United MileagePlus (Consolidated) - Poll suggestion- e500s vs UDU

Not looking for a discussion, lots of that in many different threads, enough so that I get a feeling, perhaps incorrectly, that there are very few that think UDU was a good thing. But could be a silent majority that love them.

Isn't there a way for FT to have a poll? I'd like to see a simple question of whether people here prefer the old way, e500s for domestic upgrades, vs the current system of UDUs. The assumptions would be that e500s would be doled out in a similar manner to the past, with similar redemption possibilities. Vs what we have now.

Again, just a poll, not looking to start a 3-mile-long thread about the virtues of one vs another. But guess it's OK to debate whether a poll makes sense. ;)

(And to the mods- if there's no such thing as a user-suggested poll, feel free to delete this outright or just add it to one of a zillion "UA ain't what it used to be" threads)

Thanks-

A yes for e 500's. I always loved choosing where and when I wanted to fly first.

As a 2P and 1P in the good old days, I could occasionally count on F. Between E+ and the occasional F, this made me pursue Silver for spouse and I for almost a decade.When e500 went away, then at least a 2P could enjoy E+. When E+ at ticketing went away, then Silver meant nothing to me.

Now we fly a combination of paid Y and paid F on the most convenient airlines, which so far haven't been UA. These two things have cost UA at least $10k in revenue from my family (personal spending) during the past 12 months that have now gone to HA, Delta, and US Air. Without question, all the these recent flights on other carriers would have been UA in the past to achieve 2P, if not 1P.

I barely earned 2p the last year that the e500s were around, and am completely unaware of how they work.

I barely earned 2p the last year that the e500s were around, and am completely unaware of how they work.

Basically you would get 4 e500's per 10K miles. If I remember correct. A flight from ORD-DTW, would take 1 e500. ORD-LAS was 3 e500's. Etc.. They still had the upgrade window, which always cleared for me as a 1K. You were able to pick when you wanted to sit in first. I didn't use them for the short runs, mostly, ord-las,lax,sfo,sea,pdx,hnl. You also got 2 Regionals every quarter. Total of 8 for 1k's. So, if you wanted to sit in first, it was almost a guarantee.

FYI, lot's of 1k's in the old days, had no clue what these were, and never used them. This made upgrading for everyone much easier. Silvers, Executives, 1K's had great success.

...
FYI, lot's of 1k's in the old days, had no clue what these were, and never used them. This made upgrading for everyone much easier. Silvers, Executives, 1K's had great success.

And that is why UDU provides the airline with a better control of the customer experience.

If people paying top dollar frequently got no benefit because they didn't know how to use the e500s, or just didn't have the time to request them, then they weren't seeing the full value of what they paid for, or the reason for being elite. You can imagine how unhelpful it is for an airline to hear from a top customer, "I paid full fare for a ticket, and didn't even get any benefits or upgrade!", only because they didn't know how to operate the system.

With UDUs, UA is sure that the customers who pay a lot get what they "should" get, regardless of whether they know how to work the system.

Of course, that means that it's not as good for lower tiers who used to benefit. But that's the way it's going these days anyway.

As a 1k i far preferred e500s because they gave me a modicum of control over the process

CPU (fka UDU).....most of my routes are leisure and I'm batting 100% on these.

On business heavy routes, I am running 50%. Probably could raise that up to 85+% if I was more savvy in applying RPU.

Basically you would get 4 e500's per 10K miles. If I remember correct. A flight from ORD-DTW, would take 1 e500. ORD-LAS was 3 e500's. Etc.. They still had the upgrade window, which always cleared for me as a 1K. You were able to pick when you wanted to sit in first. I didn't use them for the short runs, mostly, ord-las,lax,sfo,sea,pdx,hnl. You also got 2 Regionals every quarter. Total of 8 for 1k's. So, if you wanted to sit in first, it was almost a guarantee.

FYI, lot's of 1k's in the old days, had no clue what these were, and never used them. This made upgrading for everyone much easier. Silvers, Executives, 1K's had great success.

Sounds good in theory, but how did it work in practice? (I too am new here). Most of my miles are international, so if I earned 2000 miles in F for every 10000 miles I flew then I'd be able to do most of my domestic flying in F. So it sounds good to me, even if I prefer the *idea* of getting something for free which is what UDU feels like.

But surely everyone would save them up for trans-cons and nobody would want to burn them on short jaunts. As a 1P surely I'd still find myself in a situation where I couldn't clear into F for a SFO-EWR even if I was willing to fork over five e500s. I'd either wind up burning them on short jaunts like SFO-LAX where F doesn't matter, or I'd wind up with an ever-increasing stack of impossible-to-use upgrades.

The UDU scheme has been an failure, in my opinion.

All it has accomplished is to set unreasonable expectations of an upgrade for the average flyer. Conversely, when one has to "pay" for something, whether by using miles, an E500 cert, or actually buying the F seat, it will represent something of value.

My vote is to bring back the E500 system.

51/51 last year, 42/48 this year... I'll stick with CPU :)

And that is why UDU provides the airline with a better control of the customer experience.

If people paying top dollar frequently got no benefit because they didn't know how to use the e500s, or just didn't have the time to request them, then they weren't seeing the full value of what they paid for, or the reason for being elite. You can imagine how unhelpful it is for an airline to hear from a top customer, "I paid full fare for a ticket, and didn't even get any benefits or upgrade!", only because they didn't know how to operate the system.

With UDUs, UA is sure that the customers who pay a lot get what they "should" get, regardless of whether they know how to work the system.

Of course, that means that it's not as good for lower tiers who used to benefit. But that's the way it's going these days anyway.

Wrong. Now Elites, who never knew about the 500's are mad because UA is selling upgrades for 99.00 and leaving them in the back. Now they expect the upgrade and if they don't get it they are mad. In theory, yes it's great, but people expect the ugprade. I've seen it!

51/51 last year, 41/48 this year... I'll stick with CPU :)

Wow. Congrats

Wrong. Now Elites, who never knew about the 500's are mad because UA is selling upgrades for 99.00 and leaving them in the back. Now they expect the upgrade and if they don't get it they are mad. In theory, yes it's great, but people expect the ugprade. I've seen it!

One can expect something in both situations and still be mad that buy-ups are being sold. Has nothing to do with e500s vs CPU.

Then again, there were significantly less elites to compete with for upgrades during the days of the e500s. I'd bet the upgrade rate will still be abysmal for many. Also, if they go back to e500, I am willing to wager that you won't get the 2 RPUs per quarter like you did in the past. There were no P fares in the past either, YBM-UPs, programming in place that tells people the difference between their currently booked fare and the fare that books you in F, or instant upgrades for government YCA fares. You can't use your experience from a few years ago to establish an idea of what it would be like now.

Let's say if we used the e500s to replace all of the CPUs I got this year [22 of them]... I will need 67 e500s. This does not count the flights where my upgrade did not clear [6 of them, but two due to volunteering], single cabin flights, or when I used an RPU [I got 6 RPU instruments for this year]. This also does not include any future travel I have booked.

No thanks. Leave my CPUs alone.

Definitely CPU (or UDU). What a breeze to get all of those upgrades automatically without calling to apply any instruments! Save me many many hours to deal with the agents on the phone. In addition no balance tracking is needed anymore.

Wow. Congrats

Full listing:

2010: 64/68
2011: 51/51
2012: 42/48 (two of which were glitches, one of which the GA cleared the list out of order)

Missed upgrades have been:
SFO-SEA A319 Thursday evening
SEA-LAX CR7 Monday morning
SEA-LAX CR7 Monday morning
DEN-IAH A319 Saturday mid-day
SEA-IAH 739 Never added to upgrade list glitch
SEA-IAH 753 Never added to upgrade list glitch
CLE-EWR 737 Saturday mid-day (SPSS day)
EWR-SEA 753 UG list cleared out of order (SPSS day)
LAS-SFO 738 Thursday evening
BZN-DEN CR7 Monday evening (fully sold out F cabin)

51/51 last year, 42/48 this year... I'll stick with CPU :)When choosing your flights, do you let seat availability enter into it, or do you choose by schedule alone? Reason I ask is because I will intentionally avoid a flight where I can't get an exit row, or at least an aisle seat in E+. Doing so means that I've also got a better shot at an upgrade, because a flight with those seats available at booking is also likely to have fewer elites on it. Doesn't help much with SFO-ORD trips, but makes a big difference elsewhere (and I noticed you have a number of up & down the west coast flights, which tend to be easy upgrades anyway... never mind that the reason I know about those flights is because they're on your list of "missed" upgrades).

When choosing your flights, do you let seat availability enter into it, or do you choose by schedule alone? Reason I ask is because I will intentionally avoid a flight where I can't get an exit row, or at least an aisle seat in E+. Doing so means that I've also got a better shot at an upgrade, because a flight with those seats available at booking is also likely to have fewer elites on it. Doesn't help much with SFO-ORD trips, but makes a big difference elsewhere (and I noticed you have a number of up & down the west coast flights, which tend to be easy upgrades anyway... never mind that the reason I know about those flights is because they're on your list of "missed" upgrades).

Absolutely! If I have a choice between a 5:30am SEA-SFO on a 757 or a 6:30am on an A319, I'll often choose the 5:30am. I know that may seem petty for such a short flight but I've gotta keep my metrics high ;)

That will also apply to SEA-ORD flights though, or ORD-SFO... I will typically seek out a 757 over a 767 due to likelihood of upgrade (even if I don't get the lie-flat, I'd rather have 757 F over 767 E+).

And FWIW, if you look at my FlightMemory... they aren't all West Coast, lots of transcons in there as well (though 2010 was SEA-LAX heavy). :)

Absolutely! If I have a choice between a 5:30am SEA-SFO on a 757 or a 6:30am on an A319, I'll often choose the 5:30am. I know that may seem petty for such a short flight but I've gotta keep my metrics high ;)

That will also apply to SEA-ORD flights though, or ORD-SFO... I will typically seek out a 757 over a 767 due to likelihood of upgrade (even if I don't get the lie-flat, I'd rather have 757 F over 767 E+).

And FWIW, if you look at my FlightMemory... they aren't all West Coast, lots of transcons in there as well (though 2010 was SEA-LAX heavy). :)You and I are cut from similar cloth except... that 5:30am thing. I am not a morning person. If I had to get up early enough to catch a flight leaving prior to 8:30am, I'd be stressed-out enough about not getting sleep the night before that it would keep me from sleeping. Hate that!
5:30 AM flights are not morning people flights, they're night people flights. You stay up late to make them, not get up early.One of my scariest memories from college days was a term paper that had me working late and noticing the sun was coming up. Seriously did a number on me!

Regarding 757 vs 319 or 320, if I can snag an aisle or window in row 7 (used to be row 6), that will often trump a 757 with better possibility of an upgrade. Great, I'm leading my own thread OT.

I really liked e500s because they gave you a sense of control, and allowed market forces to come into play. People got upgrades because a particular flight was important to them, and skipped them on those that weren't (allowing someone else to "bid" on them for whom it did matter). I've had more upgrades with UDU, er, whatever it is now, but they're somewhat random and it takes away from F being special in some strange way.

But does anyone know what it takes to have an official FT poll on this? Would it be worthwhile? Thanks-

You and I are cut from similar cloth except... that 5:30am thing. I am not a morning person.

5:30 AM flights are not morning people flights, they're night people flights. You stay up late to make them, not get up early.

Definitely preferred the e500s.

No one's mentioned the original, additional, benefit of the unused certs reverting to 500 miles in your account upon expiry.

E500s. Not even close.

CPU, not even close.

I have added a poll to this thread. Feel free to v:)te above!

Xyzzy
UA forum moderator

Thanks for setting up the poll. I was around for the e500 days and have a definite opinon. I'm curious to see where the general consensus lies.

Wrong. Now Elites, who never knew about the 500's are mad because UA is selling upgrades for 99.00 and leaving them in the back. Now they expect the upgrade and if they don't get it they are mad. In theory, yes it's great, but people expect the ugprade. I've seen it!

The system of having to request upgrades doesn't make customer service sense. Puts too much burden on the customer to know and have the time to request it -- that doesn't match UA's emphasis on top customers who don't want to deal with those steps.

Careful about putting too much emphasis on expectations -- the customers' expectations might just be wrong, and UA might find it better just to remove the promise altogether if there's too much fuss! Silvers might be removed from upgrade ability if they start acting too overentitled!

Careful about putting too much emphasis on expectations -- the customers' expectations might just be wrong, and UA might find it better just to remove the promise altogether if there's too much fuss! Silvers might be removed from upgrade ability if they start acting too overentitled!

The customer's current expectations are wrong.

When choosing your flights, do you let seat availability enter into it, or do you choose by schedule alone? Reason I ask is because I will intentionally avoid a flight where I can't get an exit row, or at least an aisle seat in E+. Doing so means that I've also got a better shot at an upgrade, because a flight with those seats available at booking is also likely to have fewer elites on it. Doesn't help much with SFO-ORD trips, but makes a big difference elsewhere (and I noticed you have a number of up & down the west coast flights, which tend to be easy upgrades anyway... never mind that the reason I know about those flights is because they're on your list of "missed" upgrades).

Yes, I look at seat availability. All other things being equal -- viz. fare, approximate time and connection point -- I try to to ticket any flight where all the aisles are gone. Seldom have this problem as the nature of my work typically allows me to schedule all my travel many months out.

The system of having to request upgrades doesn't make customer service sense. Puts too much burden on the customer to know and have the time to request it -- that doesn't match UA's emphasis on top customers who don't want to deal with those steps.

Careful about putting too much emphasis on expectations -- the customers' expectations might just be wrong, and UA might find it better just to remove the promise altogether if there's too much fuss! Silvers might be removed from upgrade ability if they start acting too overentitled!

You know, I am a real air travel junkie. I monitor filghts which I'm not flying on - and neither is anyone I know. But, requesting upgrades would be an unneeded pain in the neck.

I never expect an upgrade. Didn't as a silver, don't as a plat. If one comes, fine. But if the airline can find someone to pay a few bucks for a seat, that's fine too. I see no reason that I should be entitled to something that the airline could otherwise sell.

When choosing your flights, do you let seat availability enter into it, or do you choose by schedule alone? Reason I ask is because I will intentionally avoid a flight where I can't get an exit row, or at least an aisle seat in E+. Doing so means that I've also got a better shot at an upgrade, because a flight with those seats available at booking is also likely to have fewer elites on it. Doesn't help much with SFO-ORD trips, but makes a big difference elsewhere (and I noticed you have a number of up & down the west coast flights, which tend to be easy upgrades anyway... never mind that the reason I know about those flights is because they're on your list of "missed" upgrades).

Yes, I look at seat availability. All other things being equal -- viz. fare, approximate time and connection point -- I try not to to ticket any flight where all the aisles are gone. Seldom have this problem as the nature of my work typically allows me to schedule all my travel many months out -- both domestic and overseas.

The system of having to request upgrades doesn't make customer service sense. Puts too much burden on the customer to know and have the time to request it -- that doesn't match UA's emphasis on top customers who don't want to deal with those steps.

Careful about putting too much emphasis on expectations -- the customers' expectations might just be wrong, and UA might find it better just to remove the promise altogether if there's too much fuss! Silvers might be removed from upgrade ability if they start acting too overentitled!

You know, I am a real air travel junkie. I monitor filghts which I'm not flying on - and neither is anyone I know. I arrive early at the airport in order to see other flights unload and load. But, requesting upgrades would be an unneeded pain in the neck.

I never expect an upgrade. Didn't as a silver, don't as a plat. If one comes, fine. But if the airline can find someone to pay a few bucks for a seat, that's fine too. I see no reason that I should be entitled to something that the airline could otherwise sell.

I miss e500s and would definitely take them over UDU anytime. I am more than willing to pay up to use certs on longer flights which would give UA more revenue and keep the highest status members in first class. I also liked the control e500s gave me in that I could choose to upgrade longer flights (ORD-SFO) and withdraw from upgrade consideration on routes I could care less about first class (ORD-STL).

I miss e500s and would definitely take them over UDU anytime. I am more than willing to pay up to use certs on longer flights which would give UA more revenue and keep the highest status members in first class. I also liked the control e500s gave me in that I could choose to upgrade longer flights (ORD-SFO) and withdraw from upgrade consideration on routes I could care less about first class (ORD-STL).

I think everyone feels similarly -- you want the upgrade on the longer flight and don't care about the shorter one.

What then is the argument for having to use e500s and making requests manually? If not to hope that some people don't know how to use the system, and that you'll get an upgrade because someone else didn't request it properly?

The moment UDU was announced, I posted that the switch away from e500s would be awful - my opinion certainly hasn't changed.

Personally believe the E500/UDU was pretty much a wash but UDU to the present system with YBM priority override has significantly changed the system. This is not to argue the YBM is good or bad but it has changed the dynamics.

I really don't understand the upgrade windows. As long as the priority order remains sorted by status then fare, I think upgrades should clear at the gate. Again, as long as the sorting is correct to the published policy, why does it matter if the upgrade clears 120 hours vs 120 seconds prior to departure?

... Again, as long as the sorting is correct to the published policy, why does it matter if the upgrade clears 120 hours vs 120 seconds prior to departure?
uncertainty can be an issue -- and until the upgrades actually clears, it may or may.
-- such as a meal flight should I eat / grab food or depend on onboard F offering?
-- will I have space to be able to us a laptop? Available laptop power?

Can you imagine the problems that we would encounter if the crack IT department was asked to program the implementation of the e-500 system (I presume under shares). :(

Two words......Absolute Disaster!

Back when I was a 3P (those were the days :p), I cleared every upgrade with e500s, including hub-hub on A320s. Even got the occasional transcon, which was pretty nice, given how low on the list 3P was. These were also the days that a flight would go out with open seats in F, or nobody on the upgrade list.

I became 2P when UDU came into play, and never got an upgrade, save for MCI-DEN or MCI-ORD on the 757. Of course, as my status rose to 1K the same year, I got UDU 99% of the time. Flights did go out with tons of elites on the list, but the process worked well.

Now that CO is in town, I think UDU has become diluted with all of the TOD cr@p, and YBM upgrades that are offered. I still think it has some merit, although my upgrade rate has dropped at least 20% since 3/3. No surprise :rolleyes:

If I had to choose, I would go with a method like AA. UDU for GS/1K, and e500s for 2P/1P. Perhaps 6 per 10K to compensate for the change..

I never missed an e-500 upgrade but then again have never missed a UDU (although these are very infrequent for me) either so little difference here

What I do miss is that the e-500's turned into RDM's upon expiry representing a 20% RDM bonus

Jeff

I will say e500 will make it fair for everyone.

No one's mentioned the original, additional, benefit of the unused certs reverting to 500 miles in your account upon expiry.

In the grand scheme of things for me, 500 miles is a joke. I'd rather sacrifice 500 miles and fly in F on IAD-PIT. I have a boatload of miles, and if I want 500 more, I'll just spend a night at a Hilton.

I miss e500s and would definitely take them over UDU anytime. I am more than willing to pay up to use certs on longer flights which would give UA more revenue and keep the highest status members in first class. I also liked the control e500s gave me in that I could choose to upgrade longer flights (ORD-SFO) and withdraw from upgrade consideration on routes I could care less about first class (ORD-STL).

Not really... YBM will stick, UA's dynamic F monetization program will tell the customer the market value difference between his/her current booked fare class and the lowest F/upgradeable fare, and more competition on the longer hauls will result in more elites being stuck in Y than F. The number of elites flying on certain routes will make e500s impossible to clear. I will bet that elites who flies on ORD-SFO on regular business travel time will only clear 30-40% of the time. Only slightly, very slightly, better than CPU.

I will say e500 will make it fair for everyone.

The e500 program will work against top tier or high revenue elites.

Besides the subjective opinions, people FAIL to recognize the following facts:

1. There is a boatload more elites
2. More sophisticated upgrade scheme is in place [YBM, Gov fares, fare differential upsells, etc]
3. Reduced F capcity

sUA elites always commented how often they cleared under the UDU program [95%+ for 1Ks], which seems to be about the same figure for the e500s. Now, under the new program many are complaining that their upgrade rate has dropped significantly. With historical experience [pre YBM, gov't, etc], based on anecdotal comments posted here, we can determine in the sUA days the upgrade rates were similar to the rate from the e500 days. Therefore, the drop in upgrades have less to do with the elite program, but more to do with the more sophisticated F cabin monetization program.

What people fail to see here is that e500 WILL GUARANTEE a lower % of time one flies in the F cabin and the fact the upgrade dynamics are VERY different nowadays as compared to the PMUA days. e500s is not the answer. Unless you want to shoot yourself in the foot.

Basically you would get 4 e500's per 10K miles. If I remember correct. A flight from ORD-DTW, would take 1 e500. ORD-LAS was 3 e500's. Etc.. They still had the upgrade window, which always cleared for me as a 1K. You were able to pick when you wanted to sit in first. I didn't use them for the short runs, mostly, ord-las,lax,sfo,sea,pdx,hnl. You also got 2 Regionals every quarter. Total of 8 for 1k's. So, if you wanted to sit in first, it was almost a guarantee.

FYI, lot's of 1k's in the old days, had no clue what these were, and never used them. This made upgrading for everyone much easier. Silvers, Executives, 1K's had great success.

Actually, many of us knew what they were because we could turn them in for miles. I would wait till I had 20 E500's & exchange that for 10,000 miles. They then put a stop towards allowing this (I don't remember when) but the old UA (who actually read complaints from 1K's) changed back the rules and said current 1K's are "Grandfathered" in & would still be allowed to turn E500's in for miles but new 1K's could not. These were great for everyone cuz as you said, as a silver or gold, you could actually confirm an upgrade and for a 1K, we would earn at least 40 of these a year (worth 20,000 miles)

In the grand scheme of things for me, 500 miles is a joke. I'd rather sacrifice 500 miles and fly in F on IAD-PIT. I have a boatload of miles, and if I want 500 more, I'll just spend a night at a Hilton.


One cert of 500 miles is indeed a joke.

But for someone who flies 100K internationally, rendering these useless as upgrade certs, that adds up to an extra 20K/ year in RDMs. That my friend is not so much of a joke.

One cert of 500 miles is indeed a joke.

But for someone who flies 100K internationally, rendering these useless as upgrade certs, that adds up to an extra 20K/ year in RDMs. That my friend is not so much of a joke.

How did you beat me to this :confused::)

How did you beat me to this :confused::)

Allow me this one. ;)

One cert of 500 miles is indeed a joke.

But for someone who flies 100K internationally, rendering these useless as upgrade certs, that adds up to an extra 20K/ year in RDMs. That my friend is not so much of a joke.

And for someone who's stuck on segments of about 600 miles each, they're horrible. I fly only about 55k miles a year, but average over 90 segments.

Remember, not everyone flies transcons, midcons or the like. There's a few of us that are based close to where we travel.

Personally believe the E500/UDU was pretty much a wash but UDU to the present system with YBM priority override has significantly changed the system. This is not to argue the YBM is good or bad but it has changed the dynamics.

I believe the prioritization of instruments has significantly changed the system.. so a 2P on miles now trumps a 1K's CPU.

And for someone who's stuck on segments of about 600 miles each, they're horrible. I fly only about 55k miles a year, but average over 90 segments.

Remember, not everyone flies transcons, midcons or the like. There's a few of us that are based close to where we travel.

Me toobut as others have said, you convert them into miles. Those were the days.

The huge fault with UDUs is the fact that Fare Class trumps Loyalty (Elite status).:mad:

And that is why UDU provides the airline with a better control of the customer experience.

If people paying top dollar frequently got no benefit because they didn't know how to use the e500s, or just didn't have the time to request them, then they weren't seeing the full value of what they paid for, or the reason for being elite. You can imagine how unhelpful it is for an airline to hear from a top customer, "I paid full fare for a ticket, and didn't even get any benefits or upgrade!", only because they didn't know how to operate the system.

With UDUs, UA is sure that the customers who pay a lot get what they "should" get, regardless of whether they know how to work the system.

Of course, that means that it's not as good for lower tiers who used to benefit. But that's the way it's going these days anyway.

If you don't know the system then it shouldn't be a surprise that there are no benefits, however.

EUA, all the way.

The huge fault with UDUs is the fact that Fare Class trumps Loyalty (Elite status).:mad:

Only for YB fares - not the most dramatic impact (except maybe ex-WAS)

I continue to believe the rise of TODs are the single biggest contributor to lowered upgrade rates

The system of having to request upgrades doesn't make customer service sense. Puts too much burden on the customer to know and have the time to request it -- that doesn't match UA's emphasis on top customers who don't want to deal with those steps.

Careful about putting too much emphasis on expectations -- the customers' expectations might just be wrong, and UA might find it better just to remove the promise altogether if there's too much fuss! Silvers might be removed from upgrade ability if they start acting too overentitled!

On AA it is that way but I haven't met any EXPs that don't know they are entitled to UGs.

Me toobut as others have said, you convert them into miles. Those were the days.

And I'd rather sit in front. E+ isn't bad on a CR7, but its tough to beat 2A. It would still be unbalanced based on the 6 per 10k miles flown, those of us who are segment fliers it isn't particularly enticing. Since it seems that those of you who want e500s wouldn't use them on shorter flights, but I wouldn't really earn enough to use them on the longer flights. Heck I'm still sitting on two RPUs for this year.

If you don't know the system then it shouldn't be a surprise that there are no benefits, however.

No, people (even hard core elite fliers) can clearly sense when they're paying top $ for a ticket and don't get anything more than a coach seat way in the back. This is what UA is trying to combat.

No one in this thread has pointed out a reason for supporting the e500s system other than: you have a better chance because top elites forget or don't know how to use the system, so you can work it better than they do.

That is not a really strong argument to the airline I have to say.

Actually, many of us knew what they were because we could turn them in for miles. I would wait till I had 20 E500's & exchange that for 10,000 miles. They then put a stop towards allowing this (I don't remember when) but the old UA (who actually read complaints from 1K's) changed back the rules and said current 1K's are "Grandfathered" in & would still be allowed to turn E500's in for miles but new 1K's could not. ...if the e500 program was restored, for the above reasons, very doubtful in my mind the conversion to RDMs would happen. How would the pmCO folks get working into this?

For numberous reason e500s are not going happen especially with RDM conversion.

One cert of 500 miles is indeed a joke.

But for someone who flies 100K internationally, rendering these useless as upgrade certs, that adds up to an extra 20K/ year in RDMs. That my friend is not so much of a joke.

Makes sense, but honestly, if UA goes back to the e500s, there are no guarantees they will let you convert those into miles. Is it worth giving up the CPU program with the risk they might reduce the number of e500s they hand out [8x per 25K], might not be convertible into miles, etc?

The UDU scheme has been an failure, in my opinion.

All it has accomplished is to set unreasonable expectations of an upgrade for the average flyer. Conversely, when one has to "pay" for something, whether by using miles, an E500 cert, or actually buying the F seat, it will represent something of value.

My vote is to bring back the E500 system.Agreed ^ and another vote for e-500's as the current UDU system (post 3/3) has been imho a cluster-"you know what". Prior to 3/3, PMUA's UDU system imho worked quite well but in the post 3/3/ SCARES SHARES era, it has been a disaster thanks to Tod'$ screwing over elites.

On E500s could you upgrade a friend/family member??? and could you buy them (if needed) ??

Based on my current travel patterns I prefer UDU's. YMMV.


SunLover

Unfort, the issue of e500s vs CPUs is now muddled with the TOD offers not being made to all pax. The following perspective comes from a life-long 1K (started back in 1994). I prefer e500s for a few reasons:

1. Fewer 1Ks will be upgrading, thereby increasing my own chances (and those of lower levels) for flights I want.
2. generate $ from 1Ks that want to UPG on each/every flight
3. TOD offers are still offered and made solely at the T-24 hours mark, so long as all elites that put in e500 requests are accommodated first. TOD offers can still be done on a "whatever the pax are willing to pay basis," including amounts lower than what the e500s would cost to purchase.

My buddy and my domestic UPG rates (incl confirmed and CPUs) have gone from 80% down to 30% or so. Probably the most salient reason AA is now our "go-to" carrier, where over the last 4 months we're at 95% UPG (and ALL of those on CPUs ... to/from SFO!)

On E500s could you upgrade a friend/family member??? and could you buy them (if needed) ??

UA offered 4 e500s for purchase for $200 if you were elite, or $325 for a non-elite.

IIRC, the passenger had to be on the same PNR as the elite to be sponsored. If not, then they would have to buy their own upgrades.

Apparently, you could upgrade one person not on your res.

CPUs... I doubt very much your going to see any ex-CO flyers say that e500's are better including this ex-CO flyer.

My upgrade rate as a 1k has been very good this year.

Given that DL does comp upgrades and I'll be willing to bet if US/AA merge that will turn into a comp upgrade program (US already does this), UA won't even consider going backwards.

And I'd rather sit in front. E+ isn't bad on a CR7, but its tough to beat 2A. It would still be unbalanced based on the 6 per 10k miles flown, those of us who are segment fliers it isn't particularly enticing. Since it seems that those of you who want e500s wouldn't use them on shorter flights, but I wouldn't really earn enough to use them on the longer flights. Heck I'm still sitting on two RPUs for this year.

There's no doubt segment flyers didn't reap the number of e500s that TCON or long haul flyers did, but , since their usage was predicated on miles flown, you were still getting the same ratio of upgradable flight miles.




For numberous reason e500s are not going happen especially with RDM conversion.

I agree, but this seemed to be a hypothetical discussion.

Makes sense, but honestly, if UA goes back to the e500s, there are no guarantees they will let you convert those into miles. Is it worth giving up the CPU program with the risk they might reduce the number of e500s they hand out [8x per 25K], might not be convertible into miles, etc?

UA decided to talk away the mile conversion except for those who were grandfathered in, and even those pax could lose the grandfathering if they failed to maintain status for a year.

But you're right, the program as it was at UA is not coming back.... in any form.

That doesn't take away from my belief it was a superior system.

That doesn't take away from my belief it was a superior system.

That is the key here :( I do believe that the e500 days were better for everyone than the previous UDU and the current CPU process.

What triggered my blabbering was the way some people chiming about why UA should revert from CPU to e500s and the poll used forward looking words such as would and prefer. As if we are discussing if UA should adopt the e500 scheme or keep the CPU program.

The gist of my posts was that if UA goes to the e500 program they definitely will water it down significantly and I guarantee that many posters who supports bringing back the e500 scheme will complain and most likely regret supporting the re-implementation of the e500s. Upgrade rates will not be even close to what it was in the old e-500 days, YBM upgrades will still be here, monetization of the F cabin will remain, RPUs/GPUs will still trump e-500s, the rate of e500s earned or can be earned will not be as good, etc.

We are better off, much better, with the current CPU than a revived diluted e-500 program.

I miss e500s and would definitely take them over UDU anytime. I am more than willing to pay up to use certs on longer flights which would give UA more revenue and keep the highest status members in first class. I also liked the control e500s gave me in that I could choose to upgrade longer flights (ORD-SFO) and withdraw from upgrade consideration on routes I could care less about first class (ORD-STL).

I love this board..most people on here who say they would pay for ecerts are the same ones who will not pay 99.99 to upgrade at check in!

Also...anyone who thinks this conversation is comparing apples to apples is wrong. Switch to ecerts and you will be pissed off since you bought or flew to earn them and still cannot upgrade!

I love this board..most people on here who say they would pay for ecerts are the same ones who will not pay 99.99 to upgrade at check in!

Also...anyone who thinks this conversation is comparing apples to apples is wrong. Switch to ecerts and you will be pissed off since you bought or flew to earn them and still cannot upgrade!

Who said they would pay for ecerts? The prices were simply listed if I read it correctly.

The e500 scheme is not coming back and golfingboy is correct when in his assessment that, if it did return, it would be a useless watered down version akin to being served a domestic rice based beer when you ordered Blanton's Bourbon.

The program was great when you knew how to use it to your advantage. More than simply targeting the flights that were important to you to upgrade there was the loophole that allowed for 1 e500 to be used on a TCON MR if you played it right. ;)

On UDUStats.com, I see that even 2Ps are upgraded 48% of the time. Under the old system, you'd get upgraded ~25% of the time if you don't buy add'l e500's.

So UDU seems to be better for everyone, unless there is a selection bias on UDUStats.com. If there is, can anyone guess a more accurate %?

Please educate an AA flyer thinking of making the switch to UA Plat (flying from a UA hub).

Please educate an AA flyer thinking of making the switch to UA Plat (flying from a UA hub).The problem with UDUs (and EUAs from the pre-merger world) is they serve to socialize the upgrade process.

With 500's (be it on UA or AA) the membership had to actively opt in to request the upgrade, and to a certain degree, manage their upgrades (except of course EXPs who had unlimited 500's, but still had to request the upgrade(s).)

As a result, members -or at least those who cared enough to learn the system- could be more strategic about which upgrade to gun for and use the appropriate tool (500s, CR1s, SWUs, eVIPs, etc.) and free from the competition of having those who did not care to learn the system automatically "opted in" to the upgrade pool.

Simply put, a (more) complex benefits those who take the time to learn it at the expense of those who do not. This was the old UA system and the current AA system.

On UDUStats.com, I see that even 2Ps are upgraded 48% of the time. Under the old system, you'd get upgraded ~25% of the time if you don't buy add'l e500's.

So UDU seems to be better for everyone, unless there is a selection bias on UDUStats.com. If there is, can anyone guess a more accurate %?

Please educate an AA flyer thinking of making the switch to UA Plat (flying from a UA hub).

Your basis is UDUstats? You might as well have an octopus choose which is better. A self-reporting site is not the basis of any reliable information.

I get upgraded on flights I'd never want to use an e500 for, but for flights that i really want to be upgraded on, I can't.

It's a double edged sword.

On UDUStats.com, I see that even 2Ps are upgraded 48% of the time. Under the old system, you'd get upgraded ~25% of the time if you don't buy add'l e500's.

So UDU seems to be better for everyone, unless there is a selection bias on UDUStats.com. If there is, can anyone guess a more accurate %?

Please educate an AA flyer thinking of making the switch to UA Plat (flying from a UA hub).

Many of those stats are from pre-3/3, so I would not rely on a 48% success rate.. Guessing it would be way less these days.

Personally believe the E500/UDU was pretty much a wash but UDU to the present system with YBM priority override has significantly changed the system. This is not to argue the YBM is good or bad but it has changed the dynamics.
I'd like to second this. A lot has been made of ToDs, but I think the combination of people naturally flying on YBM fares and getting the insta-upgrade along with the YB buyups for non-elites means there are two kinds of flights:
1. "Long" domestic flights where YBM is the only way to upgrade. I almost always try to apply a mileage upgrade and almost always fail on these btw. This I take to be indicative that F is full from YBM fliers plus RPU 1Ks.
2. "Short" domestic flights and spoke flying where UDU works fine.

Regarding e500s, what did the F cabin on leisure routes look like? Were there empies in F or was it filled with employee/pass fliers?

I will say e500 will make it fair for everyone
Fair = different

It will swing benefits a bit towards international fliers who will earn more e500s than they can burn and against domestic fliers who need to burn them to fly comfortably.

It will also swing benefits away from leisure-market and spoke fliers and towards hub-to-hub and business fliers.

It is also arguably bad for the short-haul people who qualify on segments.

If you consider this fair then you are correct.

The huge fault with UDUs is the fact that Fare Class trumps Loyalty (Elite status).:mad:
This kind of propagandistic statement is impossible to argue against because it is catchy and partially but not entirely true. As someone else said, it's only true that YBM + any elite leve trumps APEX fare + higher status.

If as a 1K EUHQVWSTLKG flyer you would like to wage war against the YB 1P and 2P fliers, you are welcome to it. Just leave me out of that fight. I think both are reasonable choices that have winners and losers.

If you don't know the system then it shouldn't be a surprise that there are no benefits, however.
This goes to the interesting question of the extent to which a company (UA) should make their benefits system complicated so that only those customers willing to play the game and understand the ins and outs benefit the most vs. try to make the system simple and have more evenly distributed benefits to both the informed and uninformed customer. It's like when a grocery store has to decide between having sales vs having coupons (or double coupon days).

I love UDUs. I'm upgraded more than three times as often with UDUs than I was with e500s.

udus if they worked like they did prior to 3/3

definitely UDUs ... as a mid-tier elite, i got way more upgrades than i had using those e500s