United MileagePlus (Consolidated) - Sigh: Equip. subs/cancellation for Thanksgiving award travel itin.

Birthday trip SFO-ORD-AMS-ORD-SFO, booked Jan 1st for 11/17-11/20. GPUs all cleared, sitting in favorite seats, quite happy.

Then...

They pull the 3 class 767 on SFO-ORD. Rebooked to next flight only leaving 56 minutes to make the connection. But the real frustration is the lack of lie-flat on the first leg. This is the only thing that made flying UA to Europe via ORD bearable from SFO. I sure hope this is temporary.

On the way back, the AMS-ORD flight is cancelled. So they rebook me AMS-EWR-ORD-SFO. Why not just send me on a tour of all the hubs while they're at it? And ORD-SFO is not on the 3 class 767 either so what's the point when there are seats EWR-SFO.

I need to call as I am not happy. I figure there is not much I can do on the way there (except perhaps book the earlier flight just to make sure) but want to insist on AMS-FRA-SFO on the way home as I don't want to connect in EWR and ORD the day before Thanksgiving and spend hours in domestic first.

Thoughts?

Birthday trip SFO-ORD-AMS-ORD-SFO, booked Jan 1st for 11/17-11/20. GPUs all cleared, sitting in favorite seats, quite happy.

Then...

They pull the 3 class 767 on SFO-ORD. Rebooked to next flight only leaving 56 minutes to make the connection. But the real frustration is the lack of lie-flat on the first leg. This is the only thing that made flying UA to Europe via ORD bearable from SFO. I sure hope this is temporary.

On the way back, the AMS-ORD flight is cancelled. So they rebook me AMS-EWR-ORD-SFO. Why not just send me on a tour of all the hubs while they're at it? And ORD-SFO is not on the 3 class 767 either so what's the point when there are seats EWR-SFO.

I need to call as I am not happy. I figure there is not much I can do on the way there (except perhaps book the earlier flight just to make sure) but want to insist on AMS-FRA-SFO on the way home as I don't want to connect in EWR and ORD the day before Thanksgiving and spend hours in domestic first.

Thoughts?

I would insist they change to a one stop on the way back. On the outbound I would just bite the bullet. 3.5 hours eastbound is not that bad in domestic first.

Keep us posted of your results.

My first thought is that this is lousy.

My second thought is that this is not at all surprising, given what UA is these days.

My third is that if there is any way you can get more time (with the domestic upgrade) for the ORD connection by arriving earlier that would make sense. If you miss that connection, you most likely lose the TATL upgrade.

My final thought is that LA2CDG's thoughts and advice make a lot of sense...

I would insist they change to a one stop on the way back. On the outbound I would just bite the bullet. 3.5 hours eastbound is not that bad in domestic first.

Keep us posted of your results.

Hope it all works out.

For the return, I would ask for them to move you to LH on AMS-FRA, and then UA for FRA-SFO, along with asking for them to keep your SWU intact on the TATL segment.

For the return, I would ask for them to move you to LH on AMS-FRA, and then UA for FRA-SFO, along with asking for them to keep your SWU intact on the TATL segment.

I like the idea.

Also curious if you are aware first-hand if agents have the authority (surely need a supervisor, need one for practically everything these days :rolleyes: )to 'open up' upgrade space if re-routing becomes necessary due to schedule changes? Would the OP be able to request your suggested FRA-SFO and get a 'forced' upgrade seat since their original route had cleared via GPU?

I like the idea.

Also curious if you are aware first-hand if agents have the authority (surely need a supervisor, need one for practically everything these days :rolleyes: )to 'open up' upgrade space if re-routing becomes necessary due to schedule changes? Would the OP be able to request your suggested FRA-SFO and get a 'forced' upgrade seat since their original route had cleared via GPU?

I had no issues with agents opening up NF or NC in the past, but that was before the HouCrew came into the picture.

If the OP can get a good 1K agent in HNL/DTW/ORD RR, I'd say they may stand a chance. Some agents still believe in helping their elite customers, unlike most of the CO res clan. :td:

My second thought is that this is not at all surprising, given what UA is these days.

Attempting to be a profitable company? 3 Class domestic birds really don't make much sense if revenue can be maximized on international routes. What other domestic carrier regularly flies domestic widebody premium-cabin flights? There are a few rare examples, but nothing consistent.

Attempting to be a profitable company? 3 Class domestic birds really don't make much sense if revenue can be maximized on international routes. What other domestic carrier regularly flies domestic widebody premium-cabin flights? There are a few rare examples, but nothing consistent.

United's last quarterly earnings report leads me to believe they don't want to be a profitable company.

AA has 3 class birds on high density routes here and there, and DL has BusinessElite equipment as well on routes like ATL-LAX.

United was still profitable in its last quarterly statement. They didnt lose money. While they certainly could have and should have made more, they didnt lose any.

Density for an airline means packing as many seats as possible onto an airplane. three class domestic is anything but dense. Airlines tend to make deploy "dense" birds on flights where they need to make money by volume - where fares are low and people arent ponying up to pay lots of fares. When an airline recognizes that that's the type of route they have, and deploy the appropriate aircraft, that shows they are attempting to be profitable. ORD-SFO has gone to a somewhat low fare route due to VX and AA competition, so I'd say this is a move to restore profitablity on that route (and I'm sorry if somebody using a mileage upgrade doesnt get the lie flat).

AA does NOT have 3 class birds on any high density domestic routes. AA only has 3 class domestic birds on JFK-LAX/SFO consistently. No more 777 ORD-DFW (that went away over a year ago) nor on any other domestic route. DL uses business elite equipment on ATL-LAX just as a way to keep the airplane moving and generating some revenue in between international routes, not because tons of people are paying full fare to go ATL-LAX.


United's last quarterly earnings report leads me to believe they don't want to be a profitable company.

AA has 3 class birds on high density routes here and there, and DL has BusinessElite equipment as well on routes like ATL-LAX.

Also curious if you are aware first-hand if agents have the authority (surely need a supervisor, need one for practically everything these days :rolleyes: )to 'open up' upgrade space if re-routing becomes necessary due to schedule changes? Would the OP be able to request your suggested FRA-SFO and get a 'forced' upgrade seat since their original route had cleared via GPU?

"Rule 260" - this would be a great time to ask if it's still in effect!

AA does NOT have 3 class birds on any high density domestic routes. AA only has 3 class domestic birds on JFK-LAX/SFO consistently. No more 777 ORD-DFW (that went away over a year ago) nor on any other domestic route.

Looks like AA is running two 777s and a 763 MIA-LAX tomorrow. Along with a 762 and a 763 MIA-JFK. And a 763 DFW-LAX. Sure the same for the reverse of each too.

My second thought is that this is not at all surprising, given what UA is these days.

Attempting to be a profitable company? 3 Class domestic birds really don't make much sense if revenue can be maximized on international routes. What other domestic carrier regularly flies domestic widebody premium-cabin flights? There are a few rare examples, but nothing consistent.

Out of curiosity - are you actually flying United these days?

United's last quarterly earnings report leads me to believe they don't want to be a profitable company.

AA has 3 class birds on high density routes here and there, and DL has BusinessElite equipment as well on routes like ATL-LAX.

I'm sure you are correct - UA has NO intention of becoming a profitable carrier. :rolleyes:

Again, if you read my post, there are examples. HOWEVER, it is mostly for equipment placement. Believe me, DL isn't flying BE equipped planes ATL-LAX to provide Medallions with free upgrades to BE. It is flying them to position them for maintenance. They have reduced this significantly over the past couple of years. Rightfully so. It is a waste of money.




Out of curiosity - are you actually flying United these days?

Yes.

1. If you don't like the reroute offered, call UA. But, you will find better results if you have done the proactive research and propose the specific The alternatives (by date, carrier, flight number) and ask. LH is a good alternative, because it's *A and UA/LH revenue share on TATL, so it's not actually costing UA anything to switch you. (This is not a point to make to a CSR).

2. As to aircraft, the fact is that the sole reason for any 3-class intl. configuration birds on domestic routes is that the aircraft is at location X and is needed in location Y. The fact that AA may find profit on another route doesn't mean that it's profitable for UA on SFO-ORD (except to the extent that they would have to fly the aircraft empty otherwise).

3. You can bet that if there were a market for GF-type 3-class service on domestic routes, UA would beg, borrow or steal the aircraft to service the routes. The underlying data is a trade secret so you & I will never know, but I have to assume that UA, just like other carriers, looks closely at aircraft utilization.

4. Note that DL, which is by far the most profitable US carrier, doesn't even have 3-class service anywhere. I have to suspect that's where the USA business is headed.

"Rule 260" - this would be a great time to ask if it's still in effect!


I think you mean Rule 240 (Rule 260 covers involuntary refunds). Rule 260 covers rerouting on another airline if they can get you to your destination sooner than your original airline, following a cancellation under the airline's control. Even though the rule disappeared officially when the airline industry deregulated, I've used it successfully as recently as about 6 months ago. Still got the MP miles as well.

I think you mean Rule 240
I don't think so. Rule 260 IN THIS CASE concerns whether or not a pax can successfully re-apply their GPU to a different flight in case of schedule change.
Rule 260 covers involuntary refunds.
It MAY do that, I don't know. But, it most certainly covers upgrading on a schedule change. (http://nicholaskralev.com/tag/rule-260/)
Dave

Looks like AA is running two 777s and a 763 MIA-LAX tomorrow. Along with a 762 and a 763 MIA-JFK. And a 763 DFW-LAX. Sure the same for the reverse of each too.


I believe all of AAs 763s are 2-class nowadays.

I think you mean Rule 240 (Rule 260 covers involuntary refunds). Rule 260 covers rerouting on another airline if they can get you to your destination sooner than your original airline, following a cancellation under the airline's control. Even though the rule disappeared officially when the airline industry deregulated, I've used it successfully as recently as about 6 months ago. Still got the MP miles as well.

Nope, rule 260 (Kralev link above) - they can open up either upgrade or revenue space for you if you've already been upgraded and are negatively impacted by a schedule change.

Same happened to me 767 from SFO-ORD changed from 3 class 767 now 320 2 class- and still showing me wait listed for F on a P fare (again)

Nope, rule 260 (Kralev link above) - they can open up either upgrade or revenue space for you if you've already been upgraded and are negatively impacted by a schedule change.

You're correct - I was thinking about the OP's ability to specify which airline and flights he wants to move to (which is the purpose of Rule 240), rather than the upgrade issue (which is part of 260). When I've invoked Rule 240, it's always with the specific airline and flight number I want. In the (very) old days, they would issue a FIM (flight interrupt manifest) if you were at the beginning of your trip, so that your return wouldn't get canceled. It was a hand-filled out form that you carried over to the other airline's counter. No idea if that's still in effect.

You're correct - I was thinking about the OP's ability to specify which airline and flights he wants to move to (which is the purpose of Rule 240), rather than the upgrade issue (which is part of 260). When I've invoked Rule 240, it's always with the specific airline and flight number I want. In the (very) old days, they would issue a FIM (flight interrupt manifest) if you were at the beginning of your trip, so that your return wouldn't get canceled. It was a hand-filled out form that you carried over to the other airline's counter. No idea if that's still in effect.

But also, I have no idea if Rule 260 even still exists - would love for fastair or any other reps to let us know if they have any idea

Thanks everyone!

Called UA last night, was told that they cannot put me on AMS-FRA even though it is a UA codeshare on LH. Even spoke with an alleged service director who alluded I needed to escalate the matter but did not provide a method to do so. Sorry for the skepticism but I have been lied to too many times this year.

They insist on flying me to either IAD or EWR or IAH when the overall experience will be very different than what I had booked. I would normally be understanding but really would like them to make it convenient/comfortable for me.

Before changes: 15 hours in lie-flat on the way to AMS, 17 hours in lie flat on the way back.

After changes: 7 hours in the lie flat on the way to AMS, 8 hours in lie flat on the way home.

Had i known i would have booked via FRA instead to maximize that time. Am i being unreasonable here or does this make sense? Can i insist of the re-route that works for me provided it is all on Star and I am willing to sit in economy for the LH AMS-FRA leg that connects to UA FRA-SFO?

UAinsider is trying to help me so I am holding out hope. Will keep you updated.

PS: GPU was applied on my re-route home. Not sure if this space was open prior or if that is why they re-routed me in such a dumb way.

PPS: This is not an award ticket but a W fare upgraded with GPUs.

Called back today and apparently I can be put on AMS-FRA.

But they refuse to open up R space on the UA flight from FRA-SFO.

They are telling me I am asking for an exception when they initiated this mess in the first place and can't get their policies straight.

I guess i am just fed up with this whole thing.

Called back today and apparently I can be put on AMS-FRA.

But they refuse to open up R space on the UA flight from FRA-SFO.

They are telling me I am asking for an exception when they initiated this mess in the first place and can't get their policies straight.

I guess i am just fed up with this whole thing.

Did they offer you to change return to 1-stop via EWR with confirmed upgrades? If yes, I would take it. Asking to reroute on LH to FRA and open an award space is unreasonable if AMS-EWR-SFO is available.

Did they offer you to change return to 1-stop via EWR with confirmed upgrades? If yes, I would take it. Asking to reroute on LH to FRA and open an award space is unreasonable if AMS-EWR-SFO is available.

I think i have an angel on the line right now. Fingers crossed.

If not I will go AMS-IAH-SFO and just get it over with.

When you go to Europe for the day the lie flat seat is critical hence my request to maximize that time on the return routing through FRA. But i guess i'll get over it.

I think i have an angel on the line right now. Fingers crossed.

If not I will go AMS-IAH-SFO and just get it over with.

When you go to Europe for the day the lie flat seat is critical hence my request to maximize that time on the return routing through FRA. But i guess i'll get over it.

Hope it works out. These crappy changes are happening with annoying frequency since 3/3.

Wow, just wow! I really did get an angel and it i am so grateful to her for fixing my birthday trip. It took a while but she understood why I was asking for that route and made it happen.

:)^:-:

Wow, just wow! I really did get an angel and it i am so grateful to her for fixing my birthday trip. It took a while but she understood why I was asking for that route and made it happen.

:)^:-:

What are you saying? She opened R space on FRA SFO?

What are you saying? She opened R space on FRA SFO?

It took some time but yes, she opened up R space on FRA-SFO so I could fly home AMS-FRA-SFO.

Called back today and apparently I can be put on AMS-FRA.

But they refuse to open up R space on the UA flight from FRA-SFO.

They are telling me I am asking for an exception when they initiated this mess in the first place and can't get their policies straight.

I guess i am just fed up with this whole thing.

As someone who travels a great deal and spends his life up in the air, I can sympathize with your frustrations. You can try and ask, what's the most they can say, no?

From what I see, you may have to bite the bullet - I have learned not to let this get you so upset you don't enjoy yourself in the red light district in AMS for your b-day :o

It took some time but yes, she opened up R space on FRA-SFO so I could fly home AMS-FRA-SFO.

Good for you! Yay! Have a great time in AMS!