Travel with Children - Can toddler stay strapped in during take-off on Swiss?

I'm flying with my 1.5 year old from CHI to VIE soon on Swiss Airlines. I purchased a seat for her and will bring her car seat along. I see on the Swiss Blog (http://blog.swiss.com/2011/10/travelling-with-infants-and-children.html?showComment=1344520645691#c191392791 3846134996) that they want her OUT of the seat during take off and landing. This seems strange to me...aren't those the most dangerous times during a flight when the toddler really should be securely strapped in?
I know European airlines like those goofy loop belts that go around lap babies, but they are way less secure than a car seat.
Anyone have experience on Swiss? Wish I would have seen that blog entry before I booked with them. I might have choosen a different airline. I'm also flying VIE-IAD on Austrian. Hope they don't have the same policy.

Haven't purchased the car seat yet, but it will likely be a Britax/Romer Eclipse, Cosco Scenera or Diono Radian.

Yes, some European airlines have this weird rule. I know that a neighbor here was forced to do that on Air France. Another friend waited until the F/A took her jumpseat and than strapped her baby back in the car seat!

It's like making your child unsafe for take-off and landing. Absolutely no safety logic whatsoever.

Those belly belts are dangerous. They turn the baby into an airbag on forward impact. The airlines use them to prevent the baby from flying through the cabin and hurting someone else, not for any protection (which there isn't) for the child.

We purchased seats for our children and I purposely tried to fly U.S. companies. Lufthansa will also allow U.S. car seats and are generally more safety-conscience than other European companies.

Write them and point out the purposelessness of this rule. See if they haven't updated it and allow children to be safe. Don't call them (they can say anything over the phone). That way, you can print it out and show them if you run into problems on the flight (assuming you can keep your child in the car seat for take-off and landing).

Just as a side note for your own information. It's a myth that children have to suck for take-off and landing. If your baby's ears are healthy, s/he will be fine and you can keep her in the car seat. Especially important because I had purely breastfed babies, in car seats who didn't take pacis and there wasn't a peep from any of them!

Here we go again. Everybody got their popcorn out? :p

Yes, some European airlines have this weird rule. I know that a neighbor here was forced to do that on Air France. Another friend waited until the F/A took her jumpseat and than strapped her baby back in the car seat!

No, not SOME. Contrary to FAA Regulations, EASA Regulations require that the child be restrained, and the minimum restraint is the lap belt, but an approved car seat is also permitted at the airline's discretion. Unlike the FAA, any EU approved seat is usually permitted, though an airline (as the case with German airlines) may publish a more restrictive list.

AF permit the use of approved car seats. If your friend's car seat was an approved one (unlikely if from the US), then the FA was wrong.


It's like making your child unsafe for take-off and landing. Absolutely no safety logic whatsoever.

Here we go again. Chances of survivable crash on take-off (as opposed to a non-survivable crash, NOT the chance of just a crash).

Chance of a crash (during any phase of flight) is between 8 and 11 million to one. Chance of surviving a crash is around 33% anyway. Now reduce this to only on takeoff and landing, vary it for where you are sitting in the plane, the type of plane, the point of impact and a host of other factors and now we are looking at a very very large number as being the odds that you would be in a survivable crash regardless of restraint method. More people die every year

Those belly belts are dangerous.

Based on? So a baby can fall out of a 2, 3, 4 or even 5 story window and survive, but being in a survivable air crash with a lap belt will kill them?

They turn the baby into an airbag on forward impact. The airlines use them to prevent the baby from flying through the cabin and hurting someone else, not for any protection (which there isn't) for the child.

Funny that. Airbags protect face/head injuries, yet I don't hold my lap child in front off my face, so how does this work? G-forces are what kill you in a crash. Being a projectile just makes sure that if the crash G-forces didn't kill you, that the G-forces when you stop being a projectile (bulkhead, seat, passenger) will. The FAA however, does not agree and says that infant projectiles are more likely to survive a crash.


We purchased seats for our children and I purposely tried to fly U.S. companies. Lufthansa will also allow U.S. car seats and are generally more safety-conscience than other European companies.

Write them and point out the purposelessness of this rule. See if they haven't updated it and allow children to be safe. Don't call them (they can say anything over the phone). That way, you can print it out and show them if you run into problems on the flight (assuming you can keep your child in the car seat for take-off and landing).


Lufthansa will accept FAA and CAA approved child seats as well as the list of seats published on their website.

In the end, it comes down to this. It is all a waste of time and money. The number of worldwide aviation deaths per year already places this whole discussion into the realm of "should my baby wear a bee suit every time they leave their sealed room", since bee sting deaths annually worldwide are about the same as commercial aviation deaths.



Just as a side note for your own information. It's a myth that children have to suck for take-off and landing. If your baby's ears are healthy, s/he will be fine and you can keep her in the car seat. Especially important because I had purely breastfed babies, in car seats who didn't take pacis and there wasn't a peep from any of them!

No, they certainly do not have to, but it is a fact that it improves their ability to equalize the pressure. Ask any General Aviation pilot.

Yes, some European airlines have this weird rule. I know that a neighbor here was forced to do that on Air France. Another friend waited until the F/A took her jumpseat and than strapped her baby back in the car seat!

It's like making your child unsafe for take-off and landing. Absolutely no safety logic whatsoever.

Those belly belts are dangerous. They turn the baby into an airbag on forward impact. The airlines use them to prevent the baby from flying through the cabin and hurting someone else, not for any protection (which there isn't) for the child.

Oh my, here it goes again. :)

There is a safety logic in it, and it does provide some protection for the child. While it may or may not be as good as a car seat on board a plane or a CARES-type contraption, it certainly does provide some protection for the child against one of the more common types of causes of injuries in flight.

... and speaking of lap-child infants, they are better protected with a belt attachment to an adult's seatbelt than they would be in a car-seat in an aisle seat since things do fall out of the overhead bins and people and carts do stumble in the aisles such that an aisle-seated infant could get injured. [Not all airlines allow for car-seats and/or lap-child infants to occupy an aisle seat, but some do.]

... and the European standard of a belt attachment for lap-children is more protection than the US standard requirement for lap-children.

.... that all said, the risks in-flight are so slim as to pale in comparison to the risks of an infant walking or crawling on the ground in the child's own neighborhood or house.

and the European standard of a belt attachment for lap-children is more protection than the US standard requirement for lap-children.


No, that's not true. The reason the FAA bans them is because of the "air bag" theory. In forward impact, the adult, who weighs more, can slam down on top of the child. Not pretty! The CAA does not make any claim to any "protection" for child in a belly belt. They justify it solely because the child wont fly through the cabin. Yes, there are children who have survived flying through the cabin so that's why the FAA requires that children be LOOSE in their parents lap. If their parent slams down on top of them, they don't have a prayer, flying through the cabin (depending on how far, where and how hard) they at least have a chance.

... and speaking of lap-child infants, they are better protected with a belt attachment to an adult's seatbelt than they would be in a car-seat in an aisle seat since things do fall out of the overhead bins and people and carts do stumble in the aisles such that an aisle-seated infant could get injured. [Not all airlines allow for car-seats and/or lap-child infants to occupy an aisle seat, but some do.]

You don't even make sense! Please don't compare a life & death situation with the relative risk of having something fall out of a bin! People don't die of stuff falling out of bins!!!

It is all a waste of time and money. The number of worldwide aviation deaths per year already places this whole discussion into the realm of "should my baby wear a bee suit every time they leave their sealed room", since bee sting deaths annually worldwide are about the same as commercial aviation deaths.

Please don't judge people who fly safely with their children! If you want to fly with your kid perched on your lap, be my guest but please don't lecture or judge me because I don't choose to have my child be a flying projectile in the cabin! Crashes DO happen. If you want to justify saving money with statistics, go ahead but don't be so judgemental about responsible parenting decisions!

I didn't have the luxury of flying with my husband so I was alone with three children. There is also the very logical comfort argument. My children are BIG and close in age. Having a lap baby would have been a nightmare for 11 1/2 hours. Sorry if you think it's a "waste of money" but my sanity, and the comfort of those around me, has a price too!

It's also the safest way for your car seat to reach its destination. The chances of being in a car crash are much greater, as well as the chances of the airline breaking or losing your car seat. Then you have a lap baby in the car. No one argue that that's safe! Using it on board means it get safely to where you're going too, and you can use it right away and not wait four days for the baggage handlers to find it and send it to you.

No, they certainly do not have to, but it is a fact that it improves their ability to equalize the pressure. Ask any General Aviation pilot.

Why would I? Those are the wrong times anyway. A pilot will tell you that the pressurization starts when the door closes, not strictly on take-off. It also continues well into the air and going up is not usually a problem. In my 13 years flying, the few passengers who had problems didn't have them on landing. They had ear problems at the top of descent, which is about 40 minutes to an hour before landing. If you want to wake your child up and make him cry, that's actually the best way to help his ears!

If you dive, it's the same principal as when you come up from the bottom. If you start to equalize your ears as you approach the surface, you're ears will burst! You have to start at the bottom. Most passengers felt better at about 10,000ft. (3000m).

About people who are allergic to bee stings, no they don't stay home all the time but they usually take their epi pen with them. I wouldn't talk someone who is deathly allergic to something to not take their epi pen, arguing that there is little chance of a bee stinging them (or eating shellfish, peanuts, whatever). See the logic? Slim chances doesn't mean doing something simple and obvious as a precaution.

and the European standard of a belt attachment for lap-children is more protection than the US standard requirement for lap-children.


No, that's not true.

What I stated is true. The US does not require lap child infants to be secured by anything more than a parental/guardian clutch, if even that, during even take-off, landing, or any time when the seatbelt sign is on. The European standard is the American requirement plus an artificial restraint.

The rest of the above post's response to my post may get addressed later.

Here we go again. Everybody got their popcorn out? :p



No, not SOME. Contrary to FAA Regulations, EASA Regulations require that the child be restrained, and the minimum restraint is the lap belt, but an approved car seat is also permitted at the airline's discretion. Unlike the FAA, any EU approved seat is usually permitted, though an airline (as the case with German airlines) may publish a more restrictive list.

AF permit the use of approved car seats. If your friend's car seat was an approved one (unlikely if from the US), then the FA was wrong.



Here we go again. Chances of survivable crash on take-off (as opposed to a non-survivable crash, NOT the chance of just a crash).

Chance of a crash (during any phase of flight) is between 8 and 11 million to one. Chance of surviving a crash is around 33% anyway. Now reduce this to only on takeoff and landing, vary it for where you are sitting in the plane, the type of plane, the point of impact and a host of other factors and now we are looking at a very very large number as being the odds that you would be in a survivable crash regardless of restraint method. More people die every year



Based on? So a baby can fall out of a 2, 3, 4 or even 5 story window and survive, but being in a survivable air crash with a lap belt will kill them?



Funny that. Airbags protect face/head injuries, yet I don't hold my lap child in front off my face, so how does this work? G-forces are what kill you in a crash. Being a projectile just makes sure that if the crash G-forces didn't kill you, that the G-forces when you stop being a projectile (bulkhead, seat, passenger) will. The FAA however, does not agree and says that infant projectiles are more likely to survive a crash.





Lufthansa will accept FAA and CAA approved child seats as well as the list of seats published on their website.

In the end, it comes down to this. It is all a waste of time and money. The number of worldwide aviation deaths per year already places this whole discussion into the realm of "should my baby wear a bee suit every time they leave their sealed room", since bee sting deaths annually worldwide are about the same as commercial aviation deaths.





No, they certainly do not have to, but it is a fact that it improves their ability to equalize the pressure. Ask any General Aviation pilot.

<<< Bangs head against desk>>>>

I'm assuming you have very little knowledge about the physiology of infants.
They have very soft skulls with skull plates that moves around. The plates do not fuse together until later. Their spinal cords are very vulnerable and are mainly just cartiledge at this point. They do not harden and fuse until about age 4. That is why you can see toddlers sitting in what looks like extremely uncomfortable positions for lengthy periods of time. Plus their heads are huge and very heavy in relation to the rest of their bodies. That is why they have no control over their heads and unless you support it, it just flops around.

This means that those little noggins can get seriously hurt very easily. Shaking a baby is enough to cause severe, permanent brain damage. What amounts to minor whiplash for adults can lead to the severing of the spinal cord in infants. If an infant is restrained by just a lap belt, it's head will flop forward and then backwards in the event of a sudden stop (does not have to be a major event or a catastrophic accident) resulting in damage to the brain. This damage might not be immediately noticable.

In addition, the lap belt itself can cause serious abdominal injury. Again, they have tiny vulnerable bodies. It doesn't take much.


The whole point us car seat fanatics are trying to make is that we are not trying to save kids in the extremely rare cases where an airplane drops out of the sky. We are trying to save kids from preventable accidents.

I'm assuming you have very little knowledge about the physiology of infants.

Incorrect and irrelevant. My statement is a true statement and would remain a true statement coming from a physician or from a mentally handicapped person. Infants regularly survive g-force trauma incidents that would not be survivable by an adult, for the exact reasons you have stated.

We are trying to save kids from preventable accidents.

My point exactly, except I am playing the likelihood card. Which child that died in the last year, 5 years, 10 years are you trying to save? Please provide me even a hint of a commercial air travel related accident last year (or last 10 years), anywhere in the world, that would have been prevented by having a child in a car seat in a plane?

On the other hand, 655 people died in one year IN THE UK ALONE from falling down stairs. Did you remove all stairs from your house? Airports?

For the record, my children have never been in a car without a car seat and before the age of 2 flew in a chest harness/sling.

before the age of 2 flew in a chest harness/sling.

Do you mean a CARES harness?

Which by the way, getting back to the subject is an option for some people when flying with foreign companies. If your car seat is not allowed, some airlines will allow this. Of course it's not an option for smaller babies under the weight/height minimum.

Please provide me even a hint of a commercial air travel related accident last year (or last 10 years), anywhere in the world, that would have been prevented by having a child in a car seat in a plane?

There was an accident a few years ago where the only survivor was a baby in a car seat. It was a small plane accident in Canada (if you want to look it up). Remember too, saying this is a moot point. A lot of accident information is NOT released to the public out of respect for the families. Would you want it splashed all over the press that if your niece had been in a car seat, she would have survived a plane crash?

Also, there are so few commercial accidents that there isn't enough data to come to any conclusions. We know that 1. a parent can't hold a child in forward impact of the g-forces that happen on the runway and 2. the plane can go upside down and a child will stay strapped in. We don't need any accident data to back those facts up. Both have happened.

There are many, many smart reasons for buying a baby a seat and using the car seat on board. Safety, comfort and getting the car seat to the destination safely without checking it among them. It's not fanatical, over-the-top or whatever. Please don't be so judgemental. Do want works for you but don't be threatened because other parents make better safety decisions.

Like I said, are you going to tell someone with serious allergies that they should go out without their epi pen? Because the chances or eating a peanut or getting stung by a bee are so remote? No, that person knows that but it's a small gesture that could make a big impact on whether they make it or not, even if the possibility is slim of it ever happening.

I have friends who are waaaaay more careful about other things than I am. They don't allow their children on sleepovers, only give their children organic food, don't allow them to have a cell phone... I don't tell them they're fanatics or over-the-top. They can make very good arguements to support their parenting decisions. I don't do what they do and I'm not threatened nor judge them. For those of you who are new to parenting, be aware that this is an issue, that will change labels but will continue basically for the next two decades or more, whether it's to homeschool, go private, what your kids does or doesn't wear... It wont stop with babyhood!

So let's stop the debate. Back to the subject!

Please don't be so judgemental. Do want works for you but don't be threatened because other parents make better safety decisions.


Hmmmm.

I received email replies from both Swiss and Austrian specifically stating my daughter can stay strapped in her car seat for takeoff and landing as long as she is in the Cosco Scenera seat.^ Yes, I'll be printing those emails and putting them in my carry-on, for sure.
Seems like the rules depend on the car seat model, as others have suggested in this thread.

thanks for coming back and clarifying this :)

Bravo for contacting and clarifying this with them! Bravo for buying a seat for your child. Glad she'll fly safely.

I'd love to know which group you place parents who don't drive and so have never had a reason to own a car seat :rolleyes:

I'd love to know which group you place parents who don't drive and so have never had a reason to own a car seat :rolleyes:

If your child is never transported in a car, whether you drive or not, I am not sure why you would purchase a car seat.

If your child is never transported in a car, whether you drive or not, I am not sure why you would purchase a car seat.

Thats my view, i just wondered with all this 'belief' that the safest place for your infant/toddler when you fly is in their carseat, if you have no reason to own one, should you be made to feel that you should own one despite not having a use for it

Thats my view, i just wondered with all this 'belief' that the safest place for your infant/toddler when you fly is in their carseat, if you have no reason to own one, should you be made to feel that you should own one despite not having a use for it
Only you can control how you feel. I usually ignore posts/posters that I feel make no sense or that are unreasonable.

Thats my view, i just wondered with all this 'belief' that the safest place for your infant/toddler when you fly is in their carseat

It's not a "belief", it's a FACT. A toddler in a lap in forward thrust will fly through the cabin. A toddler in a car seat will stay in the seat if the plane does a barrel roll. The fact that air accidents are rare doesn't mean they don't happen.

Most parents who don't have cars still find they do end up buying a car seat, even if only for cab rides, vacations, etc. It's rare to get through babyhood in industrialized countries without riding in a car at some point and there are many reasonably priced car seats sold now.

Fortunately its not an issue i now have seeing as my daughter is well past babyhood, but i tended to fly British Airlines, as well you may know that a UK infant bucket seat cannot be used on an airline regardless because of the way it is secured even if i had been driving i couldn't have bought a car seat suited to both use in the UK and on an airline, although driving would have been pretty useless for travel as only now have I reached the age for hiring a car :)

It's not a "belief", it's a FACT. ...


Most parents who don't have cars still find they do end up buying a car seat, even if only for cab rides, vacations, etc. It's rare to get through babyhood in industrialized countries without riding in a car at some point and there are many reasonably priced car seats sold now.

Is that a 'belief' or a 'fact'?

I know many people around the world who live in cities, don't own a vehicle, and don't own a car seat for their child. That doesn't make them bad parents. There are parents on FT who don't own a car seat, and on this very thread as well. It doesn't make them bad parents either. And the rules re car seats are so varied that purchasing one for a holiday doesn't always make sense either.

That's great! They can put their child on their laps in cars and airplanes all they want. It's legal. No one said they were "bad parents". Your wording-not mine!!!

Back on the subject...

before the age of 2 flew in a chest harness/sling.

Do you mean a CARES harness?

No, I mean http://www.babybjorn.com/us/products/baby-carriers/


There was an accident a few years ago where the only survivor was a baby in a car seat. It was a small plane accident in Canada (if you want to look it up). Remember too, saying this is a moot point. A lot of accident information is NOT released to the public out of respect for the families. Would you want it splashed all over the press that if your niece had been in a car seat, she would have survived a plane crash?

Uh. Thanks for providing irrelevant information. I asked about commercial accidents and you tell me about GA.


Also, there are so few commercial accidents that there isn't enough data to come to any conclusions.

This doesn't appear to stop you though. Actually there is plenty of information. Chances of surviving a plane crash are actually quite low so any additional safety devices play only a minute role.


There are many, many smart reasons for buying a baby a seat and using the car seat on board. Safety, comfort and getting the car seat to the destination safely without checking it among them. It's not fanatical, over-the-top or whatever. Please don't be so judgemental. Do want works for you but don't be threatened because other parents make better safety decisions.

:confused:
Safety, not
Comfort, depends on the kid
Getting car seat...., ok

Judgemental? You want to fly with a car seat, go ahead. I didn't say not to. You want to profess to others that it is safety related I say wait a minute.

Like I said, are you going to tell someone with serious allergies that they should go out without their epi pen? Because the chances or eating a peanut or getting stung by a bee are so remote? No, that person [I]knows that but it's a small gesture that could make a big impact on whether they make it or not, even if the possibility is slim of it ever happening.

Not the same. People with allergies have a known condition and the liklihood of being stung or coming into contact with nuts is a give, being in a car accident is a given, being in a survivable plane crash is 100's of millions to one.

I don't tell them they're fanatics or over-the-top. They can make very good arguements to support their parenting decisions. I don't do what they do and I'm not threatened nor judge them.

I don't feel threatened and didn't say that you are a fanatic, but I do uphold that there is nothing to show that there is a safety or comfort factor involved. There are just rules.

Flying with a baby in a baby carrier is dangerous and against FAA rules. Also, a Bjorn (or "crotch dangler" as they're often called) is not a sling. Look up ring sling. Much more comfortable but all baby carriers have to be removed for take-off and landing so that the baby doesn't get crushed in an accident (has happened, don't have evidence, was told that in training).

Much, much more comfortable to have the baby in a car seat. Experience speaking. Also, the babies in car seats on my long haul flights were calmer and slept better. Fact.