DiningBuzz! - Recommend a Châteauneuf-du-Pape

After many years of living here in Europe and developing an appreciation for French wine from so many different regions, Châteauneuf-du-Pape remains something of a mystery to me. We have good wine periodically from all along the Rhone valley to Languedoc-Roussillon, yet can't seem to find any Châteauneuf-du-Pape that I would want to drink twice. Yesterday I went shopping and two bottles caught my eye - a €46 Châteauneuf-du-Pape and a €26 Chambolle-Musigny. I bought the Chambolle-Musigny and when I took my first drink later I actually uttered 'oh my god' to myself. I'm going to guess if I had bought the other I would have thought, 'meh, €46 wasted'.

However, I don't want to give up on it yet - I want to get that one 'aha' bottle, where I finally get the essence of that region.

So, any recommendations for say, €30 or less, or must I up my price point to find something drinkable?

After many years of living here in Europe and developing an appreciation for French wine from so many different regions, Châteauneuf-du-Pape remains something of a mystery to me. We have good wine periodically from all along the Rhone valley to Languedoc-Roussillon, yet can't seem to find any Châteauneuf-du-Pape that I would want to drink twice. Yesterday I went shopping and two bottles caught my eye - a €46 Châteauneuf-du-Pape and a €26 Chambolle-Musigny. I bought the Chambolle-Musigny and when I took my first drink later I actually uttered 'oh my god' to myself. I'm going to guess if I had bought the other I would have thought, 'meh, €46 wasted'.

However, I don't want to give up on it yet - I want to get that one 'aha' bottle, where I finally get the essence of that region.

So, any recommendations for say, €30 or less, or must I up my price point to find something drinkable?

First question - what was the 46 Euro bottle? If it was Clos Pegau, or Vieux Telegraphe, it would probably have wowed you. Not sure of what the market prices are where you live, but if the lion's share of Chateauneuf bottlings are around 25-30 Euros, that's probably not a sweet-spot, quality-wise. Most of the better Chateauneuf du Pape bottlings come from small domaines and tend to sell for $45-60 a bottle in the U.S.

I might add, you got pretty lucky to get a really good Chambolle for 26 Euros - it certainly happens, but it's atypical.

First question - what was the 46 Euro bottle? If it was Clos Pegau, or Vieux Telegraphe, it would probably have wowed you. Not sure of what the market prices are where you live, but if the lion's share of Chateauneuf bottlings are around 25-30 Euros, that's probably not a sweet-spot, quality-wise. Most of the better Chateauneuf du Pape bottlings come from small domaines and tend to sell for $45-60 a bottle in the U.S.


Vieux Telegraphe, but I didn't note the label or vintage. You may have answered my question - I've generally been buying in the 10-20 Euros range, which might be why I'm not getting quality. I've found I can get plenty of good St. Joseph or Crozes-Hermitage in that range, but maybe for Chateauneuf du Pape I need to go higher.


I might add, you got pretty lucky to get a really good Chambolle for 26 Euros - it certainly happens, but it's atypical.

I would guess since I'm buying in France I probably get a significantly better price than what it would cost in the states, but I don't know, sometimes the pricing in the states will surprise you compared to here.

One can always remove and save the labels of remarkable wines in France.

There are kits sold for same here in Europe, or the waiter may be able to do this for you. They being professionals can perform this task with a little water and extra time.

I used to do this using a kit from North America that took the printed side of the label off by sticking to it, and we have a nice collection of labels from California, Washington, and Oregon in a leather-bound binder that came with the kit.

Today I find it quicker if I snap a close-up photo with my phone. For some strange, unknown reason the bottle in the photo is always empty, a good excuse for another bottle to enjoy with dessert.

yet can't seem to find any Châteauneuf-du-Pape that I would want to drink twice.

Maybe you just don't like them? There's nothing wrong with that, but if so far they really have not done anything for you, then you should probably not keep trying. It could simply be that's not the grape or blend for you depending on which you have had.

I remember seeing one on a menu in a steak house that I wanted to try and did not want a heavy wine, and the waiter did his best to talk me out of it saying they were all horrible wines, etc. Some people just don't like them.

Maybe you just don't like them? There's nothing wrong with that, but if so far they really have not done anything for you, then you should probably not keep trying. It could simply be that's not the grape or blend for you depending on which you have had.

I've been reading Andrew Jeffords great book, "The New France", and he posits that, with respect to CdP, "the mania for cuvée de prestiges (special selections of the total crop)... are depleting and impoverishing the quality of the ordinary wine"', resulting in "much feebly flavoured Chateauneuf on sale". He also says though that "the 1998 and 2000 vintages (my edition is a few years old) were among the greatest southern Rhone wines ever vinified" and he felt it a privilege to be alive at that moment and drinking them. That's a pretty strong statement.

I might buy one more bottle, maybe even that Vieux Telegraphe, and give it a shot. If it really doesn't wow me, then, yep, it's time to move on.


I remember seeing one on a menu in a steak house that I wanted to try and did not want a heavy wine, and the waiter did his best to talk me out of it saying they were all horrible wines, etc. Some people just don't like them.

That to me is unbelievable. I've never in my life had a waiter try to talk me out of a wine selection, even when I've chosen poorly.

cdp is parker's dream wine. i bought a case of '90 beaucastel just before he came out with his raves and rating of the stuff. the merchant was so excited when i brought 11 bottles back, he gave me credit for 12. i had a purple tongue party. went all over town, and bought about 20 different cdps. had about a dozen people who are in the wine biz over. they thought i was playing some kind of a joke on them. this was the worst received party since my camaniere party, and a close second to my south african party. i like some of the grapes mixed in cdp, but the wine itself to me is a joke. we have been to cdp(the vineyard on top of the hill) a number of times. to quote that old lady, "where's the beef?"

oh, oh, and to recommend a good one, get either an aussi or a california knockoff. some of them are really good.

If you want a really good Red Rhone for under 25 Euro, I'd be looking for wines from Cornas.

Some of my favorite producers are Auguste Clape, Alain Voge, and Jean-Luc Columbo.

These are definitely a cut above most St. Joseph, Crozes Hermitage, and the less costly Chateauneuf du Papes.

I find them close in quality to Cote Rotie, Hermitage and the best Chateauneuf do Pape wines, for around half the price.

Maybe you just don't like them? There's nothing wrong with that, but if so far they really have not done anything for you, then you should probably not keep trying. It could simply be that's not the grape or blend for you depending on which you have had.

I remember seeing one on a menu in a steak house that I wanted to try and did not want a heavy wine, and the waiter did his best to talk me out of it saying they were all horrible wines, etc. Some people just don't like them.

Actually, he's just hit a market characteristic. Chateauneuf du Pape has several really good small Domaines, but they do tend to skim the quality off of the top, and price the good stuff at a premium. So he's run into an 80/20 rule. The top 20% are quite tasty, but somewhat pricey wines, whereas the bottom 80% are living off the reputation of the better ones, but they are rather indistinguished for the price they get, which is inflated by the lofty reps and prices of their bigger, better brothers. And Rhone wines from less famous towns are of comparable quality to the 80% Chateuneufs, but you can buy those other less famous Rhone wines for half the price.

Among other Rhone towns: Cote Rotie is almost universally high quality stuff, but it runs the gamut from pricey, to very pricey.

Hermitage is also pretty consistently high quality, but production is quite small, hence it is also very pricey.

St. Joseph and Crozes-Hermitage, tend to be reliable, good quality - but not great, and substantial production, so they are a consistent source of good, moderately priced robust wines.

Which leads me to my favorite place in the area - Cornas, which has recently had several quality driven producers that have made really fine wines, that have approached Cote Rotie and Hermitage in quality, but still don't have that lofty a reputation as those two towns, so the wines can be fine values for really good quality.

Chateauneuf du Pape has the largest overall production in the Rhone - but with high volumes and hundreds of producers, comes a wide range of quality and pricing, and makes the area confusing for someone who's just trying to get a feel for the wines of the area. They run the gamut from junk, to spectacular, and all levels in between, and a wide range of values as well.

cdp is parker's dream wine. i bought a case of '90 beaucastel just before he came out with his raves and rating of the stuff. the merchant was so excited when i brought 11 bottles back, he gave me credit for 12. i had a purple tongue party. went all over town, and bought about 20 different cdps. had about a dozen people who are in the wine biz over. they thought i was playing some kind of a joke on them. this was the worst received party since my camaniere party, and a close second to my south african party. i like some of the grapes mixed in cdp, but the wine itself to me is a joke. we have been to cdp(the vineyard on top of the hill) a number of times. to quote that old lady, "where's the beef?"

oh, oh, and to recommend a good one, get either an aussi or a california knockoff. some of them are really good.

Beaucastel is a truly maddening wine for me. They bottle from individual casks without blending them together, and that makes the quality quite erratic. Some of the very greatest bottles I've ever had of Chateauneuf du Pape have been Chateau Beaucastels. Also some of the worst, weirdest flawed wines.

Of course, it goes without saying that when Parker tastes their wines, they are giving him samples that came from the best barrels they have in any vintage.

When the stuff used to sell for under $20 a bottle, I could put up with the variability, and await the really great ones, and treat it like buying a lottery ticket. Nowadays, for what the wines sell for, I won't take the chance, and Domains like Pegau, and Vieux Telegraphe, are much more consistent and somewhat less costly.

After many years of living here in Europe and developing an appreciation for French wine from so many different regions, Châteauneuf-du-Pape remains something of a mystery to me. We have good wine periodically from all along the Rhone valley to Languedoc-Roussillon, yet can't seem to find any Châteauneuf-du-Pape that I would want to drink twice. Yesterday I went shopping and two bottles caught my eye - a €46 Châteauneuf-du-Pape and a €26 Chambolle-Musigny. I bought the Chambolle-Musigny and when I took my first drink later I actually uttered 'oh my god' to myself. I'm going to guess if I had bought the other I would have thought, 'meh, €46 wasted'.

However, I don't want to give up on it yet - I want to get that one 'aha' bottle, where I finally get the essence of that region.

So, any recommendations for say, €30 or less, or must I up my price point to find something drinkable?



If you can find it, 2007 Chateau de la Gardine CDP is just fantastic, and at a very reasonable ~$40 price point.

Otherwise, I'd second the Cornas recommendation, as well as Gigondas.

Some of my favorite producers are Auguste Clape, Alain Voge, and Jean-Luc Columbo.


If you can find it, 2007 Chateau de la Gardine CDP is just fantastic, and at a very reasonable ~$40 price point.

Otherwise, I'd second the Cornas recommendation, as well as Gigondas.

Thanks for the recommendations - I looked and all of these are readily available at various price points. Over a period of time when I've had a chance to try some I'll reply back on the thread with my thoughts.

Update on this one - went back yesterday and picked up that €46 Châteauneuf-du-Pape, and, I have to admit, it was very good. I would definitely drink it again, however, probably not at that price point. I found another store nearby selling the same bottle for €33, which for my taste I would consider about right.

If you enjoyed the Vieux Telegraphe, you should seek their second label Vieux Telegramme. It is one of the few second label CNdP that carries forward the value of the original. The '07 is drinking well right now. The '09 still needs time. Those are the only two I have in the (very) limited collection at home.

If you enjoyed the Vieux Telegraphe, you should seek their second label Vieux Telegramme. It is one of the few second label CNdP that carries forward the value of the original. The '07 is drinking well right now. The '09 still needs time. Those are the only two I have in the (very) limited collection at home.

I'll take a look for it. On the internet it would appear to be about half the price.

We really need a "What are you drinking tonight thread" for wine drinkers. Last night I opened a cheap Crozes-Hermitage for our second bottle late in the evening and after sticking my nose in had to call my wife over to tell me I wasn't crazy - it had an absolutely unmistakeable aroma of latex, like a condom or balloon on the nose! And to top it off it tasted strongly of grapefruit. Who would imagine such a drink being appealing

[QUOTE=lancebanyon;19163011

We really need a "What are you drinking tonight thread" for wine drinkers. Last night I opened a cheap Crozes-Hermitage for our second bottle late in the evening and after sticking my nose in had to call my wife over to tell me I wasn't crazy - it had an absolutely unmistakeable aroma of latex, like a condom or balloon on the nose! And to top it off it tasted strongly of grapefruit. Who would imagine such a drink being appealing[/QUOTE]

if it has a good looking label, and the purveyor claims parker of ws gave it a"90" not only will it sell like hotcakes, but most of the wine drinkers will say "yum, yum" and come back for more.

if it has a good looking label, and the purveyor claims parker of ws gave it a"90" not only will it sell like hotcakes, but most of the wine drinkers will say "yum, yum" and come back for more.

Parker would need CPR if he tried this wine. Definitely one you only want to open when it's late, you're buzzed already, and you want that last push over the edge. Think Boone's Farm, if they still make that.

Parker would need CPR if he tried this wine. Definitely one you only want to open when it's late, you're buzzed already, and you want that last push over the edge. Think Boone's Farm, if they still make that.

Could easily have been a corked bottle - latex is one of the aromas that can be given off by a defective cork.

Okay, just to close this out, we decided (purely for scientific reasons of course...) to try a variety of Rhone wines over the past week, north and south, based on some of the recommendations in this thread. From the north we had Cornas, Cote Rotie, St. Joseph, and Crozes-Hermitage, and from the south we had three more CDPs, Gigondas, and Rasteau (we also had four wines from Languedoc-Roussillon as 'palette cleansers').

Of the northern Rhone wines we liked the Cote Rotie the best. I think the Cornas would probably be great - in six or seven years. Just felt like it needed more time in the bottle. I liked the Allan Graillot Crozes-Hermitage a lot as well. The St. Joseph didn't really compare well with the others, but was significantly cheaper and still quite drinkable.

From the south the Gigondas and Rasteau were both great value and very drinkable also. Two of the CDPs were great, however, the cheapest one tasted like grappa. We couldn't get it down but I did give a hell of an effort.

After all this drinking I think I finally get it. I find myself now sort of craving the mouthfeel of those southern Rhone wines. The better ones were soft and gave a sensation of the wine melting in your mouth. It's very seductive and I can understand now why people pay good money for it.

Heading to the states for a couple of weeks - hopefully my liver will recover

Okay, just to close this out, we decided (purely for scientific reasons of course...) to try a variety of Rhone wines over the past week, north and south, based on some of the recommendations in this thread. From the north we had Cornas, Cote Rotie, St. Joseph, and Crozes-Hermitage, and from the south we had three more CDPs, Gigondas, and Rasteau (we also had four wines from Languedoc-Roussillon as 'palette cleansers').

Of the northern Rhone wines we liked the Cote Rotie the best. I think the Cornas would probably be great - in six or seven years. Just felt like it needed more time in the bottle. I liked the Allan Graillot Crozes-Hermitage a lot as well. The St. Joseph didn't really compare well with the others, but was significantly cheaper and still quite drinkable.

From the south the Gigondas and Rasteau were both great value and very drinkable also. Two of the CDPs were great, however, the cheapest one tasted like grappa. We couldn't get it down but I did give a hell of an effort.

After all this drinking I think I finally get it. I find myself now sort of craving the mouthfeel of those southern Rhone wines. The better ones were soft and gave a sensation of the wine melting in your mouth. It's very seductive and I can understand now why people pay good money for it.

Heading to the states for a couple of weeks - hopefully my liver will recover

Well, as I said in my summary of the various Rhone regions in reply #9 of this thread, Cote Rotie is almost universally high quality stuff, but it is also among the priciest of all the Rhone regions, because of that consistent high quality.

In any case, Cote Rotie producers to be on the lookout for:

Guigal (unfortunately, Robert Parker sent this guy's wines skyrocketing in price about 15-20 years ago, and they have stayed in the stratosphere).

My personal fave: Michel et Stephane Ogier - in the interest of full disclosure, I'm highly biased about this producer, because they graced me with incredible hospitality during a visit to the region about 15 years ago - including gifting me with several rare and spectacular bottles of older vintages that I had inquired about buying from them, after a fantastic dinner and tasting at their home/domaine, arranged by a mutual friend.

Robert Jasmin

Jean-Luc Jamet,

Rene Rostaing

Domaine Gangloff - very exotic, almost savage wines - less refined than say, Guigal, Ogier or Jamet's wines, but really interesting - might be an acquired taste

Henri Gallet

Clusel-Roch - might be more inconsistent than the other domaines listed here.

I consider myself an avid fan of Châteauneuf-du-Pape...

I like the Château Mont-Redon... an excellent bottle every time.

http://www.chateaumontredon.fr/index%20an.htm

La Janasse has a really wonderful lineup.

http://www.lajanasse.com/

Kirkland labeled from Costso. I kid you not. $20 and a real diamond in the rough. Worst case you're out $20.

Kirkland labeled from Costso. I kid you not. $20 and a real diamond in the rough. Worst case you're out $20.

i think 20 bucks is way too much for a chatenauf. fool that i am, i could not pass up a couple of cases of 2000 clos du calvaire(domain du pere pape. a louie latour import) cork branded mayard. i paid 180 a case, even this is a bad deal to my taste. will feed it to my wife....

http://www.chateauneuf.dk/en/cdpen62.htm

i think 20 bucks is way too much for a chatenauf. fool that i am, i could not pass up a couple of cases of 2000 clos du calvaire(domain du pere pape. a louie latour import) cork branded mayard. i paid 180 a case, even this is a bad deal to my taste. will feed it to my wife....

http://www.chateauneuf.dk/en/cdpen62.htm

As a DC local like you, I'll take a few bottle off your hands for a fair price! And your wife will never have to know... :)

No kidding, I am stateside and would gladly take some of that for $20! I'm drinking a Russian River Valley for that price tonight and wishing I was home. Definitely need to learn more about American wine so I can pick winners. Last RRV I had a couple of months ago was amazing. Too bad I don't remember what it was.

I admire your generosity and sacrifice to assist another FT member in need.

Kirkland labeled from Costso. I kid you not. $20 and a real diamond in the rough. Worst case you're out $20.

Costco got this in bulk from the Domaine de Nalys, which is a well regarded producer in Chateauneuf du Pape. I was surprised that they were allowed to state this on the label, as typically, these sort of deals are done in a hush-hush manner. It's very possible that they got the entirety of the Nalys production that was earmarked for the U.S., so that Domaine de Nalys did not find themselves and another U.S distributor of theirs (who would surely have been quite pissed-off) competing on price with their own wine.

After many years of living here in Europe and developing an appreciation for French wine from so many different regions, Châteauneuf-du-Pape remains something of a mystery to me. We have good wine periodically from all along the Rhone valley to Languedoc-Roussillon, yet can't seem to find any Châteauneuf-du-Pape that I would want to drink twice. Yesterday I went shopping and two bottles caught my eye - a €46 Châteauneuf-du-Pape and a €26 Chambolle-Musigny. I bought the Chambolle-Musigny and when I took my first drink later I actually uttered 'oh my god' to myself. I'm going to guess if I had bought the other I would have thought, 'meh, €46 wasted'.

However, I don't want to give up on it yet - I want to get that one 'aha' bottle, where I finally get the essence of that region.

So, any recommendations for say, €30 or less, or must I up my price point to find something drinkable?

Here are a couple, a cheap one and an expensive one:

http://www.winedrop.co.uk/chateauneuf-du-pape-domaine-du-rempart~216

http://www.winedrop.co.uk/chateauneuf-du-pape-chateau-de-beaucastel~1154

Here are a couple, a cheap one and an expensive one:

http://www.winedrop.co.uk/chateauneuf-du-pape-domaine-du-rempart~216

http://www.winedrop.co.uk/chateauneuf-du-pape-chateau-de-beaucastel~1154

Thanks, and welcome to FT by the way! I think I had enough CDP over the past six weeks (maybe 20 to 25 bottles) that I've finally satisfied myself as to my original question. Of all that I tried (and can remember) I think Vieux Telegraphe and Usseglio were probably my favorites. Didn't particularly care for Charvin or Marcoux, which came highly recommended by my local wine seller. Along the way had maybe 5 or 6 Gigondas, which were okay, not special, and a Vacqueyras which I couldn't drink. Seems to be a fine line with these wines between great and crap.

Turning next to Bourgogne Blancs. I've never been much of a white wine fan, but recently I ordered a Saint Aubin 1er Cru en Remilly (by mistake actually) and I'll be damned if it wasn't great. Definitely sparked my interest in those wines. We had had a CDP blanc and a Condrieu along with the other Rhone wines, and neither did a thing for us.

Kirkland labeled from Costso. I kid you not. $20 and a real diamond in the rough. Worst case you're out $20.

Costco got this in bulk from the Domaine de Nalys, which is a well regarded producer in Chateauneuf du Pape. I was surprised that they were allowed to state this on the label, as typically, these sort of deals are done in a hush-hush manner. It's very possible that they got the entirety of the Nalys production that was earmarked for the U.S., so that Domaine de Nalys did not find themselves and another U.S distributor of theirs (who would surely have been quite pissed-off) competing on price with their own wine.

Kirkland Signature has quite a few wines with its label that prove to be an exceptional value. Unfortunately they never seem to be in stock long- so when you see it pick it up. Try a bottle that night and if you enjoy it, go back the next day and pick up a case ;) Shifting grapes, but they have a strong showing with Malbec too. ^