EL AL Matmid - Florida woman sues El Al over gender segregation

In today's edition of Haaretz:

Florida woman sues El Al over gender segregation, reports say (http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/florida-woman-sues-el-al-over-gender-segregation-reports-say-1.457911)
Woman says she was forced to change seats to accommodate an ultra-Orthodox man; El Al: Flight attendants are at the service of passengers.

A Florida woman reportedly is suing El Al for gender discrimination after she was forced to change seats to accommodate an ultra-Orthodox man.

Debra Ryder charged that a flight steward moved her to a seat in the back without her prior consent, Israeli media reported. The ultra-Orthodox man had refused to sit next to her and then moved into her aisle seat.

Ryder reportedly filed a lawsuit on Aug. 9 seeking some $12,500 in compensation, including for distress. She had obtained an aisle seat for medical reasons, she told Army Radio.

Ryder's attorney, Orly Erez-Likhovsky of the Israel Religious Action Center, also has sent a letter to El Al demanding that it set and distribute specific instructions to employees on how to act when confronted with such cases, Globes reported.

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I think it's a relevant topic for this board.

I think it's a relevant topic for this board.

Absolutely. As long as we stay on topic as it relates to El Al, this flight, and airline policy. OMNI PR would be for a discussion about gender rights and religous traditions and practices, etc.

<facepalm>

Assuming the situation is as the woman claims, this is just absolutely unacceptable. Oy. If this happened, El Al really needs to explain itself and make sure this kind of thing never occurs again.

That being said, the $12,500 claim for damages does strike me as a bit excessive. I would certainly support the woman receiving a full refund for her ticket and some extra compensation thrown in for good measure, but when people start asking for damages for "distress" I tend to get suspicious.... call me a cynic.

Absolutely. As long as we stay on topic as it relates to El Al, this flight, and airline policy. OMNI PR would be for a discussion about gender rights and religous traditions and practices, etc.

Yes. I don't see any need to comment on either party's beliefs as far as what is or is not appropriate for them personally, but as far as it related to the behavior of airline staff, it's relevant.

If you set aside the personal angle and ot delve into one side being right or wrong (because that is all relative, of course), I think this topic is quite parallel to situations on other airlines that are discussed frequently on FT airline boards. (Just to name a few consistency of airline policy and/or flight crew response: airline removes mom and unruly child; airline does or does not reseat passenger due to POS taking half their seat; forcible/coerced seat reassignment of pax by FA because FA doesn't want to bother getting involved with the seat poacher, etc.)

I didn't read the article and doubt it would cover/answer these questions.
What class was the womens ticket? What class was the mans?
Who had higher status? Who paid more for their seat?

I can see asking for $12k easy. IF she paid full refundable price for a 1st class tix call it $5k then double it, thats $10k and $2k for 'distress isn't bad.

With out know more I agree El Al could have handled it better.

She has to cover her legal fees as well, so the amount seems fine. I also find this thread right at home here on this forum.

But do you guys understand WHY the hareidi men refused to move? And WHY the f/a's "didn't do anything about it"

But do you guys understand WHY the hareidi men refused to move? And WHY the f/a's "didn't do anything about it"

No, Please educate us as to why the hareidi men refused to move when they were in a public space.

I'd love to hear some details, actually.

Unless it is something along the lines of the guy was wheelchair bound and needed some seat swapping to ensure that his personal care assistant was seated next to him or something similar, then I do believe that El Al is going to have a hell of a time defending itself.

I'd love to hear some details, actually.

Unless it is something along the lines of the guy was wheelchair bound and needed some seat swapping to ensure that his personal care assistant was seated next to him or something similar, then I do believe that El Al is going to have a hell of a time defending itself.

That does not appear to be the case.

Israel National News (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/158749#.UCP48ERsT0g):
According to the woman, the Hareidi man had been seated in a center seat, next to a female passenger. Before she got on the plane, the man apparently decided to take her seat, which was more amenable to his needs, as his seatmate was another Hareidi male. When she got on the plane, the woman's attorney told Army Radio. she asked that the man vacate the spot and allow her to sit, but he refused – and he also refused to move when asked to do so by the plane's staff. Instead, a member of the crew asked her to take the man's seat; otherwise they would be unable to take off.

The woman, having no choice, complied, her attorney said, but suffered. The attorney said that the woman had chosen the seat specifically, as it was an aisle seat, giving her easy access to restrooms so she could take medications. In addition, the attorney said, the seat mixup caused her to miss out on getting a vegetarian meal she had ordered.

I would have to clarify how coerced the women really was. I don't begrudge the FA for asking the women if she wouldn't mind to switch places. Remember the FA has to take care of the requests of the 'hareidi' as well. Even if he isn't correct. I suspect the women agreed to take the middle seat, and post facto realised that shouldn't have given in so easily. The article is somewhat vague about it. I don't believe any FA would threaten as claimed.

Have seen this situation many times, and it's always resolved by the FA kindly asking a passenger if they would agree to change seats, something seems odd here.

Not this topic again :td::td::td::(
We dont have all the facts - so lets not all jump to conclusions.

I've seen many airlines make accommodations for family, illness, couples, group trips whatever...it happens. im sure sometimes the reasons are ligit, sometimes not. I dont think El AL is the exception.

At the end of the day, I think everyone can agree that the airline should ensure proper training and educating of their staff on how to deal with the issue with sensitivity for all parties , ensure customers and travel agents book seats appropriately ahead of time, that passengers who are asked to accommodate are done so respectfully.

It's really difficult to say anything based upon a newspaper article. However, I did find some additional information about this event from Globes, the Jerusalem Post, and the article quoted by TWA884 from Israel National News.

It appears that the hareidi man had boarded the airplane before Ms Ryder and was already sitting in her seat when she boarded the plane. Both were apparently economy passengers.

Both Ryder and the FA attempted to tell the hareidi man to move to his own seat, but when he refused, the FA told Ryder to move to the man's middle seat so that the plane could leave on time.

Ryder complied, but sitting in the middle seat meant that it was more difficult for her to take her medication, and the seat switch meant that she never got her vegetarian meal.

My personal impression of this story is that the flight attendant simply reseated Ryder to avoid any delay. There is nothing in any article which indicated that the El Al FA was guilty of "gender discrimination." A flight attendant preparing an airplane for take-off is usually rushing to complete all tasks, and in similar situations FAs will often reseat passengers of both genders just to "get the job done."

Flight attendants do have the right to re-seat passengers if they see the need to do so. The fact that you have a boarding pass with "seat 23C" written on it does not mean that you have a juridical right to sit in seat 23C. Sitting in a specific seat on the airplane is not a human right.

The woman and her attorney claim that she needed an aisle seat for medical reasons. However, that "medical reason" was obviously that she had to get up and take medication during the flight, and doing this from a middle seat would be easier than being forced to bother your seat-mate to get into the aisle. Personally, I don't agree that this is a valid "medical reason" to get an aisle seat.

There are lots of questions which need to be answered before any judge can decide whether this woman is entitled to compensation, such as:

1. It appears that Ryder was one of the last people to board the airplane. Was that the result of her own negligence, or the result of El Al boarding procedures?

2. Did the new seat cause her any real medical problems?

3. Why didn't she get her vegetarian meal? Did she even ask the crew to bring her the special meal?

Bottom line: She apparently got what she had paid for as she was still seated in the economy section of the plane she had a ticket for. While being moved from your assigned seat is unpleasant, the airline still has a right to do that. However, the airline will lose out in goodwill and bad PR, so it may be in the airline's best interest to give her an upgrade voucher or lounge voucher to keep the passenger happy. But NIS 50,000 is far over the top.

RedChilli, if those are the circumstances, then yeah, I agree that this woman is going way overboard and claiming discrimination where it didn't exist. Unacceptable. :(

What is the bit about her having to "move back" that was written in other articles?

I don't even understand how if she shifted over by ONE seat (from aisle to middle) that she missed out on her meal. I've had plenty of seat swap situations before, and it is not hard to say "oh, the guy with the _____ meal moved and is now in 24F" and the meal finds its way to the right place. The meal story of hers is weak at best. If she was one seat off her original seat and the FA came over with the vegetarian meal, how hard is it to say "oh that's mine"?

What is the bit about her having to "move back" that was written in other articles?

I don't even understand how if she shifted over by ONE seat (from aisle to middle) that she missed out on her meal. I've had plenty of seat swap situations before, and it is not hard to say "oh, the guy with the _____ meal moved and is now in 24F" and the meal finds its way to the right place. The meal story of hers is weak at best. If she was one seat off her original seat and the FA came over with the vegetarian meal, how hard is it to say "oh that's mine"?

I've seen other posters comment about this "moving over one seat", but there's nothing in any of the accounts I've seen to indicate that. What I did read was that the man moved from his seat because he was sitting next to a woman, and that he took an unoccupied seat next to another man. Seems clear to me that it was in a different row. Quite possibly some number of rows apart. It appears (to me) that he looked forward from his assigned seat, saw one somewhere in front of him, and just moved.

And I'm quite sure that anyone that was rude enough to do that wouldn't be bothered to tell the FA where the rightful recipient of the vegetarian meal was actually sitting.

But do you guys understand WHY the hareidi men refused to move? And WHY the f/a's "didn't do anything about it"

No, Please educate us as to why the hareidi men refused to move when they were in a public space.

To put it simply there is a law in "Halakha" which is Jewish law called
"Shomer negiah" which loosely translates to "guard against touching" essentially a man or woman may only have physical contact with the opposite sex if they are a family member or spouse, this is meant at a safety net to prevent adulterous relationships.
The reason the men did not move is most likely because of that.

It may have also been due to the fact that the woman was not dressed according to the Jewish law of "Tzniut" which dictates that a woman should be dressed modestly so as not to draw unneeded sexual attention to herself.


In other words, this is a very complicated and sensitive cultural as well as religious issue which is why I feel it doesn't really have a place on flyertalk.

Just saw rafi's post, above. Guess I was wrong. Rafi, can you explain why the woman had to be moved and not the men?

And I'm quite sure that anyone that was rude enough to do that wouldn't be bothered to tell the FA where the rightful recipient of the vegetarian meal was actually sitting.

Have you ever met this man? If not, how do you know that he's rude?

Now, the problem with this case is that the newspapers give us too few facts. "Facts, facts, facts!" as Inspector Clouseau used to say.

Let's just for a while assume that the following scenario is what actually happened: Since the man moved forward, possibly several rows, it appears that boarding was more or less completed. (It's hard to move forward in an airplane aisle when other passengers move backward to find their seats.) So, not being happy with his seat-mate, he decided to look for a free seat. And he did find a seat which apparently was empty. Was he rude when he sat down in that seat?

And even if you're right and he was "too rude" to inform the FA where the vegetarian was seated, the question still remains why she couldn't have spoken to them when the meals were handed out. Press the button, wait for a FA, and tell him/her: "I have ordered a vegetarian meal, and I was supposed to sit in seat 20D, but was re-seated by another FA. Could you bring me my meal, please?"

Rafi, can you explain why the woman had to be moved and not the men?

Hey, I'm not condoning or defending their behavior, you'r right, why couldn't the men be moved?
That I can't answer.

Let's just for a while assume that the following scenario is what actually happened: Since the man moved forward, possibly several rows, it appears that boarding was more or less completed. (It's hard to move forward in an airplane aisle when other passengers move backward to find their seats.) So, not being happy with his seat-mate, he decided to look for a free seat. And he did find a seat which apparently was empty. Was he rude when he sat down in that seat?

Yes. It wasn't his seat, and boarding was not complete, so he should not have assumed the seat wasn't going to be occupied. And he didn't move when the person assigned to that seat got there. Very rude.

To put it simply there is a law in "Halakha" which is Jewish law called
"Shomer negiah" which loosely translates to "guard against touching" essentially a man or woman may only have physical contact with the opposite sex if they are a family member or spouse, this is meant at a safety net to prevent adulterous relationships.
The reason the men did not move is most likely because of that.

It may have also been due to the fact that the woman was not dressed according to the Jewish law of "Tzniut" which dictates that a woman should be dressed modestly so as not to draw unneeded sexual attention to herself.


In other words, this is a very complicated and sensitive cultural as well as religious issue which is why I feel it doesn't really have a place on flyertalk.
I am not questioning the complicated cultural and religious issue. I am questioning why you think it was the obligation of the woman to move. They were in a public space.
I will be flying El Al with my wife in the near future. She always dresses modestly with concern for the cultural and religous sensitivites of o ur destination, whether it be a Catholic church, a Moslem mosque or an Orthodox Shul (actually how she dresses is not relevent since we are dealing with a public as opposed to religious or private space). I would be very upset if anybody for any reason refused to allow her to sit in her assigned seat because it offended his cultural or religious sensitivities.
In the current situation the gentleman should have explained his feelings (I am sure any El Al flight attendent would have immediately understood the situation) and asked to be moved to a non threatening seat.

I am questioning why you think it was the obligation of the woman to move.

I don't think it was her obligation to forfeit her assigned seat, I simply think that in this situation where the man had already taken her seat and she was among the last to board it would have been a waste of time to have a d*ck measuring contest and see who would give in to who.
In the end she got a seat in economy like she paid for, got to her destination and arrived in one piece safe and sound, what she's complaining about here is that she should have protested more when this was unfolding.

Is this really the same FT I'm familiar with??? Pretty much every single time a seat poacher story comes up, the offender is regularly lambasted. This time should be no different.

The religion thing is a red herring - he could have arranged for a like-for-like trade of his middle seat for a different middle seat between two men.

Instead, this guy helped himself to a self-upgrade, then defied not only the rightful owner of the seat, but also the airline employees. He should have been booted right then and there for disregarding the FA's instructions.


The lawsuit is a bit much, but I hate to see bad behavior being rewarded, as it was in this case.

Ultimately it was the man who took her seat who had the problem with his seating. He is rude because he should have worked it through the crew, not just plop down somewhere. El Al deals with this all the time, knows how to do it, and asks for volunteers to switch from like seats (usually giving the volunteer a better spot, actually)

Ultimately, though, no one is required to move. El Al, like it or not, is public transport, and you must come into contact with other members of the public. If no one wants to switch seats, then the person in question can get off the plane or deal with it. It seems they do just fine with a female handing them their coffee, but sitting next to one? Whoa, no!

If this proves to difficult for people, they should opt for a private jet so they will not need to risk seeing a woman. Or book the whole row in Y. Or stay at home. Or lighten up (going to get in trouble for that one, I know it...)

I had a somewhat similar situation a while back

I was seated in an aisle exit row seat, a women was in the middle and a charedi man in the window seat.

I must add that I am modern orthodox religious

The charedi gentlemen asked me if i would switch with the women, to which I politely answered NO for 3 reasons;

1. I specifically want an aisle seat
2. I do not want a middle seat
3. My sin if I sit next to the women, if any, is no more serious or less serious then his would be

Needless to say for the next 12 hours he sat next to the women and the world did not come to an end

Moral of the story: Just stand up for your rights and all should be well

Folks,

There is no reason why this topic cannot be discussed in a civil manner. Discuss the facts of this case and everything will be fine. It would be helpful for people to read the linked articles in order to be able to discuss this specific case

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I had a somewhat similar situation a while back

I was seated in an aisle exit row seat, a women was in the middle and a charedi man in the window seat.

I must add that I am modern orthodox religious

The charedi gentlemen asked me if i would switch with the women, to which I politely answered NO for 3 reasons;

1. I specifically want an aisle seat
2. I do not want a middle seat
3. My sin if I sit next to the women, if any, is no more serious or less serious then his would be

Needless to say for the next 12 hours he sat next to the women and the world did not come to an end

Moral of the story: Just stand up for your rights and all should be well

This is the winning response. Thank you.

I am a modern Orthodox women. I have, back in my economy days, on occasion been asked to switch seats. Each time, not liking the seat offered I have refused. There has usually been someone else who was willing to change. I think those who will not sit next to a member of the opposite sex need to reserve early and make sure they avoid middle seats. This way, the seat they try to get out of--is more attractive. I also wonder--what happens on airlines other than El Al. Do the Hareidi just deal with it? Is the chutzpah level raised because it IS El Al?

I am a modern Orthodox women. I have, back in my economy days, on occasion been asked to switch seats. Each time, not liking the seat offered I have refused. There has usually been someone else who was willing to change. I think those who will not sit next to a member of the opposite sex need to reserve early and make sure they avoid middle seats. This way, the seat they try to get out of--is more attractive. I also wonder--what happens on airlines other than El Al. Do the Hareidi just deal with it? Is the chutzpah level raised because it IS El Al?

I do think there is a lot of truth to this (the bold). I am not judging it right or wrong, but I do think on a philosophical level that some folks expect more "understanding" (although yes, there is a debate to be had whether that "understanding" for one person is actually negative toward another) because it's the "Jewish" airline.

I am chareidi, but maybe look a little 'modern' (who knows ...?). I was once asked (by someone wearing what might be described as 'more exotic clothing than mine') to move so he would not have to sit next to a woman. In reply, I asked him if it was permitted for me to sit next to a woman ...

Just curious - why do we generally hear of men asking to switch so as not to sit next to a woman, but rarely, if ever, hear of a woman asking to switch so as not to sit next to a man?

I am a modern Orthodox women. I have, back in my economy days, on occasion been asked to switch seats. Each time, not liking the seat offered I have refused. There has usually been someone else who was willing to change. I think those who will not sit next to a member of the opposite sex need to reserve early and make sure they avoid middle seats. This way, the seat they try to get out of--is more attractive. I also wonder--what happens on airlines other than El Al. Do the Hareidi just deal with it? Is the chutzpah level raised because it IS El Al?

Indeed they should reserve earlier. Or, better yet - they should purchase a second seat and in that way, ensure that there won't be a woman next to them.

Regarding other airlines - I once heard the following announcement on UA: "As a reminder, you must sit in the seat on your boarding pass. You may switch ONLY if the person you are switching with agrees. This is not EL AL. You may not force others to switch with you."

I am chareidi, but maybe look a little 'modern' (who knows ...?). I was once asked (by someone wearing what might be described as 'more exotic clothing than mine') to move so he would not have to sit next to a woman. In reply, I asked him if it was permitted for me to sit next to a woman ...

Excellent response! I asked something similar on a bus once - not in a mean way. More out of curiosity - if it's forbidden for him to sit next to a woman, why is it OK for him to have me sin in his place. He laughed and ended up standing. He said was "it's not a sin; I just don't want to tempt myself."

Just curious - why do we generally hear of men asking to switch so as not to sit next to a woman, but rarely, if ever, hear of a woman asking to switch so as not to sit next to a man?


This has to do with modesty rules for men and women in Judaism, as well as the slightly different upbringing (men tend to be more "strict" as they have more "mitzva"s on their hands).

Modesty example: A woman can look at men other than her spouse, while a man should not.

Modesty example2: A man cannot hear an adult woman singing, while a woman can hear an adult man singing.

Modesty example3: A man cannot watch a woman dancer, ...

An orthodox friend of mine mentioned to me once that whenever they are invited to an occasion that may contain immodest situations, his wife goes as the representative of the family.

As for "ngia'a" (which both sexes need to keep) - it appears that women are 1. less assertive in asking favours from outside the community (a good wife should not be speaking with others), 2. somehow more resilient, and won't have impure thoughts (unlike men), 3. women are less likely to be distracted from learning the Halacha (as they don't).

Just curious - why do we generally hear of men asking to switch so as not to sit next to a woman, but rarely, if ever, hear of a woman asking to switch so as not to sit next to a man?."
It happens..I was asked one time to move to a middle seat because it was it was a guy.. woman and then me on the aisle and she was in the middle which some women are sensitive to being seated inbetween 2 men.
I did not at all feel like she was trying to snowball me out of her middle seat to an aisle. I dont expect that all flyers are on FT or have status or are reading seat maps etc. I think the agents that book tickets should be booking seats for members of certain communities more appropriately, and that the airline should be publishing information as to how to handle these situations via website/ads/etc.

I am chareidi, but maybe look a little 'modern' (who knows ...?). I was once asked (by someone wearing what might be described as 'more exotic clothing than mine') to move so he would not have to sit next to a woman. In reply, I asked him if it was permitted for me to sit next to a woman ...
That would be a valid statement if there was uniformity in terms of religious practice across the religious spectrum, which there is not (and you probably know that).
From what I see, there are alot of people who practice certain laws and others choose not to. Some people feel some laws are outdated, and some do not. So yes, some folks are sensitive to certain things. I dont think they were suggesting you "sin"..in place of him,...it could be that you just dont care or just dont follow that law, while he wants to.
The issue isnt religious beliefs...its whether she was discriminated against.

That would be a valid statement if there was uniformity in terms of religious practice across the religious spectrum, which there is not (and you probably know that).
From what I see, there are alot of people who practice certain laws and others choose not to. Some people feel some laws are outdated, and some do not. So yes, some folks are sensitive to certain things. I dont think they were suggesting you "sin"..in place of him,...it could be that you just dont care or just dont follow that law, while he wants to.
Yes, but according to the man who asked mikebg to move, the law applies to everyone. Whether mikebg feels uncomfortable sitting next to a woman or not, this seems like a case of 'lifnei iver' ;)

Until El-Al grows a spine and has its FAs discourage this behavior instead of semi-passively encouraging it, people just need to stand their ground, even when the FA is threatening that the flight will be delayed.

IMO, there's no reason someone can't switch seats, if the person they're switching with has no problem.
If someone does indeed have a problem switching, then it should be illegal for the FA to do anything other than tell the passenger to stop whining about his seat.

Yes, but according to the man who asked mikebg to move, the law applies to everyone. Whether mikebg feels uncomfortable sitting next to a woman or not, this seems like a case of 'lifnei iver' ;)

That is, indeed, precisely the point I was trying to make! I think the guy got the message as well.

The airline should have refused service to the male passenger. His failure to comply with the simplist of crew instructions about where to sit - either in the originally asigned seat or in an alternative one offered him by the flight crew - could well have been a foreshadowing of other unruly behavior while in flight. If there were no seats available which would satisify his desires, he could have been given the oppurtunity to have one on the next available flight.

That the flight crew asked the woman to move rather than telling the man to move is clearly wrong and retraining needs to occur.

Shame the passenger isn't named as a co-defendent. He clearly has no manners. Rather than approaching the flight crew and asking to be reseated, he took it upon himself to "steal" a seat.

Any idea of the market involved?

I think the Ultra Orthodox man should have moved and kept the secular person in her seat. If my wishes were not to sit next to a person then I would do so in a discrete way and offer to move.

This female passenger had an aisle seat due to a medical issue and Judaism says that medical issues comes before religion. This Ultra Orthodox man should have accomoidated the female passenger due to her medical issue.

Thank God I'm not Heredi cause it would be hard to fly within the USA. Just imagine if this Ultra Orthodox man was on American Airlines to San Francisco American would not care and would tell the Orthodox Passenger" I'm sorry but we cannot move you due to a full flight and this passenger has a medical issue and needs her seat".

Lets put it this way lets say an Ultra Orthodox man sat next to me and I had a ham sandwich from Subway would he tell me I can't eat it? Or if I decided to watch a Woody Allen Film would he say to turn it off because its offensive? Or if I played Maddonna's Live to Tell and this Ultra Orthodox man heard it what could he do?

Its my right to eat whatever I want to mix meat and milk listen to what I want and sit where I want. This man does not own El AL and is not Israeli Security.

Kol Hakavod for the female passenger filing a lawsuit. El Al needs to wake up and see that secular passengers have rights too. Can El Al tell me I can't fly if I have a Bacon and Egg sandwich from Mc Donalds?

Can someone point me to the Contract of Carriage for El AL that says"An Ultra Orthodox male cannot sit next to a woman whether secular or religious?" , "Bring on a ham and cheese sandwich" "Listen to offensive music", "Watch an offensive movie on their laptop".

I see a major hutzpa here because El AL shows Seinfield and secular movies. This flight attendant has no training in medical issues .

Don't you guys bore yourself?

Don't you guys bore yourself?

We never bore ourselves. Flyertalk is all about debate and I can tell you for every member there is a different opinion.