Southwest Rapid Rewards - Southwest charges debit card $11K for $135 ticket

Sounds like there were lots of similar glitches ...

CBS Local Sacramento: Call Kurtis: Southwest Billing Glitch Leaves Customers With No Way to Pay Bills (http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/08/09/call-kurtis-southwest-billing-glitch-leaves-customers-with-no-way-to-pay-bills/)

The billing issue affected customers across the country, although the airline hasn’t told CBS13 how many.

Cobian booked her ticket with a debit card tied directly to her bank account.

In an online statement, Southwest blames the duplicate charges on a “website performance issue” after Friday’s half off sale to celebrate reaching 3-million Facebook fans.

The airline said Saturday it knew of the problem and was processing refunds and would reimburse customers all of their overdraft fees.

Ouch!

Never use a debit card.

Never use a debit card.

Oh please. This is not the customer's fault for what card she used. This is Southwest's fault, 100%, in every way. It was insanely unacceptable, to the point of reprehensible on their part, to have such a godawful system. That bug NEVER should have been allowed to happen. Their entire IT department should be fired, as should absolutely everyone in charge of it.

Never use a debit card.

I'll second that. Too much risk IMO. You get protections with a cc. Yeah, I know the banks promise protections, but when your account gets cleaned out, you're left with the aftermath of getting the funds back in and dealing with all the bounced checks etc. Only thing I worry about is getting kidnapped, taken to an ATM and then getting murdered because I've got no ATM card, no debit card, no pin on CC and would not know how to use an ATM even if I had that stuff. :rolleyes:

Oh please. This is not the customer's fault for what card she used. This is Southwest's fault, 100%, in every way. It was insanely unacceptable, to the point of reprehensible on their part, to have such a godawful system. That bug NEVER should have been allowed to happen. Their entire IT department should be fired, as should absolutely everyone in charge of it.

I think UA is hiring :D
Seriously, do you realize that almost every airline forum on FT has someone that posts the same comment. "get rid of the IT dept" XX uses the worst system, blah blah blah
Over at SQ, it was the computer opening all F & C inventory to partners for awards, at UA it was 4 miles for a F tkt to HKG, LY charged to little tax, BA charged to much tax, etc, etc. admittedly, this situation w South West is horrendous. Many people were severely inconvienenced. However, South West is paying any fees (as they should) and other then a few heart attacks when balances were checked, no one is out anything. Every computer system at every airline screws up. Some more often then others but they are all just computers. There will always be glitches and mistakes, it's just part of life

Never use a debit card.

Great first post!

Lol

You can always set a limit on your debit card as well

I think UA is hiring :D
Seriously, do you realize that almost every airline forum on FT has someone that posts the same comment. "get rid of the IT dept" XX uses the worst system, blah blah blah
Over at SQ, it was the computer opening all F & C inventory to partners for awards, at UA it was 4 miles for a F tkt to HKG, LY charged to little tax, BA charged to much tax, etc, etc. admittedly, this situation w South West is horrendous

It's not that its horrendous (though it is). It's that it's not an isolated incident. SW's IT dept has a track record of abysmal upkeep on their systems. It is not this one incident that leads me to suggest their department needs an overhaul. It is the consistent and highly apparent pattern of continually doing a sub-standard job in nearly all aspects of system maintenance and development.

Many people were severely inconvienenced. However, South West is paying any fees (as they should)

Not true. They are paying overdraft fees. Period. Absolutely no reports I've seen of them paying the late fees for any other bills that were missed due to customers not having any money in their accounts with which to pay their bills for utitlity, rent, mortgage, credit card, etc. If you've seen some evidence that they are doing so, please by all means let me know. I would truly LOVE to stand corrected on this one.

and other then a few heart attacks when balances were checked, no one is out anything.

Again, not true. See above. In addition to the monetary fees, not having money with which to pay your credit card bills has a hit to your personal credit score and credit report. Again, I have not seen Southwest make any assurance that they would work with any customers to repair and clean these reports.

Every computer system at every airline screws up. Some more often then others but they are all just computers. There will always be glitches and mistakes, it's just part of life

No. No computer system in the world "screws up". PROGRAMMERS screw up. SYS ADMINS screw up. DATABASE ADMINISTRATORS screw up. PEOPLE screw up. This is not to be blamed on random machines, on gremlins chewing on wires. This was human error, 100%, and the human beings responsible should have action taken against them.

I am a software engineer. I have worked as such for an international financial institution for about 7 years. If I ever made "screw ups" like this that cost my company god knows how much money and resulted in even more bad press, you can bet your butt I would not have a job the next day. Nor should I.

I'll second that. Too much risk IMO. You get protections with a cc. Yeah, I know the banks promise protections, but when your account gets cleaned out, you're left with the aftermath of getting the funds back in and dealing with all the bounced checks etc. Only thing I worry about is getting kidnapped, taken to an ATM and then getting murdered because I've got no ATM card, no debit card, no pin on CC and would not know how to use an ATM even if I had that stuff. :rolleyes:

And I will third that. Paying anything online (other than taxes) with a debit card is just asking for trouble.

However, according to some recently passed legislation, consumers are only responsible for fraudulent transactions only up to $50 of the purchase. Seeing as though the cardholder did not authorize the absurdly high transaction amount, this is fraudulent in my book.

Without absolving SW:

With ANY debit card, you have the choice of:
a/ refusing any charge that would exceeds your limit
b/ letting through those charges, but accepting overdraft fees

My recommendation: use option one.

The key issue with debit cards is that the money comes directly out of your checking account.

I had a co-worker in tears because her dentist accidentally processed an expensive payment twice to her debit card. The dentist was closed for the weekend. The bank said that it would take up to 2 weeks to remove the double charge. Meanwhile, she had no money to live on for the next week.

That's why I suggest (if at all possibe) to have a credit card or two for all online purchases. It has more protection and, most importantly, it doesn't debit directly from your banking account.

Oh please. This is not the customer's fault for what card she used. This is Southwest's fault, 100%, in every way. It was insanely unacceptable, to the point of reprehensible on their part, to have such a godawful system. That bug NEVER should have been allowed to happen. Their entire IT department should be fired, as should absolutely everyone in charge of it.

After a few decades in software design and development I can tell you that every large project ships with bugs. Microsoft updates my OS every Tuesday.

After a few decades in software design and development I can tell you that every large project ships with bugs. Microsoft updates my OS every Tuesday.

Well, no. They update the first Tuesday of the month.

You don't tell us how much experience you have with this horrid IT call www.southwest.com . If you have experience, then you can't possibly be making this comparison.

Well, no. They update the first Tuesday of the month.

Second Tuesday.

That's why I suggest (if at all possibe) to have a credit card or two for all online purchases. It has more protection and, most importantly, it doesn't debit directly from your banking account.

And for people that can't or don't want to use credit, you have other options. I have a prepaid AMEX card that I usually keep loaded for use online and for travel. It even comes with travel protections (though the protections are probably not nearly as good as a "regular" AMEX cardholder gets).

After a few decades in software design and development I can tell you that every large project ships with bugs. Microsoft updates my OS every Tuesday.

A "bug" is the fact that Southwest's website doesn't remember your login id even though you check "Remember Me".

Charging customers tens of thousands of dollars for a hundred dollar transaction, wiping out their bank accounts, causing all sorts of overdraft fees, late transaction fees, missed payment fees, etc - that goes well above "bug". That's as close to a software disaster as you can get. This is the equivalent of Microsoft not simply needing to update every 4 weeks, but instead Microsoft shipping a product that destroys every piece of hardware it comes in contact with.

A "bug" is the fact that Southwest's website doesn't remember your login id even though you check "Remember Me".

Charging customers tens of thousands of dollars for a hundred dollar transaction, wiping out their bank accounts, causing all sorts of overdraft fees, late transaction fees, missed payment fees, etc - that goes well above "bug". That's as close to a software disaster as you can get. This is the equivalent of Microsoft not simply needing to update every 4 weeks, but instead Microsoft shipping a product that destroys every piece of hardware it comes in contact with.

And honestly, WN's IT dept has been so bad for so long that management deserves to be fried for this monumental meltdown. They've known about the horrific IT situations that continue to continue and their incompetence should have been addressed way before now.

The key issue with debit cards is that the money comes directly out of your checking account.

I had a co-worker in tears because her dentist accidentally processed an expensive payment twice to her debit card. The dentist was closed for the weekend. The bank said that it would take up to 2 weeks to remove the double charge. Meanwhile, she had no money to live on for the next week.

That's why I suggest (if at all possibe) to have a credit card or two for all online purchases. It has more protection and, most importantly, it doesn't debit directly from your banking account.

After having my pay-pal account hacked causing my bank account to be drained, I learned to always have a separate account through another bank with emergency funds.

Oh please. This is not the customer's fault for what card she used. This is Southwest's fault, 100%, in every way. It was insanely unacceptable, to the point of reprehensible on their part, to have such a godawful system. That bug NEVER should have been allowed to happen. Their entire IT department should be fired, as should absolutely everyone in charge of it.

Oh, I totally agree that Southwest's entire IT department should be fired...they've proven ineptitude over and over again for the past four or five years.

But I'd also never use a debit card... @:-)

I keep Paypal and an ATM card tied to a simple credit union checking account that I keep a small amount of money in just for those two purposes. If a hacker got into that, he'd be pretty disappointed... :)

I'll second that. Too much risk IMO. You get protections with a cc. Yeah, I know the banks promise protections, but when your account gets cleaned out, you're left with the aftermath of getting the funds back in and dealing with all the bounced checks etc. Only thing I worry about is getting kidnapped, taken to an ATM and then getting murdered because I've got no ATM card, no debit card, no pin on CC and would not know how to use an ATM even if I had that stuff. :rolleyes:

As the bulk of crimes are remote, such as cloning and skimming, the fears of strong armed robbery should be low. It could happen, but it not worth such a high degree of worry compared to what usually happens...your info is caputred at a gas station or dining establishment. This happens to both debit and CC's. But to use a skimed debit they need to clone a full card, rather than simply go shopping online.

Generally speaking, because Debits have a PIN system, if you lose your card the person who tries to use it cannot because they don't know the PIN. Although cashiers are supposed to check ID and call for authorization on CC's, in actual practice they tend not to, especially in busy retail environments. Debits offer a kind of forced security.

When it comes to PCI/DSS and companies that have a spotty record of it, your information can sit around unprotected in hard copies, especially after manual slip transactions, for anyone to pilfer. That same information cannot be so easily abused in debit transactions..although I do admit the cards that function as BOTH present much more issue.

When it comes to airline tix and online purchases, they are essentially the same except for the interest on the debt. For retailers and providers, debit means the money actually has to be available at the time and it means more assurance that there will be no losses due to NSF. Small business owners and companies that have a CC batch failure and need to go manual lose alot of money to people who know their cards are burnt out but see the manual transaction as an opportunity to rip someone off.

With Romanian (I mention them because they have 1 IP address for the whole country, making them a hotbed for international CC fraud) crime rings who use automated CC number generators and who trade in live CC numbers, debits offer a much higher degree of protection.

That, and CC's charge interest while debit payments do not, although there is the odd serivce fee from merchants. There is really little sense to credit cards other than to generate debt and to pay more than the retail price on just about everything. The promise of "good credit" is more incentive to debt and goal oriented spending, especially with added services like miles etc. There is an old saying about airmiles: "The most expensive tickets in the world." You spend 3000 dollars for a 300 dollar ticket.

There is security to cc's, as they are not really your money and it's easier to fight if used improperly, but most debit providers also have dispute resolution and theft protection when you sign up, for a nominal fee.

Generally speaking, because Debits have a PIN system, if you lose your card the person who tries to use it cannot because they don't know the PIN. Although cashiers are supposed to check ID and call for authorization on CC's, in actual practice they tend not to, especially in busy retail environments. Debits offer a kind of forced security.

That, and CC's charge interest while debit payments do not. There is really little sense to credit cards other than to generate debt and to pay more than the retail price on just about everything. The promise of "good credit" is more incentive to debt and goal oriented spending, especially with added services like miles etc.

There is security to cc's, as they are not really your money and it's easier to fight if used improperly, but most debit providers also have dispute resolution and theft protection when you sign up, for a nominal fee.

Ok I am lost all cashiers are required to do is check the signature matches as far as I know they aren't really suppose to ask for ID

Yeah, it's actually a violation of the Visa and MasterCard merchant agreements to ask for ID when presented with a valid, signed credit card, although that doesn't stop stores from often doing it.

The credit card customer in the USA receives by law significant protections that are not provided to the debit card customer.

I have noticed the only places that check for an ID for credit card use is for large purchases such as the auto store when I put my new tires and brakes on my car, and gamestop.

I know checking ID even though against the merchant agreement I can understand a store wanting to make sure fraud is not comitted, but with credit card fraud the bank takes the loss so why should the store care if they get a sale and get to keep the money either way?

I cancelled my debit card about 6 months ago and only have an atm card now. All my plastic transactions are credit card only and I definitely have great peace of mind now. Yes debit cards have fraud protections, it is 50 dollars if you report it the first day, but if you report it the second day it is 500, and the third day you are liable for everything. Maybe not quite that extreme but needless to say unless you check your checking account every day you will be liable for a good chunk of change. Credit cards by law you are only liable for 50 dollars, but every credit card I have seen always goes the whole way and says you are not liable for anything.

Actually my bank texts me every time a transaction is made on my bank account, but I get your point Dadaluma

Debit cards are stupid....They should be used for cash and few rare instances where you do not have another choice. Anyone else who thinks otherwise has been brain washed by banks. Why anyone would give up the multiple protection a credit card gives I do not understand.

There is really little sense to credit cards other than to generate debt and to pay more than the retail price on just about everything.

:confused: This doesn't make any sense.

While I will occasionally use a credit card for leverage, that's a very minor use of them for me. I don't pay interest on any of my active-use credit cards. The use of the credit card is baked into the cost of the item, so using today's cash is the way you'd overpay for the item.

When I do decide to lever up on a credit card, that's by definition an inactive-use card so it doesn't affect the retail prices I'm paying on anything beyond the balance itself (which I've typically taken as cash and thrown into some other low-risk account).

There is an old saying about airmiles: "The most expensive tickets in the world." You spend 3000 dollars for a 300 dollar ticket.

This implies that you overspent for an item because of credit card use.

Potentially true in limited situations but definitely an outlier for most of my everyday spending in a first-world economy. In the U.S., the category that comes to mind where cash can make a difference is furniture. It's the primary item where you have to negotiate hard and the merchant accepts credit cards, thus opening that up as a bargaining chip. (Most car dealers state upfront what the max CC charge is. I suppose you can haggle that too, but now you're going the other way in the negotiations.)

Debit cards are stupid....They should be used for cash and few rare instances where you do not have another choice. Anyone else who thinks otherwise has been brain washed by banks. Why anyone would give up the multiple protection a credit card gives I do not understand.

LOL I can think of people who follow Dave Ramsey not having cc's or people that do not qualify for credit cards

LOL I can think of people who follow Dave Ramsey not having cc's or people that do not qualify for credit cards

Dave Ramsey gives a lot of very bad personal financial advice.

If you have no self-control, or are kinda stupid, you might listen to him to protect yourself. Otherwise, uh, no.

Debit cards are stupid....They should be used for cash and few rare instances where you do not have another choice. Anyone else who thinks otherwise has been brain washed by banks. Why anyone would give up the multiple protection a credit card gives I do not understand.

I guess I have to live off of my experience when my debit card experienced fraud. I was alerted by the bank and asked to check my account as they had suspended the debit card due to suspect charges. Logged in to my account on line and saw that there were multiple purchases made against my account several states away. The total was about $750.

My bank emailed me a claim form which I filled out and faxed back, confirmed receipt by phone, and 3 hours later a provisional credit for the full amount was put into my account. Two days later I was contacted by the Fraud division of the bank and a law enforcement agent from the state where the fraud occurred and answered some questions. A week after that, I was sent a letter stating the case was closed, the credit was permanent, and there was not a single penny of liability on my part (not even the $50 the bank technically was entitled to).

A three hour delay to be "made whole" cash wise seems pretty paltry.

Ok I am lost all cashiers are required to do is check the signature matches as far as I know they aren't really suppose to ask for ID

The CC companies say no, but local state laws say yes. Local laws will supercede corporate policy..besides, any merchant can turn down a sale for nearly any reason that is not clearly discriminatory. A sale is a contract, and both sides need to agree to the terms. If someone wants to buy a 4000 item from me using a CC, I am going to make sure they are the person named on the card to prevent a charge-back AND loss of merchandise.

There seems to be a uniquely american underlying paranoia that someone is always out to get you. Fraud happens, sure. but if we are going to sacrifice privacy for protection we deserve neither. Everytime you make a purchase on a CC your provider learns what you like, knows when you bought it (and therefore when you were not home), where you go, what brands you like and what your favorite dining establishments are. Increasingly, personal information becomes a commodity. You may think that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear...that may be true until the wrong people get their hands on the information or until you find yourself on the wrong side of unjust laws in the future. Cash offers somthing neither debits nor cc's can, and that is ANONYMITY at 0% interest without debt of any kind

I would rather be mugged of 11k in cash then be profiled, datamined, charged more, indebted and physically tracked over years and years.

Dave Ramsey gives a lot of very bad personal financial advice.

If you have no self-control, or are kinda stupid, you might listen to him to protect yourself. Otherwise, uh, no.

Dave Ramsey exists to pimp products on the radio. I really hope nobody is taking him too seriously. Much of his advice is actually quite dangerous...perhaps made dangerous by the fact that it's usually wrapped around a nugget of advice that most people would consider valid.

There seems to be a uniquely american underlying paranoia that someone is always out to get you.

....

I would rather be mugged of 11k in cash then be profiled, datamined, charged more, indebted and physically tracked over years and years.

I'm sorry, were you saying something about paranoia? ;)

This happened to me (on a much more limited basis... I book 2 flights, one of which was duplicated 2 times so that I ended up paying for that flight 3 times).

It was business travel on my corporate credit card, so not a huge deal. I called SW, they refunded the extras. Then the next day I got a call from SW saying they're sorry, but when attempting to fix the overall problem they actually cancelled and refunded my original two flights. She offered to rebook at the rate I originally had.

The next day I got an email saying they'd be sending me a travel voucher for $150 for the inconvenience. All the charges were refunded properly and I rebooked the flights without issue. I thought it was a good resolution to the moderate inconvenience I faced. Hope the guy with $11K in over-charges on his debt card got more than $150 in travel vouchers. :)

Everyone got the same voucher.

Everyone got the same voucher.

Having seen this website behavior before, when I got the message that my reservation hadn't gone through, I doubted the truth of the message and just let things ride for a few hours. The reservation had indeed been made and was now showing up in my itinerary list. If I see this again, I will go ahead and rebook it, hoping that there will again be a $150 voucher as the resolution.

Having seen this website behavior before, when I got the message that my reservation hadn't gone through, I doubted the truth of the message and just let things ride for a few hours. The reservation had indeed been made and was now showing up in my itinerary list. If I see this again, I will go ahead and rebook it, hoping that there will again be a $150 voucher as the resolution.

The vouchers were the "resolution" of the incidents that occurred during their 50% off sale; I'm not certain they would issue you one in your case. Maybe? Maybe not.