptcy, they are still operating with a consistent level of service. I'm sure someone will try to point specific issues of failure, and those issues exist, but on the whole they're operating as business as usual and delivering flights saftely and at an acceptable on-time rate. For them, it makes sense. For UA, not yet.

I agree with the OP that it is a short-sighted business policy.

I'm not at all shocked by it. And I don't think it is due to stupidity . . . it was a calculated business decision.

UA FFs might not think that UA's course as far as treatment of elites is the right one, but someone in a board room at UA made a case otherwise using metrics we might not see as obvious. Example: Offering inexpensive, last minute upgrades to non-elites makes you some money right now, but loses you more in the long run . . . it is possible that the CEO is really, really okay with that.


I mostly agree with this analysis.

I think that what we are seeing is a calculated, carefully-thought-out strategy, not stupidity or incompetence. UA is cutting costs to the bone, and monetizing everything. One can argue whether this is the correct strategy---I think they have gone too far now that they can no longer find pilots to fly their planes! But I do think that the powers at UA looked long and hard at the US airline industry and concluded that competing on product and service has never proven to be a good strategy. In this day and age, most people (especially high rev people) choose an airline based upon price and convenience. Some people might also consider the FF program. Customer service does not usually factor in. So, UA has gone all-in on their strategy of monetization and cost-cutting. Anything else is now unimportant.

I might think this is the wrong way to go, and I am not thrilled with UA. But they are not stupid. Time will tell if they were right.

Echoing what many others have said, I had several e-mails, surveys, and various bonus points offers from Marriott within a month of my business dropping off from five or so weeknights a month at the same property (for a year and a half or so) to zero nights anywhere. This was not a case of poor service or anything. It was just a temporary lack of travel as a result of me changing jobs and the new employer not sending me anywhere for a little while. But you'd better believe that Marriott HQ noticed, and I'm certain I was far from the biggest fish in their pond.

I've noted a decline in both service (checking baggage at the understaffed 1K counter at SFO especially) and my upgrade success. But even the diluted 1K and MM benefits are significant enough to the family and I to make it difficult to contemplate jumping ship, with the routes we fly and our redemption patterns. Trying to redeem SkyPesos at anything other than the top-tier rate would drive me absolutely nuts. AA has generally been fine for me in the past, but the few times I've been unfortunate enough to fly American Eagle, it's been nothing short of an absolute nightmare and some of the worst customer service I've experienced from any company. Our most frequent routes as a family take us to Eagle-only cities, so that's not a great option. Despite many tales to the contrary from others, US has been generally good to us in flight, but the lack of E+ is a big drawback. Plus, redemption is a real problem with them, unless you always want to pay the "standard" rate for awards. B6, VX, and AS don't fly to a lot of places we want to go.

So now it's more a matter of choosing the least undesirable option, rather than before, when (even as a 1P in the early 2000s and a 1K from 2006 on) the perks and appreciation seemed more substantial and I was choosing the most desirable option. I'm sure there are others in a similar situation, and someone has figured out just how much UA can cost cut and take away before we'll jump ship.

personally I have shifted my biz between Hotel,Car and Airlines and Never recieved a call from any of them and I held top or near top status with them before walking. Do I feel bad they didnt chase after me not at all, actually happy they didnt bother me!

It might have to do with Spend which by me is the bare minium, so I do hold and have held Top level status yet if I was any of these companys Id be very happy that someone like me has left and became my competitions problem now.

I could spend $150 for a 4 day weekend car with Hertz or the $51 I did with Fox. I could have spent $259 for a Hotel room for the night or the $71 I did for the Hilton, alittle further away but well worth it

Most programs track your Spend even COdbaUA does otherwsie how can anyone be a GS. I guess just like any casino they have their Red Line under it You might feel you are a VIP but they dont

I think this ultimately boils down to a pretty simple situation where UA management (lead by SMI/J and with endorsement from the BOD) is simply in the process of reinventing the new airline. And as has been pretty clearly stated (and supported by a lot of real-life evidence), UA is trying to 'break' alot of long-term customers of past habits, expectations, etc. Inevitably, some customers will be displaced/disenfranchised/lost in this process (some bigger and more profitable than others)...but clearly UA management believes that they can 'navigate the narrows' and come out strongly on the other side. On the 'other side', past practices and expectations from the old UAL are largely gone (at least the ones that don't tangibly add to the bottom line), and the 'old base' is slowly replaced by more and more new customers who just go with the flow and accept the new reality. It's a process--and a tough one for many of us--but it's pretty clear that UA management is simply executing on a gameplan with a number of highly calculated risks and rewards to all of their various strategies. One day, we'll think nothing of having to pay for seat selection at time of booking, always having to support an upgrade with some sort of instrument/payment, etc., etc. It's only difficult because the old reality is still so close...

+1 -- Well stated.

I mostly agree with this analysis.

I think that what we are seeing is a calculated, carefully-thought-out strategy, not stupidity or incompetence. UA is cutting costs to the bone, and monetizing everything.
So, UA has gone all-in on their strategy of monetization and cost-cutting. Anything else is now unimportant.

I might think this is the wrong way to go, and I am not thrilled with UA. But they are not stupid. Time will tell if they were right.

And of course I agree with this statement as well. "Cutting cost to the bone and monetizing everything" IS a business strategy that is OFTEN employed. Yes, it hurts the customer in general, but the CEO, really, he postures but only the truly, truly great ones actually cares about individuals (either employees or customers). It is often, very often more convenient and easy not to care at that level. You focus on business (money) objectives that either gets you paid or gain you fame in your industry.

That's management, maybe not leadership, but the CEO also has to answer to investors, and investors are oftentimes as short sighted, chasing the short term, as UA's business direction with elites seems to be.

Only time will tell if they are right. Yup . . . sums it up perfectly.

Going through a Ch. 11 process is trivial compared with going through a large merger.

I'm sure AA would clearly describe what they're going through at the moment, dealing with the unions and US' semi-hostile end-around, as "trivial":rolleyes:

Oh, and I believe UA's had at least a year head start on AA, right?

Yup, just this week our beleaguered UA sales rep made us some offers that I would never have expected to see(very large % off and guaranteed UGs)...we declined because it is all about the reliability!

What was the guaranteed UG offer they made?

UA FFs might not think that UA's course as far as treatment of elites is the right one, but someone in a board room at UA made a case otherwise using metrics we might not see as obvious. Example: Offering inexpensive, last minute upgrades to non-elites makes you some money right now, but loses you more in the long run . . . it is possible that the CEO is really, really okay with that.


They don't think they will lose any money in the long run. They think that top-tier elites will never leave. They don't get that most 1Ks that travel domestically from SFO-ORD or JFK every week don't give a darn about the fact that you can fly a 787 IAH-ALK. Most 1Ks care more about getting where they are ACTUALLY going on-time and with as little hassle as possible. And we'll shop around to meet those needs. No one in management believes this is possible though. They think we're captive and take whatever thin gruel UA offers us.

Time will tell...

I'm sure AA would clearly describe what they're going through at the moment, dealing with the unions and US' semi-hostile end-around, as "trivial":rolleyes:

Oh, and I believe UA's had at least a year head start on AA, right?

"trivial" is relative, as my post noted. You're just misinterpreting what I wrote (again).

I can repeat it if you like - based on vast experience in this area I am confident that my post is accurate. Do you disagree?

I think this ultimately boils down to a pretty simple situation where UA management (lead by SMI/J and with endorsement from the BOD) is simply in the process of reinventing the new airline. And as has been pretty clearly stated (and supported by a lot of real-life evidence), UA is trying to 'break' alot of long-term customers of past habits, expectations, etc. Inevitably, some customers will be displaced/disenfranchised/lost in this process (some bigger and more profitable than others)...but clearly UA management believes that they can 'navigate the narrows' and come out strongly on the other side. On the 'other side', past practices and expectations from the old UAL are largely gone (at least the ones that don't tangibly add to the bottom line), and the 'old base' is slowly replaced by more and more new customers who just go with the flow and accept the new reality. It's a process--and a tough one for many of us--but it's pretty clear that UA management is simply executing on a gameplan with a number of highly calculated risks and rewards to all of their various strategies. One day, we'll think nothing of having to pay for seat selection at time of booking, always having to support an upgrade with some sort of instrument/payment, etc., etc. It's only difficult because the old reality is still so close...

Once upon a time there were no loyalty programs and our choices were either Economy or First. That was about it and we just paid it because that is all there was to choose from. The airlines change these things in cycles and we consumers are forced to go along as the changes start taking hold. Who would have thought they could ever get away with charging for half the things they do now? I sure didn't.

I've seen this movie before in the form of the NWA/DL merger, and it looks a lot like this:

I think this ultimately boils down to a pretty simple situation where UA management (lead by SMI/J and with endorsement from the BOD) is simply in the process of reinventing the new airline. And as has been pretty clearly stated (and supported by a lot of real-life evidence), UA is trying to 'break' alot of long-term customers of past habits, expectations, etc. Inevitably, some customers will be displaced/disenfranchised/lost in this process (some bigger and more profitable than others)...but clearly UA management believes that they can 'navigate the narrows' and come out strongly on the other side. On the 'other side', past practices and expectations from the old UAL are largely gone (at least the ones that don't tangibly add to the bottom line), and the 'old base' is slowly replaced by more and more new customers who just go with the flow and accept the new reality. It's a process--and a tough one for many of us--but it's pretty clear that UA management is simply executing on a gameplan with a number of highly calculated risks and rewards to all of their various strategies. One day, we'll think nothing of having to pay for seat selection at time of booking, always having to support an upgrade with some sort of instrument/payment, etc., etc. It's only difficult because the old reality is still so close...

Did it work? I think present-day DL is all in all a pretty good airline. SkyPesos and international upgrade policies both can use a lift, but otherwise they do a nice job of getting people from A to B. Directly post-merger DL was a mess. NWA flyers (myself included) were livid with the changes. Some bolted for the exits (remember, they may be behind you), others stuck around to see what the end product was. Same will hold true here.

Once upon a time there were no loyalty programs and our choices were either Economy or First. That was about it and we just paid it because that is all there was to choose from.

Because during those days, the skies were regulated. Every airline charged the same price, and they competed on service over the routes the CAB authorized them to fly.

In 1978 routes were deregulated and in 1979 fares were deregulated. By 1981 every airline worth its salt had founded a FF program while they expanded routes, built hubs, and discovered at what level they could sustain fares.

The airlines change these things in cycles and we consumers are forced to go along as the changes start taking hold.

Unless you believe that the skies will be regulated once again, there is no "cycle". We've had this state of affairs for over 30 years now, and it's not going back.

All that's happening now is that a few airlines are beginning to come to terms with how to monetize a First cabin where rarely more than 15% of seats are actually paid for with F-class fares, while they move towards a FF model that values higher-dollar tickets.

UA operational metrics are horrible. I would not advocate luring customers back onto the airline until they make reasonable progress in on-time performance. Why beg people to fly your airline when you are just going to cancel the flight or strand them somewhere? (exaggerating somewhat, but proving a point)

Sure, but do you really think it will be so easy to get back elites who have fled to AA and started building up status and miles there? Simply fixing ops won't get them back, especially given the loss of goodwill over the last few months has just been staggering. Surely no one expects that a customer service approach involves driving away core customers by showing lack of care and ignoring their complaints, no matter the reason?

"trivial" is relative, as my post noted. You're just misinterpreting what I wrote (again).

I can repeat it if you like - based on vast experience in this area I am confident that my post is accurate. Do you disagree?

If BK and merger proceedings had started simultaneously, I would agree with your theorem. However, UA has an 18 month head start on AA. Thus, I would not agree on their relative trivialness factoring in time.

To each their own however.

Going through a Ch. 11 process is trivial compared with going through a large merger.

That's like saying an F1 tornado is trivial compared to an F3. What's the difference if the house has fallen down around you in either case?

The most likely reason that we're not seeing a nimble, quick-acting response to changing customer travel profiles is that they just finished a rather substantial merger and are still focusing on the operational metrics. Once you get that right you can focus on more nebulous things like this.

Sorry, that doesn't pass the common sense test. It's like saying they're waiting for the building to finish burning down before they go in and salvage the furniture. If they're so focused on the operational metrics why is every indication still getting worse?

The HouCrew are just incompetent at running an airline. It is a real question if anyone will be able to salvage the wreck once they are finally ousted.

All the talk about business decisions and navigating tough waters is more lawyers and accountants thinking they know what it takes to run a company. If you don't value and inspire your people to perform, and don't value the customer, there is no business plan any MBA can come up with to make it a success.