United MileagePlus (Consolidated) - United Airlines Now Responsible For One-In-Three Consumer Complaints

http://consumerist.com/2012/08/united-airlines-now-responsible-for-one-in-three-consumer-complaints.html

Wow.

Anyone buying the UA statement that "so far in August" things are improving?

Wow.

Anyone buying the UA statement that "so far in August" things are improving?

With the amount of complaints over the 4 mile deal, no way.

Not one in three complaints *overall*, just within the airline industry. Certainly excessive but not quite as excessive as the headline makes it sound.

Then again I suspect that at least 30% of those consumer complaints are the same thirty flyertalkers calling over and over again ;)

Not one in three complaints *overall*, just within the airline industry.

I think we all took it as understood that the statement didn't include Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities, Stanford Financial Group, Bates Motel, or the U S Postal Service, but was restricted to airlines.

Not one in three complaints *overall*, just within the airline industry. Certainly excessive but not quite as excessive as the headline makes it sound.

Then again I suspect that at least 30% of those consumer complaints are the same thirty flyertalkers calling over and over again ;)

Wondering what post merger UA's market share is within the US...

Close to 1/3? :confused:

Complaints to whom? Directly to the DOT? Or does this include complaints to United as well?

I think we all took it as understood that the statement didn't include Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities, Stanford Financial Group, Bates Motel, or the U S Postal Service, but was restricted to airlines.

+1 thanks for the laugh :D

Wow, the Gang of 11 must have been busy flying lately! Because we all know they're the only ones with problems with COdbaUA ;)

Wondering what post merger UA's market share is within the US...

Close to 1/3? :confused:

Domestically, adding the United and Continental numbers from last year only about 1/8. (http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-domestic-market-share-of-the-top-US-airlines). But then of course there's international business on top of that which would push it up considerably, seeing as how Southwest has top position.

But then you've got to take into account that the average Southwest flyer doesn't know that the DOT is actually the place to complain to when you're annoyed with an airline. Of course, neither does the average United flyer. There's a special class of flyer, both savvy and whiny, who are presumably responsible for the vast majority of DOT complaints. The total number of complaints filed between January and June, out of millions of passenger-flights, is less than six thousand.

Anyway, from this we can conclude either that United is a worse-than-average airline, or that whiners tend to fly United. If you ask me, it's a little from column A and a little from column B.

http://consumerist.com/2012/08/united-airlines-now-responsible-for-one-in-three-consumer-complaints.html

I haven't been to this forum in quite some time. Now I remember why.

It's filled with crying and complaining like what happens with the kids and their parents who want those 10th place ribbons and trophies from the soccer tournament.

If you have flown in the past year you are among the world's most privileged people. You are most likely not facing starvation, heat exposure, frost bite, rebels storming your house to rape you, your significant other or kids.

That missed upgrade, uncomfortable seat, smelly neighbor, tired flight attendant, or van driver with a hard to understand accent isn't the end of the world. In context, it isn't even sad. It's just life.

If you have flown in the past year you are among the world's most privileged people. You are most likely not facing starvation, heat exposure, frost bite, rebels storming your house to rape you, your significant other or kids.

http://cdn.bernardgoldberg.com/wp-content/uploads/strawman.jpg


I think the OP was just posting a Consumerist article. And having access to drinking water does not invalidate not wanting United to lose luggage or cancel flights to family funerals.

I haven't been to this forum in quite some time. Now I remember why.

It's filled with crying and complaining like what happens with the kids and their parents who want those 10th place ribbons and trophies from the soccer tournament.

If you have flown in the past year you are among the world's most privileged people. You are most likely not facing starvation, heat exposure, frost bite, rebels storming your house to rape you, your significant other or kids.

That missed upgrade, uncomfortable seat, smelly neighbor, tired flight attendant, or van driver with a hard to understand accent isn't the end of the world. In context, it isn't even sad. It's just life.

Not sure what you were expecting on here. If reading about first world problems bothers you so much, maybe you should join www.rebelsstormingyourhousetorapeyoutalk.com instead.

I haven't been to this forum in quite some time. Now I remember why.

It's filled with crying and complaining like what happens with the kids and their parents who want those 10th place ribbons and trophies from the soccer tournament.

If you have flown in the past year you are among the world's most privileged people. You are most likely not facing starvation, heat exposure, frost bite, rebels storming your house to rape you, your significant other or kids.

That missed upgrade, uncomfortable seat, smelly neighbor, tired flight attendant, or van driver with a hard to understand accent isn't the end of the world. In context, it isn't even sad. It's just life.

I would agree with you that when you look at the big picture (life) that many of the complaints seem trivial. However many of us have flown for many many years and as with many things in life we have seen a steady decline in service with the airlines. Personally I believe if people don't complain and just accept dismal attitude and service as "that's just life", there will be no motivation for the airlines or any other industry to work at change.

Look at the cellphone companies or Dell and hopefully you will get my drift. If you accept substandard service, that will become the new norm. Unfortunately it seems that the bar has been lowered at United as well as many other legacy carriers.

If you have flown in the past year you are among the world's most privileged people. You are most likely not facing starvation, heat exposure, frost bite, rebels storming your house to rape you, your significant other or kids.

So you're saying this is the bar by which UA should be measured? As long as they don't do these things to us, they've done well as a company? Not sure I agree with that.

I haven't been to this forum in quite some time. Now I remember why.

It's filled with crying and complaining like what happens with the kids and their parents who want those 10th place ribbons and trophies from the soccer tournament.

If you have flown in the past year you are among the world's most privileged people. You are most likely not facing starvation, heat exposure, frost bite, rebels storming your house to rape you, your significant other or kids.

That missed upgrade, uncomfortable seat, smelly neighbor, tired flight attendant, or van driver with a hard to understand accent isn't the end of the world. In context, it isn't even sad. It's just life.

Yeah, but you can say that to anybody. You can go to the starving guy in the mud hut being raped by rebels and say "Hey, at least you're not sitting in First Class next to a bowling ball while somebody tries to feed you cold nuts in a plastic container". The grass is always greener on the other side. ;)

http://consumerist.com/2012/08/united-airlines-now-responsible-for-one-in-three-consumer-complaints.html

"And when you look at the breakdown of complaints by category, you see that reservations and ticketing is a huge problem for United.

Out of the 696 total complaints filed in this category so far in 2012, United was responsible for 296 (42.5%) of them. A year ago, the combined United and Continental reservations/ticketing complaints only accounted for 24.5% of complaints in that category."

Is anyone willing to discuss some of the really startling statistics revealed in the article, such as the above, or is this just going to be another whining about whiners thread without anyone actually reading the article?

I find it interesting that in the public statements UA has made, it has tended to be more towards trying to bring schedule integrity back in line (a good thing, of course), while essentially ignoring one of the areas that is ballooning in complaints.

Out of the 696 total complaints filed in this category so far in 2012, United was responsible for 296 (42.5%) of them. A year ago, the combined United and Continental reservations/ticketing complaints only accounted for 24.5% of complaints in that category."

Is anyone willing to discuss some of the really startling statistics revealed in the article, such as the above, or is this just going to be another whining about whiners thread without anyone actually reading the article?

I find it interesting that in the public statements UA has made, it has tended to be more towards trying to bring schedule integrity back in line (a good thing, of course), while essentially ignoring one of the areas that is ballooning in complaints.

Well - of course, it's because of SHARES. No surprise. It's regressive. It doesn't seem to be that flexible. It's slow, even for its expert users. It's the single biggest cause of the downfall of this airline the past 5 months.

But then many of us start criticizing SHARES, and inevitably the apologists say "the decision has been made, get over it, they're trying to improve it", or something similar to that.

Round and round we go.

Domestically, adding the United and Continental numbers from last year only about 1/8. (http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-domestic-market-share-of-the-top-US-airlines). But then of course there's international business on top of that which would push it up considerably, seeing as how Southwest has top position.

But then you've got to take into account that the average Southwest flyer doesn't know that the DOT is actually the place to complain to when you're annoyed with an airline. Of course, neither does the average United flyer.

I keep hearing this argued- that the DOT complaint stats are meaningless because it's such a tiny number, even though WN wins them every year. And I keep seeing WN blow past every legacy airline in independent assessments of consumer satisfaction (ACS surveyr, JD Power, you name it) at the same time.

So I disagree. I think the whole picture is meaningful. What that whole picture tells me is WN is pretty damned good at delivering what they promise to customers, and that shows up in things like DOT complaint stats and third party measures of customer satisfaction. Legacies like UA, not so much.

...at least you're not sitting in First Class next to a bowling ball while somebody tries to feed you cold nuts in a plastic container"...

It was a CRJ700. We got snack boxes...no nuts. The bowling ball stuffed the Oloves in his/her/its little holes. It was disgusting.

Well - of course, it's because of SHARES ... It's the single biggest cause of the downfall of this airline the past 5 months.

While SHARES has its problems, here's an interesting metric:

Overall complaints by month:

February: 132
March: 260
April: 289
May: 291
June: 585

Source: United fliers voice their dismay (http://www.chron.com/business/article/United-fliers-voice-their-dismay-3777017.php)

SMI/J has to go. Can we complain about that too? It all starts there. As a 1K I've been tempted to jumpship many times in the last few months. Hoping to see better days soon.

I just got this in email 5 minutes ago:

The first paragraph is quite telling!!!

Thank you for contacting United Airlines Customer Care Department. We
are currently experiencing a high volume of emails and I offer my
apology for the delayed response. I have been asked to respond on behalf
of our operating officers.

Please accept my apologies for your unpleasant and frustrating travel
experience.

Although seat assignments are not guaranteed, we do our best to
accommodate individual seat requests. Unforeseen operational changes,
such as aircraft substitutions, can occur at any time due to maintenance
and unexpected schedule adjustments. When customers are transferred to a
different aircraft, the system attempts to reassign seats as close to
the original seats as possible.

Mr. xxxxx, as a Premier 1K member, your business is very important
to United. We look forward to welcoming you onboard again soon and we
will work to ensure that your future United experiences are satisfactory
in every respect.

Regards,

xxxx xxxxxx
Corporate Customer Care

It was a CRJ700. We got snack boxes...no nuts. The bowling ball stuffed the Oloves in his/her/its little holes. It was disgusting.

Is it wrong that I'm a little turned on right now?

I haven't been to this forum in quite some time. Now I remember why.

It's filled with crying and complaining like what happens with the kids and their parents who want those 10th place ribbons and trophies from the soccer tournament.

If you have flown in the past year you are among the world's most privileged people. You are most likely not facing starvation, heat exposure, frost bite, rebels storming your house to rape you, your significant other or kids.

That missed upgrade, uncomfortable seat, smelly neighbor, tired flight attendant, or van driver with a hard to understand accent isn't the end of the world. In context, it isn't even sad. It's just life.

What an asinine post. This is the equivalent of "if you are given croissants to eat everyday, you are better than the millions of starving people, so you should be grateful. Never mind that you'd be sick to death of eating croissants everyday."

We live in a market economy. That means we have the right to complain when what we purchase is below our expectations. Just because you are content with mediocrity doesn't mean others have to stoop to your low standards.

In only its second page, thus far this thread already has one of the most asinine [thank you, Werckmeister, for the correct term to us] posts I've ever seen on FT, as well as several of the funniest. Kudos all around for an entertaining near-end of the workday. :D

Well - of course, it's because of SHARES. No surprise. It's regressive. It doesn't seem to be that flexible. It's slow, even for its expert users. It's the single biggest cause of the downfall of this airline the past 5 months.

But then many of us start criticizing SHARES, and inevitably the apologists say "the decision has been made, get over it, they're trying to improve it", or something similar to that.

Round and round we go.

It's a combination of SHARES and the anti-customer policies that SHARES has allowed the regime to implement. In addition to the bugs and glitches and failures of SHARES, and in addition to the fact that SHARES turns a 2 second task into a 45 minute task, and in addition to the fact that SHARES won't clear a UG that should be cleared, there is also the fact that SHARES allows CO to target TOD offers to certain flyers while 1K's sit on the UG list and can't clear, and that's a policy decision supported by SHARES.

I keep hearing this argued- that the DOT complaint stats are meaningless because it's such a tiny number, even though WN wins them every year. And I keep seeing WN blow past every legacy airline in independent assessments of consumer satisfaction (ACS surveyr, JD Power, you name it) at the same time.

So I disagree. I think the whole picture is meaningful. What that whole picture tells me is WN is pretty damned good at delivering what they promise to customers, and that shows up in things like DOT complaint stats and third party measures of customer satisfaction. Legacies like UA, not so much.

^

It's a combination of SHARES and the anti-customer policies that SHARES has allowed the regime to implement. In addition to the bugs and glitches and failures of SHARES, and in addition to the fact that SHARES turns a 2 second task into a 45 minute task, and in addition to the fact that SHARES won't clear a UG that should be cleared, there is also the fact that SHARES allows CO to target TOD offers to certain flyers while 1K's sit on the UG list and can't clear, and that's a policy decision supported by SHARES.

Thats a lot of SHARES. You have me beat. I thought I was the worst offender.

Speaking of that, anyone see the articles about what Meg is doing at HP? At the stroke of a pen she will slice and dice the low margin information technology outsourcing, and either finally solve the UA SHARES problem by leaving them with no system, or at best, UA will no longer be getting this service for whatever "low cost" they think they are getting. Should get interesting real soon. SHARES is not in HP's future.

I don't know whether to laugh, cry or both

I haven't been to this forum in quite some time. Now I remember why.

It's filled with crying and complaining like what happens with the kids and their parents who want those 10th place ribbons and trophies from the soccer tournament.

If you have flown in the past year you are among the world's most privileged people. You are most likely not facing starvation, heat exposure, frost bite, rebels storming your house to rape you, your significant other or kids.

That missed upgrade, uncomfortable seat, smelly neighbor, tired flight attendant, or van driver with a hard to understand accent isn't the end of the world. In context, it isn't even sad. It's just life.

+100

It is often so easy to forget the real problems while focusing on one's own small world. That said, even within the world of commercial air travel consumers we should remember that there is a difference between being constructive and simply complaining. I read FT because there is sometimes information which I can use, but one has to wade through a great deal of useless venting and complaining - indeed, whining - to find it.

There is so much whining in this forum, I'm starting to feel sorry for SMI/J's assistants -- I am quite certain that he doesn't deal with customers and their complaints himself.

Reading complaints about the order in which food is served on airplanes, repetitive complaints about an IT system, complaints about a specific flight on a specific date being late or cancelled, complaints about specific unavailability of UGs, and complaints about equipment swaps, etc are useless to me - and I suspect to all of us.

What I would like to know are things like cancellation rates by airport, by route, by aircraft type, by day of week, by time of day, etc. Similarly, information on late arrivals on the same metrics would be helpful. Clearly these are beyond the ability of FT to analyze. So, why do I read FT? I read in order to gain what insight can be had to new policies, to changes in the route network, to read about the occasionally really interesting deviation in operations (UA pax stuck in PVG for days, AA's diversion to Eareckson Air Station on Shemya, etc.)

Complaining within FT about specific things serves no purpose beyond the emotional need to vent or ego. Yet, everyday one must read through what really amounts to whining.

Many complaints are legitimate - others are not. Cancellations, lateness, and rude employees, preferential or discriminatory treatment if passengers (from outright sexism and racism to giving upgrades out of policy) are good things to complain about - to the airline and DOT.

But those who dislike changes to FF benefits, IFE options, uniforms or paint jobs, overall UG availability, equipment assignments, etc. might complain to the airline, but should realize that the real choices are either acceptance or choosing other travel options (different airline, different mode of travel, or not travelling). Simply venting, whining, and finger pointing about such things don't serve real purpose and surely don't provide any useful information to the traveler.

P.S. Another party to complain to is the Congress and the Administration for allow such airline consolidation to take place. Now, not only are banks to large to fail, so are airlines.

For those who are complaining about ft posts here is a suggestion -- don't read them.

I asked about an issue via the online tool in Jan. Got a response 4 weeks ago. I see it as an improvement. :cool:

If pissed off UA rebel crews start storming my house at night you're damn right I'm going to complain. Shares seems to have been assaulting me for the last 5 months as it is. :D

+100

It is often so easy to forget the real problems while focusing on one's own small world. That said, even within the world of commercial air travel consumers we should remember that there is a difference between being constructive and simply complaining. I read FT because there is sometimes information which I can use, but one has to wade through a great deal of useless venting and complaining - indeed, whining - to find it.

There is so much whining in this forum, I'm starting to feel sorry for SMI/J's assistants -- I am quite certain that he doesn't deal with customers and their complaints himself.

Reading complaints about the order in which food is served on airplanes, repetitive complaints about an IT system, complaints about a specific flight on a specific date being late or cancelled, complaints about specific unavailability of UGs, and complaints about equipment swaps, etc are useless to me - and I suspect to all of us.

What I would like to know are things like cancellation rates by airport, by route, by aircraft type, by day of week, by time of day, etc. Similarly, information on late arrivals on the same metrics would be helpful. Clearly these are beyond the ability of FT to analyze. So, why do I read FT? I read in order to gain what insight can be had to new policies, to changes in the route network, to read about the occasionally really interesting deviation in operations (UA pax stuck in PVG for days, AA's diversion to Eareckson Air Station on Shemya, etc.)

Complaining within FT about specific things serves no purpose beyond the emotional need to vent or ego. Yet, everyday one must read through what really amounts to whining.

Many complaints are legitimate - others are not. Cancellations, lateness, and rude employees, preferential or discriminatory treatment if passengers (from outright sexism and racism to giving upgrades out of policy) are good things to complain about - to the airline and DOT.

But those who dislike changes to FF benefits, IFE options, uniforms or paint jobs, overall UG availability, equipment assignments, etc. might complain to the airline, but should realize that the real choices are either acceptance or choosing other travel options (different airline, different mode of travel, or not travelling). Simply venting, whining, and finger pointing about such things don't serve real purpose and surely don't provide any useful information to the traveler.

P.S. Another party to complain to is the Congress and the Administration for allow such airline consolidation to take place. Now, not only are banks to large to fail, so are airlines.

Some of what you say is accurate. Some is not. Many of us would want to try and treat the disease and not just live with the symptoms. Our voices do matter- individually or collectively. No different than voting as a Shareholder or in a Government election. This IS a great medium to voice/vote our opinion and feelings.

As someone else suggested in another thread today, the choice is all of ours whether to read a certain thread. The OP's and Mod's do a great job of making sure the Topic Headings are fairly accurate/concise. So click on Subjects that are appropriate for you. They are fairly self explanatory.

But I do have a proposal to help with the whining, and I know I am a major offender as it pertains to the SHARES system. I've got one week left before I move all of my company's travel to other carriers. And since I have been flying United Airlines since SMI/J was spitting up Mothers milk, I am not going to go down without a fight. I will do everything within my power to affect change. So instead of complaining on here, complaining to the DOT or responding to Blogs and Business articles, I have and will be wanting to make sure the BOD feels the same pain I am feeling as a result of what I perceive to be gross mismanagement and the absence of Fiduciary responsibility. Company's should not be playgrounds for the uninitiated.

To that end, I recommend everyone let the entire Board of Directors know how you are feeling, why you are feeling that way and what you feel could be a resolution. Whether a Shareholder, Customer or even and Employee, you have a right to voice/vote your opinion.

All 13 Board members can be reached at UALBoard@united.com.

If you have flown in the past year you are among the world's most privileged people. You are most likely not facing starvation, heat exposure, frost bite, rebels storming your house to rape you, your significant other or kids.


I think all of those points could be argued in one thread or another in this forum:

1. Have you had the cold chicken plate that gets served on everything but a transcon?

2. There was a thread about the RJ that flew with it's APU and thus couldn't run the AC.

3. Invert #2 for winter

4. OK, you might win that one.

So you're saying this is the bar by which UA should be measured? As long as they don't do these things to us, they've done well as a company? Not sure I agree with that.

I am sure I disagree 100%

To that end, I recommend everyone let the entire Board of Directors know how you are feeling, why you are feeling that way and what you feel could be a resolution. Whether a Shareholder, Customer or even and Employee, you have a right to voice/vote your opinion.

All 13 Board members can be reached at UALBoard@united.com.

Good luck with that. I wrote to the Chairman, Lead Director, and Smisek in April and have had no response.

For that matter, no response to emails to GS either, which is why I will likely be 1K next year, am taking my third Virgin Atlanic trip tomorrow, and have just become Silver at VX.

[QUOTE=UA-NYC;19097521]................But then many of us start criticizing SHARES, and inevitably the apologists say "the decision has been made, get over it, they're trying to improve it", or something similar to that.
.................[QUOTE]

============================

That's exactly what an ex-CO employee said to me the other day....guess she "told" me.

I haven't been to this forum in quite some time. Now I remember why.

It's filled with crying and complaining like what happens with the kids and their parents who want those 10th place ribbons and trophies from the soccer tournament.

If you have flown in the past year you are among the world's most privileged people. You are most likely not facing starvation, heat exposure, frost bite, rebels storming your house to rape you, your significant other or kids.

That missed upgrade, uncomfortable seat, smelly neighbor, tired flight attendant, or van driver with a hard to understand accent isn't the end of the world. In context, it isn't even sad. It's just life.

One of my friends travels almost 100% for his job, which he works about six - eight months of the year. He and his boss are kayakers, generally flying on the cheapest fare.

With the rest of his time, he travels to a remote area of Thailand where he has founded an orphanage and also is involved with a project to bring clean water and better irrigation to the area. They aren't well funded, and he's made significant sacrifices in his personal life to help the disadvantaged.

He almost always flies on the cheapest international fare. (No paid or complimentary upgrades to biz here.) But he does have one rule: he won't fly United internationally. He'll take double or triple connections on Air Asia, sure. 24 hour layovers or delays in random Asian cities don't phase him. But United? No thanks.

I wrote to the Chairman, Lead Director, and Smisek in April and have had no response.


Same here. My guess is that they haven't gotten to that corner of the 1 million square foot warehouse that holds all the customer letters they have received since March.

I haven't been to this forum in quite some time. Now I remember why.

It's filled with crying and complaining like what happens with the kids and their parents who want those 10th place ribbons and trophies from the soccer tournament.

If you have flown in the past year you are among the world's most privileged people. You are most likely not facing starvation, heat exposure, frost bite, rebels storming your house to rape you, your significant other or kids.

That missed upgrade, uncomfortable seat, smelly neighbor, tired flight attendant, or van driver with a hard to understand accent isn't the end of the world. In context, it isn't even sad. It's just life.

While I am of generally liberal temperment, this view "suffer, others are worse off" misses the point that the United States if not the USSR, we don't have one airline, and we have choices.

I guess we could tell people to shut up until they go postal, but that is not the american way. We express our views (and the internet is a powerful tool for that) as do folks in countries that are not so free...

United is a business. If its customers are upset, then that is a powerful signal. I guess everyone could just leave (and some folks have just left). The folks who are taking the time to complain are those who for one reason or another feel or felt invested in United. I wise company would listen to them, and be glad that it is getting the feedback.

If you have flown in the past year you are among the world's most privileged people. You are most likely not facing starvation, heat exposure, frost bite, rebels storming your house to rape you, your significant other or kids.

Thanks for the perspective, tornado. You've reminded me that so far this year on UA I am at 100% for upgrades to not being raped, robbed, maimed, or killed. #LittleThingsImThankfulFor

They flew something like six and a half million people, five hundred and eighty five complained about something.

It's such an insignificant number, I'm sure they don't even care.

It's silly that people keep focusing on the number of complaints as meaning anything. It doesn't. Should the rants from people who complained because United isn't flying them to China for four miles (especially those who filed multiple complaints) raise the numbers for July, it will show how silly the reporting of a few hundred complaints against millions of passengers is.

They flew something like six and a half million people, five hundred and eighty five complained about something.


five hundred and eighty five complained to the DOT. Only United knows how many complained directly to them, and no one knows how many complained on Facebook or via tweets to the United account, etc. (well maybe a search could tell on twitter).

Yes that is an insignificant number which is why it is valid to compare against the other airlines. I would imagine the majority of the public does not know you can file a complaint with the DOT, those who do may be in the new 1%.

I think all of those points could be argued in one thread or another in this forum:

1. Have you had the cold chicken plate that gets served on everything but a transcon?

2. There was a thread about the RJ that flew with it's APU and thus couldn't run the AC.

3. Invert #2 for winter

4. OK, you might win that one.

Don't worry: TSA and 'enhanced patdown' cover #4 :p

It's silly that people keep focusing on the number of complaints as meaning anything. It doesn't.

Of course, you're right, the number is insignificant. It's the trending that's important. Around 4x as many complaints in June as in February, and climbing.

But then, I'm sure the C-suite just looks upon the complainers as humorless sourpusses. :rolleyes:

For those who are complaining about ft posts here is a suggestion -- don't read them.
But then how could they demonstrate their moral superiority?