Flying Blue (Air France, KLM, and Other Partners) - ongoing open jaw issues

I'm having continual problems booking flights along the lines of:

SOF-YYZ and then YUL-CDG

or

PRG-YYZ and then YYZ-CDG

For instance, right now, tried to book the following:

KL 1356/695 on Aug 16th
AF 347 on Aug 20th (or AC 414 and then AF 347)

...and on airfrance.cz (can't use airfrance.ca as it doesn't even recognize PRG as an origin), klm.com, orbitz.com, delta.com... they all throw up.

Ideas?

Simon

What do you mean by "throw up"?

And why don't you call them?

All of the websites produce an error.

And I did call them -- they had to call some special problem-solving pricing desk as they couldn't price either.

Still waiting...

I'm having continual problems booking flights along the lines of:

SOF-YYZ and then YUL-CDG

That's not open jaw. Open jaw is A-B, B-C or A-B, C-A. This one is A-B, C-D - two one-way flights.

I'm having continual problems booking flights along the lines of:

SOF-YYZ and then YUL-CDG

or

PRG-YYZ and then YYZ-CDG

...and on airfrance.cz (can't use airfrance.ca as it doesn't even recognize PRG as an origin), klm.com, orbitz.com, delta.com... they all throw up.

Hmmm.

I've regularly been successful at booking open-jaws tickets on KLM.com - although not for this routing.

A quick look at AF fare-rules for SOF-YYZ, PRG-YYZ and CDG-YYZ indicates that single and double open-jaws combinations are permitted (although there are some extra provisions on the CDG-YYZ fares, which I didn't quite understand).

AFAIK, both the AF and KL websites require you to use the country site of (or at least near to) the point of origin for your journey, so it makes sense that you have to use .cz, not .ca .

Using the "Return from / to a different destination" option on the Czech site on KLM.com, it will price up a departure open-jaws PRG-YYZ-CDG (although the only outbound options offered are with DL via JFK, not KL via AMS or AF via CDG). I haven't tried to complete a booking (obviously) so I don't know if it would go wrong later on in the process (where are you encountering an error?), and it only offers an expensive full-fare ticket.

Trying to force an outbound routing via AMS using the multi-city tool gives a "18.GEUP0008" error. From past experience, I think this basically means "the website can't find a fare in the system that will enable it to price your request"... Sometimes this means no such fares are available; other times fares may in fact be available, but the system can't work out to apply them.

UPDATE (after some more trial and error on KLM.com): it seems that ending in CDG on the return is the problem. Asking for a departure open-jaws PRG-YYZ-SOF, it seems to work, and offers (amongst others):
KL1356/KL695
AF351/AF2486
for a reasonable price.

That's not open jaw. Open jaw is A-B, B-C or A-B, C-A. This one is A-B, C-D - two one-way flights.

AFAIK, A-B, C-D can still be open-jaws (as long as certain criteria are met, to do with the distance between A-D and B-C, compared with the distance A-B and C-D). It's called a double open-jaws.

I've booked two such tickets in the past year, and both were priced on a "half-round trip basis", rather than as two one ways.

A-B, C-A = destination open-jaws (single open-jaws)
A-B, B-C = departure open-jaws (single open-jaws)
A-B, C-D = double open-jaws

In talking to Delta on the phone, they claim that AF/KL will not let them book this sort of itinerary with discounted business class. No matter what they do, even on PRG-YYZ-CDG, it forces into C/J as two one ways.

It's bizarre -- plugged this into orbitz or travelocity earlier, and everyone else (LH, BA, AA, AC, etc.) came up ~ $3000 r/t in business. Delta: $10,000.

In talking to Delta on the phone, they claim that AF/KL will not let them book this sort of itinerary with discounted business class. No matter what they do, even on PRG-YYZ-CDG, it forces into C/J as two one ways.

It's bizarre -- plugged this into orbitz or travelocity earlier, and everyone else (LH, BA, AA, AC, etc.) came up ~ $3000 r/t in business. Delta: $10,000

I hadn't realised you were trying to book in discounted Biz, rather than eco. However, it does seem that the problem is caused by the combinations rules for CDG-YYZ fares. (This is the fare that would normally be applied for the return half of PRG-YYZ-CDG, if it was priced on a "half round trip" basis - but it seems that for some reason, this fare will not allow itself to be combined with PRG-YYZ. I think it only allows combinations with other points in France...)

The Czech site of KLM.com will price up PRG-AMS-YYZ-CDG-PRG in ZFFCZ for ~80,000Kc, or PRG-AMS-YYZ-CDG-SOF in ZFFCZ/ZFFBG for ~78,000Kc. However, asking it for PRG-(NYC)-YYZ-CDG gives ~222,000Kc (~$10,900).

I am not really surprised of this outcome. As a rule of thumb, when booking intercontinental flights from Europe you often have (based on the situations I had to deal with):

- no problem in destination country, sometimes even the full IATA area is allowed for an open jaw
- open jaw with respect to origin: open jaw can be restricted with respect to country of origin, with special restrictions applying to AFKL hubs.

Of course, these rules make somewhat sense from an AFKL perspective, but it's not nice for you.

Maybe a solution for you would be to fly back to your origin via CDG (so having an open jaw only in the destination country) and discard your last segment? (For purposes of baggage collection you might need a stop-over in CDG on the inbound flight though.) Sometimes an alternative is also to fly to CDG via AMS because in this case you might not have the restrictions that can come with long-haul direct flights to a hub.

Before you try out more combinations, maybe it makes sense to read the details of the fare rules first?

In talking to Delta on the phone, they claim that AF/KL will not let them book this sort of itinerary with discounted business class. No matter what they do, even on PRG-YYZ-CDG, it forces into C/J as two one ways.

It's bizarre -- plugged this into orbitz or travelocity earlier, and everyone else (LH, BA, AA, AC, etc.) came up ~ $3000 r/t in business. Delta: $10,000.
Every carrier has its own rules for discounted business class fares. IME most of these on DL require simple RTs and other rules to make them less attractive to business travelers.

Hmmm.

I've regularly been successful at booking open-jaws tickets on KLM.com - although not for this routing.

A quick look at AF fare-rules for SOF-YYZ, PRG-YYZ and CDG-YYZ indicates that single and double open-jaws combinations are permitted (although there are some extra provisions on the CDG-YYZ fares, which I didn't quite understand).

AFAIK, both the AF and KL websites require you to use the country site of (or at least near to) the point of origin for your journey, so it makes sense that you have to use .cz, not .ca .

Using the "Return from / to a different destination" option on the Czech site on KLM.com, it will price up a departure open-jaws PRG-YYZ-CDG (although the only outbound options offered are with DL via JFK, not KL via AMS or AF via CDG). I haven't tried to complete a booking (obviously) so I don't know if it would go wrong later on in the process (where are you encountering an error?), and it only offers an expensive full-fare ticket.

Trying to force an outbound routing via AMS using the multi-city tool gives a "18.GEUP0008" error. From past experience, I think this basically means "the website can't find a fare in the system that will enable it to price your request"... Sometimes this means no such fares are available; other times fares may in fact be available, but the system can't work out to apply them.

UPDATE (after some more trial and error on KLM.com): it seems that ending in CDG on the return is the problem. Asking for a departure open-jaws PRG-YYZ-SOF, it seems to work, and offers (amongst others):
KL1356/KL695
AF351/AF2486
for a reasonable price.

I've come across the same error and I know for a fact that the inventory is available on my itinerary. The KLM website is kind of useless for open jaws---it simply doesn't work.
The AF website is better in that you can get the flight selection but it is throwing up when getting to the pricing stage.
The Delta agents in North America aren't much help unfortunately. So I would try the AF website and see if that works out.
In your experience are you better off talking to an AF or KLM agent in Europe?